Welcome to the index podcast hosted by Alex cahaya. plugin as we explore new frontiers with web three, and the decentralized future.
Hey everyone, and welcome to the index brought to you by the graph where we talk with entrepreneurs building the next wave of the internet. I'm your host, Alex Kehaya . And today we are speaking with Greg Osuri. Greg is a renowned open source developer and the co founder and CEO of Akash. Network, and has transformed the future of cloud computing. Prior to Akash, Greg founded Angel hack the world's largest hackathon organization, with over 200,000 developers across 164 cities globally. Greg, so happy to have you on the show. And as you know, I'm a huge fan of Akash, and investor. So really excited to have you today and just kind of share your story with everyone.
Super excited to be here, Alex, this was in the books for a while glad we can make it happen.
Yeah, me too. So let me just kick things off. Just give me the download on what you guys are doing. I mean, obviously, I know, but for the benefit of everyone listening, what what what is a CAUTI? And how did you end up going from Angel hacks to this? And you know, how do we get to get to where we are today?
Absolutely. So in its simplest sense, Akash is a World Sports marketplace for unused compute capacity. What the network does is like a marketplace where you have computers, essentially computers and data centers, or cloud computing nodes that have tons of unused capacity 85% or so the capacity that use, what Akash does is it takes these clusters of compute, make it available in a form factor that's designed for modern day applications. And since this is a permissionless, and open marketplace, the price point right now is about 1/3, what you would pay Amazon, so it's a very attractive proposition. On top of that it's permissionless self sovereign, and fully open, right, so it's very attractive, open source alternative to the oligopoly that we have, which is a cloud infrastructure. While the history is a little, it all goes back to Angel hack Angel hack was a company founded in 2011. To take hackathons to the masses, we were responsible for taking hackathons, which were a very underground concept and make them you know, mainstream, right, that's where I had an amazing experience working with over 101 50,000 developers in about 50 cities, and really gave me an incredible insight into understanding developers and especially under duress, you know, hackathons, you're doing about 36 hours to to build an application from scratch and present to users and turns out amazing experience. They're launching incredible companies. One of the companies I helped launch at Angel hack was Firebase. Firebase, as you know, is a popular Google cloud database now, but you know, that's the kind of applications people would come and launch at Angel hack. So a common theme across in terms of problems that across different different developer domains happen to be scalability or deployment, right? So what that means is what you write on your laptop, or your workstation, and how do you make what you write what software you build locally, and make it available to your users by putting putting it on the cloud. Turns out that, even till today is very challenging. And a big part of the problem was, while you have amazing tools that make it simple enough for you to deploy something, but scaling the deployment and making it available to more users was not a an easy thing. So that's when the idea, but my passion is to solving the problem came about and I stumbled upon a technology getting popular back then called Linux containers. This was popularized by a company called Docker. And I found that to be very fascinating. I started playing around with it and stumble upon another technology in 2014, called Kubernetes, which was, you know, very, very early was adding fault tolerance to these Docker containers, decided to make some contributions to Kubernetes community and formed a company to take Kubernetes to I was just fascinated by Kubernetes, because it will do amazing things with Docker, essentially making Docker super helpful and useful without getting to do too much into the weeds. But you know, Kubernetes today is used by 80% of the cloud. And so we started a company overclock labs to take Kubernetes to market. The idea was you can deploy Kubernetes based solution anywhere in a data center as and make a data center, essentially a cloud provider, still permission but you know, essentially could turn a data center and cloud provider. That's when we discovered 85% to 95 90%. of compute, that was sitting in data centers we were deploying to was unused. And so there was this like notion that You know, and while you have this huge inefficiency, and you have this humongous market, or industry being formed called cloud service providers, or Amazon, Google, Microsoft and Alibaba, right? And the value proposition was like, well, you have this enormous unused capacity, instead of doing that come to the cloud, you can pay by by usage. So that was a value proposition cloud came about turns out reality was a completely different reality. I mean, you actually end up spending a lot more money on the cloud, that they're running a data center. And these cloud companies now have 81% market share. So if you imagine cloud is a fabric of society, all your data or your you know, your applications are that they serve you sits on the cloud, majority of this cloud is actually controlled by four companies. And that very thought is scary, right? So that's when the idea for a questioner came about? Well, we saw on one hand very clearly, there's enormous apply the same sitting there idle, unused, while there is enormous demand. The cloud is about a trillion dollar market, Amazon Web Services alone, which is the cloud computing unit of Amazon, you know, the company is valued at over $500 billion. So just gives you a scale, right? If you think of Amazon valued