42 | Drarry Deep Dive: The Harry Edition 🐍 (Draco Malfoy/Harry Potter)

6:59PM Jun 5, 2023

Speakers:

Megs

Nathan

Intro Music: I Ship It by Not-Literally

Keywords:

harry

draco

love

literally

characters

hermione

wizarding world

people

episode

fun

feel

good

life

dumbledore

work

tropes

written

lived

grown

wizards

Hey there listener, fancy seeing you here. Look, sometimes due to the things we discuss on the pod, it might contain potentially triggering content. But the good news is you can always review the episode description for a full list of the warnings applicable to this episode. Oh, and just so you know, this episode is rated R for really filthy. It includes adult themes and explicit content. So if you're an adult, buckle up, gird your loins and prepare to flood the basement because we are going down with these ships.

You're on the canon ground, I'm up in crackship space. Let's start a shipping war. Don't care if I get hate. Don't like my pairings, well, then you can hit the bricks. This is my OTP I'll go down with this ship. I don't care! I ship it! I don't care! I ship it, I ship it!

Welcome back to Care of Magical Shippers, podcast, a Harry Potter ship culture, podcast. I am Nathan.

And I am Megs. And we're back with more Drarry like we promised.

See, we do occasionally keep our promises. We're on it today, I'm proud of

it makes me think when we were like, okay, at the end of episodes, we're going to talk about what we do next week. And then we realized we shuffled things around so often that we're like, Okay, we're gonna have to put this like thing at the end saying what it is. And then I reached a point that I'm like, I'm not even going to put that in. Because we don't know yet. I know, it's two weeks from now, but I don't know.

We don't plan are we thinking yet? There's no amount of full thought goes into any of these episodes. We're just like, chill, we should talk about Drarry We should do that. We haven't done that yet. And then a massive splurge of episodes is going to be hitting it. Yeah. And we don't even know quite how big that explosion of content is going to be. We just know that we're we're caught up in it right now. We're like trapped in the maelstrom. And we're bringing you along for the ride. So I'm excited. Because this week, we're going to be talking more about Harry right, because I know so I feel like we should do it like previously on Care of Magical shippers. Podcast talked a lot about Drake this week. So this week, we're gonna be deep diving into hairy, much like Draco wants to do. And so as we talk about that, I suppose the first thing that we should mention, is we kind of touched on this from Draco's perspective. But how do you reconcile being the hero of the wizarding world in that you know, you need to so you, you've hypothetically heard your prophecy, you know, neither can live while the other survives, you, you know that you need to have this face off, and that you've basically been being manipulated to get to this point, how do you go from that, and shouldering that kind of burden, to then also being a complicated human being with complicated human feelings about your complicated human crush? Who happens to be in sliver in a house that you've been conditioned through seven years to think Harper is the most evil well begotten wizards imaginable? And yet, what's happening between your loins can be a question.

Yeah, because a lot of times, like, it's, we play off the aspect of like, oh, when someone's mean to you, they obviously like you, you know, sort of thing when it's like, That's really bad. Like, that's not okay. If, if a if a boy is like, pushing you down, or anyone is pushing you down, or like, you know, like, just just being all around me, like, No, I'm like, if you like me, you like that's, I feel really like, No, I don't want that.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. As someone that was bullied a lot in secondary school, I can tell you that those guys were just being dicks. No, there's no two ways about that. There was nothing else going on? No. So when we codify that into characters, sometimes, it does make me go, it's a little bit of a squick. Because like we said in the last episode, because we spend so long building up this conflict, and it's a slow burn over the course of seven books. And we know that there's an epilogue where characters have grown. And, you know, Harry sees Drake come across the platform. And there's just this sort of semi awkward acknowledgement, right. There's a lot more that could potentially be going on in that moment. And I'm sure we'll get into it. But the point is, as I think we've been established a lot on this podcast before, you don't strictly need to be coming from a Canon background to appreciate these characters in fuller, rounder, richer contexts and people ultimately, I'm convinced that most people are, you know, they want to experience proxies for their own emotion in writing. So if you're feeling loved, you're going to want to read that in fanfiction if you're feeling angsty, you're going to want to read that and fanfiction. If you're feeling lusty, you're going to want to read that and fanfiction. And these characters can be a proxy for a wide spectrum of things. So I guess maybe we should begin by asking what is it that makes hurry a prime target for this sort of fanfiction in this of like, Yes, hurry, you could be a stand in for whatever I want to feel today.

I was trying to think of like, what tropes are the most common like because obviously, we'll read like a lot of Drarry will be from Harry's perspective, just because like you said, we read the books from Harry's perspective. So this is just like the sequel, more of Harry's perspective sort of thing and then runs into Draco and things happen. And but then, of course, it's different, obviously, if you're gonna write from Draco's perspective, but with Harry, I feel like it's oblivious. Harry is like a big thing. Like even through Harman it's common it is canon. Yeah, exactly. Like, it's just, he's just unaware of things like plenty of people have, like have argued, and it was realistic that like Harry might be on the spectrum somewhere as far as unable to read some, you know, certain emotions or having been stunted growing up as far as like how poorly he was probably nutritionally supported and things like that. Like, obviously, there's gonna be things that we can't look at Harry and be like, just because he's the boy who lived and he's the one who's supposed to save the wizarding world doesn't mean he has all the right answers. It doesn't mean Right. Yeah, that like and that I love in stories, too, like after the war ends when Harry people will either be like, Oh, you need to be Minister of Magic or like you're the Savior or whatever. And he's like, what about you just having this wand fight with the wizard makes me a proper candidate for like, a political position? Like what? What does that give me as far as like experience that I wouldn't be the person to do this and though I definitely like when Harry has that journey of realizing that he's a flawed human you know, like he's not perfect. Yes. And whereas like when we read through the books like his point of view, like there's a lot of like, especially like when things go bad between him and Ron there's just a lot of stubbornness at in Harry goes through is very stubborn, and a lot of things and his conflict with a lot of people like throughout the whole series. So there are definitely times where he does feel entitled that his opinion is the right opinion. Because people have you know, even though like we talked about how Harry even though he was put on a pedestal, he's not like super cocky, or he does it like there's definitely elements of him being like, Oh, I just happen to be good at Quidditch or, like, Oh, I'm, you know, happened to be a decent wizard or, like, good at defense or anything like that, but there is a part of him, there's always gonna be a part of him, that still was given the opportunity to also feel like he is better than you know, like, it's a different type of better than than Draco. You know what I mean? Like, it's just like, Oh, I'm famous. I never wanted to be famous, but he still makes choices and behaves in ways because he's, you know, famous.

