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Welcome back to mental health week on the We Are For Good podcast. We want you to feel cared for this week. So be sure to visit our full landing page with resources and more at we are for good.com/mental health. We're so glad you're here. Hey, I'm John. And I'm Becky. And this is the We Are For Good podcast.
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So let's get started. Yo, Becky, how's it going?
I am so excited to talk sabbaticals today. Buckle up, folks.
I know it's like we want to just create this space to take a breath. You know, we're here on Mental Health Week of the podcast. And as we were starting to plot out the episodes, our dear friend Abby Falik messaged us, and she's like, You have to talk to my friend DJ. He is really this go to source about sabbaticals because of his own personal life experience. But then he's like, created this movement. I'll call it a movement. It's not just an organization. It's really a movement behind this idea of how do we incorporate sabbaticals and really the thinking of that into our organizations and into our life and into our culture as a whole. And so it is a huge honor that DJ said yes to coming on the podcast. So we're delighted to have DJ Donna with us today. He is founder of the sabbatical project, which really exists to define explore and research sabbaticals, and he has an upcoming book called time off, well spent a sabbatical manifesto and if you know Becky and me, we love a good manifesto, and a third really close to us. It'll come out in 2023. But his work already has been featured in time and fastcompany, Wall Street Journal, you know, and that we're for good podcast, we'll go ahead and tack that. As of today. He has his MBA from Harvard Business School. And before that, he had co founded EFL global, which enabled over 2 billion in capital to underbanked businesses and individuals across 20 countries before being acquired. And I was listening to an interview with DJ and something that really struck me was just his idea about burnout, you know, and he described it, he talked about that he never knew burnout could really apply to a dream job. And I got to think as like a fellow founder of a company like knowing that you went through that I feel a kinship of like the intensity, but the love of what you're doing at the same time is going to be a really interesting story to unpack. So we want to talk to him today. He's also going to share about his sabbatical that he went on following that, and DJ walked 900 miles on pilgrimage in Shikoku, Japan, where in then he also casually just ran a poverty research lab at his alma mater of Notre Dame, outside of working in find him plotting how to be in the big outdoors. And so it is a huge delight to have you in our midst today. DJ, welcome to the podcast.
Thank you. Great to be here. I gotta send a less embarrassing bio. I feel like you just made me sound so awesome that I have to live up to
do that is your life. So I mean, we love story on this podcast, we want to hear a piece of yours like if you can just catch us up telling us about growing up and kind of what led you to being this guru. If that's the right word to say about sabbaticals because I know you're a big believer in it. So talk us through like what got you to this place?
Sure. I will say that I absolutely had zero intention to be a sabbatical person, a guru, anything like that. I think I had a, like an unnatural fear of midlife crises. I don't know if I you know, saw some movie when I was a kid where you got like, you know, the bald guy and the convertible. And for those of you have already Yeah. And for some reason, I was just I was nervous about that, you know. And so I felt like, I'm going to I'm going to skip this midlife crisis thing by doing exactly what I want to do and really going out. And, like I went to, I went to grad school with the intention to do something that made a positive impact on the world, to do something that was global and scale and to continue doing something entrepreneurial. And then, you know, I found exactly that. So, I was able to resist the temptations of applying for jobs and financing consulting, like a lot of my friends. And I met up with these professors from the Harvard Kennedy School, who were using access to finance to basically allow people to live up to their potential. So seeing you know, these are the structural barriers of borrowing money to grow your own business and and figure out how to tackle it using alternative data. And I think that issue is near and dear to my heart. Because growing up, you know, we were kind of in, you know, the tricky financial spots. My dad was a pilot and, you know, the airline industry is constantly going bankrupt and reorganizing and, and he was able, he was able to go from being a pilot to running, you know, and starting an Italian restaurant because the banks in the United States say like, okay, like, we see that your credit score is good. And, you know, you're not doing your your current job anymore, but we, we trust you and we believe in you, right. And so that was kind of like a seamless transition that was enabled by this developed financial system. So I didn't think I was gonna geek out on access to finance or banking, but I did. And you know, the the postscript to that was the burnout that led to my work on on sabbaticals.
I am just a huge believer in sabbaticals. And mostly because one of them changed my life. And I want to be, you know, really open about it to our community. If you listen to my interview last year, on mental health week, when I shared about my nervous breakdown story, I talk a lot about this 90 Day sabbatical that I ended up taking. And I have to tell you that I went into that sabbatical kicking and screaming feeling it was entirely antithetical to who I was, I felt like, I wasn't sure that it was fair to my co workers I did, I didn't think it was fair to my family. And it was like, in that moment that I was like, self care is as much a human right is anything. And I remember telling John, it wasn't for 30 days that I didn't feel myself stop buzzing. It wasn't until 30 days, I was like, Oh, my gosh, I am actually calm. I'm actually centered, and I wasn't doing anything in those 30 days, folks, I was like, sitting on a couch, and I was walking my dog outside and going on hikes and reading books. And I just want you to talk about this practice, because I think there is something to it. And if anyone needs, you know, a break in this lifetime and recentering it, it's the people who pour themselves, you know, completely into mission work. So talk about this transformative potential of sabbaticals. I mean, this exploration of recovery and in practice, and talk about your research that you've done, and some of your key findings is just kind of set the tone for this combo.
