[20] Mastering Lucid Dream Stability: Navigating the Waking-Dream Continuum

7:52PM Mar 10, 2025

Speakers:

Katie Love

Keywords:

Lucid dreaming

stabilization techniques

Heart body mind

dream yoga

lucid dream practice

dream recall

dream intention

dream stabilization

lucid dream methods

dream techniques

dream lucidity

dream state

dream experiences

dream practices

dream meditation.

Wanted to say, welcome to everybody. And also, if you're not already, please sign up for a nightclub. I'm going to put that link into the chat right here, and then Katie is going to take us into the poll.

Great. So are you going to bring up the poll? Just Yes? Okay, great. So we're going to bring up the poll. We've got three questions today. We always like to ask you guys a few questions just to get a sense of how the group is doing. And so Chelsea is going to bring that up in just a moment here. Great. So question one is I had my first lucid dream in the past month? Yes, no or unsure, are the response answers for that. Question two, I had at least one lucid dream in the past month. And question three, stabilization techniques are a part of my lucid dreaming practice. Great. So we'll just give a few moments for everyone to get their answers in on this poll. I

Okay, we're at 74% we'll give it another couple of moments. I Right?

I think we're you feeling good, 80% All right, we're gonna end the poll. So for the first question, zero out of 24 people, and I'm going to share the results as well. Zero out of 24 people had their first lucid dream in the last month. And then 21 out of 24 people said no, and then three out of 20 people said unsure. So for those folks that said unsure, as we mentioned in our groups, if you want to talk to us in the Q and A to see if we can explore your dream and see if you were lucid. Then we welcome you to do that. And then question number two, I had at least one lucid dream in the past month, so eight out of 24 people said yes, amazing. That's 33% that's awesome. And then 10 out of 24 people said no. And then six out of 24 people said, unsure. So that same invitation to explore that dream is open to you as well. And then the third question, stabilization techniques are part of my lucid dreaming practice. Six out of 24 people said yes. 10 out of 24 people said no, and then eight out of 24 people said unsure. So thank you so much for completing that poll with us. We think it's so fun to learn more about your practice and you and what's been going on in the last month. And if you were unsure about stabilization techniques are Katie is going to start to share about that.

Thank you, Chelsea, yes. So the focus for today is on lucid dream stabilization techniques. Lucid Dream stabilization techniques are methods or techniques that we use once we are already in the lucid dream, and we know that we're dreaming and the dream feels perhaps a bit unstable. So it may not always be the case when you become lucid in a dream that the dream feels unstable, or that you feel unstable in the dream, sometimes you'll become lucid, and it feels very vivid. It feels very stable, it feels clear, and you don't need to do anything, but often you might need to take a moment, or a few moments, to spend some time stabilizing that lucid dream. And the benefit of doing this is that it can create more vividness in the dream, it can create more clarity in your experience of the dream, and it can also increase the duration of the lucidity. So today, I'm going to be sharing a lucid dream stabilization method that I created, and then Chelsea will be sharing a method that is. Is from Claire Johnson, which is also quite effective method, and we're going to be weaving some content with some experiential aspects of these techniques as well. So this, my method, was actually inspired by lucid dream that I had back in August, where I was dreaming that I was on a stage, a big wooden stage in the middle of a forest, and I was teaching lucid dreaming stabilization methods to the audience. And in this dream, I was lucid, and each time I would share a different technique, the audience would respond by doing the technique in the moment, in the dream. And so I had this vast audience in this beautiful, forested scene that was all responding with action, with whatever I was speaking to. And it felt very satisfying and fulfilling to do it in this way. And Andrew holcheck actually entered the dream as well, and he encouraged me to create a structure or a framework around this stabilization method. And so I did that within the dream. And then when I woke up, I wrote it down, and CO created a bit with my dreaming self. And so that's what I'm going to be sharing and presenting with you all here today. So this stabilization method is called Heart body mind stabilization method, and it can actually go in any sequence, heart, body, mind, mind body, heart, body mind, heart. I will invite you all to just reflect on that for yourselves after I share the method about which sequence would be most appropriate for you, but I'm going to share it in the sequence that works best for me, which is Heart, Body, Mind. So the first layer of this stabilization technique is heart stabilization, and this is really about stabilizing the emotions and feelings of the heart within the dream. So as I take you through each piece of each layer, I'm going to invite you to actually practice it with me in the moment as well. So the first piece of heart stabilization is to once we become lucid in the dream, stay calm and relaxed. And I invite you to bring this sense of calm and relaxation through just taking a few deep breaths.

And as you're breathing deeply, feel yourself relaxing and coming into your center and

I feel that, yes, you are in a dream. This is a dream, and you can stay completely relaxed and centered in the context of this dream. You

and then notice your attitude about the dream, having a neutral and warm approach towards the dream, one in which you're not getting pulled into grasping or aversion to any of the aspects of the dream, but where you're simply having a neutral and warm attitude towards the dream. Ken Wilber calls this a pellucid approach, where there's a witnessing awareness, there's a lack of getting pulled into the story or pushing away aspects of the dream that we don't want. It's just a simple neutral and warm attitude towards the dream, and then place one hand over your heart as a way of connecting in more deeply with your heart, and just notice that you're here in this lucid dream, not just for yourself, but also to benefit others.

