When Helping Hurts & How to Become Whole with Brian Fikkert

4:56PM Jul 11, 2023

Speakers:

Scott

Dwight

John Bottimore

Luke Allen

Brian Fikkert

Keywords:

brian

people

god

work

story

relationship

world

church

kingdom

christian

called

poor

human flourishing

teaching

learn

eden

creation

togo

christ

talking

And so I think there's joy in the room, there's a sense of, oh, there's a better story. There's a better story. And it doesn't mean I have to throw out everything that I learned in the household I was in or in the church I was in. There's truth in everything I've learned. But there's more. And that that more has to do with the relational nature of human beings and the relational nature of our God.

Welcome to Ideas have consequences the podcast of the disciple nations Alliance, a show where we examine how our mission as Christians is to not only spread the gospel around the world to all the nations, but to also transform the nations to increasingly reflect the truth, goodness and beauty of God's kingdom. Tragically, the church has largely neglected the second part of our mission. And today, Christians have little influence on their surrounding cultures. Join us on this podcast as a rediscover what it means for each of us to disciple the nations and to create Christ honoring cultures that reflect the character of the living God.

Well, welcome again,

everybody to another episode of ideas have consequences. This is the podcast of the disciple nations Alliance. My name is Scott Allen, and I'm joined today by my my co workers and friends, Dwight Vogt, John Baltimore, Luke Allen. And we are so thrilled to have as our guest today, Dr. Brian fikkert. Brian is the founder and the president of the Chalmers Center for Economic Development. And most folks know, Brian, for being the lead author of when helping hurts how to alleviate poverty without hurting the poor and yourself. Brian, is just wonderful to have you with us today. Thanks for for coming on.

Great to be with you today.

Scott, I'm so indebted to DNA for all they've done in the ways that your thinking is impacted me. So it's a great joy to be with you. Well, thanks

for saying that. Brian, we're humbled, humbled to have you say that and yeah, so as Brian mentioned, we we have a friendship that goes back many years with, with Brian and with the Chalmers center and Brian's co author, Steve Corbett, who used to be our colleague at food for the hungry many years ago. And it was just such a rich time for all of us, as we were kind of growing in our understanding of biblical worldview, poverty and community development. But just a little bit more about Brian, before we before we jump in, Brian is author of a number of books, in addition to to when helping hurts in fact, his most recent book is called becoming whole while the why the opposite of Poverty isn't the American dream. And I'm looking forward to talking with you a little bit about that book as well. Brian, he is highly educated. Man Brian is he's earned his doctorate his PhD in Economics from Yale University. And, I mean, honestly, Brian, who hasn't earned their PhD from Yale University. So Well, the

truth of the matter is, I feel like I got a second PhD since I left Yale in the second one is far more value than the first one.

I want to talk to you about that I never asked you and I know we were talking before you joined us about it, which is I would love to hear more of your story. And you know, because not everyone is, you know, gets into Yale and much less earns a PhD from Yale and then, you know, we our connection has been in Christian Community Development, you know, over the years and we've just been so humbled to, to get to know you, but I just I want to say this as we start to, to our listeners and our friends who are listening and thank you for for tuning into the podcast. But you know, as I have been in, in Christian ministry, for for, you know, my whole career basically, I found it exceedingly rare I you know, to to, to meet Christian brothers and sisters who are prominent or running important ministries or writing really important books like Brian has that who are truly Kingdom minded. In other words, there, there there are people who aren't in it to create a big name for themselves or their organizations. They'll kind of bend over backwards to support your cause to link arms with you to show care and concern for you. And Brian, you truly are that kind of a person. You're Kingdom minded. You're, you're just you I can cite many cases where you have just done amazing things to bless us as individuals in our ministry. And I just I've I it is that's such Your blessing to me, it's just such a gift for you to live out your faith in that way as a Christian leader. And I just want to acknowledge that because Well, Scott,

to the extent that I do that, that actually believe it or not goes back to Darrell Miller. And Randy hoch. Early on, when the Chalmers center was was getting started, we were trying to find some people to hire. And I remember there's one conversation in particular I had with them. And I couldn't see them, of course, that this is before zoom. This is back in the dark ages, we had running water, but you know, in stuff. So I was a young professor and young guy trying to figure some things out. And so one day I was on the phone with Randy Hogue, who was then the president of food for the hungry and and Darrell Miller. And I said to them, brothers, I need to hire somebody who understands microfinance. And in really can come at it from a Christian perspective. And there was this awkward dead silence on the other end of the line. And finally, they spoke up and said, Brian, we know who that person is, he's currently employed at food for the hungry. And his name is Ross mask. And if it's God's desire for him to go to the Chalmers center, we want to be about the kingdom more than about our own organization. And so let's explore that together. And then Russ was the first person I actually hired at the Chalmers center. And he's dramatically impacted my thinking and but a part of what caught me was that kingdom approach that you folks had, I thought, Oh, my word. So that's how you do it. You just care about the whole thing and not yourself. And so it's a huge testimony to me early on.

Well, you thanks for saying that. Yeah, Randy hoped the former president of FH was he was really, that was very much his mindset and heart. And I was also very impacted and deeply appreciative of him for that, of course, Darrow the same, but Brian, you really pick that up? And you really demonstrate that and it's just, it's, it just is a joy? So thank you, brothers. Well, you know, there's so much we want to talk about. And I think today, we'd really like to kind of focus in on on just the topics of biblical worldview, and how, you know, kind of biblical truth biblical principles can really lead to human flourishing. And, you know, these are areas that we care a lot about together, Brian, but I actually would love to hear I'd love to start with just going back and hearing more of your story, you know, if you don't mind sharing with us, and with our listeners, kind of who you are, you know, Where'd you grow up? How did you end up at Yale? And then how did you end up in, in a place where you're on a podcast with us, like, that's kind of crazy. So