Totally. There's a lot to unpack there. But I think, you know, first of all, I'd say that your entry into sabbatical land is very common. So in our research, no, my personal experience is that we're not socialized. We don't know this story around taking time off. It's taking an extended leave before something horrible happens. Yeah. And so over two thirds of the folks that we interviewed had a negative external catalysts. So personal health event, mortality event of friends, family, relationship crisis, a negative word crisis. So we're like, just start out, that's normal. We're not good at addressing a problem before it becomes turned up to 11. Right. And I think the other thing, I don't know, did you call it a sabbatical?
I didn't I try. I called it short term disability. Yeah,
I was actually talking to someone that a consulting firm that will not be named, and they're there. They're kind of they have a sabbatical policy, and they're studying it, but also, they call these you know, FMLA leaves and short term disability, like hidden sabbaticals. Right. Because essentially, you're you ended up paying for that employee to be off anyway. And you have no advanced warning, usually for it. And so is it better to say, hey, we have this policy, and there's a light at the end of the tunnel? And, you know, we'll give you benefits? Or is it better to just let people burn out and have to take disability or leave the company before they would have or just not perform well, and just be disengaged at work? So, you know, I when I talk to business owners about this, you know, and and nonprofit owners and investors and, and donors, it's, I don't think it's an either or I think it's a win, right? I think it's when someone needs a break. And I want to get to the point where it's not fixing a problem, it's actually having a positive experience, as opposed to like trying to heal yourself, because that's not that's not fun spending 30 days, just getting back to baseline is not great, right?
I feel so seen. Thank you. A lot of people out there are feeling themselves in this and I and I think that you addressing just the elephant in the room of why do we have to wait until we're broken to do these things. Why can we not look for signs or put in practices that build this into our system? Because we know that we're going to get recharged from having a break from disconnecting. I mean, we were just talking before we hit play, and it's like we own a digital company. We're in the digital, you know, we're met all the time. And it's like, we need some distance from that all of us do at some point. So I love that start. Thank you.
Yeah, I mean, I think you probably need distance from it, just to be a human and to get back to baseline. But also, you know, running a company like this, I mean, y'all put out like three podcasts a week, right? Like, getting getting some some distance and separation from that, and some creative inspiration, I think is helpful, right, it's very easy to get in the groove. And it's difficult to find those kinds of instances of inspiration. We were just talking about, you know, traveling in Thailand, John, or me, going back to Japan, and going to places like that, as an American, I think you really go you're in another planet. And everything from crossing the street to looking at a map to trying to order food is like an intellectual stimulation. And so I think good things come from that. Well,
I think that, you know, pouring into y'alls work through the sabbatical project. I love that your mission is so out there in front of you to say we're working toward a world where we extended leave is the norm, not the exception. And to get there, we create evidence and tell stories about transformative impact, that sabbaticals have on both individuals and companies. So let's just put a sidebar for mental health. If you're listening, and you don't have a mission, that's that clear about what you're doing, what success looks like, and what you're doing to get there. Like, I love that as a funder, I could see exactly how to plug into that. So that's a total sidebar to Why are nonprofit professionals listening today. But your work? I mean, you have poured into the research, but I want to give you a chance to just storytel you're part of the sabbatical, like I mean, what did it look like? And for those, there's a new term, like maybe also cast vision for what it could look like kind of the gamut of what sabbaticals look like?