a few few trillion, right, so it's enormously profitable unit for a lot of these companies. And there's clearly enough demand, there's clearly enough supply is such a dumb idea that we should make this the supply available to to match the demand. And when we were going about designing a system, it was very important for us as open source developers, that the system should be equitable, it should offer a price point that's market driven, it should be self sustainable, it should be transparent. So when you took all his values that we had hired to as open source developers, and design a cloud, we ended up creating the world's first open source cloud. So that's the journey. And I'm so proud because Akash network hosts over 150 applications, live applications. And we do about 100 100 250, daily, new deploys a day. And we were doing about 100 active applications like 15 years ago, right? So it's, it's growing really fast. And it's still doubling, you know, every month, if you think about it, the amount of workloads after applications being being deployed. And I'm so proud that we actually now have a fully a good viable alternative to Google's Microsoft and Amazon. That is fully openness, fully transparent and owned by the people.
That's amazing. I mean, so how many applications do you say again,
I think, as of today was 50 applications that are active and long running applications. Yeah.
Amazing. Amazing. Can you give us some examples of some of the stuff that's being like built on top of the cache? A cache, sorry.
cache means sky in Sanskrit is where the clouds meet, you know, so the cloud or cloud, that's where the name came from. Or it could also mean the ether in Sanskrit so we have a few stars. The biggest one of the biggest applications is osmosis. So osmosis is the first dex built for cosmos. osmosis is using Akash network to run the real layers and API servers and receivers and an RPC service. We have helium, which is running some of the validators I mean, helium is a decentralized network for somebody helium validators are running out of cash some of the Sentinel nodes I think being run Prakash so broadly speaking, we observed about three types of applications three three cohorts we put these applications in one type of application we're seeing a lot of demand and it's obvious why is because and these are miners essentially right so they see low cost compute of course you know you're going to have more arrows you're gonna have pocket any any resource heart function is greater than or cash because it's low cost right? The price advantage when we when we launched Akash was about one eight of Amazon costs so that's what the market was giving us because of the arbitrage now we are like 1/3 so still not bad. So significantly lower than Amazon arbitrage is one of those that add efficiency to market so allowed them for that but also increased prices so I hate them for that. So but it is what it is right? So they actually add efficiency. The second type of people are I think the most effective people and really, they don't have an alternative I call them the anti D platforming. Right so as you know D platforming is rampant it is while it's one thing about having political differences the fact that real political differences aside the fact that there are platforms that can silence you that are not government control, but private control right that alone just sort of like scares the hell out of me right even government controls is scary but but considering that these Amazon's and Google's Microsoft can shut you down, if they don't like you don't you have misalignment with their values and they don't need to give a reason they can shut anybody down. Right? That patch power in few is Not something that we can sleep it. So there's a ton of applications on our couch right now that are fighting this battle or D platforming and running. So one of the beautiful ways people use a cache now to get a full stack DNO unsensible application, all the way from DNS level is to have DNS on handshake, and have your application servers and your database servers running on a cache and have that database backed up to cya Skynet. Right? So now you have effectively a full stack solution, end to end that skips the traditional internet altogether and have this amazing, you know, alternative internet where you have like sentinels or or can you even can actually, if you if you had you know handshake resolvers to the VPN, you can actually you know, discover using using one of the VPN, decentralized VPN clients. So I think the world is kind of mean signals. Obviously, if you sent no VPN, you can now resolve automatically with handshake. So now you have a completely different alternative, viable and viable solution to the cloud, like that second strong use case we have. And third is my most favorite one is the innovators, right? So a lot of amazing applications that are being built. I recently invested in a company called altea. altea is a decentralized internet provider, they actually are trying to do semi centralized internet access. And they will be rolling out 5g they're using are they exploring cash to sort of like run their 5g course, so they can price in. And in because Akash has dynamic pricing, you can actually price per request, they want to create a model where you can price bandwidth by based on the size, you're transferring the speed, you want to transfer it, which includes the cost of compute, right, so you have this beautiful dynamic pricing models, only a cost can enable on the cloud. And LTE is just amazing, using this innovation amazingly well, right. And you have other open systems like open registry, which is open alternatives to traditional applications, they couldn't have a fully open alternative because you know, data, and cloud was still not very open. So we are seeing systems like open registry and stuff like that using a cache, which I'm really excited about. Those are three categories.