And feeling with these elements that you are now more emotionally stabilized within the dream. And so with this sense of emotional stabilization, we can now move into the next layer, which is body. Stabilization, working more with the physical sensations of the body within the dream. So the first aspect of this and you can now remove your hand from your heart. The first aspect of this is to keep your eyes moving so you can actually open your eyes and do this within the space that you're in. Just keep your eyes to where they're moving. When we're in a lucid dream, we're in rem and our eyes are moving, and they're actually moving in the waking state as well. This is why, when we're having when we're participating in a lucid dreaming study, that's one way that we communicate with the dream researchers is through the movement of our eyes. So just keep your eyes scanning your environment, and you can also rub your hands together. This is a great, very effective lucid dream stabilization technique. You can touch things in the dream scene. You can touch your dream desk or the dream wall or the dream ground. This is also very powerful for stabilizing the dream. You can whirl your arms. Get a little arm motion going. Kind of hard to do sitting at desks, sometimes in front of the computer, and you can stomp your feet. It's another great stabilization method. And then my favorite is what I call swim flying. So you can fly, but use your arms doing a breast stroke as you're flying. Somehow, for me, this method of flying is the one that is the most stabilizing. I think it has to do with the dynamic nature of the movement that I'm doing while I'm flying in this way, good. And so in general, you can do one of these. You can do multiple you want to sense into what would be most effective for you. And if one isn't working. Maybe switch to a different one and be creative in the moment with it as well. So then moving into the third layer. This is the mind stabilization techniques. And so now we're working with the thoughts and the mental constructs of the mind. The first layer of this is to recognize and say, I am dreaming. This is a dream, and to actually do this repeatedly throughout the dream, every 15 seconds or so, is what I recommend. But you can play with it in your own experience and see how frequently it works for you to do that, but that just keeps your mind continuously focused on the awareness that this is a dream so you don't get lost in the story of it. You can also say stability now or clarity now as a sort of command, a gentle command to your mind that you want the dream to be more stable or more clear, and you can sing mantra, I love working with the Dream Yoga mantra, Om ah, nu Ta ra in the dream as a way of stabilizing it. So just how when we're in the waking state and we're working with mantra, we're stabilizing our waking mind. Similarly, in the dream, working with mantra stabilizes the dreaming mind. So let's just for a few moments, chant the mantra together. Om ah, nu Ta ra, I'll put it in the chat. Oh, Chelsea, great. Put it in the chat already. Om, ah, nu, Ta ra, Om. Ah, nu, Ta ra, Om. Ah, nu Ta ra, Om ah, nu Ta ra, lovely. And so the last piece on the mind stabilization techniques is to recall your intention, remembering what the intention is that we set can be really grounding and stabilizing within the dream. It's a recognition that, oh, I have a purpose here. There's a reason that I'm here. What did I want to do? Okay, I'm going to carry that out now. I'm. Good, great. And I also want to say that so you can choose to do these in a sequence, like heart, body, mind. This can happen really fast in the lucid dream, so I won't, won't take much time to go through all three of those. You can also choose to integrate where you're doing three at the same time. So for example, I'm breathing deeply as a way of stabilizing my emotions at the same time. I'm rubbing my hands together, and I'm also doing mantra. So I'm I'm working from all three angles in a more integrative approach to this that can be, that can be really effective and powerful too. And what I found is is that having addressing all three angles in this way gives a much higher probability of actually creating stability. So if we're just focusing on one aspect, like the physical it may not create stability, because our instability might be more on the mental level, or it might be more on the level of the emotions. So if we can make sure we're addressing heart, body and mind, it's it's greatly effective for promoting stability in the lucid dream. And one final method that I'll share with you is one that I've been working with recently, which is working with the dream Lotus. So the Dream Yoga Red Lotus, that is a sacred symbol in the Dream Yoga practice associated with lucid dreaming and Dream Yoga, I've been tracing this within the lucid dream and this integrates several of the techniques. So first, I have a deep heart connection to this symbol, because it's such a deep part of my practice. So just being with this symbol opens my heart, and then I have the movement of my fingers or my finger, and also the movement in my eyes as I'm tracing the lotus in the dream. So there's that physical element to it. And also this in itself, is a concentration practice, so it works on the mental level as well. And I found this to be a really, a really powerful practice. I've worked with this a lot in the waking state as a as an induction technique. But what I'm finding is that actually bringing into the dream, it actually works as a stabilization technique as well. So figure out which sequence is best for you, or if you prefer an integrative approach, and choose, you know which aspects of each layer speak to you, and also note that you you might need to change these over time. I've had stabilization techniques that work really well for me, and then over time they become less effective. So you want to remain flexible in your mind in terms of what techniques you're using and what techniques are needed in order to create stabilization in the dream. And so I now want to take a moment to invite you all to write, if you have stabilization techniques that you use or that you're aware of, to actually write those in the chat, so that we can harvest some of the group wisdom here on this as well. Good. And as those are coming in, Chelsea will share some of her tips for stabilization, as well as Claire's method for stabilization.