Absolutely, you know, the first thing I would say is listening to someone's sabbatical story is kind of like listening to their, you know, seeing their pictures from their vacation. So, you know, like, your mileage may vary. And I think what, what I had access to do at that point in my life is very different than what different people have access to do. And the point of my book is to talk about how I believe there's seven or eight kind of instances over the course of a life where it makes sense to kind of step back and, and explore and reflect. And so this time, for me was one where I had never, you know, I was 33 ish, I had never taken more than 10 days off in a row since, like, I don't know, high school or something. And, and I was just burnt out, you know, I was burnt out from this job, you know, as you said, Becky, this dream job, that if you put all of the pieces in place that you think would make you happy, and then you eventually are no longer happy and satisfied. That's a disorienting position, because you're like, Well, if this doesn't do it, will anything do it, you can easily kind of spin off into, into a vortex. And so you know, I didn't know I didn't know anyone who had taken a sabbatical, I didn't have that terminology. I didn't really know anyone who said they were burnt out, I think one of the gifts from the last few years is that it's brought this conversation around burnout to the fore, unfortunately. And so I was fortunate to, you know, started this company, I have have a couple co founders who you both could see my kind of path and my energy change. And then also we could make changes to the organization to service that right. So y'all are in a position now I'm assuming where a lot of the organization depends on you being there and in the seat. And I think a sabbatical is not available to everybody at any time. But having that be on the roadmap so that in five years or something you are able to step back, I think should be a busy business school, just a sidebar. And, and so yeah, I didn't know what to do it, you know, the time that I could leave kept being pushed out, because there's always something that to do, and I was the best person to do it. And finally, just you know, I was officiating a wedding of a friend from New Zealand. And that kind of got me to New Zealand. And then the one thing I had on my map that I wanted to do was this, this pilgrimage in Japan. And so you visit these walk to these ADA temples around this rural island in Japan. And I'd done part of the Camino de Santiago in Spain. I grew up religious. And so I've always been on this kind of search. And I was like, you know, I want to really investigate this practice a little bit deeper, and meditation and Buddhism. And so I felt it was a time to investigate something that was important instead of urgent, and that was kind of, you know, going going inward. And we have three archetypes of sabbatical takers, which we can talk about later, but I was kind of in the seeker seeker mode. So I came back and decided that I should step back from the business like I wanted it to feel right tend to be the right position in my life, but it wasn't. And I took that time in my head, you know, walking for six weeks to kind of come to terms with that. And yes, you stepped back. And we can talk about the other stuff later. But that's that's the basic, you know, walking for six weeks sounded like a great idea at the time. I can't imagine doing it right now.
prioritizing the important over the urgent, I'm like, man just need to sit with that, you know, because when you're maxed out, those things never happen. You know, you're always putting out fires and life and work and all the things. So that's what a centering way to put up.
I just want to ask you this question. Like, what What did that feel like? When walking? And and I'm, I'm trying to transport myself there, DJ, I'm like, What were those sounds? What was going on in your head? What was going on in your body? What was what was manifesting? What was clearing? Like, I'm just so curious about what that experience was like for you.
You know, I think about it as an experiential lesson. So someone could have said to me, Hey, DJ, you're super hard charging, you never take breaks, you're like, you know, like, I should have gone and sat on the beach for two weeks and sipped coconuts, right. And instead, I went directly to like a, like a hundreds of miles walking by myself in a foreign country that I didn't speak the language. So amazing. And so the experiential lesson came into play where I was, I am in pretty good shape, kind of adventury, rock climbing kind of guy. And my feet were completely decimated, like I had to go to the hot like, the person I was staying with, you know, at one point along the trip, she was like, we're going to, we're going to the hospital. And so I had to like deal with that were a very slow motion, chill activity, walking, I didn't have a million pounds on my back. Just you do it for nine hours a day, and your body's just not used to. And so, you know, that was humbling. And I think the other experiential lesson was about three quarters of the way around. I did like a little like, put my bag down for the first time and took a ferry over to Hiroshima, and was just kind of like reflecting. And that's a pretty serious place for a lot of reflections as an American, and I realized that I was turbo going around this, this island that was going super quickly passing people. And I didn't have a reason I didn't have a finished date. And so what was I doing that for? Like, was it a competition? You know, like, Why was I so focused on the end instead of the day to day. And I think anyone could have told me that about myself. But I had to see it for myself. And it allowed me to take that last quarter of the pandemic, a bit differently in a way that I think was very informative about the next steps in my life. Wow. Yeah.
I mean, such an incredible part of your story. I just wonder like, what did what was the transition back? I mean, or maybe that's the tail end of it. But what was it like coming back and leading this incredible project with Notre Dame and kind of like assimilating back being changed? Knowing you went to rebuild kind of life differently? What does that look like?
You know, I think you you do kind of assimilate back into the culture, both country culture and also work culture very easily, unfortunately. Which is why I think it's so important to at least take some portion of your of your sabbatical and get out of the geographic area that you're in, ideally, to another country. Like, I know, this is not possible for most people. But if you're on sabbatical, and you're just kind of like not working, and all of your friends are working, your family's working. And the whole structure of the days and weeks and weekends are about working. It's very tough to really disentangle yourself from that and have your own journey. So you know, I fell back into it pretty quickly. But I had I had this lesson and experience to say, Okay, I'm no longer really concerned about this version of success. I am, I'm more confident about living the question about what I'm going to do as opposed to like, needing to find the answer right away. And the thing I want to do next is, like, kind of volunteer my time. And so I reached out to this, this poverty research lab in the Economics Department at Notre Dame that I had advised and said, Hey, y'all, like I'm gonna take the rest of the year off work. Is there anything I can do to be helpful? No, like, Well, yeah, you could like come and run this thing. And, you know, this
sounds easy for us.