I'm Harry, I'm so put upon I'm so fed up of being in Diagon Alley. Everyone's looking at Yeah, most Scott and it's too true. I'm gonna have to go to Florian folds excuse ice cream parlor, and he's gonna have to give me like six scoops of my favorite ice cream. And I'm gonna have to sit there and moan to him about how terrible it is to be famous because I'm famous Harry Potter. Everything happens to me

oh man, yeah, it's a there's a lot of opportunities for I just love flawed characters like when we talked about like Draco and even like Snape last episode, like Harry isn't perfect. Like even Hermione isn't perfect Ron is imperfect. There's a lot of things about even the quote unquote good you know light characters that have their issues because at least in this in, you know, from this aspect of how some of the characters were written like they were written pretty human, you know, like that they no one was necessarily written as like, besides I think Dumbledore like even though near the end, it was like clear that he was making questionable choices and wasn't putting like, I don't think that from this Stories perspective and how it was written. I think that it's more of an interpretation of the reader that it was that he isn't as good of a person as like people put on like, even at the end when Harry's like oh, I named you Alba Severus, the two bravest men I know when really it's like, okay, like Elvis didn't like, Yes, he was this great and powerful wizard, but obviously, he had his flaws and stuff too. So it's like, right, there's just a lot of opportunity for diving into complexities and characters. And so that's where I could see common ground being found like, especially between like Harry and Draco as if like, they had their own insecurities or feeling like they had to meet certain expectations of people and the pressure that that put on them, even though it was a different journey. Like, that's another reason why they can at least connect on that level of like, I had the expectations for my family, or even like feeling like I needed to be a part of, you know, the Death Eaters or this sort of, you know, platform versus like Harry being like, oh, I need to be that the good like, I'm supposed to be the boy who lived and take care of everybody and save everyone. And that's a lot of right, you know, pressure there to

beat this idea of the wizarding world. Yes, yeah. There is that there's that pressure there. And in that moment, when in the epilogue when he says to Albus, I named you Albus Severus, after the two bravest headmaster's of Hogwarts to the bravest men I knew. In that moment, I don't think that says very much about either Albus Dumbledore or Snape. I think that says a lot about Harry, and his willingness to love in spite of, you know, very, very obvious character flows. You know, he Harry hated Snape through much of the books. And I think it was because they both got off on to this really reactionary knee jerk path for each other. Whereas if they chosen to make different choices, this is where I kind of judge Snape a little bit more harshly, because he's a teacher. So he should, in my opinion, have been more more open to be like, hey, you know what, maybe I'm not going to be, you know, judging this child based off of my preconceptions of his father, just because they look similar. So, so that there's that, but that's a discussion for another time. My main point was that I think even after everything that Harry has been through, and he's been through a lot, there's no denying that, even if he does have to come up against some pretty heavy internalized narcissism and self importance, of course, when, like, even after all, that he's he's capable of loving, so intensely, but also, of course,

and forgiveness and that love, you know, like forgiving someone for

Exactly, yeah, absolutely. And we get to a point where postwar Harry no longer has a part of Voldemort living inside him, that that Horcrux has been destroyed. So if ever he were to have a complex, emotional feeling about anything, he can almost no longer blame this part of this little bit of evil that's been nestling inside of him. This is his Dao that he has to deal with. And I think it's highly probable that following on from the war, in dealing with the trauma that he asked to come face to face with, he's going to be like, Oh, well, this is mine now, and I have to own this. But I can't really go to Ron or Hermione, because they're going through the same thing. We were all so close through that whole, that entire episode, that I don't you know, that just reburning with them with that is going to retrigger them in a way. So he then has to go to somebody else. Someone who has parallels with him is maybe the same age, but one wasn't directly has silver eyes is really sexy in a so so Exactly. So that's maybe how I could see them getting together after the war is that is this acknowledgement that they were fighting on different sides. And for whatever reason, they both believed at the time that what they were doing was justified. But they're having to come to a more rational, more reasonable understanding of what the world looks like, as a grown up now. Now you've left school or whatever it happens to be. There isn't this black and white idea of this person is good, and this person is evil. We live in a world with a lot of shades of grey, and the question is, and this sort of goes right at the heart of whether you can ship Drarry as a concept. The question is is, can you see that being a place for the two of them to evolve alongside each other? Or are they very much still stuck in these patterns that they grew up in as children, and both have potential to be written about? And I think to go back to your like, really, very first point was that this is why there are over 50,000 works on a oh three, whatever it might happen to be. This is why this is so popular, is that people want the resolution that we never got in the text. We never, you know, everything is so open ended. And I know it's very on Vogue for writers to say, Oh, well, you know, I like to leave things open ended because, you know, life is messy. We don't get all the answers. It's not really, I'm sorry, I don't necessarily buy that explanation. Because you've been with these characters for such a long time. You gotta invest it like I know that Peter Jackson got a lot of flack for having too many endings to the Lord of the Rings. Like like that he tried to do it like I am a fan of those endings. I'm like yes give me all the closure give me the characters saying goodbye to each other being emotional with each other going off into valid or whatever it happens to be you know that I want that I you know, I've been invested with these characters these people for this like amount of time and so I totally understand why as a fan base we would want to go back to that relationship and go so much was left unanswered Yeah. And now we're going to make it harder to

ah, and I love when it comes to Harry especially like through I mean, like we had talked about before of their obsession with one another like that heavily like more heavily sits on Harry just because like we said, we see the story through his eyes. So we spend the most time with Harry we don't know about Draco's like Helga Pataki shrine like and as you know, Perry, like, like we don't know about oh my god, but

you're gonna need a mental moment to adjust to that image

instead of instead of a What is it a football or something? It's just like, I don't know. Like,

like a little snipping elf.