Thank you, Katie. And during the Q and A, we'll read through them. I'll read out loud what you guys are all writing in the chat so that we can hear the stabilization techniques that you all use. So just some additional stabilization techniques ideas. So one of them that I do frequently is swing through water without needing to come up for air or needing to breathe. That can be a stabilization technique for me looking at my hands can also work as one. It's also a dream sign, and this is mentioned in a novel by Carlos Castaneda. And so what you do is you just look at your hands, see how they look different than they would in the waking state. And then this one's a bit more subtle, but you can recognize the feeling of the dream. So the feeling of the dream state is actually different than the feeling of the waking state. And we'll explore this a little bit in the practice that we're going to be doing together. The dream state can feel actually more intense and more real than the waking state. So if you can tap into that feelingization difference, it can work as a stabilization technique as well. Now I'm going in gonna go into sharing. Johnson's stabilization technique called clear that she created, and I'm going to put the link to her book, The Complete Book of lucid dreaming, in the chat once I'm done with this part of my presentation. So the first thing that we want to do with clear is to calm down. That's the sea. A really ubiquitous experience that people have is to get way too excited. This has happened to me too when we first discover our lucid dream. It can be quite an amazing experience to have, and this can actually make us wake up right away. So it's really important to work with calming, like Katie was speaking to calming our strong emotions through deep breathing. You can look up at the sky and recognize how the spaciousness in this of the sky is also within you at all times, you can do this by counting. The next part of clear is the L, which is look around so once you've calmed down, or while calming down, you can look around at the dream scene and notice the details. Be curious about what you see, and try to keep your eyes moving, as Katie mentioned, and try not to stare in the same place for too long, because that could actually make you wake up as well. Because, as Katie said, our eyes are actually moving in our physical body. So if we're trying to focus too hard, too too strong and our eyes are straight, then they're no longer working in REM right? So you kind of keep doing this until things are crystal clear around you. The next is E, which is engage. So we can do this by touching a wall or stroking a dream leaf or feeling the top of a table or stomping our feet or rubbing our hands together, we can engage our senses. Maybe there's music that we can hear in the dream, or we can smell a dream flower. We can eat some food that maybe we can't eat in the waking state, and really enjoy it. We can jump into the air. We can see if we float. These are ways to engage the dream. Then we'll want to announce, announce that this is a dream through a clear affirmation, such as, this is a dream. I am lucid. And as Katie mentioned, you can also take it as an opportunity to redirect the order by saying something like clarity. Now feels like when I say that and I do that in a lucid dream, it's almost like casting a spell. Everything becomes more clear, and then the R is recall. So recall your dream intention. This is actually a perfect segue into the practice that we're going to be doing, which is called stabilizing the waking dream. And before we go into the practice, I invite you to write down your current dream intention. And if you're new and you don't have or you don't have one currently, then you can just take a moment and write one down. I'm going to put some examples in the chat, because I feel like that can be helpful if I'm trying to create one and it doesn't need to be too intricate. It can be quite simple, and you can make it as intricate as you want. It's totally up to you, as long as you can remember it when you're in the lucid dream and you feel joy and connected to it. So here are some examples. The first one is, I will become lucid in my dreams and joyfully fly over the ocean. I will become lucid in my dreams and solve a creative obstacle. I will become lucid in my dreams and meet and align the guide. So I'll give you a couple minutes to just think about that and write it down, because we're going to be returning to that in in the practice I'm

A couple More moments I'm

hey, let's dive into the practice. So make sure that you have the intention close by, maybe sitting right in front of you, or that you feel like you can hold it within your system. You'll have your eyes open for this practice, so you won't have to be concerned about needing it memorized. If you have it right in front of you, you can look at it. And what we'll want to do first is find a comfortable position so you can either be seated or you can be standing for this particular practice. We're going to be keeping our eyes open. So it's an it's essential that you are positioning yourself somewhere where you have an expansive view. So this could be in front of a window. This could be turning your chair around so that you're not looking at your screen sitting somewhere else in your room, where you can still hear me,

and you can always just put your laptop screen down a little bit just so you're not looking at your screen, can be helpful.

And to back up a little bit that was the plot. So once you find your comfortable position with an expansive view, you're going to start to relax. Make sure whatever posture you've chosen, that you're sitting in such a way or standing in such a way, that you're not too tight and not too loose in whatever posture you have chosen,

we're cultivating a presence of relaxed attention in this moment, We're now bring your attention to your breath and

and remember to keep your eyes open as we're hoping to calm our nervous system while We remain aware of our visual field and

and if it's helpful for you to calm down further, I recognize that having our eyes open in this way isn't necessarily how many of us have been guided in relaxation techniques. It can really help to put a hand over your heart, just as a way of letting your nervous system your body know that you're here and it's safe you.

Now, as you're breathing, you're just noticing

there is nothing to change nothing to do in this moment.

As we continue to settle in,

notice what it feels like to be present in this waking reality and

open your aperture of your visual field by taking in Your surroundings

and recognize that you are dreaming.

Know notice how you feel from this recognition that you are dreaming and remain calm,

you can take some more deep breaths and begin to move your eyes around A little bit, slowly, deepening the relaxation of calm and

slowly moving your eyes around the space while breathing in, stabilizing the realization that you are aware in a dream In this moment,

you are lucid and

I continue to Look around at the details of the dream,

looking around and scanning the environment. Be curious. What do you see? I

take in all of the details

by doing This, your vision is becoming clearer and clearer and

now begin engaging with The Dream.

Is a dream character present within the space.

Are there elements of the scenery you are drawn to engage with? Do.

Play with the dreamscape and

play with Your Mind.

Now we will announce to ourselves with a strong belief and conviction, while continuing to move our eyes around, that this is a dream three times, and I invite you to say this out loud. This is a dream. This is a dream.

This is a dream.