And it's, you know, is this going from a couple of professors running this research lab and while doing their other three jobs contemporaneously? To kind of professionalizing and getting a have a full time Executive Director and you know, for all the for all the other employees of that organization enabling them to, like have proper management and like full attention and all that stuff. So, so yeah, so I spent a fair amount of time at Notre Dame and, you know, hired an amazing person who I think y'all should interview Heather Reynolds, who's now that the managing director of, of this lab, the lab for economic opportunities, she ran Catholic Charities Fort Worth for like, a decade and like, just did amazing stuff. And so I found that person and then also, you know, the synchronicity of I think, being off and, and focused on something, I found an academic who was interested in sponsoring the research on sabbaticals. So, you know, like, wanting, like looking back at my experience and saying, There's something more here than just a long vacation, right? Like it was, it was transformational in a way that it feels like, this should be in the playbook of everyone on the planet. But there's no information about it. You know, there's, there's pictures of people on vacation, but there's no like, what's going on when you take extended leave? Because everyone who's taken a sabbatical has taken vacation, right? But they're saying there's something about the extended duration of time. That's, that's very different.
I mean, your story is just such an interesting one. And I thank you for being such a pioneer and being so curious about it and digging into the data. Because I think a lot of people listening or is probably saying, I want to do this, I want to have a life changing experience on I just don't know how to do it. And talk to us a little bit about how we can see the forest for the trees as this is coming and plan ahead.
I think that there's two types of barriers, one are barriers that prevent people from taking a sabbatical to begin with. So most often here cost optics, like what will people think about me, and responsibilities? So you know, mortgages, kids, spouses, things like that. And so, you know, I think each of those, like, depending on which is the the toughest one for you, like, you can manage them in different ways, right? I think we're working on optics as an organization, so that the story of taking time off is is not like a one to hide. And, you know, even LinkedIn, for example, put like a career break feature this past year. And I think that that probably did more to normalize career breaks than like anything I could ever do. Because it's literally on your resume now, right? And people aren't afraid most people aren't afraid to talk about it. As far as the barriers to having a successful sabbatical, the things that I see most often, that I think are mistakes, and you learn from the mistakes, but you might not want to, like waste your sabbatical learning a lesson is this kind of separation is disconnection, right? If you're with a company do have you totally set up a firewall to be able to access your email or have people contact you. I was just working with someone that I'm coaching who had their sabbatical basically implode because there was no firewall, that people had his his bat phone number and just kind of calling him and, and, you know, there's some like, external events that happen that that can get can be tough. If you run a business, it can be almost impossible, right? So this disconnection, there's the duration piece, right? Back, you said that after a month, you're just starting to feel like yourself. So we've heard that a lot. Like, I think most commonly, it's six to eight weeks before people just start to feel like they're totally in their own zone again, unable to move forward. So it takes a long time. Like, is it is it ideal to take a year sabbatical or six month? Yes. Is it possible not for most people, but the further you can get north of of two months, you know, towards like, three, three to six, I think it gives you a more chance to deepen into that, that growth period. And so I think, you know, those are the the main things that I would that I would say are important for having a successful sabbatical.
Okay, so you kind of tease this DJ but walk us through the different archetypes of sabbaticals
yeah so you know, as I said, there's there's many different times in people's lives where they might be taking a sabbatical whether it's a gap year like, you know, Abby's organization, Global Citizen year or kind of Twilight career empty nest time, like the modern elder Academy, which is a place I just spent some time in Mexico chip Connelly's organization. And so what we've seen through all the interviews is that kind of three archetypes kind of settled out from that. And we think about them as the achiever, the Explorer and the seeker. So you know, the achiever is someone who's like, I want to go out and like write a book. Finally, I want to get the booked done, I'm going to do it. And then they are like, I have six months. And that's all I'm going to do. And they lock themselves in a cabin. The Explorer is someone that I think of my, my friend, Jeanette, who was like, I want to experience the world, I want to have that identity of being well traveled and and see what's out there. Like typically explores kind of your, your quintessential kind of gap year, right? It's like, you know, what is there out there? What can I learn from the world? And then the seeker, which I see is more kind of like you're exploring, but more internally, internally focused? You have a question about yourself that that you want to answer, whether it's, you know, spirituality, or like, really motivations and what you want to do differently in the next realm. And so we think about, like how what activities you do on your sabbatical really inform what archetype you are. So an achiever usually forgets to take care of themselves to do that, restore, and rest that you talked about, Becky, in the first
first part, so guilty of this, I've been grinning as we've been talking about it.