Oh, yeah. Well, that's this should be very tiny. Maybe like a waffle or

like, magically magnify a snip to be like two in gorge it to be huge. I

know. And they'd be like in the wings. And Drake was like, Yeah, Harry's ears are that big

that's such a hot take. Oh,

crap. What was I saying for the helicopter tackiness? Oh, we see things from Harry's perspective. Yes. So but yeah, it's like there's always like you said in the last episode, the way he describes interactions with Draco are so detailed and so intense, like whenever he like, you know, Draco comes into the picture. And yeah, Draco is like super nasty. He does some really like mean stuff. And he's just, but it's just be opportunity for them. You know, it's like, like that childhood rivalry and like, hatred and stuff like that. Like, there's just, you're gonna have feelings toward other people that aren't necessarily healthy. Like, we talked about hormones, you know, various things and stuff like that. And Harry, from the very beginning was given the, the rhetoric that Southern was bad, like when Hagrid, you know, told him about what happened to you know, his parents and whatever. And like, no one that went bad was an insult there. And so all of a sudden, so already Harry has that prejudice on his side of things to slither in. Yeah, so you know, for him to be like, Oh, of course, I'm going to be in slither and when he meets the boy, you know, meets Draco in madam Malkin's, like, he's already going in, being like, Okay, I don't like this person. Not to say that Draco wasn't a little like, you know, like cocky, whatever. He you know, I mean, Harry says like, oh, all he knows is he really doesn't like this boy. It's like, it's not like Draco was being mean. He literally was like, oh, you know, what house do you think you're going to be in or like, Oh, are you starting at Hogwarts to Oh, my mother's getting my stuff. Like, he's just conversing, you know, with Harry. And it isn't until he's literally like, oh, like, you know, like, Oh, I'm sorry, your parents are dead. And he's like, he doesn't sound sorry at all. It's like, well, he's a lesson like how do you're supposed to remotely respond to finding out that some other kids parents were dead? You know what I mean? Like, it's what is it? You know, for him to, to it's just there's a lot of things like yeah, and of course, seeing Hagrid and he's like, Oh my God, that man like also any What else who would see a half giant standing outside of your, you know, like, it's like it's not you don't see half giants walking around. So it's like there's literally things in his reactions of like, but Harry's already on the defensive and he's like, Oh, this boy said that he's definitely going to be in another one. And like he's, you know, and then the way he reacted to my friend Hagrid, he's already put Draco in a box, you know, and Draco doesn't even know who he's talking to. So this is Draco just talking to any random person and then eventually he's like, Oh, what's your surname or whatever? Like, you know, I mean, he's literally he's not the best he's not the most tactful or whatever. And indefinitely. Jim Dale leans into it when you listen to like his I don't know how it is for Stephen fries or whatever, but he definitely like kind of smarmy, is it up? You know, like he gives he gives stricto an attitude more of an attitude versus when you read it verbatim? Like you're just like, oh, it's purely just another kid talking to you and also being just just conversing you know, it's just and yes, he says some like weird things like he's like, I don't think the other kind should be let in which obviously, like Muggle boards and stuff and like it just, you know, I hope your parents were wizards or whatever, like, obviously, that's a problem, but it's just, he's just a kid talking and Perry doesn't know enough at that point to be like, Hey, that's not okay. He just like knows it's not, you know, so their first meeting is very, yeah, yeah, complicated. You know, like, it's just like 11 year olds talking. Harry's awkward. He's, he's never really like had a good experience with anyone his age. Everyone hated him in school. He didn't really have friends. And this is before I even meet like it this is this is him getting his stuff. He hasn't been on the Hogwarts Express. He hasn't met Ron he hasn't. He This is his first interaction with someone his age. And of course, he's going to be he's just going to be awkward because like, thanks to Dudley, he doesn't have any friends. Like he never had friends. And that's why we can't assume that Harry is as well adjusted as he is, you know, because he's not really he's not and that's like, another thing to play off of is right. I just, I feel like there's opportunities that it could have gone differently and that's where like, fix it fix, you know, come into play where someone's like, Okay, what if something went a little bit different? Like of course like Harry being in Slytherin that's a fun one too because he chose not to and like Dumbledore is it's our choices that define us but but he could have been in slip there in and then that could have been something that then yeah, not necessarily made you know made Harry evil or something like that. But that also could be an opportunity for Draco to to grow and see and understand things from a different point of view like people really like to lean into when it comes to Harry's slash anybody but especially someone who's like when it's like a you know, rival or evil or whatever is once it comes out the abuse that he you know, lived under like, especially when they're older like if Draco discovers like Oh, I'm sure that you Yeah, you lived with Muggles. But you know, I'm sure like everyone just worships you know, Harry or whatever he's like, Yeah, but every summer I go home, and I'm literally like, verbally and physically assaulted and like, you know, like I have a really shitty life and Dumbledore lets this happen and things like that and for for someone to like realize that someone who they think has everything given to them doesn't it's like it really knocks you down a peg of like, you have this assumption of who a person is which same thing for Harry to Draco like oh, he assumes that he's a bad person even like postwar like a lot of times Harry becomes an order which I like we talked about before we don't think that that's anything like what he should be doing or would want to do because he's done enough like that would just but also the saving saving people thing is huge. So him becoming an OR is believable, like it could be written believably. Yeah. And he's going to you know, a big part of postwar or illness is probably tracking down dark wizards and like and those that like worked with them or you know, things like that, and he continues to hold that prejudice against Draco. Maybe Draco is on the run. Maybe Draco is like trying to prove himself as different but of course, like Harry's just gonna be like, suspicious, like, that's cool. You know, it's like yeah, there's gotta be some reason behind. He's not it's like this, that he's been manipulating something there's some reason when really he's just like, No, I'm just trying to be a better person and work with this charity or do this random thing or, you know, it's just, it's just having Harry being either immediately forgiving and being you know, because we can see that to have like, in the beginning him speaking for Draco and being like, he's a changed man. He didn't, you know, kill Dumbledore or what you know, for whatever reasons that he you know, he has Well forgives Draco for his choices and sees him as a boy cornered with his own, you know, like he's afraid like he had his own fears and, and things. But then also Harry holding on to that grudge and like her mind and even Ron being like, you are still obsessed with him. Because it's like, because you're, you're holding on to this grudge as something that's like, you're standing behind this and you're constantly checking up on his files and what he's doing and things like that. And what does it matter, Harry? What does it matter? Just go well, like, so it's it's always fun to see either Draco dealing with Harry who's forgiven, forgiven him and wants to like, move forward in a positive light. And Draco's like, doesn't want anything to do with it. Or it's just like, leave me alone. Like, leave me alone. But also then there's Harry that's holding that grudge and prejudice against Draco when Drake was trying to be different, you know, like to prove that he's different and better. And it takes a long time for Harry to believe that or like, realize that his words aren't lies, you know, because it's easy to be like, Oh, nothing. Everything you say is manipulative. Everything you say, Isn't I'm not going to believe a word of it or anything like that. So I love both of both dynamics. I love Harry being like an empathetic and forgiving person. But I also can see a very like stubborn, stuck in his ways, unforgiving Harry, because of what he lost, like, right, Draco had an impact and was a part of things that took the lives of people he loved. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. So it's like, you know, how do you separate that as like, even though he didn't kill loop and he didn't kill serious like, Lucius was, you know, kind of behind it. His aunt Bellatrix was, you know, depending on the perspective of the books or the movie, like there's, there's things with his family, which also is something that I love with tragic Draco is when he feels like he has to carry the burdens of his families, like I have to atone on behalf of my family. And then Harry being you know, forgiving nature is like helping him see that that's not his job to do and then he's he's allowed to find happiness. Like he's allowed to move on from this and not feel like he has to represent and carry all the transgressions of like, of his ancestors and everything like that, because that's crazy. No one should have to do that ever.