it's been quite a journey. So I'll try to be concise. But so I grew up in in rural Wisconsin, a little village, and 1000 Dutch people are related to each other end. So my father was pastor of a church there. And from an early age, I mean, it's a little hard to explain why to be honest with you, but from a very young age, probably before the age of six or seven, for somehow somehow I felt called to work amongst the poor. And so it's just been a lifelong calling. I think. I was blessed. My father was very much on mission, and was always trying to advance Christ's kingdom and then my mother's side of the family, for generations for Salvation Army officers all the way back to the founding of the Salvation Army. And so I've got this Presbyterian pastor father, but then the Salvation Army thing going on. I think somehow, all that combined, just give me a heart for the poor heart for service a heart for Christ's kingdom. I, when I went to college, I was very good at mathematics and discovered economics as a field that uses a lot of math. And I discovered economics was a field that you could use to help the poor. I thought, This is great. This is the answer. So I've got this mathematical ability that can use economics as a vehicle for mobilizing that and behalf of things I care about. And so in God's grace went to a small Christian college, but in God's grace was able to get into a doctoral program at Yale, I think they had an affirmative action quota for rednecks from rural Wisconsin and I got in on that, I certainly was not the smartest person there and in God's grace was able to study international economics, international trade and finance and what they would have called in those days third world development, so I thought I was going to be involved in global policymaking I was going to work in a place at the World Bank or something and run around the world and try to make policies better. When I finished graduate school, covenant College, a liberal Christian liberal arts college and look up mountain George or both my older brother and sister had gone Contact me. So would you be interested me and professor here? And I said, Absolutely not. I will never ever teach a small Christian college especially not yours. I said a little more diplomatically than that. But that was the essence of it. But

just just really quickly, why why Brian on that? I'm kind of curious. Yeah, you're small.

So just to smile. Yeah, I had these visions of being a global policymaker. And, you know, there were more Well, there was not even an Economics Department at covenant College, and only 1000 students at the place. And so So, in God's providence, I took a job at University of Maryland, just outside of Washington, DC. So I was able to do consulting at the Royal Bank, and so on. And I was also able to do the academic thing, I was really enjoying research in those days. And you know, there were more professors at the University of Maryland, in the economics department than there are today at covenant college as a whole. It's covenant was a long ways away. But the Lord, there's, there's a purpose to the story that I want everyone to hear. The Lord was working on me, of course, he's always working on us. But but three things happened. One is I was growing increasingly disenchanted with how economists think of what a human being is economists reduced the human being to rational material, completely autonomous, that is independent creatures. And so human flourishing looks like consuming more stuff. And the way that you consume more stuff is you really help the poor consumer stuff that you either give it to them, or you help them to be empowered economically. And if they're empowered economically, they can earn more income if they earn more income, than they can buy more stuff. And so that's kind of the story of the American dream. So I was increasingly disenchanted with that I was studying India and the idea that there was nothing spiritual going on in poverty, that there were no world view issues going on in poverty made no sense to me. So that's all kind of percolating in me. The second thing that happened is I was an elder in my church, and I was assigned to help our deacons who were assigned to care for the poor, I watched how our deacons cared for the poor. And they basically reduced the poor to spiritual beings, if the poor just repent of their sins, all of the well, if there was never any possibility of the legacies of racial injustice, it was all just you're a sinner. And so really, my profession is reducing the poor to the physical, my church's reducing the poor to the spiritual, and neither of those really made sense to me. And so the third thing happened, I taught a Sunday school class about the local church. And I'd like to tell you that 40 days of prayer and fasting went into that, it was more like, crowd, I've got to teach Sunday school tomorrow, I better get a book. So if you're Christian bookstore, grab that book off the shelf. And so they'll teach this was a book about the doctrine of the local church and the process of teaching that I just fell in love theologically, with what the local church is, it's, it's the body and pride and fullness of Jesus Christ. It's, it's the primary manifestation, that of the kingdom of God on earth, and, and Jesus ministered to whole people, he brought my profession of economics and my church, like churches dalje together to start to treat people like bodies and souls, right. And so that was really exciting to me. And so, one afternoon, I wrote a letter to covenant college and said, somebody start a program that would help undergraduates to think about poverty in a more holistic way. And somebody should start a center that would equip churches to be what the scripture is called it to be amongst the poor. And so the college said, How about you? How about now, I said, not mean that now. But my wife said, I had to go. So we came. And that was really it was 25 years ago. And we came in, quite frankly, I didn't know what I was talking about. The sum total of what I had was that, and the Lord introduced me to some folks who held a conference in Southern California. And at that conference, one of the guys who did devotions was a guy named Randy Hogue. And I really liked what he was saying. And I thought, okay, I don't know what I'm talking about. But I want to learn from this guy, because there's enough connecting points here that that I think we're kind of close enough on the same page, and he can teach me and so that, that began my relationship with Randy and then Darrow and Steve Corbett Ross mask, and so food for the hungry, and eventually disciple nations Alliance, were really part of mentoring me very early on. I knew what I was doing.

Hi, friends. Thanks again for joining us today. If you're enjoying this discussion with our special guest, Dr. Brian fikkert. Please consider sending this episode to a friend. If you'd like me would like to learn more about God's purposes for your life and how to see the world through a biblical worldview. Head over to our flagship online training course the kingdom iser training program previously known as Coram Dale, which we just created a brand new and improved simple to use website for the kingdom iser courses were created to help Christians live out their mandate to make disciples of all nations, starting with themselves and working out from there. I would recommend this course to any Christian who wants to stop living in a sacred secular divide that limits their faith to only some areas of life. If you're interested in signing up for the kingdom iser training courses, which by the way, are totally free, just head over to this episode's landing page, and you'll see a link on there. On that page, you can also find more information about our guests, including his books website, and further information. Again, that's the episode landing page, which is linked in the description below.

It's so interesting. I'm curious,

Brian. First of all, that's fascinating. For some reason that curious that you went back to Chalmers and said you guys need to do this or covenant. But But you did. Yeah. Well, can you remember one time where you you talked to Darrow Randi, and there was a worldview like aha moment or some break down your thinking?

Yeah, so I would say that, um, you know, they were such gentle people that I think they probably wanted to scream at me, and they didn't. So I think they kind of snuck things in slowly. And so I it's a little hard for me to say exactly one conversation, but I do remember this. You know, I got to know Steve Corbett is part of that relationship. And then we hired Steve Corbett was the second person, I think we hired the Schomburg Center, the second senior hire. And Steve came in. And he'd really been mentored by Darrow. And so I kind of got mentored by Darrell indirectly through Steve. And I remember one day, Steve looked at me and said, Brian, our God is a deeply relational God, and he's deeply wired human beings for relationship. And so I kind of, you know, I would say early on kind of had the body soul thing, that that was a thing. But the relational dimension was completely oblivious to. And so So I would say that it was really that for me, that was huge. I, my understanding of that has continued to grow in. Certainly, that journey isn't over yet. But I would say that piece for me was was the, the thing and it took me a long time. Yes, Steve, was kind of a very patient, mentor and disciple er, and so he kind of kept applying it in all these different settings. I was like, oh, that's what that means over there. Oh, that's what that means. Oh, okay. And so I would say I really the primary thing would be related the relational nature human beings. I probably got that from Darrell. Through Steve, and then. And then a number of years ago, I was reading a book about the Trinity. And in that book, it's the author was trying to say, look, a lot of significant people throughout history, even recent history really emphasize the Trinity. They went on this long thing about Francis Schaeffer and the Trinity. I thought, Oh, this is Darrell. Darrell got this from Francis Schaeffer. And so I've continued to learn over time, the trees from which I'm flatland, yeah.