And I think what what happens is those folks typically come back and say, All right, like I accomplish this thing, or I'm further along in this, this steps of my accomplishment journey, but they usually reflect on how they were working. And they say, I'd like to work a little bit differently, might not be a huge change. But like, just, you've seen what it's like work a little bit differently. The Explorer is they're doing this rest and restore phase. And they're doing this Explore phase where could be exploring type of work that they want to do, right, like running tests, like, there was a someone who thought they wanted to work, you know, and retire in like an Eco Lodge. And so they're like, let's do an internship at an Eco Lodge. And then the seeker I think, adds this third component, which is, you know, practice. And so they're taking, like their explorations, and they're saying, like, Let's actually put this in the place. Let's try it. So do the pilgrimage to see if I actually should, you know, give up everything and become a Buddhist monk, I wouldn't have to shave my head, but you know, and you have that answer. And then you say, like, Okay, nope. What, what's next? So that's how I think about the archetypes and in the different types of activities on sabbatical.
I think it's really helpful that you broke those down, because I have to confess, ever since the beginning of our conversation where you talked about this epiphany you had about powering through this 900 miles and you're wondering why you're powering through it, I just have to tell you, like, this is a this is a weakness of mine. And I wonder if anybody out there can relate to it. I'm a goer, I'm a doer, I'm competitive. You know, I have that that achiever weighing on my Enneagram. And I like I do everything fast. You know, I drive fast, I talk fast. And I pee fast. Sorry, John. But it happens. It's like I'm moving to the next thing. And I think that the archetypes is really helpful, because I could see falling into a pitfall of achiever and not getting the peace and the stillness and the awakening, and being very intentional about picking the right lane, because I could see, I know that when someone like me goes into exploratory mode, you know, the creative expression that comes out of that, you know, for me, it's writing, you know, when I start to write and I start to ideate. And it's like, how are we making space for that, that's my joy. That's what I love to do. I don't have that baked into my life at any point. And that is such a missed opportunity. And so I throw that challenge out to the community, like, what brings you joy and light you up? Do you even have intentional time? Baked around that I think that's one of the things that I'm gonna be taking away from this conversation.
What I would say just double underline is, what brings you joy, and also the possibility that you don't remember anymore. Yeah, or it doesn't come off the top of your head. You know, my partner did a, like drawing class, right? It's called I think drawing from the light right side of the brain are drawing from the left side of the brain. And it's this like, five day, four hours a day. And you know, ever since then, this was last year, she spent over an hour a day drawing. And it was it was uncovering something that really has no like, tangible, like monetary accomplishment value, but was surfacing something from what you really love to do as a kid, and just bringing her joy. And so I think that your first intuition on what to do as an achiever might be like, I'm gonna get a yoga teacher certification. Like I'm going to become fluent in Spanish. And I think that like, that's fine. You'll learn something from doing that. But I think living the question a little bit, as I was saying before, is We'll help you actually get deeper and excavate some of those things that you've maybe been wanting to do that don't look like accomplishment.
So I want to ask you about like the business case for sabbaticals. Talk to us about your theory of change around them. Why is this not only good for our mental health? But why is it good for business?
You know, as a business owner, former business owner, myself, like, obviously, it's not ideal when someone leaves, you know, leaves your organization for a small period of time, whether it's parental leave, or you know, Disability Leave, or they just quit. And it's harder, as you know, the smaller company, you are, right, you have key personnel risk. But I also think, from the position of privilege that I was operating, which is the ability to, like take four months off, which almost no one can do. The only way that this becomes not just a privilege activity, and the way that it becomes equitable, is if companies and or governments are enabling people to take it, right, guaranteeing health insurance or a job when they return or a stipend or some portion of salary. And this happens in Australia, like every civil servant has access to that happens in Sweden, every citizen can take six months off to do an entrepreneurial thing. This is not inconceivable. But so the reason I set out to do this research was to say, alright, what's happening on the individual basis? And can people roll that up to what would happen to the organization if they had, you know, better engagement better, you know, tenure at the organization, more creativity? And then can I work with organizations to show them? And you know, and find out really, I mean, right, I had a hypothesis, but I know, it doesn't seem like I'm unbiased. But to find out really, if it's positive or net neutral for folks. And so I think the case for businesses is, number one, you know, we see this now with quiet quitting, whether you think that's real or not, or the great resignation, or the great reorientation, there's a million different terms. But indisputably, people are more kind of restless and feeling more empowered to leave and switch and prioritize other things over their job. And so that's been happening under the surface, right, like the who called burnout, a workplace crisis, before the pandemic, like levels of disengagement at work, were at record levels before the pandemic. And so it's about taking these folks inside of the organization, and getting them re inspired, getting them kind of like healed and energized, creative, and, and providing to them things that that the business can't I mean, even if you're working in nonprofits, like not everything you do is going to be inspiring, you're not going to live your, your like life potential through the job that you have. And I think a way to give people that sort of experience and also have them be good employees is to give them their own time to do with it, whatever they want to do. And I think benefits accrue to the business and the individual through doing that. So it's really about like, helping organizations, the individuals, you know, have positive experiences, and helping leaders to step back and say, What happens when I leave the organization? Does it totally fall apart? Does some things actually run better when I'm gone? How do the people feel that they're kind of empowered to step in and have a growth opportunity while I leave? So it's, it's this, like, 30,000 foot view that you just cannot see when you're when you're in the thick of it?