Yeah, take responsibility for your own actions. But don't ever feel like you have to accept this imposed assumed thing of taking account for the actions of people you are never responsible for. That's That's ludicrous. But also Harry has his own stuff to work through like Harry was ostensibly a baby that was left on a doorstep to fend for himself. Oh, October,

like end of October? Yes. Again, November Yeah.

And an old man that should have known better, should definitely not have done that. But then anyway, so then hurry comes into the wizarding world and his introduction to that entire sequence of events is a little bit tumultuous. Like if I were Dumbledore, I wouldn't be sending Hagrid, who is a half giant who's going to start or Hurry into being like, what is going on? Because this is really like yeah,

of all people to introduce him to the wizarding world like, Hey, buddy, I'm here to take you to your wizarding school like, I mean, exactly.

Wow. A lot. And then obviously, Hagrid instills in him early some of the prejudices of you know, the, the sort of anti slithering bias that we get. So that by the time and I think this moment gets forgotten about a lot, because, obviously, a lot more happens in the books. But at the time of the sorting ceremony, in the first book, everybody is petrified. Because nobody knows what to expect. And everyone is like, oh, you know, I really don't want to end up in the wrong house. There's a lot of guilt and uncertainty and pressure. That is like building up to this moment. So everybody is really nervous as first years. And I think that is why Harry in his head is going not slithering, because he doesn't want to let anybody down in that moment. He's like, I've just come into this magical world. I don't want my first step into it to be a wrong one. I don't want to pick slithering because that's where all the evil wizards go. And that's what's going through his head at the time. And, uh, nobody reassures it. No one says McGonigal doesn't say at the start of that introduction into the entrance hall, or whatever she doesn't say, Now, contrary to what you may have heard, there's no such thing as a bad house or houses are valid. She just sort of leaves it up to interpretation. And

there are four houses, let's go.

Yes. And also that is Very much the mood music for Harry's way that he navigates the wizarding world through all of his books. He's hardly told anything, he has Molly telling him he is too young to be in the order. Nobody informs him of anything he gets, like scant letters from people that can't really refer to any detail. Meanwhile, he's attacked by Dementors, and then expelled from the the only place he's ever felt safe. So much happens to this boy in such a short space of time, that actually, yes, I could see him being a safe space for Draco. But also Harry needs healing at the end of all of this, like, I think we get that we we get very quickly invested in the idea of Harry being the chosen one and saving the wizarding world. And to an extent he does that, but there's also a very wounded boy, that has grown up through all this, that then becomes a man. And ultimately, one of the reasons I see a relationship working between him and Draco is that they both have a very similar character flaw, which is that due to circumstances, largely outside of their control, they're only a or they only have been able to experience life through this very narrow prism of this is what I need to do. This is my you know, these are my goals. And I'm going to do the best that I can. And things worked out the way they did. And now, Harry, it's one of the things that I love to read about in book seven. Is Harry actually questioning how much did I know Dumbledore? How much do I really know about this mission he sent me on, he didn't really take any time to properly explain what a Horcrux was, how to destroy one, or maybe even go, Hey, Harry, there's this dark spell called fiend fire and you want to watch out for it. Because even though it's a way to destroy horcruxes, it's kind of not good. And you could die doesn't even say that. Harry has to ask him what an inferior says, like Dumbledore is my favorite character, but also should have disclosed information to people to avoid trauma setting in. And so I just think for somebody that purports to have love at the center of that ethos, there are a lot of love languages, and maybe communication is a key one. Right? And if you're purporting to love somebody who you're not communicating with, how healthy can that really be? And Harry learns that behavior in book five, whenever we see him thinking that he's being possessed by Voldemort, just like Ginny was, and so he decides to shut himself off. He's like, Oh, no, I think, you know, the, like, the worst is happening. I'm really evil on the inside. And I need to like withdraw from my support network, because nobody's got it. No, and no one's gonna want to have anything to do with me, because I'm a pariah. And in that moment, through experiences like that, he can have empathy with Draco right? Because exactly the same thing is happening with him, except from an entirely different perspective. And I'd note Do you see there being the potential for very much like her comfort stuff there or how does that work for you?

