This podcast is brought to you by BarrierBreak Solutions Private Limited and Score Foundation.
Hi and welcome to Eyeway Conversations. My name is George Abraham and today my guest is Dr. Meghna Verma, who began life as an ophthalmologist but today is a mental health professional. Welcome Meghna and my first question to you is how come the switch from being an ophthalmologist to a mental health professional.
I was working as an ophthalmologist in one of the premier institutes of this country and suffering with a degenerative eye condition retinitis pigmentosa, I suffer from retinitis pigmentosa, I always had this knowledge that my vision is gradually deteriorating and there would be a day when I would have to quit off ophthalmology completely. When my employers came to know about this, about my eye condition which I disclosed myself to them.
Yes.
And that time, I was in clinical practice. So I was doing my surgeries, I was doing my OPD. And when my eye condition was detected, I disclosed it to them myself, I think they themselves did not know how to react to it or where to put me, probably I might be the only unique case, they have ever come across me being an ophthalmologist and suffering from an eye disease.
Right.
So they figured out that one way to retain me would be to put me in a non clinical side. So they had put me in the administrative side of the hospital which was fine and to their credit, they encouraged me to do an MBA also. So I did an MBA from ISB. And went back to the hospital to take up an administrative role but I really used to miss the clinical side because clinical side really involves a lot of you know dealing with patients, seeing people, interacting with them. And that was the skill that I had worked for the last 10 to 12 years of my life. So switching to an administrative side was somehow it was very dissatisfying and I was looking out to do something clinical. When I put forward my request to my employers that okay, maybe not really clinical role, maybe a para clinical or a research role would be good for me, I would be more satisfied in a research role. But somehow, it didn't go down well or they didn't pay attention to it or whatever for like two three years I just kept on waiting for that to happen but it wasn't happening.
So basically you wanted to do something which was still linked with the eye and people.
Absolutely because I had worked in this field for almost 10 years by then.
Right.
And it was dear to me. It was not that I didn't enjoy my profession. I completely enjoyed the scientific and the clinical side of it.
So by the way, where did you do your medicine and your specialization in MS in Ophthalmology from?
So I'm from Mumbai, I'm basically from Mumbai and my MBBS was from KEM Hospital in Mumbai and MS was from JJ Hospital in Mumbai.
Right.
And fellowship it was in cornea which is a super speciality and it was from LV Prasad in Hyderabad.
Okay.
Yes but then when I could not find an avenue or a sympathetic or rather I should say, an empathetic employer, like who would still find value in all the education that I had and probably give me a role which fit me which I thought would fit me better. So I was kind of trying to approach a lot of people and try to put forward my case. In fact, whenever I would approach people also, a lot of people would advise me not to make it apparent on the CV itself or tell the would be employers about my condition. But I used to think that no, there is no point in hiding it. And over a period of time, because I would get this advice from everybody around me from friends and relatives over a period of time it slowly, somehow subconsciously I was kind of ashamed of it.
Yeah, in fact it's human tendency to hide weaknesses, isn't it?
Yes. And it was, though unintentional everybody, my bosses, my colleagues, my friends, everybody would try to kind of maybe in a good or with good intention itself but they would try and advise me not to, not to make it evident to people that I have this.
And little do they realize that you know, if they discover it could be quite a disaster, isn't it?
Absolutely and over a period of time, I started becoming very ashamed of it and like I would actually think of it as a weakness, like you know I'm a lesser person probably, like a lesser human being or something, a lesser doctor or lesser everything.
I think this was around the time that we bumped into each other.
Absolutely. So I think when I met you, I spoke to you like the entire day but I had not told you that I have a condition myself that I have. So I can still see even today, I have partial vision.
Right.
But it's not good enough for me to be independent, like at least to move around independently mobility.
Definitely not good enough to cut somebody's eye and remove the cornea.