Yeah, and I feel like it's just like meeting this moment, you know, and I love that you have done the research to be able to come alongside and back it. Because, anecdotally, and just even hearing your story, you're like, of course, this would be healthy. I mean, no one would disagree. Of course, this would be healthy, to be able to have time and space, to be able to have that reflection. But then you just overlay that with like, we're all trying to create these missions that need the sustainability piece, and hiring and rehiring and trying to find people is just this endless cycle that cost so much money. And it's difficult to do, that taking care of our people really is probably our mission, at the end of the day for every mission. So why would this not be part of how we think about this? So I mean, could you lift an organization that does this? Well, and I know, y'all are advocating for this kind of policy work, and you'll celebrate when people do this, even if it's a small win, I see y'all champion even the small wins, which I appreciate. I think that's a really great posturing. But what's an organization that's doing this today? And how is it you know, what's the impact of that having?
Yeah, man, there's, there's so many that are doing it well, and there's so many more that are like really trying.
I don't know it'd be one of them. I won't Yeah. Good to have it. We're listening. Let's do it. Yeah,
I mean, well, look at look at Brene Brown, right. She just took a sabbatical for months and So I think you, I think you can and should design the organization so that you can step away, both to see what kind of goes wrong or doesn't work when you're gone. And also to like recharge the batteries. Easier said than done. But it's definitely not going to be done if you don't even make it a priority. Right? And so, like, when I talk to people about money, they, you know, talk about how sabbatical would be impossible for them or their organization. It's like, totally like right now. Absolutely. But what are you doing in like January 2026? Right, I have no idea, right? So, like, set out three months, then and plan for it. Until then save money, you know, structure the organization, bring on health, whatever. So, you know, one organization. Let me let me talk first about kind of nonprofit funders because there's actually a pretty rich history of philanthropists that encouraged and enabled nonprofit leaders to take sabbaticals. And it was pioneered by the Durfee foundation in LA. There's like McGregor and Detroit, there's Oh, two in San Francisco. There's, there's organizations all over the place. And I think the reason I like thinking about that kind of level up from the question you asked is that if the funders are saying this is important, like they obviously are footing the bill, if it doesn't work, right, and they're, they're scrambling to figure out who to who to plug in as the leader, and also the nonprofit leaders. I mean, to not lose the the point here, like people who care about their work are the reason that we have the definition of burnout, right? The first studies were about health care professionals and folks who are like really mission oriented. And so I think your audience is like probably the most likely to have this experience, and therefore, would benefit I think the most from these kinds of policies. You have these organizations like Durfee and McGregor, that will give nonprofit leaders time off because they've probably been standing this organization up for decades. And you would feel guilty as you're saying, Becky about like, what happens if I leave and like this feels self indulgent, or like, I'm just keeping a bunch of work on to other people. So you know, one of the people we interviewed for our research, Sharon Johnson from Detroit, she ran this organization runs this organization called the coalition on temporary shelter cots. And she took a year off, funded by the McGregor fund. And she did like she did some retreats, she did a coaching certification out on the West Coast. And, you know, the impact that that had was, she came back and said, Wait a minute, I think we're doing how we deliver services to people experiencing homelessness poorly. And we actually should be thinking more about how to career coach and how to like, coach these these individuals, in addition to providing rapid rehousing and all the stuff that's that's well known. And so she left the organization or the funders footed, this bill for her to be gone for a year. And she came back and the entire trajectory of the organization changed. So I think that I think those are good examples. And they've got tons of case studies on their websites. I'm so
geeked out about it. And I just have to, like, say this about John, because Abby Falik, who introduced us took a sabbatical. And she was very public about it online. And she walks you know, it took a little break from Global Citizen year. And when she came back, she said, I'm leaving. And we were so shocked and so proud of her for having that clarity of mind to know that her time there had kind of sunsetted and she had had this awakening. And John, I just remember your face, the day that we interviewed her. And after we got off the call, John had this like transcendent look on his face. And he was like, we just experienced something incredibly special. And I think people that are that in tune, to going up against the tide, to swimming upstream to listening to their body, to their mind to putting ego at the door are gonna have a different experience. And I just think anyone can learn from the abbeys, the Bernays, the whoever's of the world about how this can be not only life changing, but also life affirming of where you need to be in your life. So thank you for every single bit of that.