Really feel it, but this is a dream, and

now recall your dream intention and say to yourself so that You can fulfill your intention in this lucid state, you

as we close this practice, I invite you, if you do not have your hand over your heart, still to place your hand over your heart. For this part, you can close your eyes to feel a deeper sense of gratitude, if you like, really thanking yourself for deepening your exploration of lucid dreaming. Really feel that gratitude.

Notice any insights you received from this experience, or if anything was revealed to you, you

begin to gently move in a way that wakes up your body can do this any way that feels Good to you as we Return to the group and

and I turned off my video because I think I'm having some internet issues, unfortunately. So I think it will be better without my video on, but you can still see my face. I have a picture up there. I would invite you to share any of your experiences that you had in your in the chat, or you can share them. And Katie, since my internet's a little funky, do you mind doing the Q? A at all? Thank you. Yeah.

Yeah, yes. So now transition into the Q and A sharing portion of our experience here today. So you're welcome to raise your hand if you'd like to share something, or if you'd like to ask a question, or if you'd like to ask if maybe you did have your first lucid dream. I know there were three people who said they were unsure if they might have had their first lucid dream or not, and so we welcome you to ask that here, and I'm going to just go through the chat and read some of what has come through from earlier as well. Okay, great. So Peter asked a question, are these physical movements practiced in the dream or in normal reality? So actually, in the dream, so when we're stabilizing the lucid dream, we want to do those within the dream state. Okay? And then we had some of the shares of how people stabilize their dreams. So Stephanie said spinning, yeah, spinning can be a great stabilization method. Spinning can also change the dream so it can change the scene from one thing to another, but a lot of people use it as a way of really bringing more imagery into the mind, which can have a stabilizing effect on the dream Gilda mimicking a camera lens. That's really cool. I'd love to hear more about how you do that at some point. Chris, deep, breathing, asking for stabilization or more clarity. Nice. Marion, swinging my arms and calling out boost lucidity. Also having a dream goal helps me a lot. Lately, I've been eating sweets, which I don't do in the waking life. Nice. I eat pizza a lot in my dreams, and I normally I can't eat gluten or dairy. I'm allergic to them, so it's great to eat pizza in my dreams. Lonnie, simple, this is a dream and fostering a felt sense of being okay with whatever unfolds. Beautiful. I love that. Lonnie, that's that's bringing that dream attitude into it, and this kind of spacious, open attitude, and that can be really beneficial for stabilizing lucidity. Beth said, these will be so helpful. I just noticed I'm dreaming, and first remind myself to stay calm. I don't have them very often, and sometimes I get so excited I wake up, darn. Now I'm able to stabilize, but it usually fades back to regular dreaming. Yeah, yeah. So it might be, yeah, helpful to engage the emotional piece first. Since you tend to get excited, a lot of us do when we become lucid, it's exciting. And yeah, now I'm able to stabilize, but usually it fades back to regular dreaming. So you might try the announcing, the consistent announcing, this is a dream I'm dreaming that can help keep that continuity of lucidity. Yeah, great. Monica, I look at my arms move quickly or spin. Look at everything around me with interest. Move on quickly from one thing to the next, awesome. And nazila said, I'm not sure if I can differentiate between lucid dreaming and or a vision. Yeah. So if you want to, if you want to talk about that nazila, we can, we can definitely explore that more deeply. Just raise your hand. Okay. And Cheyenne Dion, practices for stabilization have benefited me so fully, resting deeply within all the energy and to feel all as it is, without avoiding or replacing anything, and to know that one is safe as love itself and all is love resting deeply in that simplicity, no effort required. So beautiful, Cheyenne, yes, very, a very subtle and very powerful approach to this. And this is, this is in the same theme of what Chelsea was speaking to, of that spatial awareness and just having a felt sense of being in the dream and not needing to do anything or make anything happen in order to stabilize it. That's beautiful. Thank you for sharing. Okay, good. All right, I'll come back to the chat in a bit, and for now, I'm going to go to a live. Question So Mike, question or share, let me just I think you're already unmuted. Great.

Okay, you know, I've been following my dreams for decades. I'm an old guy, if my brain is a hard drive, I've got terabytes of stuff here that gets processed, and I've been doing this on my own. I've been walking a lonely path, and when I hear you guys talking, I just feel joy that this is familiar landscape, and I I'm here to learn, because I've kind of figured this out on my own. And the staying stable, I'm into Greek mythology, kind of like Andrew. And you know, my dreams are gifts from the gods their gift from me to me to heal and help me grow and become one and become present. So for me, being present and lucid dreaming are the same thing. I could look out my window, see a cardinal and just feel joy, you know, the bird. Just feel joy in my dreams, I found a bird in the bush, a yellow bird that had a tail like a fish. Pure Joy, just joy. So I'm happy. Okay, thank you.