Yeah, no, it's so true. We are really indebted to Francis Schaeffer in so many ways, you know, so much of the thinking goes back to him. And of course, you know, beyond that, right, people like Abraham Kuyper and people that were feeding back to your Dutch heritage, Brian, you know, the people were feeding into, to Francis Schaeffer, you know, there's such a rich school of thought there. You know, I know one of those people is Nancy Pearcey, you know, and she talks about the Trinity is the I think she uses the phrase, the Rosetta Stone. It's like the Rosetta Stone of Christian social thought, if you understand the Trinity understand Christian social thought. And I've always thought if it's not a very intriguing idea, this, you know, idea. And that's true, you know, there's something incredibly powerful about just understanding the relationship before the beginning of everything between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. So

and you know, it's really the secular world, if you will, is catching on to this. So there's this whole field called The Science of Happiness that's exploded in the past 20 or 30 years and

actually very unhappy.

very unhappy. And we're all wondering, well, why because we've gotten the stuff, you know, American, we have the stuff, but we're increasingly miserable. And so it's really, I think, a very teachable moment and COVID It's been a very teachable moment, you know, when I speak a stamp and say to people, well, what was so bad about COVID? I, I didn't lose my job. And I still had my income. So I could still buy the stuff. What's the problem? And then I'll go well, we were so lonely. I said, Exactly. We were lonely. It's because We're hardwired for a relationship. And so, so it's this stuff isn't that isn't the thing. And so it's really provided that I think a lot of the Western civilization is just going Oh, my word. We've missed the boat anthropologically here. It's a great moment to speak into that.

It's really good thought, Brian.

Brian, give us a sense of how these ideas of worldview have caught on academically among students at covenant. And what is it? Is it a different? Is it a different framework that you use today to teach than maybe it did back in the 90s? And also, yeah, anything about Chalmers and how it's going with churches in taking these on if there's a, if there's an example of a church who's really done it well, and applying in its community, we'd love to hear

it. Yeah. So certainly, I'm teaching in different ways now than I was when I got here, and even different ways than it was five years ago. I know, when you do the Strength Finders thing, my my top strength thing is learner. I like to learn. And I'm just always trying to grab things, and you try to figure out what those things mean, and how they fit together. And then most of my reading, and speaking, quite frankly, just a diary of what people are teaching me, I don't think I've had a unique thought my entire life. I think, um, you know, young people today, have a deep sense that something is wrong. You know, when I first began teaching a long time ago, we were pretty confident people in America, you know, I was probably overly confident. And I think, you know, it's been a journey. But I think probably pretty early on my implicit assumption was that the goal was to turn Uganda into America, or to turn America's inner cities into the suburbs, and it's taken me a long time to get out of that framework. It didn't happen overnight. I think today's young people, there certainly is a loss of confidence. I mean, to the point that they're not sure there's even truth. And so that's very, very different kind of thing to very different kind of students than I used to have. At the same time. I'm finding myself very optimistic actually, about our young people. Because I think as as we are discovering, and the we certainly includes me, a fuller story, a fuller gospel, a different understanding of what human flourishing is and how to achieve it. It resonates with students because it's true. And so there's a sense in which when I'm speaking to my students, right now, they're often in tears, not well, it could be my teaching is bad. But they're, they're often in fears going. Why didn't I ever hear this before? And I just say, Well, you know, friends, I've only learned I was raised in the church, in, in yet many of the things that I'm sharing with you right now are things I've only learned very recently. And so I think there's joy in the room, there's a sense of, oh, there's a better story, there's a better story. And it doesn't mean I have to throw out everything that I learned in the household I was in or in the church I was in, there's truth in everything I've learned. But there's more. And that that more has to do with the relational nature of human beings and the relational nature of our God. I make a quick example, a number of years ago, somebody said to me, Brian, I'm going to say a few words, I want you to tell me what's your emotional reaction to these words? Well, I'm Dutch and a Presbyterian. So emotions just aren't. That's just a part of the possibility set. So so the first thing give me a few words that finally they said, God. And the emotions that came to me were the same emotions I had, when the principal of the Christian school that I grew up in, walk down the hallway. You know, he was basically a good guy. And he basically cared for me sort of brought a sure didn't want to hang out with him. He was kind of like the law. And it was the law in the right direction. But it wasn't, Oh, I can't wait to go hang out with this guy. And, and, you know, I think in more recent time here, I've discovered things people have taught me just, again, the relational nature of God and the fact that we're actually united to the very person of Jesus Christ, that we're somehow organically connected to Christ. And he brings us into the fellowship of the Trinity. That's pretty good. And that's feels better than just the grumpy principal. And so, as I share that with my students, they're like, oh, it's different from what I thought this is better. It's not just the grumpy principle. It's a manual God dwells with us. And, and we're actually united to him, and we're in fellowship with Him. And it's such a better story. And so, so I'm sorry if I'm the answer your question very concisely, but I'm, I'm emphasizing those features more and more with my students, it's connecting with them. And my, even the pedagogy that I'm using is changing. It's less lecture. It's more dialogue, it's more community, it's more, me being vulnerable, all that different. You asked for an example of us churches or churches changing. My favorite story is actually of a church in Togo. Togo is a small country in in West Africa, very, very, very poor. It's at the bottom of everything. And the Chopra center was working with a very, very poor church there, that was about a month, sorry, an hour drive off the paved road, and you'd have to go down this dirt road. And when the rains came, the rotor wash out, you couldn't get through and all this. So we were working with a very, very, very poor church. They're the people they're living on, certainly less than two hours a day. And we just introduced them to God's story. And this is what DNA does. creation, fall redemption, consummation, who aren't you in that story? Well, God has made you as a priest ruler, to spread the rain and worship of God for the whole earth. And He wants you to do that right now in your village. We walk them through some simple tools to help them to imagine how they could bear witness to Christ's kingdom in their village, it right now has set these very poor people. They went out in their project, I know that, in some of your work, you've talked about seed projects. And this would be sort of a kind of a glorified seed project, so to speak, in just get people moving, and then went out and they're repairing the roads, they're out there digging, and then they're filling in the potholes. And they're pulling up the weeds and they're chopping down the brush with the snakes on the side of the road. They're doing all this work. And the whole village comes out with sits all these people from the church, what are you doing here? They said, Oh, we serve a king, and King range over the whole universe. And he's placed us as stewards over his world. And so instead of waiting for somebody else to come fix the road, we decided God called us to fix the road. So the whole village comes out, and their whole builders out there fixing the road. So this is you know, this is the center of witchcraft and voodoo and the whole world. By the way, it's you got all these people who are coming who, you know, five minutes ago, were worshipping demons, were not coming out to fix the road to worship Yahweh. And there's a witch doctor from a neighboring village, who's there visiting, he's watching this. And he says to this church, I will give you land in my village, if you will plant a church like this in my village, because I want this king to reign in my village, too. So you've got witchdoctors helping with church planting? It's a good day at the office for the kingdom of God. So we're just living under the right story. There's no outside resources, no outside anything. It's just helping people to live into the right story. God's redeeming story. That's it.