Definitely not. Yeah so then when we bumped into each other and the first thing that that really struck me was that you were so independent like you hailed your own taxi, you came to the hospital all alone and then I asked you, is there anybody with you I think, then you said no, I travel all over the world alone. And I was like wow, that's something and then I thought that I should tell you, and then I told you about this.
I remember that car drive from the hospital to your house. Yes I remember that.
Yes. So then I told you that you know, I feel that I should still continue with in some way as a doctor and otherwise all those years of study, I don't feel I'm justifying it in my current role.
That's right.
And I feel highly dissatisfied and all that And then you told me examples of these doctors who lost their vision while they were in service and they still continued to be doctors.
Right.
So you gave me those examples and then suddenly it was like I never thought of it, like it's possible to do that, till then everybody around me, be it my employer or be it my own parents and or my husband and family basically, it was just something that we all assumed that it is not possible to continue as a doctor, since my vision is dropping.
Right.
So when you told me that information, it was suddenly like a new option, a new choice open to me and then I started slowly you know, kind of harboring that possibility and that dream in me somewhere, then you put me in touch with another doctor friend of ours.
You're talking about the doctor in Bangalore, the psychiatrist.
Yes, the psychiatrist and I thought that like it was so amazing and inspiring to talk to him that in spite of his low vision, he is fully functional clinically. He does everything which a sighted person does.
Yeah.
And then to me it was like, I mean if he can do it, why not me. It is a little late in my life probably to make a change or whatever but then I was so driven by that dream and that possibility that I finally approached him. I spoke to him, he was very encouraging, he in fact found an opportunity and a course for me in CMC Vellore...
Right.
...which I could do and then I enrolled into the course. The teachers and the staff in CMC Vellore were extremely supportive.
You went to Vellore?
Yes, I went to Vellore for the program, it was over a period of one year.
Right.
And the staff and the teachers there were so supportive, they are still supportive, in fact like, even today if I have a difficult case, I reach out to them and they respond immediately. So I mean it was such a humbling experience like that was an area where I was not made to feel like a lesser doctor or a lesser human being ever.
Right.
And then I suddenly thought that probably it was my calling for and people who go through any chronic disease, not just blindness, any chronic disease, there are a lot of mental issues involved, there is a lot of depression and anxiety involved.
Yes.
With any disease and I thought probably it's my calling because I have gone through that myself, maybe I could do a little bit to kind of treat and elevate the kind of mental turmoil anybody with a disease or chronic pain suffers from, so and I think that is my calling snd that is my passion today. So that is how the transition from ophthalmology to mental health happened.
And so once you qualify to be a mental health professional, did you work with somebody else to kind of gain some kind of hands on experience or you started your own setup?
So I worked for after completing the course, I completed the course in 2019. After that for around six months, I worked with a with a doctor here in Hyderabad.
Yes.
And again the psychiatry in Bangalore NIMHANS, our friend he was so kind that he arranged for a visit to NIMHANS, so that I could go and and learn at the, again the premier institute for mental health in this country.
Right.
Unfortunately, it was scheduled for March- April in 2020 and that is when COVID happened. But I'm really hopeful that once the situation is better, I would go to NIMHANS. That's another dream of mine that I would be able to go to NIMHANS and probably do an observership with the best of the psychiatrist in this country.
But you still have a kind of a psychiatry practice or a mental health practise going on right now.
Absolutely. So I've started a psychiatry practice here in a hospital in Hyderabad. And I am getting very good response and reviews and again, maybe because I feel that maybe it was my calling that is why I feel that and it's almost like a new chance to me. So I really want to do it justice, to the chance that has been given to me again, to get into clinical practice. So I am really passionate about it and I really want to do it justice to my patients who come to me and yeah, I mean it's COVID times and there is a lot of mental health issues happening around so probably it's the need of the hour too.
Yeah, I believe so because COVID is going to throw up a lot of mental health issues, people into despair, depression, people have lost their jobs, people have been have to seriously change the course of their lives. So I think the professionals like you would be much in demand.