Let's dive into the innovator category a little bit, because I think the Althea example, for people who are kind of new to this whole idea of what web three is, and decentralization Althea combined with a cache is a great example of, you know, overcoming some of the downsides of the traditional internet, right? And some of the restrictions there. So maybe you just explain to folks like, What is alfia doing? And how's that going to impact people? You know, why should they care about that? I know a few alfia. I know the company. So
a lot here, big support a big believer. So altea is essentially decentralizing internet access. It's like healing, but for high bandwidth, right. So what they're doing is they're putting antennas like a satellite grid antennas, across in strategic places, I mean, that the antenna holders are obviously or hosts are obviously incentivized to do so. So creating this multi hop network to essentially create an alternative internet that's wireless. And that is powerful enough, right? Then they're deploying hundreds of these antennas, you know, it's actually a fully functioning product, right? They're not launched yet. And in the sense that token, it's not live yet. But their product is actually functioning and people are using it, right. And a big value proposition politeia is the way the price, right? So for example, today, you get a flat fee, and you get a flat like betrayed from Comcast or whatever you pay. And you are pretty much stuck with their speeds, right? And we're LTE is offering is like a variable model where if you want fast internet, you actually can pay faster, have you on standard, and you pay by your usage, right? And that's incredible, because like, you're not using all the internet that's assigned to you all the time, right? A flat model is not the most optimal model for high performance internet. So something like this gives you a dynamic pricing. And so most people don't know that a lot of the pricing for for bandwidth also includes cloud because cloud is used for routing, right? So cloud servers are routed right, and you actually pay for the servers themselves right? Now because Akash is offering a price point is super low and it offers a very dynamically price. That means you can actually say it's a demand supply based auction, where the price can be based per request. altea is spinning up 5g cores on a cache and using that to route so thereby the cost savings that come from a cache are passed on to the consumer ultimately, so ultimately you and I benefit from the from the actual cloud cost that advantages that Akash and Althea provide. So it's a whole different model. And that's not possible with the current web technologies.
Well, so you know, what you're competing is a competitively priced product. It's a service that we're all used to right internet access, but it's provided on top of a decentralized network. So like right now, you know, I'm on whatever, some random name any internet provider, right? Like I'm using the centralized internet provider. I think in Santa Barbara, they have like Comcast, right? It's typically like terrible service. And you know, they see all of my data. And you know, they have complete control over all the data that goes over their pipes. If you switch to a decentralized model, though, in theory, that's going to be safer for you to use, you know, you're not necessarily going to lose that control of your data, you'll have like an ISP spying on you. I guess you could use a V decentralized VPN in tandem with without the A, but like, do they have a value proposition around like data sovereignty and rights and things like that as well.
you own your data, there are cellular data, which is publicly transparent, of course, have encryption on top of that, but I think it's like, the ownership is definitely very, very, very solver model, right? They're built using Cosmos SDK as a back end, right. So it's a blockchain based network. And if you want additional privacy, on top of that, you can definitely use a decentralized VPN, right? The beautiful thing is, is this web three is enabling so much decentralization at every level, the entire stack is getting decentralized, right? So before it was just DNS, but now you have transport level, and you have like the wire level, the last mile, we call it here, the last mile is getting decentralized as well, which is the most exciting part, right? So web three is gonna replace web show, no matter what I mean, so fast that before we realize it's going to be, it's gonna be gone. Yeah, and these are real products people are using, you know, like, I use a decent class VPN, I use all my blogs, all my websites are on a decentralized cloud, I use handshake. I use saya to store my stories, a lot of my life is actually migrated pretty successfully to decentralized. And I think that's going to be a trend. People are going to realize, of course, it's not the easiest thing to do right now. But that that's that's a problem time.