Beautiful example. Thank you. My daughter served on the mercy ship in Togo about 10 years ago. So I know a little bit about Oh, that's great. Yeah. Yeah.

So that's so great. Well, Ryan, I just graduated

while they still need to work on the airport bathrooms and Togo is International Airport. It's interesting, Brian, I love that story, too. Because, you know, you talked about relationship and and I, you know, I've read your books. And I remember way back your book with Ross, you wrote one early on, and then I think helping hertz followed that. But in both cases, you gave a chapter to relationship and unpacking that a little bit. And, and of course, we think about relationship with man will obviously relationship with one another. And you emphasize that and you unpack that a bit, and then relationship with God. And that's sort of in Well, that's the spiritual and you grew up with that, of course, he walks down the hallway with the keys, you know, this idea of relationship with the with with the physical world, not just in the sense of picking up trash but, but having a rule you call it a kingdom rule or reign over? That's kind of a new idea. It seems like not only for the togo church, but for the US church. We see it as just Oh, that's my job. I go to work every day. i What have you seen in that whole understanding of relationship?

Yeah, it's, I would say, it's probably the one that people are understanding the least. And it's actually the one that occupies most of our lives because we do go to work every day. And it's actually really hard to get this concept across. In fact, I was just at a major conference in and I I have been interacting with some of the people in that conference by email since then. And, you know, I finally said, brothers, we're missing something here on the relationship to creation, you know, these brothers would have said, yes, the Bible teaches we have a relationship to creation. But the way that they were conceiving of that was that we should go out and look at nature a lot. And that's part of it. That is part of it. But they were very much viewing this as sort of get back to nature. And yeah, maybe take care, but maybe pick up the trash. But there's a much broader idea in Scripture. And, you know, Scott mentioned Abraham Kuyper earlier. And this is certainly something he would have emphasized but others as well. I've been heavily influenced by the reading of a gentleman named Greg veal, who is a professor at Westminster seminary. Now I think he's at reformed Theological Seminary. And, you know, Bill, amongst others, has argued that the Garden of Eden was actually a temple. That was a place that Not a cent, not a temple in the sense of like, the building of a temple. But a temple is simply a place where God and humanity dwell together in deep communion, and that what was going on in the Garden of Eden was that was the place where God dwells. And so God is everywhere. But he chooses to reveal Himself in particularly intense ways in certain locations. And and at the dawn of history, that location was the Garden of Eden. And so you know, Adam and Eve could hear the sound of God as you walk through the garden, in the cool of the day. And so God was present there. And so interesting, I don't know why it was obvious to everybody else. But somehow I missed this, but all the imagery, in the tabernacle in the temple, in the Old Testament of the Holy of Holies, the image, the imagery in there is all images from Eden. And so it was supposed to represent to the Israelites kind of eating restored a little bit, if you will, that God was dwelling there with the Israelites in the Holy of Holies, in a way that was somewhat analogous to how he was dwelling with Adam and Eve, in the temple. And so what does this have to do with the work? Well, Adam and Eve had a job to do in the garden temple in what Bill and others have shown is the imagery in Scripture suggests that Adam and Eve were priest rulers in the garden temple, they were supposed to guard and protect it, but they're also supposed to develop it through work. And then you know, we can talk about the cultural mandate, Genesis 128, and 29. Be fruitful and multiply increasing numbers of do the earth work is what we're called to do. But it's not just so that we can eat. It's partly, certainly it's partly so that we can eat and that we can take care of our physical needs. But it's more than that. You see Adam and Eve, as priest rulers were to extend the knowledge of God's presence and rain to the whole earth. And so that there's a sense in which the Garden of Eden was supposed to expand over the whole earth as Adam and Eve cultivated and developed it just suddenly work isn't just a means to an end of getting stuff. That's how economists think of it, by the way, in economics, work is a necessary evil. It's not good, it's inherently bad. The only reason you work is to get the income to get the stuff. And so the ideal for the economist would be that somehow you'd win the lottery. And you could sit on the beach all day and have people take care of you but you never executed to produce anything. It just shalom, they wouldn't use that language. But Shalom was basically then the beach and don't do anything, have people feed you all day. That's the good life. Well, that's ridiculous. Because in the, in the biblical account, work is one of the primary means that we worship God. And so there's meaning inherent to the activity of work. It's worship, it's spreading the rain, in knowledge of God's presence, the whole earth. It has incredible dignity and meaning and purpose. But we've lost that we lost that in the West. Most people around the world don't have it. And so recovering that is so central to helping all of humanity, both rich and poor. rediscover what human flourishing looks like China. It's a long answer your

questions interesting you say that, but But it's but but you also find that you give somebody work to do and it's meaningful and purposeful. And they come out of it with such satisfaction, not for their paycheck, not because they now can buy five hamburgers instead of one. But there's just this innate, God put satisfaction that comes from purposeful work, you know, and so that's the That's the call. That's the echo of the transcendent. You know,