Yes and that was the vision of CMC Vellore actually. So they are training doctors MBBS doctors to become mental health professionals because we feel that the need of psychiatrist is so high in this country. There are very few psychiatrist in the country and the ones who get trained well like from AIIMS, NIMHANS and CMC Velllore most of them go out of the country because they get better paid in US or Australia or Canada. They leave the country, the few who stay back in India are so overloaded with work, they're probably not able to do justice like if you're seeing like 100 patients a day, you're not able to do justice to all of them.
The another question which comes from what you just said, you have transitioned from being an ophthalmologist to being a psychiatrist or a mental health professional, through your new fresh courses that you did, the training that you undertook in Vellore and so on. But to operate as a visually impaired person, did you have to pick up any additional skills?
Yes. So I still have to pick up a lot of skills. I know you also keep on encouraging me to do that. But yes, the major transition that I have made is that now I rely more on VoiceOver and to voice messaging or reading texts in VoiceOver rather than reading it visually. And trust me it's much more, in fact it's much more efficient then a lot of sighted people do it.
You are talking about you use VoiceOver on an iPhone and you use NVDA, or JAWS on your laptop or computer.
Yes and like again, the psychiatrist friend of mine had told me that, in fact in NIMHANS, he's the person who is made to in fact he's given the maximum work to write the notes or take the take down notes during rounds and all that because his speed is the maximum compared to even sighted people, even sighted doctors, his speed is so fast, his typing speed is like 90 words per minute and things like that. So in fact, I feel that sometimes these skills actually make you more efficient, it's just that we feel that these are the skills which are meant only for the visually disabled.
And when when patients meet you face to face meaning do you see any kind of strange responses?
So again, I find that in fact so a couple of patients asked me that... So when I'm walking slowly a couple of patients do ask me that have you hurt yourself in the leg or something.
Right.
Then I tell them no, actually I have low vision. And in fact, a lot of patients with mental illnesses like anxiety and depression if appropriate and if in the context, if I give them my example and of the choices that I made and the transition that I made, I think a lot of people actually find it very comforting.
It's an asset that you have.
Yeah so I think especially a lot of people find it like an, like acting from a position of therapist, people find it as an asset or a real life qualification rather than just a degree or anything. So I actually find it in as an asset now.
So you have a degree and you also have a life experience to share.
Absolutely and then it looks more genuine in fact because you have gone through it yourself. When you say that, you know I went through anxiety, depression myself and this is how I came out of it, people find it more genuine compared to somebody just reading out of the textbook or prescribing medicines.
So one more question like you know, you live in an environment or I'm talking about your family environment where people are kind of over protective people kind of all the time waiting to do something for you and keeping you out of activities which they think that would be harmful to you.
Yes.
How do you keep your spirit up? Do you have any social support network or something that you tap into on a regular basis?
Absolutely. So again, you and Dr. Sharat they put me in touch with a couple of visually impaired people in Hyderabad and they are all people who are professionally and personally very successful people. So they are also people I look up to and over a period of time we formed a circle, we meet each other at least before COVID we used to meet regularly also. So we call up you each other and it's a group that stands up for me, I feel. So whenever I have any issues, I just bounce it off them and I know that they will understand or they have overcome that themselves. So whatever comes from them is like completely, they understand and they are completely empathetic. So like I told you like my family was not really in favor of me making the transition to psychiatry and just telling them that like Dr. Sharat is there, and he is one of the successful people in NIMHANS and that was enough for them to get convinced. I think a lot of sighted people or the family and friends of somebody who's going through disease actually don't know like they don't know how to react, how to handhold, how to support. I think it just comes naturally to them to be you know, to be overprotective and say better not do right. I mean, why put yourself through those through that trouble of going out and and doing something.
Right.
So and I think most of my friends like at least in Hyderabad the circle that I was talking about, they also went through similar things when their blindness started off. I think it's very natural for some of the families to be over protective.