Now that I think I just picked up a couple of things from what you said that I hadn't really connected the dots on so I appreciate it, which is the first thing so I think Abby's story is very instructive, and she I had her over to my place we live like five miles away. So chapter after she was starting on sabbatical. And, and we got a chance to chat about it and you know, I think we were in similar places when we took our sabbaticals. And also, through leaving, she will, she will be able to have a bigger impact and a different impact and maybe more consistent to who she has grown into over time. And I think sometimes we need to do that, right? Like the, what we want for ourselves in the future no longer fits in that old box. And for me, it was, I saw access to finance as this tremendous way to impact change, or create impact. And over time, I realized that like, yes, it is, and I'm no longer as inspired by it. And I don't want to be, you know, banking conferences for the rest of my life. And so like, it's okay to change and grow. And to your point, Becky, you can't hear your own voice and do some archaeology on what was important to you what is emerging for you, unless you tune out those other voices and in the busyness in the den and the urgency. And so like, it's going to be impossible for someone like Abby to say, like, you know what, actually, I want to approach this in a very different way, while she's growing an organization that she has, you know, a bunch of kind of attachments to over time. But if you step away from that for a few months, you can start to see that there is difference in distance between you as an individual, and that thing that has taken up a lot of your identity over time. I don't think you can do it in any other way can't get it from like a weekend retreat or five minutes of meditation. Amen.
I mean, to just stay on this tangent for a minute, because I think the Evolve leadership that she displayed, and what this whole conversation is pointing to is that she had spent years cultivating leadership around her and empowering people around her to where the organization was ready for that to, at least from our purview of it. And I think it's not like you have to sign away on your vision that you were starting for, it's just you can approach it in a different way and have this influence that you're lifting. So I love this conversation. I feel like this is getting us all really centered. And I'm thinking that you know of the nonprofit professional that's listening today. Like really leaning into some advice. If you're feeling overworked, and underpaid, and all of these kinds of things that are converging on the sector right now, what's some advice that you would help somebody you know, in navigating this intersection of sabbaticals and life in the nonprofit land?
This is tough. Obviously, there's so many different experiences and people for whom I've met, my general advice is you have to surface this stuff, you can't be can't suffer in silence. And that can be difficult for people in different positions where, like, if they were to lose their position, it would not be great for them and, and put them down a wrong path. And so I think my general advice is that you have to surface this right, either to your manager or your leader to your board. I think, as I was saying, the silver lining of the pandemic is that this attitude is much more prevalent and common and understood now, where, you know, companies and investors kind of see that individuals have more power than I think they've had in a long time. And, you know, there's like an implicit or tacit threat around leaving, if if you aren't kind of taken care of as a human. And I think everybody had this collective reminder of humanity and the preciousness and frailty of life and things like that. So, in theory, in an ideal world, you surface those conversations, folks who say, like, Yeah, let's, let's like, make this work somehow. And then it works, right. So many of the sabbatical stories that I've heard are people who, like they get to the point where they're quitting, and then they tell their boss and I, like actually want you to take some time off. And by that time, things have broken, right, like, and so I would say, talk to folks, if you're a leader, you use resources at our website, the sabbatical. project.org. Look at those kinds of examples of nonprofit funders for sabbaticals to say like, Hey, listen, like, there's folks who have done this for 40 years at the Durfee foundation. Why? Why would that work for nonprofits? And what can we learn from from them? And, you know, the social proof aspect, like seeing that other people have done it, and then it's been fine, is kind of the core of our mission statement. I think that's a great way to persuade people. Like we are not the first folks to do this. There's many in our sector, you know, look at these case studies and kind of go from there.
Yeah, I think the lived experience and being able to point to other successes is always going to help improve that business case for why we need to do these things. But you know, I just think your stories are very powerful. I love how you see humanity and and the potential and so many people who can actually find themselves within this experience. And I'm wondering if there's a story A philanthropy or a story on this journey that has really stuck with you that you might share on the podcast today.