Doubt I mean, yeah, definitely. I mean, I love the especially when it comes to like self deprecation like especially with Draco like like I talked about about him carrying his you know, burdens and things like that like him needing someone to help him see that I mean, obviously some choices were his faults and things but he has the opportunity to like be happy and things like that as well as like, we go into a lot of the hurt that they inflict on one another you know, like it's like this constant back and forth of of disdain, you know, for one another, which is just, it's silly. Like it's silly. It's like why do you go to that extent to dislike someone same thing for Snape? Why do you go to that extent, to be you know, so awful to not only Harry but all these other kids, because of reasons and you shouldn't be teaching but but yeah, but it's like angst. Angst is is I mean for these sort of ships like angst is great. Like you don't want it to be easy like it's always fun when it's like oh, it seems like it's moving in that direction and then bam, something blows up and then they have to work through something else before you know things come back together and stuff but but yeah, it's nice to think of like especially like a character who's going through something difficult and then having that other person help them you know, help them through it. You know, Draco it's it's easy to see Draco as someone who's just like broken and wounded after the war. The same thing can be set aside for Harry. So it's like one of those characters becoming into like strong one or like the pillar to like help the other person work through when obviously they you know more so should be working through these things together because they both need it. Yeah, I just I love the stories of like the other one of the other people like bringing out the best in the other person like unaware that that's an art like that's something that they're capable of you wouldn't think so in this, you know, this relationship or this dynamic, but it's like, especially when they're, you know, obviously enemies, but then there's rivals through school, and that always pushes you, you know, like, Oh, I got a I got a one up Malfoy or whatever. Like, it's just you're pushing yourself to be better under the wrong circumstances. Like, it's like, that's not the healthy way to go about quote, unquote bettering oneself, but it's like, knowing that's another thing in there, like later on relationship aspect of like, Oh, you were always the one that kind of pushed me to go beyond when otherwise I might have been more complacent or like, you know, something like that. It's like, you didn't realize it, but you had this really intense effect on me, you know, yes, by existing sort of thing.

And there's something about that, that galvanizes in my opinion, all really good ships, the ability to turn an intense mood into something shippable there's that moment, that sort of crystalline moment of epiphany for, maybe they have it at different times. And that leads to more conflict, maybe one of them realizes sooner. And then, you know, the other one is still in denial, or maybe one of them doesn't realize it at all until much later, you know. And, you know, there's there's just because, like, you say, oblivious Harry as a thing. Yeah. So I can see, I can see Harry really not being the instigator of any of this, because he postwar he just wants to live his quiet life, undisturbed by the wizarding world at large. But I can I can see Draco being like, No, you have to deal with this. And you have to deal with it with me. Because we are both we both trigger each other for unspecified. And then you know, and then they get into it. And

and then they get it. For further details.

See Meg's is fun fiction

in hot, salty details,

Oh, God. Another thing I love about you know, because another thing like Harry is often written as someone who closes off, you know, like, after the war, he feels like once again, he feels like he holds a lot of guilt. Like if I had done something sooner, if I had done something differently, if Dumbledore had just told me more shit, people would be alive still, you know what I mean? Like yeah, there's just there's so much that was withheld from him that did lead to a lot of lives lost and that's not his fault, but he's gonna carry it that way. You know, he's gonna believe that if I had done things differently that could have made a difference so it's like falling into that like into that depression and you know, self loathing essentially, you know, you can definitely picture him like just living a reclusive life and like Grimmauld place in that dark and dank you know, place regardless of whatever work they put in while the order was there but then like sitting in the fact that like, oh, this was this is mine, but also this is where my godfather lived, and like I have that memory of him and the loss of him and like, and Ron and Hermione trying so hard to be like you need like you need to move on from this like you need to move on with your life like this is everyone else's moving forward and you need to and then my favorite thing is like either for my knees like even Malfoy is Baba blah, what's up with Malfoy? And then all of a sudden it just like triggers again of like, What do you mean he's working at the ministry? And then he's just like, you know, like I said, it's like that trigger of like, suspicious, then all of a sudden, that's all he forgets how sad he is. And he's like, I gotta stop him doing whatever the hell he's doing.

Stop him doing what I don't know. But I have a feeling that my being though will do it.

I don't know. But there's something he's up to Oh, man, oh, I also love when Draco like either like works at the ministry or in some way works with Hermione and like secretly they've been friends and then when that comes to light, like either Ron knows because you know, in whatever situations that Ron and Hermione are together, and Harry doesn't get with Jenny or whatever and And like because because I could see that being like if anyone were to forgive Draco and open that opportunity for like easy forgiveness for other people like her, her mind is huge like she's the one who was directly affected by all that rhetoric and bigotry as far as like Muggle borns and muggles being lesser for her to forgive Draco or to get on a plane that they can work together at least professionally and like have respect for one another is huge. And then obviously, Harry doesn't believe it. It's just like, we've been working together for two years. And like he's like, Oh, no, I don't know about that.

Yeah, I would love to actually see that conversation between Hermione and Draco. And Hermione just asked him outright. She's like, do you still believe what you said to me? Or, you know, in a second year, when whatever, you know, to use to add, and he just goes, now, you know that there's that moment of like, too much has changed in his world. For him to have the same stymied view he always did. You know, he's lost too much too much has shifted, the picture is to radically altered. And I think I see, in many ways, the sort of the ruptures that the war has caused, being a sort of a rallying cry to whoever is left to unite behind each other in a way that they just couldn't refrain. Because the battle lines were too readily drawn. You know, I want to see that conversation between Hermione and Draco. But I also want her mind to sort of go, Yeah, we need to not involve Harry in this, at least not initially, because he wouldn't get it not. Yeah,

we yeah, we need some time for us to like, be okay. Because otherwise Harry is Harry is going to make it about him. You know, if you really thought about it, like if, if soon as Draco came into the equation, and he thought that he and Hermione were building some sort of relationship, like he was going to be there. Like, even Ron, to an extent would just be like, here's a million reasons why you shouldn't, but then Hermione is just going to be like, this is like, we're older, we're moving on, we're trying to, like, create a better tomorrow. And if that means that, you know, allowing someone to better themselves and to grow and learn from something and have us be, you know, and even, like build, like him becoming some sort of, like, advocate for change or things like that, like that's, you know, that's a huge thing to have him getting involved in something to do with like, Muggle, you know, Muggle relations, or, you know, things like that is like another cool aspect of him be there for his own, you know, feeling of needing to atone and do and do good. Like he's, you know, like, he needs to put positive things out, you know, even if he doesn't feel like worthy of like being right, you know, like, when people are like, Oh my gosh, you're doing such a good thing to him. He's probably just like, I feel like I have to, you know, like this is I did you know, something so bad. I don't deserve to be thanked for what I'm doing now. Like, I need to be doing what I'm, you know, doing now and things like

that. Yeah. Wonderful. catharsis. Yeah, that that moment of feeling like, there's more on your shoulders than you can physically deal with, which is why you need another person. And we both know who that person should be. In this instance, yes.