So yeah, let's let's talk about that, because that's something I've been really interested in to is. So there are people out there building the underlying infrastructure for web three to exist. And then there's also companies making it easier to access. And like having been helped start Firebase, you know all about that, right? Like Firebase is like the easy even somebody who like me like I'm like an amateur developer best, right. And I could figure out how to use Firebase. You know, when I think about a cache, and I think about Althea and like these other things that like a amateur developer might want to like, I remember when I first met you guys, I like, I went and spun up my own little Akash server and like, deploy an application to it. And I was, that was one of the things that made me so excited about you guys, is that like, I could do it. I'm wondering like, things like Fiat on ramps, things that like sort of obfuscate some of the harder things that make it hard to use some of these services, what what tools are you seeing out there that need to be built or that are being built, like who's building them, that make it easier for like the general person to access the services without necessarily necessarily needing to be like a crypto native,
there are two, I would say two different classes of user experience that we can break down, right? One is bringing on on an off ramp, basically bridging the outside world, right. So that, unfortunately, is a very highly regulated environment. So the best designs are also going to require you to put your credit, but your KYC information, right? So lots of people working on it, that's not the most exciting thing that I'm really excited about. But I'm what I'm really excited about is the crypto native, right? If you think about how fast it is to deploy nakash, compared to Amazon, it's just exponentially better, right? The tooling is better, the interface is lighter, it's simple enough for you to do things quickly and complex enough for you to do anything. You know, that takes time. Right? Takes complexity, I think. And that's a trend we see. Right? So we look at just to give you an example. decentralized systems, when they embrace decentralization end up building far superior user experiences than a centralized system. For example, uniswap, you look at uniswap and compare that to something like the best system like somewhere something like Coinbase, right? So for a brand new user to use Coinbase versus uniswap. The amount of steps they have to go through on Coinbase for example, is like you go you log in you swallow capture you solve a verification problem you have you double verify your email you put in your brand, it takes 3040 steps by the time you can exchange to swap an asset versus you come to us swab you click click click and you can swap fine you pay the extra gas fee, but that's the price I'm willing to pay for comfort, right uniswap the user experience is so great compared to any any other swapping experience anywhere. That just tells you that once you are you embrace decentralization and embrace a blockchain based state system you can design interfaces that are a lot more appealing than your traditional systems right? What I like something a uniswap compared to something like crypto bazaar I found out from Aaron appear. Remember, crypto bazaar is one of those early Bitcoin based applications. In 2017, I was trying to build like a shopping application on top of blockchain. But it was terrible user experience because you had a sink the whole blockchain. I think in the beginning, people didn't really understand how to build on asynchronously, well, on top of a blockchain based state synchronized state system. But now uniswap shoulders away, right. So that's just an example. So imagine similar experiences for something like cloud where you can deploy permission lessly by using your capital wallet, I don't know if you had a chance to check out osmosis, which is a Cosmos based chain, beautiful user experience without the cost without the gas fees, right? I think where we are going is a much a permissionless system, a easily extractable system that significantly upgrade in terms of user experience from from the traditional world. And because a lot of these systems now we have interoperability that's going mainstream. Thanks for IBC. Now, you're going to see systems that are going to interoperate and create a lot blood better systems, because these small building blocks that Akash offers or osmosis offers or, you know, this smart contracts for lack of a better word become more composable, right, so, so we just touched the surface, when it comes to the possibilities with user experience. With the next like, three to four years, we're just gonna see a camera explosion in types of experiences that I can sit in, like, give you exactly how it's going to show but looking from the trends of it, it's gonna be amazing.