Thank you, Mike. I feel that you're really speaking to both an induction and a stabilization technique, as well as the fruition of the practice. So this experience of joy in being able to share with your community, and the experience of joy in the experience of lucidity itself, whether it's in the waking or the dreaming state, and then just the experience of joy as the result of doing all this, it's a really powerful emotional framework and foundation from which to create more lucidity. So thank you so much for being here. I'm glad that we found each other in this and that we get to share it as a community. Thank you. Okay, Gilda,

hello, everyone in the exercise that Chelsea led, my experience was that everything is a phenomena which I am observing, rather than an invitation or trigger to act, so that that is kind of a double tundra, but It allows for space to arise and and not want not get caught. And I was contemplating the fact that emptiness is not a luxury that people say, Oh, I'm going emptiness, the nature and understanding of it, is a requirement to live, of life to understand that one has just, you know, a big it's a big life force that backs one's being. So you asked me about mimicking a lens. Well, it's like telescoping when I'm in dreams and I do more individuation work than than lucid dreaming. So I'm trying to, I am working with all facets of dreams, not just lucidity. So individuation as I work with it, and it's, it's undeniably a phenomena that occurs will take you to the depth of your being and everything in the shadow or you can't remember having seen whatever is there that also incorporates your personality in things that you like or don't like or or or things that get in the way, or don't, whatever it might be, it shows it clearly all the way down to your lineage and that sort of thing. So you clear it when, when it's big enough, then a shift occurs in in and it's clear when you're awake. The realization is so truth, your truth serum, that it becomes a shift, rather than for me, rather than meandering around dreams. So I'm going to fly. I'm going to this that doesn't work for me, because I'm an expert that so. That didn't, that didn't get me anywhere. So telescoping like a camera lens, when I'm in the dream, I can see, I can zoom all the way to, oh, what's behind there was it? So I do look around and or whatever it is, the being, usually, if I'm there, whatever, I can telescope close up and far and all around, and it gives very clear and I and I will remember it and but I do wake up in order to write it so I don't stay sometimes I play around with staying in the dream. But I do suddenly wake up and I write it down, and lo and behold, it's another clean up job, or it's just dialoguing with conscience, with consciousness in all its facets, including when we are asleep. So that's what I work with. So telescoping that camera mimicking attack camera lens. It's very useful in my practice. It's very useful for noticing, but in the exercise that you just gave, it allowed me to understand, really understand, that this whole phenomena, I don't need to act nor react. I'm just watching, but, but so that that's interesting to me, if you can riff off of that, because in lucid dreaming, often we are one of the features is to actually act or embody or or notice or so there's an an agency that that is behind the intention from the big before we so before I go to sleep, because I'm going to meet my guides, and I have guides, so I just go to see what arises and and all of it always connects with your practice, with how you are spiritually developing how you are physically developed, developing what you refer to, Mind Body, Mind Body and what else Heart so it always touches upon that, that trilogy. So that did I answer the mimicking the lens. Okay, so that's what I have to share.

Yeah, thanks for sharing. Gilda, can you hear me? Okay, yeah. So yeah, thank you for sharing your experience with the practice and that you were seeing everything is phenomena, and what I'm hearing from you is like and then you brought in the element of emptiness. So by doing this practice in the waking state, stabilizing the waking dream, we can then become more lucid to our experience of seeing it all as phenomena, and recognizing that we have space to respond or react, right? And there's a lucidness within that, and we can actually stay in the waking state in that lucidness, in that kind of place of Paula lucidity, like Katie was talking about earlier, where you kind of just like let things play out around you, the phenomena move and act around you, kind of like an open awareness meditation. And you can do that right? You can do that in the waking state. You can also do that in the dream. You in the dream, and that can be like, for me, a very like, fun thing to do, because then I have to really calm down in that moment, and I haven't been able to sit and just watch the phenomena like I can in that practice, I have been able to sit and meditate, but I usually close my eyes to do that. And so it's it's continuing to work on these like more subtle levels where we recognize the intention doesn't necessarily have to be to go and do something necessarily. It just depends where we are in our practice, because the doing could just turn into the beingness of being in the dream and spontaneously responding to whatever is in the dream, just as if we could spontaneously respond lucidly in the waking state, and then that can become more of a. Line between all states of reality.

Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you. I'll just share about stability. Seems, for me an important issue for stability, because in that state, like I said, I'm a master visualizer fantasies. So there's a difference between fantasy and imagination. When one is in this state, recognizing that is rather important. So we find that it's instability, trying that's over time, working with it, rather than like the telescoping. It sort of like a leash. I'll go there, but always return to a center. So the the witnessing remains, remains as a Energy Center, rather than being allowed any kind of disruption or chaotic thing to throw it off as keel in any other mind, body or heart. So the dreams then begin to show that when one is experiencing them, that that there is this centrality that keeps it, the witnesses safe. That's sort of like a safety, kind of stability within even if there's emptiness or whatever it is, but there's always this very stabilizing presence, like presence witnessing or whatever it might be. So that that, for me, became the way to stabilize. So that's why I don't I stopped playing, you know, because I was always playing. My entire life, I've been playing in dreams and intending and doing this. I just did naturally, and it did not stabilize my inner and outer reality. It actually destabilized it. So that's just my experience, but yeah, that centerness of mantras work very well with that, the mantras work amazing, because the body will is humming, is vibrating, so it causes the nervous system, whatever else to to settle down with the sound. So when, when one practices these mantras, in my experience, because they are already programmed. The sound is programmed. Then the body immediately, you know, comes into a recognition of stability. So these are some of my experiences with stability. I hope it's helpful for some.