Oh, gosh, I Okay. So now when it comes to like, so tropes and stuff so what are your favorite like tropes or setups for for Drarry

Well, one of the ones I love and it's because it because I read it in a fanfic of yours. Is that sort of coffee shop? Hey, you wasn't hurry the barista in this?

Yes, yes, he was. Yes, that's right. Leave it to fate. Yeah. And he would Yeah, yeah. And oh, gosh, yeah, he was. That was I never thought that I would ever write a coffee shop a you. And I just, it was just so that was so much fun. That was such a fun one to write that was for Eris said, I think in 2021 Because I didn't do it last year. It's also I think, one of the longest things you've ever written. Yes, it was before I wrote my drill this, which I was like, I think that one's like 45,000 words. And then my drill buss is 85,000

which is that's the length of a dissertation. You have written a drought dissertation now. i Wow. That's wild. 85k.

Yeah. The funny thing was is because I do even do that i started i i don't know what just happened. So that was like another well here's so this is kind of related to Drarry. So what happened was, is there was Drell bus fest, and I was like Okay, this is you know, this would be fun, I'll try this and there was a, you know, the prompt was that Harry and and Draco were or partners and so then he was around when Elvis grew up and of course things turn, you know turn from like, you know more like familial platonic growing up to when like obviously when he grows up it's like, oh, all of a sudden, you know, perception changes and things like that and so my thing was like, obviously I'm gonna play off of the Drarry, like, repressed together, you know, like, never got together and him being if he can't be with Harry he wants to, you know, still be a part of that family and things like that and but then finding his connection with Albus to be deeper than whatever he had with Harry but for the drowsiness fest I had already gotten like 20k And I mean, I got 20k in and then I happen to like was reading the rules and it said there was no background Drarry so it's like they they're like, We understand that people like that. It's like oh, even like Draco wasn't with Harry and he loved Harry but then he's gonna be with his son like it's just like oh, because he's a mini Harry like I guess that's that's a common thing, obviously. Right? Yes. So they wanted obviously more stories that were just based off of like, you know, Draco could have literally still despised Harry and then maybe had his own prejudices against his son kind of like a you know, a Snape situation. And but then eventually something they in their own way found some sort of connection obviously, it plays off of like with Chris child, if Elvis was in slithering and becomes friends with Scorpius, and like, you know, there's just a lot of opportunities there for there not to be Drarry. So anyway, I couldn't get Drarry out of it, because it was a really big like plot driver, you know, for obviously, 85,000 words. And so then I was like, I had to swap and I did a different prompt and wrote a different work. And then next gen fest came around, and grace rain had done the prompt drowsiness fest, and then they prompted it again, for next gen fest. So then when I saw it, I immediately was like, Oh, my gosh, I literally already have this story started. I've like 20k of this story that never went anywhere. And so then that's when I, you know, I pulled it back out, I thought it was close to done, but then after like talking back and forth with some friends about how like, Okay, this is this needs to be a story that really progresses the relationship, because it's literally like, oh, how do I go from someone who literally, like, saw the birth of the person they end up with? You know, it's like, you need to, like, slowly progress that, you know, the relationship growth

has to be a slow burn. Yes. So

I can't just be like, surprise, and within whatever amount of words like 18 years later, yeah, exactly. Like, Well, what happened, but like, you know, so it's like, going through our buses, like feelings of like, oh, he realizes he has a crush on his, you know, in this instance, he's his godfather. So like, you know, so Right. And so he's always been they've always had a really tight bond and him being there for him. And of course, Elvis is like, Oh, you're the only person that you know, understands me or understands me best. And it's like, obviously, his first love would be him. But then he obviously dates other people during school, it's not going to be like, Oh, will he stay single forever, you know, before being with kids waiting for Draco forever. So it's like I had to go into all of Elvis's nonsense in school. And that was super fun to explore. It was very intimidating at first because I'm like, I don't like I like I haven't played with him in this sense of like, now I have to literally deal with a ton of original characters, and that I never really had done so I was like,

okay, yes. Oh, see my Miss Scorpius

doesn't Yeah, score. Scorpius doesn't exist in this story. So it's like literally him and his cousins and I'm like, Okay, there's gotta be other slither ins that he you know, knows or whatever and so then and then obviously love interests and things like that and, and whatnot. And it was that was a lot of fun. But But yeah, so it's like Anyway,

take like cycling way back to Drarry love interests. The reason the reason I love this fic The reason I love this trope because of this fic so much is because so your coffee

Are you the coffee one not the not the drought was what we're going back to the

coffee. Yes, the the coffee shop

to confuse anybody like, Oh, we're going literally back up.

So one of the things that you decided to do visually, which I thought was really impactful was you decided to use like, as though it was screenshots from messengers between these two characters over their phone and knowing having sent a few risky texts in my time and having to wait for those replies. There is so much emotion baked into those exchanges that I was like because normally If you were to say to me plunk these two characters inside a sort of a magic list au setting, I'd be like, Oh, well, that's boring, because that's what we have anyway. But like, because you were riffing on all of these things that, you know, I'm pretty sure we've all experienced relationship dynamics. And it was, it was so relatable, and it made me warm, like you did the impossible in that you made me warm to the smarmy side of Draco. It was. It was incredible. So yes, so favorite tropes, definitely that ranks very, very highly. What about you? Do you have any particular settings that you'd like to see them in?

So I'll start like starting out, I definitely was like, the eighth year crew, like I was very much about the eighth year, just because starting out reading that comfort area of especially getting into like smart, thick and things like that. Life is very different. Now I read all sorts of things. And yeah, you do. It's great. Like, there's just so much content out there. And it's fantastic minds are wild. And I have a lot of fun. And, but as far as like, I like my favorite now i It's probably I do like the like the dads dating like I love when they have their kids and it's like a later in life them getting together, especially when like kinda like we were just like, in my in that thick they're doing you know, they're in a dating app. So that's what they're, they're talking back and forth after Harry's divorce. And, and Drake goes marriage was definitely a marriage of convenience. And he did want to, you know, want a child so they had a child together. But he definitely, you know, identified as gay the whole, you know, the whole time versus Harry's, like I buy you know, like, that's just, that's, that's Yeah, but I and then I love like the kids kind of like working together to get you know, their dads together because they like either find something like like, like a diary or something that they found that they're like, oh my gosh, exactly. Yeah, my dad was obsessed with your dad and they're like showing each other and whatever. And then like we gotta get them together, you know, sort of thing, kind of like a different Parent Trap situation.