Your son, he's six now so you must be having interesting responses from him.
So I remember maybe a year back or maybe even earlier than that maybe he was four and then he was like, "Mama aapko kyu nehi dekhta hai" so I was like, "beta mujhe ek disease ho gaye hai uske vaje se mujhe nehi dekhta hai" "bakiyo ki mama ko bhi nehi dekhta hai kya" I was like, "nehi beta bakiyo ki mama ko dekhta ha aapki mama special hai" so I think or there are times again, somewhere much younge like I was walking around the house and I hit myself by the corner of the table and it really hurt. And he was just sitting there and watching and then after that when I moved out he was just hitting the corner, punishing the table corner. So yeah, there are times but there are times when he again assumes, "aare mama aapko nehi dekhenga, aap rehne do". But then yeah, he helps me with gardening like just today morning, he was like, "mama yaha pe yeh sab yeh leaves pure sukh gaye hai. So he'll point out, "isme rose aageya hai aap dekhlo, yaha pe white rose aaya hai, yaha red rose aaya hai, yaha pe yeh problems hai, aap cut kardo ye leaves". So he guides me like he knows that here she will require some prompts and help and here it is better to tell her okay, let it be.
Children are beautiful actually, they organically respond to you, you know .
Yes.
So that's beautiful and so you know, outside your professional and your family life, what are your passions? What are the things that make you happy? What are the things that you were doing before you continue to do and there must be things that you were doing before but you are not able to now? Could you share some of them.
Yeah, so I think I always loved reading books and again, there was a transition period where maybe because of my low phase in life, the depression, I kind of was not reading at all. So from being a complete bibliophile to somehow I would not pick up or if I would pick up I would not finish a book and from there till today, I actually run book clubs. So in my own society, I kind of other enthusiastic book readers, I formed a group and kind of initiate those discussions and we have a very lively group around books.
Right.
So I think the reach again to audio books really helped and I love audiobooks actually. I think again, earlier maybe I used to think of it as a disadvantage, but it's actually an advantage because when you're listening to audiobooks, you can just keep on doing whatever, like household chores you're doing and you can still finish your book, whereas when you're reading a physical copy, you need to assign that time to that.
Right.
Yeah, so I think I quite enjoy the audiobooks because of the style of dialogue delivery or the music which is incorporated into it. So I'm completely enjoying audiobooks nowadays.
You read books from Audible, is it?
Yes, I read books from Audible, yes. And I remember, you had suggested Storytel and again, a couple of other friends have suggested Storytel I'm going to try it for sure and also, there are a lot of audiobooks on YouTube. So I kind of try and find stuff on YouTube as well, so yeah.
In conclusion, I wanted to ask you,how do you see your future, say in the next five to 10 years, what are your plans, what are your dreams, if any?
Yeah, I feel a lot of mental health and also a lot of chronic diseases, it's about this feeling of shame and stigma, a feeling of weakness, and people don't come out and talk about it in open and they don't seek help. And in my case, help just happened like you came across and then one step led to another and it happened but I never reached out to anybody to seek help. So in spite of support groups, in spite of professionals existing people just don't reach out. And it would be really my dream if I could kind of advocate or create systems or create an organization which could help in doing that. In the area of mental health especially and an area of people suffering with chronic diseases. So I think that would be my dream. Also on a personal front my dream would be to be able to do everything that I used to do as a sighted person, if it is like going out in parties and still feeling comfortable amongst sighted people or going to travel and being confident that you will be able to navigate the world alone if there is nobody along with you. So these are still issues which subconsciously I feel at some level I'm still a little scared about I think if that part can also completely go out of me that would be that would be realy like completely being feeling complete and feeling whole again so I think these are the two things that I have a professional and personal.
Meghna wonderful speaking with you , your life story is very heartwarming, inspiring, and it's a work in progress.
Thank you so much, George.
This podcast was brought to you by BarrierBreak Solutions Private Limited and Score Foundation.