Yeah, thank you, Gilda for sharing those experiences, and we can experience the stabilization of mantra in the waking state right now, right and just by saying something like, this is a dream, and looking around like we did in the practice, there can all of a sudden be a sense of of stabilization within that even just, you know, rubbing our hands. So all of these things that we do practice in the waking state, right? The practice that Katie was sharing of maybe doing the mantra and then also rubbing our hands and then also doing deep breathing, all at the same time, in this integrated approach, we can do it in the waking state and then it can it's, I use this word frequently, but it's so true, it's a bi directional approach. So like, whatever we're doing in the waking state, it's gonna go into the dream state, and vice versa. So I know that Katie's had an experience recently with centering and stabilization. I don't know if there's anything that you want to share about that within the waking state, Katie,

well, I think it's just there's many ways to stabilize, and some of them are more subtle and some of them are more gross. And depending on where we are in our journey, we might choose different approaches and different layers to those approaches. But I think what you're speaking to Gilda is how ultimately, the only true stability is in emptiness. And so all of these other ways of creating stability are just provisional, and eventually we have to let go of all those other ways and recognize that resting in our true nature, formless awareness is the only. Able ground that we really have. So we're getting pretty deep in our topics today, which I love. It's beautiful, and, and, yeah, I think I'll just at this point move on to the next question that's in the chat, which is from Peter. So Peter says, I have noticed that Galantamine seems to make my dreams more vivid and lengthy. What do you think about its use? Yeah, so Galantamine does have that effect on a number of people, because Galantamine actually promotes REM sleep because it's involved in acetylcholine production. So when we take Galantamine, it can increase acetylcholine, and for some people, that can be a stimulator of greater lucidity. So I think use your own intuition as to whether or not you want to use supplements or herbs to support your lucid dreaming or Dream Yoga practice. I really have found it's just a personal experience for each person. You know. I know Andrea uses glantamine at times. And a lot of other lucid dreamers that I'm friends with use Galantamine or have tried it. I have never tried glantamine, just because I've had more of the intention to try to do it without external supports in that way, but that's just my personal choice. It's not better or worse than any other choice. If that plant or that compound speaks to you, then explore it, try it. So, so yeah, I think just the one thing I would say is not to create a codependency with it in the practice. So sometimes these plant medicines can be Windows or doorways into having an experience that may not otherwise be accessible for us, and then it could open that door for us to continue to have that experience. And in that sense, I think the use of supplements in plant medicines is really beautiful and supportive, but if you're reliant on it, then it's not necessarily going to be much help to you if, for example, you're using lucid dreaming or Dream Yoga as preparation for death, because you won't be able to take the Galantamine with you into the Bardo after death. So, yeah, use these tools, these supplements, as supports, but not as CO dependent agents. Is my recommendation? Great. Yes. Okay. Monica says cool telescoping idea. I agree. Super cool, all right? And I see Mike has his hand up.

I'd like to

share an experience, but I get up, get cleaned up, washed, and I make my breakfast. I'll be sitting there waiting for my forage to cook. I'll pop right back into dream space, you know, kind of have an Aha. And the same thing after my afternoon. Now all that processing kind of floats up to the surface and I go, Aha. So it's, you know, in my empty space, you know, just not thinking about anything, not even my breakfast, and I go, Oh. So it's a question, is that it like lucid dreaming, like just being able to pop

in and out of the dreams?

Are you? Are you falling asleep when you're having those experiences? Or are you still awake? I'm in

liminal space, and I don't realize it until I find myself daydreaming, okay, yeah, and all of a sudden I remember sort of the meaning or the feelings associated with the dreams, and that's my message from the other side. I go between linear thinking and non linear. So having this sort of a membrane, you know, between the two things is is being able to traverse this permeable veil, as it's been called, lift the veil and go, Wow. Okay, let's shut that day for a while. But I'm getting so comfortable and joy from healing and becoming whole without asking. It's just there. Call it spirit, consciousness, whatever. This is my trip, and I'm kind of getting way up there. And nice to talk to you guys. Thanks.

Yeah. Thank you for speaking to this. It's there. There is no actual membrane, but. Between these states, right? We create those membranes in order to talk about them and have language and define them in certain ways, that membrane doesn't actually exist. So I think, in your practice, and as you've grown and evolved in your dream work and your meditation practice over your lifetime, those lines become less clear and more blurred, and you're experiencing wakefulness in more states. So it's beautiful. And I think that's, that's a beautiful example of, you know, I think what we're all headed towards is more of this lack of lines, lack of delineation between these states, and more in a more in non duality, or more in a less queer, explicit state between one to the next.

Well, that makes me happy because I'm 80, and I know what part of life I'm in, this is going to be such a blast, so I'll see you guys on the other side. Okay,

we'll see you there. Mike, okay. Elaine,

yeah. So I just had a question about when the one of the body stabilizing practices you mentioned was like touching a wall. And like, one of the most amazing experiences I've had in a dream is being walked through a wall. Because I was like, Oh, my God, it's happening. And so when you go to touch a wall to stabilize your physicality then, and what if your hand goes through the wall? Or, I mean, I don't know, like, how is, I'm just trying to understand what this stabilization practice is supposed to do for you. Like, does it just if you go through a wallet let you know that you're, like, dreaming? Or,

yeah, yeah, it's a really good question. And, and so yeah, in the beginning of my presentation, I spoke to often you will sometimes you might end up in a lucid dream, and you don't need to stabilize. Stabilization is only if the dream feels shaky, like, Okay, I might not be able to keep my lucidity, then you might need to do some things to make the dream feel more stable. But if you already have some degree of stability, and you're putting your hand through a wall and it's going through the wall, great, now you're practicing Dream Yoga. And Dream Yoga is actually about recognizing the dream as a dream, so there's kind of a destabilization that's happening in it, but when we're first going into lucid dreaming, or just if we're having an unstable experience in a lucid dream, the stabilization can be supportive provisionally, in order to make the dream stay longer, so that we can explore some of these deeper techniques. So if you don't need to stabilize, don't stabilize. Just start doing dream yoga practices. Access your intention, whatever that is. And it's, yeah, it's just, if you're in the dream and you're going, Oh my I can feel that my lucidity is tenuous, or feels like I might not be able to hold on to this for very long, like I'm slipping away somehow, then the stabilization techniques are supportive.