So some of the projects that I'm really excited about, like audience, I like audience because it is getting a ton of adoption, like they have 5 million ma use. And it's sort of a hybrid in the sense that it's a consumer facing product for the listeners, but it's web three as well. And the artists are going to have to interact with the web three interfaces, right? And they are going to have to get on boarded into that system and use a wallet and figure out how to transact. Once you're over that barrier. Once you get some Fiat or some tokens somehow into your wallet. And you can interact, I agree with you, I think it's like, a much better, easier experience and kind of mind blowing, right? Like the first time I use uniswap. I was like, wait, I just traded assets. Like, that's amazing. I've just been thinking a lot about how do we get adoption? And what are the low hanging fruit areas where there are people like these artists, right? They have, like, that's what part of reason NF T's have become such a big deal and like audience I think is going to be a big deal. It's because the artists out there, the creators, getting that control back is a huge pain point for them that they're willing to go through. Beyond just curious like, I've generally genuinely curious about crypto, and that's kind of like how I got over the barrier, the learning curve to like, get a hardware wallet and like interact with, you know, uniswap through my hardware wallet and have like, some security in place and that kind of thing. But, you know, I just I just been thinking through like, Where are the pain points big enough that the barrier to entry, I mean, Akash is a good example too, right? Like the bear the pain points are big enough that you know, people are willing to interact is like a native crypto person. Like they'll they'll get over that, you know, that learning curve. And then as soon as they're in, they're like, hooked. I don't know if you have like ideas on like, where the like, that's another way to, if you're going to not say hey, let's not make it wed to experiences let's go totally decentralized. So then where are the areas where there's like low hanging fruit where the pain is high enough? And and there's there's users ready to adopt? Like, what are the areas that you see where where he's gonna have the most immediate impact in the near term?
The way I would classify futures, generally speaking, for any system is like, you know, cost productivity, or capability. So what that means is like, either you're saving me money, are you making me money? Either you're saving me time, or you make? you're gaining me time, right? getting me time, right? So essentially, if you if you have a product that saves time, or money, or both, ideally mean, ideally, if it does both, that's like a no brainer, right? The way I look at it is I call this cognitive proficiency in the sense like, every time I have a tool that you want to experiment with, right? You go to a website, you download you are you you know, you you're convinced that this is the tool that it says it does what it says you try it out, the two things that could happen could fail or succeed. When it fails, you're going to make a very important determination is the value of this tool is giving me bigger than the cognitive load that I have to incur to learn and fix this problem number one, right. So right now the as long as the value is higher than the cognitive load, it's great. So as long as the cognitive co efficiency is greater than one you have Working product, right? That's how I look at it generally from a value to cognitive load perspective. So you either build a kick ass product, very simple to use, but that may or may not give that much of a value difference from from the predecessor like a competition, but it's so much easier saves you a lot of time you went stripe, right? stripe was our first payment processor. stripe was so much better than, than the rest they want. They're not doing anything different, right? So there is that element, right? Or you do something like so crazy in value. And so stupid hard to use a bar, the value is so much higher than the than the actual cognitive load you in vim. vim is a tool that I use to edit my text, right? When it's a command line tool. Anatoly uses him he loves him. But if you bring a newcomer to him, and ask him to use it, the slap, I mean, you can't even exist, the damn tool is very hard to use. So I think it's not about it's like so it's that killer value, right? So I can't tell you what what that is. I mean, it's different from each, each platform, right? For a cost, its cost for a lot of these guys. In fact, for the miners that are doing Mineiro, they don't have an option, you can run money around the cloud, like kick you out, right? And there's a shortage of chips right now. So you can't even get hardware. Right? So what are you going to do, you're going to have to go to you because you have no other way. You're making money. Right? For a lot of the validators running on a couch, you're saving money, right? And I think where we're going is you're saving time and money. And that's a win or a combination. Any platform can save you money, or make you money and save time, I think that's the Holy Grail. So broadly speaking, you can just categorize into one things that defy is winning because you're making money. Well, you don't mind paying the extra gas fee. Right? You don't mind dealing with the suboptimal user experience, sometimes, but you're making money. So I think it comes down to that.
So if we start thinking about, you know, potential areas, I mean, the deep platforming use case is one of those where the pain is just so high. You know, do you have any stories or examples of some some products that you know are running that you'd be willing to talk about that I mean, you're not running but they are running on on on your system?