Yeah. And just to flag I want to, I want to get a chance to ask your question after this. I mean, I think from a philanthropy story perspective, you know, I view my career, which careers I think always make sense looking backwards, but you have to solve it going forward. So I'm going to tell a very, like neat and tidy story about my career, but it was never that intentional. It's kind of been about a commercializing social science research are using social science research to positively impact people's lives, right. And so whether it was from EFL, the credit scoring company, or Leo at Notre Dame, the lab for economic opportunities, or the sabbatical project, so I think Leo story is interesting, because they basically said, there's a lot of evidence based investments in development in the international context. You know, because folks like Gates Foundation, say, like, if we're gonna give this money, we want a randomized controlled trial to make sure that it's, it's going towards good stuff. But in in the US, historically, there has not been that that sort of rigorous evidence required. So you have all this money from the government and taxes going to organizations that there's hasn't been proof necessarily that what they're working on is working, or that it's the best approach. And so, you know, Chris Wilson, Wilson, she and Foundation gave Leo this like, really transformational gift to say, Alright, you've done a couple studies on interventions in the nonprofit space that are that are really transformational, like Catholic Charities, Fort Worth, did one where you're basically assigning a social worker slash coach to single mothers in community college just to help them graduate, like getting a degree from community college is like transformational. And folks, like income, lifetime earnings, like housing, security, things like that. But the graduation rates are very low. And, you know, instead of trying to solve some academic problem, or things like that, they just gave someone that could help various problems, like my child is sick. I need to like Uber back to get them take them from daycare and things like that, or I've been having these headaches. Oh, actually, it turns out that I needed glasses, right, just some, like another human to help you navigate through life. And so Chris Wilson saw that and said, like, let's, let's, let's scale this out a little bit and run some experiments. And that has kind of led to Leo, going from a couple of economists, publishing papers that are actually about doing good in the United States to, like an organization is now publishing dozens of papers and working with, you know, 100 nonprofits across the United States to help them understand what kind of good they're doing and to replicate it. So that's, you know, that that kind of message of what works is being spread across the country. So if that answers the question, but that's a customer
to you, Chris Wilson. Yeah. I mean, this evolved level of funder that is here for the answering the bigger questions.
So Johnson's, I haven't heard about a sabbatical you've taken and Becky, feel free to chime in. But what would y'all do if you could take four months off?
Oh, my gosh, easily leave the country. I, we love traveling as a family to just kind of like the meandering aspect and breaking up normal routines and just kind of not having a plan and just seeing where you end up. So there would be a lot of that, I would definitely lean into some of the seeker stuff that you're talking about. But I'd also love to just like chase a creative project that has nothing to do with a business idea, like how to make money or anything like that, but really just tied to just what would be creatively fulfilling. And maybe that's writing, or maybe it's drawing, because honestly, I love art, but I don't prioritize getting to actually do that. So you're making me sit over here like screaming at like, how do we create this policy? Like, maybe we need to have you walk us through the to point of like building this in, like, from a business perspective, because I want to make this true. And we control the levers here. So if we can't figure out how to do it, how can we really expect, you know, other people that would have more hands tied down to be able to do it
as as creators and you know, this this burgeoning, like, creator economy? If, if the whole system relies on you, then then you can never escape? Right? And so and I also think that this system relies on your ability to be creative, right? definitionally and your ability to find inspiration and to kind of shift and adapt over time, not just to like, be a computer and, you know, produce the same output all the time. So I agree but doesn't have to be this year. Right? The planet for 2026. And happy to check in with y'all.
Okay, DJ, this conversation is winding down, which is making me very sad because this has literally been the breath, you know, moment that we were really hoping for the exhale this conversation. So we want to ask you, what's your one good thing. It's how we round out the podcast, it could be a tip secret to success a mantra. But you're one good thing.
Obviously, you know, like life is too short to not take a sabbatical. It's a privilege, it can require a decade of planning. I've seen people literally plan for a decade, and save a little bit each year and, you know, figure out what age their kids are going to be and kind of piece it together. But it's in our studies, it's a peak life experience, which is up there with getting married, having kids and it's this thing that you can do intentionally yourself, or it can be kind of it can happen to you. Right. So I'd say you know, try to do it before you need it. I think that's the that's the big tip. And, you know, I think everything else stems from there. Like you're going to be your own best teacher once you get that time off. But this is a little bit a little bit on original, but that is my that was my good thing.
You are so on brand.
Wear sunscreen,
wear sunscreen, take a sabbatical. Stick. Okay, DJ people are definitely going to want to connect with you. They're gonna want to know more about your work and your journey. Where can they connect with you online? And where do you hang out on socials?
You can find us at the sabbatical. project.org I'm on LinkedIn. That's kind of my platform of choice. So you can you can hear us celebrate great companies, sabbatical policies, talk about individuals who've taken sabbaticals, sign up for newsletters, all that fun stuff. So I'm fighting the fight against like corporate corporate America and not allowing people to take time off on like death.
Please keep fighting for us. We
join you as a warrior. So thank you for coming over to this house. This has been an incredible conversation and just grateful to know you. Absolutely. Awesome.
Thank you for the opportunity. Great to meet you all.
Thanks for joining us for these powerful discussions about mental health. If you'd like to dig deeper, we're continuing the conversation in the we're for good community. Here. We'll double click on some of the topics and support each other and community. Come join us it's free. At We Are For Good community.com