you know, we were talking about this, Brian just on a podcast, I think two weeks ago, and Luke brought up an analogy that I thought was perfect on this, and I'll share it with you too. Or Luke, if you want to share it, I just because I love cooking shows, right? And you know, now we're in the golden age of these great cooking shows, you know, Iron Chef, right. So if you if you've, if you've watched Iron Chef, right, and the so it starts with kitchen Stadium, which is kind of perfect in some ways, right? I mean, it's immaculate, and it's got this incredibly stocked refrigerator and all you know, everything you could ever want, you know, is there to, but it's got a purpose, right? The purpose is to allow a chef to come in, and then create something amazing, you know, and, and so Luke was saying that's kind of analogous here to what you're talking about where the Garden of Eden is kind of like kitchen stadium. I know, this is kind of crass. But let's Yeah. And then here comes the chef's, well, these are people made in God's image, right, that are supposed to do something to apply that creativity with all of this amazing thing that God has made. And when they do that, they're fulfilling kind of their very nature, right. And there's just such joy and enjoyment that comes from these great inventions. And so, you're right, it's not just going back to your earlier statement, it's not just coming into kitchen stadium to look at it. And to appreciate it and go, How beautiful is this? Wow, look at that stainless steel. Look at that. Look at that full, you know, fish fillet there. And it's amazing. You know, there's a little bit of trash, let's pick up some trash, but no, you're missing the whole point. Kind of the whole point here is to make something right, you know, so, but I do think that when we do, yeah, no, I

agree with you, Ryan. I think that's the weak link still. In our theology?

Yes. Do I agree and dominion itself that word isn't gotten such you know, really? It's been so vilified. Right? You know, so I'm Hollander

saving it though. Yeah.

You know, the, you know, I think you know, many this is certainly what I'm about to say certainly is not unique to be it's things that people have taught me, but the idea that culture is part of the created order. So a lot of times when people hear the word term creation they think of, okay, it's the natural world in the Garden of Eden, it's rocks and trees and birds and alligators or something. And it certainly is that, but it's also that, that as we are working, we're unfolding and unpacking the potentialities that were there in Genesis one, we're making them out of nothing. We're working with the raw material that was there in the Scripture actually indicates that Christ is actively sustaining and redeeming the whole thing. And so culture is part of the created order. It's something that certainly human beings have a role in, but we're unpacking potentialities that God has placed there and that he continues to order. And so it should give us a sense of stewardship. Yes, over the natural world, but also over culture over institutions. And I'm having a hard time with that right now. Because I'm so frustrated by most of our cultural institutions that I just want to run. I don't want to be involved in politics right now. I don't like anybody in so so I want to run but but God says, No, go be a steward of that, to have that. You know, Romans 13, the government is God's servant to do you good. It's so shouldn't learning how to steward and care for cultural endeavors is an important part of what we're called to.

That's a great point, Ryan, we tend and society today around the world to use culture to divide and to say cultures are different. But there is there is a God created culture, where stewardship is a key part of that, you know, we use words today, like agency and things that, that are affiliated with that and those are so so important. And so any observations in along that line about how Christian NGOs are doing today and other organizations to kind of help to stimulate agency and stimulate stewardship rather than solving problems for someone instead of teaching them and helping them to have that stewardship have that joy and have that deep satisfaction that we talked about that comes only from Christ when you do those things, and you can take you can take that kind of stewardship and ownership? How, what's the overshoots encouraging or discouraging and that whole trend?

Yeah, we're still close. We're still all in process in we're still all growing. I love this particular story. Matthew Frost was the former leader of Tearfund, CEO of Tearfund, a Christian leading development agency out of the United Kingdom that's very committed to the local church, very committed to giving God's people in any setting a vision for His kingdom, and then encouraging them to use their own talents, their own gifts, their own resources to bring that kingdom to bear in their own setting. And Matthew said to me, you know, Brian, when I go to a village, this is what success looks like to me. Nobody thanks me for anything. And nobody asks me for anything. He said Tearfund is working there. But we want to work behind the scenes behind God's people who are already there in such a way that the community doesn't even see Tearfund. The community just sees God dwelling in the local church and his people there. And as they spread the Good News to kingdom, that's the message and that that the local people don't even know about to your fund. So don't thank them. They don't ask them for anything. I think you know, it's just a great example of how it's possible to foster positive change without taking over. Another example is the ministry of reconciled world I know Darrow Miller used to be on their board, I don't know if he still is but you know, reconcile world has seen some amazing things happen in closed access countries, countries where foreigners, and they haven't even really allowed, you can openly share the Gospel. And so it's been there's been some interesting experiments, basically, with just very poor churches and very poor villages who don't have access to the outside world who caught a vision for Christ's kingdom, starting to live into that. And some amazing things happened. And I think the work of of DNA is also part of that, you know, I continue to hear good stories around the world about your work, but you know, there's one that sticks out every time that I hear Worldvision talking about worldview, or they have a name for their part, this particular initiative and powered something or other African worldview, power. Sorry, like, Oh, hold on. I know where that came from. I want to hear the guys in DNA, get credit for that. And so, so you had a lot of influence there indirectly. And it's really precious.

It's really exciting to see real vision right now. Yeah, picking up kind of all that you've been championing. And we've been championing Brian and really running with it as one of their top strategies right now. So,

so exciting to see you. It is it's happening. It's happening. There's almost a bad stuff happening. But there's good stuff happening.

Brian, Brian, you're a teacher? How about giving us some advice? Yeah, I see your face on the Zoom picture here. Anyway, no, I'm thinking because what you're talking about is the turf on the illustration is perfect. It's it's, it's, it's actually bringing a way of thinking about the kingdom about God's intentions to a community, so that they embrace God's intentions for themselves, and then start to live that out. And that includes taking dominion over their lives and over their crops and over the road, whatever. That that's this is a really challenging message to communicate to people. And that's what the DNA is about, really, how do we help people grasp not not to say there's nothing to do with material resources? We're not not against them. But how do we talk about this? And communicate this idea of we call it worldview? What do you do? What do you do, Brian? How do you do it?