Yes. A literal Parent Trap.

Yes, literally. So I do love that like finding love later. Like, like giving them the time to heal and find themselves. So it's not like two broken boys like fumbling through life and probably doing a lot of things to hurt one another versus like figuring stuff out, finding their stride and like their careers or their life and then either growing apart from other partner or whatever, like I love them finding each other later. And having either forgotten about them, you know, literally, like hadn't hadn't heard about Draco, or what he's up to, or he you know, or Draco just ignores like, he knows that Harry's like, either in the papers or he's worked on staying out of them. Like he just stays out of the limelight, and they just haven't really confronted one another in like, a decade or so, you know, like it could be a long time. And then when they came back into each other's lives, what they felt as kids which is like, you know, obviously that hate for one another but then that also can drive into you know, attraction. We love that too. Like the you know, the the, the hate horror, the sort of thing like

so, today's episode has a trigger warning for hate cooking.

Yes, exactly. So it's them, them being adults coming together and having more like, like walking into a relationship with more empathy and understanding because they had lived a good amount of their lives and then found each other again, and then were able to, like forgive each other or learn more about each other that they obviously didn't know existed because they never connected in that way. Right? Yeah, so that's definitely one of my my favorite ones is like them, them finding each other later. What I didn't know and I didn't know that I could ever say as far as like a second favorite is for the longest time and we've we've brought this up before even before you did the AU episode with fee. I never understood the appeal of like modern au or non magic au because it's like the reason why I'm into Harry Potter is because of the magic right? Like that's, you know, like that was a big thing. And then I happened to do the Harry Draco reverse bang and my artists did a picture of a basketball player Harry and theater student Draco and immediately I was like you know what, they are perfect for like this like, like literally High School Musical was what I like what I envisioned as well as like I went back to like oh, I I was in theater in high school and I was a cheerleader for basketball and like so it's like I've seen the like interactions of like the different, you know, like, like types of football and I was able to like put myself in drills that was the first time that I really could be like, oh Draco is me in this like, I'm like, I'm the one who's you know, like what are the things that he's doing and experiencing to make that more real from the aspect of like, yeah, I was in theater and and so I'm literally going to like and I cared a shit ton and Draco care to ship time and all of that and I just I loved I loved it. I loved it and I walked away and I was like, holy crap I like a us now and then I'm like, oh University a raised of them you know, like it's just like the same thing of them at school rivalry but then you know, somewhere else the idea of like Draco and Harry in like yeah, just like non magic magic. Other tropes like feel like fitting into like, you know, more like Boyd's love stories generic stuff. I can see why people put them in non magic situations like because because the characters are fun to play with. Like Draco is so extra he's either so yeah, so tragic. He's either so tragic, or he's literally so ridiculous. And both ends of that spectrum are are so fun. And then there's completely daft and oblivious Harry, which is super fun. And then there's like, you know, his own broken trauma, you know, like, it's just the shades of them are so fun. There's just so many opportunities to put them into lots of different things. But healer and healer Draco, I love healer Draco, I love him doing something to feel like he's doing good. After all the horrors that happened during the war, especially when Harry is like an oar and putting himself at risk all the time and is constantly going to St Mungo's. To the point of them literally having like this is the Harry Potter Ward because like every other you know, every other week something happens and

that's so grim. He literally

goes he's like we're ready for when Harry Potter comes back and then eventually it's it ends up being Draco who like oversees his care and stuff like that. And that's a I love I love that too. When healer Draco in some way has to. So there's with your hurt comfort thing, you know, like, like either a sick thick or injury or something like that. That then Draco is the one who has to take care of Harry and man we didn't even get okay, you know what? We're not done with Drarry because I was like, we didn't even get into soulmates we didn't even get into like, there's just so there's So

Max, Max, I I have to I have to just slip in here as well. And say that, I don't know if this is like content for a bonus episode. But I really want to talk about them in the context of A/B/O I didn't realize how into like A/B/O was until you see something and I was just like, Oh, damn, I really I'm enjoying this a lot. And yeah, they they fit so perfectly into that dynamic. Yeah, that potentially this is like, bonus episode material. Yeah,

we need a dress. We need an ad. Yeah. And another Drarry, like spicy tropes, you know? Like, I mean, well, it just more tropes. There's just so many tropes, and they fit in all of those, but oh my gosh, Omegaverse just know a Drarry Podcast. Omegaverse Absolutely. Because yeah, I think my story was that was a drowsiness that was a Draco Albus story when I and I remember, I think I've said that. I don't know if I've said it on this podcast, but I've definitely told you, it was one of the most uncomfortable things I had ever written. Because it was so filthy, because you're just like, okay, because of Mega Omegaverse for those that like, read it, like, you know, like, you know that it's like, sloppy, like, it's just like, sloppy, sloppy, it's

visceral. Yes.

And for those that aren't familiar How do I even Well, well, we'll go into it. In another episode. It

occupies a very special corner of the internet that some of us like to delve into every now and again, we have certain proclivities that allow us to enjoy especially spicy content, and it's a little bit extra a little bit spicy, but I do feel that it warrants discussion, potentially in a bonus episode setting or potentially, like just a generally spicy episode, that we've peppered with warnings, just like this is like our, you know, like the so in I don't know if you remember in The Simpsons when Homer ingests the Guatemalan insanity pepper and goes on a spiritual quest, because it's so hot that he starts to be he starts to have visions. And definitely, that's how I feel about A/B/O Oh my god, it's so it's so hot that it sends me to a different plane of existence for while.

It's so good. And like at first, of course, I love the dynamic of like, well, gosh, I can't start now because we need to wrap up because I

need to know we need to do this in another episode. We don't have the time. But we will.