Akash is the way it's built is like, I can't know what applications are running. Right? That's that's the property of the system. I only know applications that are running, when people tell me that they're using a cache, right? So the term a domain name, I can look at the IP and be like, Oh, yeah, that looks like an IP Akash based IP. Right. One of the applications that caught my attention, I believe was freedom central calm, I believe. Don't quote me on it. It's just one of those applications. But we had a few people building. There's another unstoppable WordPress stack that's being built on a cache as you know, wordpress. 33% of the internet actually runs on WordPress. I love that. Yeah, it's just such a such an amazing and Akash is great for running WordPress, and MySQL and all that stuff. So there is somebody building a whole like service, that's unstoppable WordPress, that fully integrated, super simple one click Deploy, on Docker can do, I don't know what the name of that project is. But I saw that project floating around in a forum. So there are a lot of these smartphone applications. But I think people want to put one of the major ones on Akash. I can't talk about it yet. Toto, they put it on a cash flow. But there are a lot of major platforms right now that are considering looking at a cash seriously as a disaster recovery. A lot of them actually like even though they're not maybe not ready to move completely to cash, because Akash is not yet fully feature complete, right? made works for what it does, but it doesn't have all the bells and whistles Amazon, Google gives you so but what people are looking at a cautious as a viable disaster recovery mechanism. So you can have a Dr. site. If anything would happen to your primary site or primary, you know, website, your data center, you can always switch over to cash. So there's a Dr. Angle people are looking at it that that I thought was very interesting.
I think that is super interesting. I mean, we just recently saw that big fire. I remember one data center, it was something in Germany or something somewhere in Europe, I feel like but yeah, they like your your whole data center burns down. You know, what do you do? Where's all that data?
Yeah, so what Akash we optimize for is inter data center deployment, right? So Akash is amazing. underneath the hood is a amazing multi cloud deployment tool. So it D risks you're getting locked into a single data centers. So is it optimal optimized workloads to move around freely amongst data centers, so that that that in itself is a very powerful feature?
If you find the link to the decentralized WordPress project, I'd love to like include that in the link or whatever, the description to the show or something because that's super cool, too. And that's one of those examples of a product that like, I'm really curious about how that developer is going to end up architecting their payment solution like are they going to do a totally decentralized payment solution or are they going to just like take somebody's credit card Information handle on the back end? You know, and and are they going to keep self custody? Like they probably will. That layer of the stack when you're building a product like that is now I'm very curious to see how people end up building.
Because one risk of having a maintaining a banking relationship is that's cancelable. Right backs can cancel you that don't agree with your real values, right? Me. You know, it says that if you have if you're on ramp, that's probably and you do a full custody, then you can actually have built a amazing system with a credit card right? As long as you're not giving these tokens to people, and that's completely legal. So as much as I love to see the whole airhostess solution. I'm also curious to see how the sensitivity of evacuation will work. So time will tell, I guess,
yeah, I think there's a way to take payment with a credit card and handle all the other crypto stuff on the back end. But like have a tab in the settings somewhere that lets you get access to or like basically have like an option to pay with crypto or Fiat. And if you pay with Fiat, you know, there's a tab in the settings that's like, here's your keys, or here's your seed phrases or something like save these and you know, if you ever want to port away from my decentralized WordPress to someone else's decentralized WordPress, just drop these in and your data will go with you. Like all your store data will just go with you. And I think that that's kind of the future, but I don't know how it would work.
So what we did recently is a new feature in Akash, we introduced escrow accounts. So escrow accounts, essentially allows you to decouple payment account from operational accounts. So payment can be made to a different account. But you can actually use a product, deploy check logs and all that other good stuff, using a different key, right? You know, so by decoupling ownership and payment, we can actually create something something cool where you know, you can pay using your credit card, and those tokens are not given to you because it's illegal to actually, unless you're an exchange, you can't really what do you call, buy sell tokens? Yeah, triac BIOS on tokens, right. So they're, like, Cool solutions that are that are being built using these features, I think. Yeah. So I'm curious as to how the workflow happens. I'll let you know once this thing is ready, for sure.