I write books that I hope people will buy. I think what one of my frustrations in life is that every everybody's heard of when helping hurts, but not that many people have heard of our book called Becoming holed, becoming homeless, so much better than when helping hurts people go by that I'll give you a free. It's so much better. It's better just because we, you know, continue to learn and to grow in and it's not antithetical to when helping hurts, it's just more. And you know that the subtitle of that book is because the opposites are why the opposite of Poverty isn't the American dream. And what we're saying in that book is, there's two primary worldviews that shaped most of the space of poverty alleviation. One is Western naturalism or Western secularism, the human being is a physical creature. The second is evangelical Gnosticism. And that's a term that I turned I got from Darrow Miller, in which we view the body and the soul as separate. The primary goal is to get the soul to heaven. This world doesn't really matter very much. And so, without a story for this life, we just revert to the only story we know it's the story of the American dream, I think How most American churches living, we get our, our soul saved. Well, if you believe in eternal security, then as I do, then that that's done, you know, game over? Well, you know what if that happens when you're young? What are you going to do the rest of your life, you got to get out of bed on Monday morning, the church has given us a story for Monday through Saturday. So you just revert the only story, you know, so everybody's out there pursuing the American Dream conference or solace, you're gonna go to heaven. Well, that's not the story. And it's doesn't work. It's not for human flourishing. And so. So what do I do I write books that I hope people will read, I come on podcasts like this, and I continue to try to communicate these messages. There's a better way of being in the world, there's a different calling, there's a different wiring than simply that evangelical Gnostic wiring, it's a relational wiring, and it's got more meaning to it, it's got more purpose to it. It's what human flourishing looks like. I'm optimistic, you know, I used to be kind of a pessimistic person. I'm not anymore. I'm very optimistic because Jesus has risen from the dead. And this story is the only story that works. It's only story. That's true. And people are figuring it out. I mean, if I, if I were to stand right now in an audience of secular psychologists right now, and say, you know, the human being is wired for relationship with God, Self, others and creation, they would all agree with me, everyone, they use different language that say, Brian, is that a god? Can you talk about a higher power? Instead of creation? Can we say purpose and meaning and work? But everybody believes this right now? Jonathan Hite, professor of social psychology at NYU, he's all over this stuff. He's, you know, he's not a believer. If you go to Harvard, the Center for Human Flourishing, Tyler Vander, we'll, all their metrics are about what we're talking about, including meaning and purpose in work. Everybody's figuring this out. We just got to get on board.

Brian, just a quick, you know, I we are fans of Jonathan Hite too, and had a chance to exchange some emails with him and just really impressed with his, you know, he's not a Christian. He's a he's a, he's a Jew, you know, who's kind of a second or do you all think he's, he's very sympathetic to a lot of Christian ideas, you know, but anyways, really fans of his work. But I was just reading this morning, just to not to challenge your point. But just I was wrestling with this myself, I was just reading this very difficult and sad article about San Francisco. That's not unlike, you know, our big cities across the west coast and increasingly around the country, you know, and it's dying. This, the inner city of San Francisco is dying and peed businesses are leaving. They just, there's ideas there that are driving the city into the ground. And one of these I mean, one of these ideas, or one of these consequences of ideas was they've just got this exploded homeless population. And what are they doing? They being the city officials, the city government there, they're, you know, putting them into hotels, you know, for free, you know, the hotels can't run their businesses in that way. So the hotels are leaving, they're giving them free drugs and alcohol. Yeah, more people more homeless have died in San Francisco from overdoses than from COVID During the lockdowns. And I thought of your book when helping hurts and I thought, they're trying to help, but they're hurting. They're literally killing these people. Now, you wrote to a Christian audience. And I think part of the reason that when helping hurts was such a huge success was again was just God's timing. And the way I look at timing was, you know, for when I first got into Christian relief in development, local churches weren't doing it. They were giving money to food for the hungry or World Vision to do it, right. But they weren't doing it. And then something changed in the early 2000s. And I think a lot of churches said, hey, you know, we don't need to give money to food for the hungry or World Vision, we can go do this ourselves. We can get buy a ticket and go to Togo, and do community development work. And so they started to do that. But they made all these mistakes of just, you know, immediately say, oh, there's some poor people. Let's give them some stuff. And they won't be poor anymore, right? Let's build Oh, they need they need a they've got you know, they need a pit latrine. Let's build them a pit latrine. Right. So they were making these mistakes by doing things for people. You know, this gets back to our discussion about dominion. But when you wrote your book with Stephen, just at that time, when people I think that that first generation of Christians were making all those mistakes, and then kind of seeing it like gosh, I I think we're actually rich. You know, we want to help we want to do what's right. We care for the poor, but it seems like we're hurting. And then boom, here comes this book. Here's why. You know, it was perfect. I mean, it was it was truly a God thing and totally that but I do Do I do wonder like if there's a whole new group of people out there in our cities that don't have this message, and they're still hurting the poor? What do you? It is heartbreaking to me. What do you say about that? You know, so yeah. So

So you see, you're challenging me. And you're correct that made. I don't want to say, look, everybody's come to Jesus, we all got it all figured out. That's not true.

Right? No, I appreciate your optimism. I'm optimistic person too. So I'm not cutting. Yeah.

So horrible things going on. And at one level, I mean, one could argue the entire country is going into take, I mean, I mean, it's pretty hard to look at American civilization don't go, Oh, gee, this is going? Well. It's not, it's not, I simply think that what is happening is people are slowly discovering that it's not working. And as they're serving, it's not working. There are other people like Jonathan Hite filling, here's why it's not working. And so you've got a lot of people in the field of the science of happiness, and also social psychology, or sorry, positive psychology, they're very similar fields, who are all starting to say things that's sure sound awfully Trinitarian and relational. It's so so you got countervailing forces going on you, you've kind of got this discovery of relationship. And then you've got this very material thing. And it's all just a mess. There's no question. I'm optimistic just because I think God has wired his world in a certain way. And it works. And if you try, if you try to live in a different way, it doesn't work. I mean, we're already seeing it's really tragic. But there's a bigger really quick, countervailing force and all the the transsexual stuff right now, because people are finding out you know, what, when you try to change your gender go to work, and you're miserable. And so that's a pretty quick snapback of the realities of how God has wired his world. And so eventually, I just think good people start to find out, things don't work well, in so I'm hopeful. I think, again, the resurrection happened

we Yes, amen. No, amen. Aren't and I do think Christians need to be ready. And I'm so glad, Brian, that God's given you a platform that you can speak into people like Jonathan Hite or these these people that are coming to that conclusion going, Wow, the world really does have a certain shape and form. And we do best when we operate according to that givenness of the world that's around us. And maybe there's a God who's behind that. And, you know, I think Chris, you just need to be ready to say yes, that's correct. And you know, his son's name is Jesus Christ and, you know, be ready with some, some some answers for this. Because I do think you're right, I think people are kind of primed for this right now. Because things are, in some ways, so bad, like they've gotten driven into the ground. So you know, Scott,