Yeah, I like, I can tell like, I was practicing this last week I was like, continuing in that state when you're half awake and you're like, you're still dreaming and the stories going on. And then I really like looking through my note like I would just pick up the phone and dictate. Once in a while, I would just go, Okay, this is happening, and then put it back down. And then later I looked, I mean, these notes went on and on. This thing was long and and I was like, Well, how much of that was dreaming? Was any of it lucid? I don't know. Like what I mean, what makes it lucid? What makes it lucid? Like it, um, you know, and not just a dream that you're remember like that. You're, well, I guess if you're remembering it as you're doing it, that is lucid, right? Even if it's passive, like, I mean, if you're, if you know what's going on, and you're like, you can remember it and write it down and everything, is that lucid, or is that just a dream you remember.

So that's a dream you remember which is also something to celebrate, right? Because we're working on our dream recall. So if you're remembering a longer dream that is awesome, you're remembering more details. You're creating more of a relationship with your dream world. Lucid dreaming is being aware. That you're in the dream while you are in the dream, yeah. Mm, hmm. So does that the way that I said that? Does that land for you?

I think so. I mean, and I know I've been there, and by doing this dictation thing the other morning I saw I could see in my notes, oh, this is where I went from actually dreaming and remembering the dream to having thoughts, like conceptual thoughts, which are different. You know, it's like, but I Yeah, and then I wouldn't know the difference between my like a visual is like a vision that comes to me and a dream. I mean, like, I don't know. Are there clear lines

when you say a vision that comes to you? How do you define vision?

Um, like images that have a feeling or a meaning that, like that kind of fills me up.

Yeah, so an image that kind of has more of like a depth to it in some way, is that? What if it okay? And then you're wanting to delineate that from like a dream, possibly, I think, is that?

Yeah, I guess

earlier, Gilda had said something about the difference between. I think it was between. I forget it was like between something that you

fantasy and imagination. Thank you. Yeah,

yeah, Gilda, do you want to share what those two differences are for you?

Certainly, hopefully I can access my my fantasy is when you're wishing that, oh, he said, Oh, I'm going to I'm the will is involved. You are, or maybe a part of the ego and everything else. You are deliberately creating a scenario. And so it can unfold also out of your initial intention, but you are deliberately giving wings to your wishes and desires and everything else. So it becomes closer to ego. Imagination is when you are opened and you receive, you receive. So you're a recipient. And so there's an interaction, but you did not you are not in the lead. You were not in the lead creating it. So that's a separation the other one you were in the lead, kind of having an agency in its creation, imagination, your whole inner being, what I call inner intelligence, when it gets constellated, it will advise our mind screen to and show us something to watch. So that's a difference. I'm an expert in the fantasy part. I could oh here, and the whole thing would just play out. But the other requires being centered and not not having a lead into the movement of what is being played out. But you still, you still are part of it, and perhaps you all of it is being created by your inner intelligence. But that, that I don't know if I could explain it properly, but you're not in the lead. In the imagination, you are part of it, and in the fantasy, you are mostly you in the lead came from deliberate induction, so deliberate, I believe the ego is more present in fantasy, and the other one is just blended in.

So if an ally just comes to you in a dream, like, you get this image of this ally or guide, like, that's and they're, they're just there, like, oh, big surprise. Then that's not, that's probably imagination, active imagination, rather than fancy So, but in a lucid dream, if you like, I tend to be more passive in them. But I've also been cautioned about letting the ego you know, kind of take over like be to like you. Uh, like, you know, let the thing happen, rather than trying to make it, you know, like, don't get too involved in the in the active part. I like, and I just so I'm not sure where. I guess that's a balance you have to keep just like, let it flow. I don't know.

Yeah, yeah. And I would, I would make a distinction between the egoic self and the creative self. So, yeah, which the creative self is not egoic. It's not coming from a place of driving a personality need like safety or security or self importance, right? It's coming from a place that's more flowing and creative and open and co creative with the universe and other energies. And I think that's really what Gilda was speaking to with imagination, is it's not that there's no part of you in it, but there's no egoic part of you in it. You might have your creative light or your creative life or your creative love energy in it, but not your ego, not your personality. Great. Yeah, yeah. Thank you. Okay, so we're gonna go to the next two, nazila and Jude, and then we'll probably complete for the day after those two. And thank you all for for being here. This is such a rich, beautiful conversation. Okay, nazila, Hello,