Cool. You know, we're getting close to the 40 minute mark here. And I always like to ask people, what have I not asked you that I should have asked or that you wanted to share with with everybody?
censorship? That's a tough question. Let's do it. Right. The question that's on everybody's head, right? So Well, a conscious censorship resistant network, you cannot essentially, you know, take down a workload unless you own the workload, right? How do you prevent bad actors taking advantage of it likes how you could essentially put really bad stuff for a cause, right? Like things like, what if someone put like child pornography or something, right? How are you going to prevent? So the way I look at it is, even if I disagree with you, I will fight for the right for you to tell me what I should be deciding what I should disagree with you. Right? censorship by the few is censorship on it, essentially. Right? So censorship, in general, is a terrible thing. I don't want anybody to have the ability to silence somebody, right? Free Speech doesn't mean you have the right to yell fire in theater. The question is like, well, as much as censorship is bad, and we should build censorship resistant systems, it's also important to have the right amount of moderation, there's a difference between censorship and moderation, right? I think that's where people get confused. So in a cache like, well, the provider ultimately is responsible for all the content, right? If you're hosting something, and provider, like has a freedom, like, you know, in a free society to choose who they want to serve, right, just like you stores you walk into a store store should have the freedom to choose who they want to serve, or any business as a matter of fact, so providers should have the right to moderate themselves, but the system will ensure the right for anybody to have equal opportunity to deploy. So what that means is, so you deploy something on a cache, say a provider doesn't like you deploying, the provider will kick you out, the workload will go back on the network, and you will find another provider that may agree with you. As long as as one provider that's willing to serve you up, Sir, your workload will run. But if there are no providers as willing to serve you, your workload won't run. So something like say you have something politically misaligned with Amazon or something like that, right? I mean, there's half the country that I agree with, you have the countries who don't agree with you, you know, and that's fine. They can actually the people that agree with you can host you as long as one person to host you, right? But if you're something putting something like child pornography or something that's really bad, that nobody you know, agrees with you. You will not be able to serve as a community regulated moderator Is what is key to building building censorship resistant systems that actually try and not hurt society? Yeah, I
mean, it's a really tough nut to crack. And I agree with you on the, like censorship resistance and the importance of not censoring people, not silencing folks. And I think it's a really hard problem to solve, like, because because you have to have some kind of moderation. So it'll be interesting to see how the community manages that, you know, and that's sort of where we're into this uncharted territory. Nobody's ever tried that. Really, I mean, you have these centralized organizations that manage it. So I'll love to see, like, follow up and see how that gets managed. And if providers, how would a provider even know that something's running? They don't like, are they gonna get a cease and desist somehow? Like, how are they?
Because IP address is still owned by a provider, right? So you can know by the IP address, which provider and they can get a cease and desist, and they have to respect and like today, like equinix, you get cease and desist, you have to respect right? They have the tools already in place for that kind of stuff. Awesome. And we will work with providers to make that simple, better, right? Like you should be able to monitor at least know at a high level, what you're serving, you don't have to go into the workflows where at least on websites and whatnot will make the visibility a little better, as well. So they can self moderate.
Yeah, I think that's a step in the right direction. You know, it's a balancing act, man, it's good to know that you're even thinking about it, because I feel like we tend to just be so focused on the censorship resistance piece and decentralization that we forget that there's got to be a middle ground there. Like there there are there's There is a right and wrong here. And we have to try to handle both.
Yeah, yeah, it comes down to like, as long as a community as long as the community things. It's, it's the wrong thing. It's the wrong thing. As long as a community thinks is the right thing. It's the right thing, right? As long as there's half like, not majority, it's community, right. And there's a difference between a majority or a popular ism versus equilibrium. Right? Yeah.
Right. Yeah. And it's still a fundamental shift. The community owns the network. That's, that's a fundamentally different business model than the world we lived in before, which is super exciting. So but yeah, on that note, I think we'll wrap I appreciate your time. Thanks so much for being on the show. This was awesome. I had such a good fun.
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