We're coming back to Omegaverse

we are too excited. I cannot I cannot believe I feel like we've just hit our stride with this. And we have to say goodbye. Now this, there aren't enough hours in the day. I just want to spend time with you. It feels like we've been talking for about 10 minutes and two hours of guy now. Like, what's what's happened? Anyway, so let's wrap it up. Next time when we may or may not be discussing spicy Drarry

content. So for you guys, definitely reach out to us, Tumblr, Twitter, whatever. Give us your favorite Drarry Rex, like if you're a big Drarry fan, and I'm sure a lot of you are. Give us your Drarry Rex to tell us your favorite, you know, obviously tropes and dynamics, let us know if there's anything that you Drarry related that you would like us to talk about. Because we could always you know, come back and explore that too as far as the specific because you know, Nathan bringing up like, he wants to talk about Omegaverse and I'm totally down for that. And if someone was like, I need a Drarry soulmate episode or something like that, like that would be a lot of fun. I think that too. Yeah. Like we'll just we could definitely pepper in some random, you know, Drarry stuff here and there, which would be super fun. But yeah, so especially Share, share the thick that got you into Drarry or the art or anything like that like that

all the poetry or whatever it is, yes, mood

boards, do you name it whatever like, like, it's because it was Tom Felton and Daniel Radcliffe. Like it literally could be anywhere. Yeah.

I mean, I know that Tom Felton recently released a book called Beyond the wand, but we don't need you to look beyond the one for this. This is very, we know that it was a formative experience for a lot of you. And we're here to support you on your journey. And if you want to share those those early, tremulous experiences with us, we will definitely nurture them and care for them and celebrate them with you on our journey through Drarry. Because like, I don't know how many episodes this is going to be. But I have a feeling that we could just keep

talking. I know we could. Well, I mean, we'll definitely we'll definitely pepper in some other chips because we gotta we gotta but we definitely have like, even if we do like a bunch of record a bunch of these because we're on a roll and then just be like, Okay, we're gonna do a couple of these and then BAM here you get a Drarry one. Blast the beat so fun.

So we're just gonna bank Yes, Drarry episodes back to back.

Literally just have it then we just need to like we do need like a side podcast, like literally like its own little thing of this is just all Drarry episodes. Like, that would be funny. I mean, it literally could be Care of Magical Drarry

cat of dramaturgical. Yes,

that feels like it's getting into drag and stuff. Oh, there's another thing too, like the different types of Draco. Like, you know, like trans representation of both of the characters. Like, there's, there's, there's so they're just so much about everything, or even

or even like Indigo and hairy things. Like we haven't even talked about,

you know, yes. Yeah. Does he Harry and yeah, exactly,

you know, more diverse representations of characters. And we haven't even touched on although obviously we've we've gone about it in a sort of a circumspect way, but sort of queering the narrative, and like you said, more trans representation, more intersex representation, more even pansexual representation, like it's all possible. Look, listeners, what are you want to hear? Like, I would love to talk about it all. But ultimately, we are here to please you. This is about giving you a good and we want you along for the ride. So tell us what you want to have. We'll go and make that good stuff for you. We did we do this for you? Yeah,

I mean, we obviously have fun, you know, but yeah, but we love you having fun with us. So that's yeah, I mean, you know, that'd be literally like the two people that listen to us. Awesome. We're so glad you know, just kidding. There's more than two people. There's four. No,

it's great. Joe, can I just say, though, that you are my favorite three people on the planet? You I just add that, like we said in our in our episode, I think it was like two episodes ago, where there are so many patrons that stuck with us, even during our high which was just incredible.

Waiting for us. Oh my gosh, that's so nice. Yeah,

you're just the best. We love you a lot. We're gonna have to go because I have to wrap it up. But I'm very sad about that. Because I feel so like on a roll with it. I could keep going forever. But because time is a thief. And it steals good moments from happy people. We have to say goodbye for now. But I will see you very soon in the next one. And keep shipping things keep writing to us. And we will keep making that good. Good stuff for you. Okay, then listeners. I guess I have to say by now,

I guess. Saying

bye bye. Bye. Bye bye. Oh my god. Me too. Good. Thing. Bye bye bye. Yes.

Too bad. It's not too bad. Not snot April. Like, you know, it's kind of a my no

oh boy, bad, Drarry boy, bad, Drarry. Oh my gosh, one of my favorite stories star quality by hula hoop. It's where they end up in a Muggle like dimension. And Draco is oh pop star. And Harry's trying to figure out how to get back to the magical world and discovers that Draco has come there with him. And he got he became this pop star. And so Harry's tried to get in touch with a dang pop star. And oh my gosh, that was so good.

Can you can you said that? I

will. I will send it. Yeah,

that sounds aim. Maybe we need to talk about this in like a subsequent episode. Yeah, it's it's kind of magical drawers.

We were going to do other stuff. But where do you know, see,

this is what this is the downside of putting off something this good for so long. Is that because

we wanted to put it off because of how big it is. So we wanted to give give other ships the time of day before we dived in, you know, to this monster So, but we're here now not just and then obviously we're gonna be here till we're at. So there's plenty of time for us to do not Drarry.

Yeah, we'll be doing podcasts long after everybody has since moved on to like virtual reality had Sadie conference still be like talking into our 90.

I know. But yeah, we're literally on Zoom talking to our mics. Meanwhile, everyone else is like a hologram in someone's you know, room. I know. It's like, we talked about how people are moving to like video podcasts. And we're just like, that sounds like more work than we, you know, needed because, like, I'd rather record audio and wear my pajamas than have to like, do you know? I mean, so

I'm gonna be like, I'm gonna be candid with the listeners right now. I have a lot of very positive feedback about my voice. And people really seem to like the way I speak. But then everybody that I have spoken to is like, huh, I don't know that I would have put that face with that voice. Like, you know, maybe more people don't need to see my face. I mean, I know. I know that. I know that you patrons know my face and like it, but I don't dress up for these podcasts. I'm not sitting here going. I'm being my best self right now. I mean, I have matted hair. And I'm just like, the light is fading. So I look all like mysterious and slightly. Click

the light blue half of your face and then like the orangey red side.

Yes. It's very like, akin in Star Wars Episode. Yeah. It's it's a moment, but I'm not convinced. It's a moment that I'm prepared to share with the entire podcasting world. So I'm very comfortable for now. Unless you really, unless there's a massive groundswell of support for us transitioning into video podcasting, which I hope there isn't but if if you if you really want to see my face, then on your own heads, but yeah,

well, if you want to see our face This right now you can pay to see

that's another way to do it. And you can see

having said that, we love you. We'll see you in the next one. I said goodbye, like five minutes ago and then I kept talking.

Hope you enjoyed. See you next time. Bye. Bye. Oh my gosh.

Well, that was probably one of the most fun times I've ever had recording with you

I ship it!