a number of years ago, I was at a conference. It was a very, very, very secular conference, it was full of a bunch of social entrepreneurs, who most are from Silicon Valley. They're all trying to change the world. And, but from a very kind of secular framework, and I was so uncomfortable there. I mean, I you know, I'm fairly insecure. Anyways, in so just this, this was just not my crowd are just like, Oh, my word I'm dying here is in small groups, discussing these really weird books and things were supposed to read. And I remember my small group discussion, I finally said, You know, Friends, you're all working so hard to try to alleviate poverty, to have any hope. And where's your hope come from? Well, they went around and they're all discussing this. And finally the guy sit next to me who is this? You know, young hip, sophisticated Italian 30 year old filmmaker, looks at me and I can't mimic his accent but he says to me, Brian, what about you? Do you have any hope? And where's that come from? I want him to die. I'm like, Oh, my word I can hear the roosters crowing you know like

yeah don't fail don't think and it was so I just kind of I said, Look, you know, you're not all gonna like when I have to say, but I said I am a follower of Jesus Christ and many of you your experience of Christians has been us people you know people pointing your finger their fingers at you, people condemning you people acting holier than now, that's not really the gospel, the gospel is this or so, the good news is this and I said human beings are wired for relationship with God something like a real faster gives me a little bit of time, by describe the relational nature of human beings. And I said, you know, those relationships are all broken, and in cry They're all made whole again. And I held my me case I was like, I'm not I'm not like a brave person and the mind xiety was just be I was like, nauseous, I'm just like, wet is pouring off of me.

I can totally relate Brian, um, the sad Yeah, in you

know, in the kind of our small group ended I ran back to my, my, my room when I got my swimming trunks on call my wife and I said, Honey, just pray for me I feel just sick. But this was at a conference on a beach resort in Mexico was ridiculous. And I walked as far out as I could in the water to get away from people, which in my case is pretty far from six. But then, so So I've walked. So I'm way out there because I just like I don't want to be in your any people. And all of a sudden on the beach, there's this guy from my small group waving his hands wildly. And he says, Brian, Brian, Oh, are we middle alone? So I go walking in. And he's the head of some major secular Foundation. He says, Brian, I've never heard Christianity explain that way before. For relationships, I can feel that. That's true. And he said the way you described it was just so natural, almost like it was truth. We said, If I become a Christian do I have to believe in in 724 hour days of creation? And I said, No, you don't have to believe it. It's really, it's so he it's so you know, I don't know what the Lord did with that. But about five years later, I was at another conference. And I saw somebody who was his friend. And she said to me, he's never stopped talking about that conference and what you said to him, the former relationships, people can feel it. It's true, they know it. And so it's, it's, I think it's a it's, it's a I don't like the word angle, but it's an angle that we can use to create common ground to city people keen to feel this in you that you're longing for these things. The gospel is an answer to those longings.

Brian, thanks for sharing that's such a good stir, I feel like we should end on on that. But just quickly the for relationships, just touch on those for our listeners that might not be familiar with what you're talking about there. Yeah,

it's all it's all in the garden. You know, human beings are not just bodies. And we're not just bodies and souls. We're highly integrated Body, Soul relational creatures, that we're hardwired, for a relationship with God to walk and deep fellowship with God, not like me with the Christian school principal, at the different kind of a thing. He's our Heavenly Father. Yes, he's holding us close, we're his beloved children, relationship with self a sense of dignity and worth, not self worth, but worth because God has, has called us His royal priesthood, his holy nation, we bear his image, we have dignity, and worth not because we produce something, but just because of who we are. And we are pinnacle of the created order, relationship with others, deep communion, loving others, and being loved back by them. And then their relationship to creation, which we've talked about quite a bit already. It includes preserving and protecting the created order, but also unfolding unpacking it, through acts of, of work in service to God and humanity. And that's all we're wired for. And I believe, you know, this, this goes into the space of poverty alleviation. But it's really a shoe for all of us. There's a habitat, that's perfect for human beings to live in these bodies, Soul relational creatures, God placed us in a habitat that was conducive to human flourishing for who we really are. And, and that's the Garden of Eden where God dwelt in deep communion with human beings and human beings dwelt in deep communion with others. And out of that, we were called to extend the rain and worse with God's do work that's required for and so so when that woman walks into your church, asking for help with her electric build, the things that we do to help her flow out of our understanding of who she is and what human flourishing looks like. And when I can remember, in my to say to myself, she's a body soul, relational creature, who's hard wired, created and called to be a priest ruler. That's a different thing from Gee, should I give her money for her electric bill or not? Everybody's always asking me, should we give them money for the electric bill or not? Or should we give money to homeless person on the street corner? And those are important things to be asking? Certainly. But it's, it's so small compared to the story that in the drama that's present here, and all that's possible. And the cool thing in Scripture is that God hasn't abandoned his world. He hasn't abandoned creation. He hasn't abandoned us. And so where's it all going? Well, it's all go into a new creation and all the imagery In Scripture is that in that new creation, the conditions of Eden will be restored not in the sense that a primitive garden it'll be a flourishing city. But the first thing we read in about than revelation 21 is now the dwelling of God is with people. That's our longing for as you brought back into the garden temple, in some dwelling place have gotten out of that flows, living in right relationship with with ourselves and others in creation. And we can our old jobs back Revelation chapter five, says, you know, we're not floating around like ghosts for all eternity. Revelation, chapter five says that we will rain again on the earth in the new creation, as that royal priesthood, holy nation. And that's all waiting for us. But it's also now because Christ rose from the dead 2000 years ago and launches the new creation. So those of us who are in Christ, get restored. First, Peter says that we once again are that royal priesthood, that holy nation and a good friend of mine, Rusty Pritchard said, Brian, in Christ, we get our old jobs back. And so there's competing in purpose, not just in Genesis one, not just in Revelation 21. But right now, because we get our old jobs back today. It's a better way of being.