and thank you so much. Sorry. I have my video off. My mother fell yesterday, and she's having a hip surgery, so I was up all night, and I'm super tired, so I'm in bed, I wanted to ask you and also share an experience. I have experienced physical symptoms as interruptions and distractions, not that I practice lucid dreaming regularly, but I noticed that, meaning that I feel abdominal pains that is pulling me from being in that state yesterday. That's one, and this other one that I wanted to ask you. I'm not sure if it was a vision or I was lucid dreaming yesterday. What I experienced and noticed was a sudden exhaustion that took me to bed. I generally notice, for example, before a session with a client. It's as if I'm like, picking up their under stuff, like I get headache or, anyway, without going without going into that or going off tangent, I was I I was awake, but I was exhausted, and I was laying down, and very soon I saw a door open, like I had my eyes closed, and there was a lot of light, and the door was slowly opening, and I'm like, oh my god, I couldn't I, I didn't stay with that. And I said, Wait, what is that? Did I just see an image of like, it was interesting, like the door was not like a regular door. I am not sure if I can describe this image that I saw, it was kind of like, as if it was not in the sky, but I'm not sure it wasn't on the ground. It was, I can't quite describe it. And then I wanted to go back to it. I think I got a physical symptom or something. And then right after that, guess what? I got the text message that mom fell, my brother fell. That's what I'm noticed. This is the exhaustion or symptoms that I feel. And right after that, I was like, I had to jump and get up and go to the hospital to the ER and so that's, I don't know if you have any input around that. Thank you so much.

Yeah, thank you for sharing. So the first thing I am noticing what you shared was that you said, sometimes the sensations or feelings that you have in your body can be a distraction. And what I want to say to that is, when you notice a sensation or feeling being a distraction, notice how you're relating to that sensation or feeling. Thing, are you allowing yourself to get immersed into it and lost in it, or are you trying to push it away from you? So are you grasping or are you averting the sensation? And if so, adjust your relationship to it, either where you're creating more spaciousness around it, for example, or you could lean into it a bit more if you're pushing away from it. And in this way, you can create more lucidity, more awareness with the sensation. And what I'm also noticing and what you're sharing is that sometimes you're getting these experiences that actually aren't yours. They're coming from family, or they're coming from friends, or they're coming from someone else, and and then there's this attachment or This fixation that happens on that. And so this can happen a lot with people who are naturally more open or naturally more sensitive, and so one way you can work with that is to recognize that it's not yours, to get a sense of feeling, the distinction between what are the sensations that you're feeling that are your own, versus what are someone else's, and either way, you can have This relationship to them, where you're creating space around them and not holding them with such seriousness or such weight around them and and in some cases, it might also be appropriate to create to create some boundaries around those experiences with other people as well. Now what you spoke to about the portal, as I'm thinking of it, is like this doorway, this portal. It almost feels like that was in a liminal space, or almost a mini dream or something. And I would recommend just being curious about, what is that portal? What is that doorway that's neither on the ground nor in the sky? Why did it show up? And even imagining yourself walking through that, what would that lead to? What is that showing you? So this is what arises for me. I

I appreciate that I actually was curious. And then later I thought, well, if I was able to go through that open door, I'm kind of curious, what I would have witnessed on the other side. But this is what I'm saying. I think the pain, the physical pain, is the distraction, interruption takes me from being in there anyway, yeah, thank you so much.

Yeah, and the doorway might be showing you a way through that maybe.

Do you think that was a vision? That's my question is, was that a vision? Or was that lucid dreaming? Or was it a psychic hit?

Well, you know, again, it, it's, it's one of those things of, where do we draw the line? It sounds to me like you're possibly in a liminal state, somewhere between waking and sleeping, and it could have been a liminal dream, or it could have just been a vision, more close to the waking state. But it doesn't really matter where it was. I think just listening to the message of it and responding to it is what's important here.

I appreciate it. Thank you so much. Yeah, absolutely, that's a good point. It doesn't matter what it was, just noticing the liminal state, I think that's my takeaway. Thank you, absolutely, yeah, not Yeah. Thank you. Because I'm kind of, I have an inquisitive mind, and I'm trying to make sense of, Oh, what was that? You know? Was that my body trying to tell me that, oh, my mother just fell down, because I feel that like something happens, you know? Thank you. I don't want to take up time. I appreciate thank you so much.

You're welcome. Nazila, okay, and Jude, I see you don't have your hand raised anymore, but would love to hear from you.

I was just curious about the Red Lotus symbol. If you wanted to mention anything further about that, you said we could trace it with our fingers.

Yeah. So I'm actually, I'm going to direct you to a class that we did on the Red Lotus, I think. Let me see,

I just recently put it in the chat again because somebody else had asked. So it should be in there, June.

Oh, okay, yeah. According

year, we work with the Red Lotus. As it's a practice for inducing lucid dreaming, and it's a dream yoga practice as well. And so you can watch that. That gives you a detailed step by step orientation to the lotus. Thank you, beautiful practice. I highly recommend it. It's one of my favorites.

Thank you.

Okay, great. So I think just in the interest of time, we will complete for today, and I just want to say thank you all so much for being here, and it's been such a joy. And let us know how the stabilization techniques go. If you have any feedback for us, you can send it to our website. I'll put the link in the chat for that in just a moment. And with that being said, I'm going to offer a blessing to us all for our lucid dreams. May we have deep, restful sleep each night, may we be blessed with recall of our dreams? May our dreams be clear and lucid, may our experience of sleep and dreams benefit others? You?

We dedicate the merit of this practice, this gathering, this time together, to all beings. May all beings recognize the clear light of lucidity in all states of being,

spread it out to the world. Send a beautiful day night, wherever you are,

thank You. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Everyone you