Yeah, it's such a helpful you know, this for relationships, Brian, are it's it's so helpful. And it's also I mean, because they existed in the Garden of Eden at the beginning. And they actually, you know, when when man fell, they weren't eliminated, right? They were just broken. That's it. And then and then that sets up the whole rest of of life, which is a restoration, right? It's a redemption or a restoration of all four relationships. And I think that's what's kind of been lost in our day, isn't it? Brian, you know, we, like you said evangelical churches focused on one of the four, you know, the relationship with God. And that's, obviously that's the, you know, in some ways, you could argue as the most important one, I didn't audition for all the other ones, right? So good for them, but they've looked neglected the other four or three. Now, you were saying economists, you know, the it's all you know, this, you know, its relationship to the material world, I suppose. And it's, you know, that's the only one that we need to fix. So,

what's your understanding of that relationship? Isn't communion with the material world? It's exploitation of the material world? Right, right.

So yeah, once you get rid of God, then it right, everything goes really bad. But and then, of course, you know, how do you see the if you're helping the poor? If you're seeking to really minister to the poor? How do you see them? That's the other thing I hear you saying that so important? Do you see them primarily as a soul that needs to be in relationship with God and nothing more good, that that's not the whole picture? Or do you see them as a mouth that just needs to be fed? You know, what I hear you saying is, you know, we've got to see them for who they really are in all of these relationships. And that's got to be the starting point for, for how we go about trying to help any kind of exit in a way that's going to make a difference in their lives. And I just am so grateful for you championing that just such such important message there.

What's all stuff that you folks have taught me?

Well, we're all learning together. I still feel like, don't you Brian, though, that we're still you know, what I think of our missions, joint missions, if you will, there's still a lot of work to do. Don't you feel like I mean, Oh, my word. I feel like we're still you know, there's still so many people that don't yet understand this, just to say,

I don't understand it. So I'm not I'm

not saying I get it all, either. I don't don't misunderstand. You're like, I've got this all wired in. But I boy, like we still have a long ways to go on this. Yeah,

I'd like to highlight two things that the out of what you just summarized, too. And, and I think, for me, this was brand new highlight of that. And it really speaks to me is adding culture to creation. So because right now we're really struggling, not so much with creation, but with what do we do with our culture? And you're saying, we are called to redeem culture, we're called to make it flourish? And how do we make the world of economics flourish. And that's just A Whole New Mind Blowing opportunity, which the church can engage with. And the other is I think of a lady that came into the church with a phone bill, when you tell me what God's grand story is for her. It informs what I do about that, that 10 Bill question, then hopefully answer, so I don't have to wonder in advance what to do I go, Who does she call to be? How do I respond in a way that calls her towards that?

That moves?

At least one step. So anyway,

you know, that Dwight, that's, you know, you're getting at something we after we wrote when helping hurts you what would happen is Steve or I would be at a conference somewhere. And people come up to us and say, okay, you know, I'm working on this island in the Pacific with this particular tribal group. And what do I do? Well, I don't know. I don't have a clue. yet. Maybe Yeah. People were asking very particular questions, you know, this particular fly is infecting our crops. What do we I don't know. So. So people clearly wanted more than when helping hurts was giving them. But what they wanted was sort of the answer to every particular situation they were in which of course, nobody can give them, I started to realize that people just didn't have the story to guide them. They didn't have a sense of what is the goal? And how does God typically go about achieving that goal. So that's really the story, you might call a theory of change God's theory of change, if you will, people don't know God's theory of change. And so what we need to do is to better articulate God's theory of change, if you will, so that people can have wisdom so that they can improvise that story in a wide range of settings. You can't pick up the Bible and say, Oh, Deuteronomy says this, Therefore, this is how I deal with that fly, fits infecting us in this island. The Bible isn't that specific. The Bible gives us prompts, if you will. instructions about how the world is wired about how God typically works about how human beings work. And then we're called to live into that story, picking up the prompts, if you will, from Scripture to then go improvise it. And so that's what became the book becoming whole. We said, when let's go deeper, and try to understand God's theory of change. We use the word theory of change the term to discuss because that's what's used in the field, a theory of change answers to questions, what's the goal? And how do you get there? But clearly, God's Theory of Change isn't just theory, it's the little one. That's true. It's so we're trying to say to people is that we can live into that story. And as we do, so, we won't know exactly what to do with that woman who's asking for help with her electric bill. But we'll know more than we did. If we didn't have the story. That's what we're trying to say.

Well, Brian, it's just, there's so much more we could talk about on my mind. The problem with these one hour podcasts is it's by the time you get to the end of it, your your brain is just already going 100 different directions. You don't want to just keep talking. So I I'm sure my my coworkers feel the same way. We would love to have you back, Brian, and just pick up the conversation and just just keep learning together. You're You're such a cherished and dear brother in Christ. And so, but I think we'll we'll bring it to an end here for today. And just thank you again for your time the book is becoming a whole why the opposite of Poverty isn't the American dream. That's another question I want to talk to you about next time we're together. Brian is just what do you mean by American dream? So we can talk about that. But, but yeah, Brian, I really appreciate this book and the way that you've really tackled this bigger story of this true story than the biblical story. And it's just

a joy to be with you brothers. And I just continue to learn and to grow, you know, was last night I was listening to a pot I was I'm sitting here my office right now my exercise bike is next to me. I don't really like using it very much. So one of the ways I did the pain is I listened to podcasts and so on. And last night, I was listening to podcasts, I realized that there's a whole dimension to the sacrament of baptism that I didn't understand until yesterday. Wow, that doesn't look better than I thought. So just we just got to keep learning and growing. It took

it is a blast. And you're right about that, Brian, it's not like oh, I now understand these things. It's it's CS Lewis ends his, you know, his fourth, or is his last book on the fourth one in the Chronicles of Narnia. The last battle with this image of heaven of and the famous line is further up and further in. And it's it's, you know, it's not there isn't an end to it. You know, it's just because there isn't an end to God himself, you know. And so there's just always going to be the joy of those kinds of discoveries. I didn't know that look at that. Oh, my gosh, how powerful is that? You know? So, anyways, I love that. Thank you, Brian. Thanks for being with us. You and thank You keep up the great work brother. Thank you for all you're doing. And thank you all for listening to another episode of ideas have consequences the podcast at the disciple nations Alliance.

Thank you so much for listening to this interview with Dr. Brian fikkert. If you'd like to learn more about Dr. fikkert, the Chalmers center or his books when helping hurts or becoming whole, just head over to this week's episode landing page, which is linked in the description. On that page. You can also find the transcript of the episode key quotes, chapters and more. Ideas have consequences is brought to you by the disciple nations alliance to learn more about our ministry you can find us on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter and YouTube or on our website which is disciple nations.org. Thanks again for listening to this episode of ideas have consequences.