welcome to the Lucky Titan podcast where you will learn how to fill your favorite platform with tons of your dream customers from some of the world's top entrepreneurs. I'm your host, Josh tap. Now let's get started. What is up everybody Josh tapir again. And welcome back to the lucky Titan today. We're here with Ryan Estes. Now guys, this guy, I've spoken with him once or twice at this point, I love the company that these guys have built. It's called kit caster. And if you're a podcaster, you know all about this company, because I really do think these guys are going to really take the market when it comes to booking people on other people's podcasts prefer to some of the best guests that you guys have seen have come from Kate caster. So I'm stoked to see where they're going with their company, when I talked to Ryan, about coming here on the show is like, hey, this will be a great opportunity for us to dive into the story aspect and the why behind podcasting. Because you know, a lot of you who listened to this have thought for it's probably crossed your mind, I should probably have a show at some point. Or maybe I should go on shows at some point. But you haven't taken the LEAP simply because it probably feels like there's too many barriers in between you and that. And what we're here to do today is to help remove those barriers and convince you to choose either to start a podcast to go on podcasts, or both. Ideally, both. But you know, we both make money when you guys do both. So. But Ryan, first off, say it's up to everybody, and we'll hop in man.
Hey, everybody, Josh, I really appreciate being on your show. I'm a fan of your show. I love what you do, particularly for podcasting. And I'm so excited to have a Podcast, the podcast conversation here.
That's why we should name it the Podcast, the podcast. Because ultimately, this feels like kind of an inception concept. Or we're talking about podcasting and podcasting. And many people know this. So listen to this show. I've actually really heavily considered changing the entire theme of the show or starting a new show entirely around podcasting, monetizing it, scaling it growing it, because ultimately, that's what we do for a living. But I just love talking to people in other industries, too. You get bored just talking to podcasters all day, right? I haven't yet. Okay. Oh, yeah. I haven't either. I've just I do want to ask you this, though, Ryan, because I asked this to most of my guests. But what was that epiphany moment when you realized podcasting was going to be your niche was that sector that you think you thought you'd fall in love with?
Yeah, you know what I was a young entrepreneur. This might have been 15 years ago. And I started what would be Denver's first Social Media Marketing Agency. This was before Facebook business manager. This is before Instagram existed, I was kind of coming off the heels of Myspace, I had a band that toured and recorded here in Denver, and as a product to that use MySpace pretty heavily to promote the music. And then other bands are like, Hey, can you do this? Can you build websites, and I start to see the opportunity here. So I started that, in the beginning, it was kind of a side thing, because it wasn't necessarily bringing home the bacon and I had a couple small children. So the job I had was probably 90 minutes away one way, and it was brutal. The commute was just killing me. So you know, I ran through my playlist on my iPod at the time, pretty quick. And you can only listen to so much Led Zeppelin and Tupac before you're like, Alright, I need something else. And it's not going to be the radio. So podcasting at this point was still, you had to download it into your iPod, which took maybe an hour, and then you played it back. And so that kind of started the journey. You know, I was listening to Rogan early on, and comedians early on, and then kind of got into the iTunes Apple podcast ecosystem and realized anything I was into, there was a podcast for that. There was one particular podcast called field of weeds. That was a series of essays from this Zen ex Pat monk that was living in LA and it was just so gorgeous. So I really fell in love with the medium. about that same time, my music career was coming to an end, largely because of these children's staring at me with hungry eyes, realizing that's where my time was gonna go. And I was really kind of bummed out about not playing music anymore. So I was like, I'm gonna start a podcast, you know, and had to convince my wife what that was. And then I convinced the band what that was, and I was like, Look, guys, it's just like, the band just sitting around talking trash, only. We're not doing music. It's just that and so they were in. So I started a podcast called eighth grade ball early on, and had a little success with it. And that was it. I've been hooked since then.
It's funny to me to see that transition story for a lot of people because you're one of the OGS in the space. You know, I got into podcasting. Want to say maybe 10 years ago, and at that point, it was already pretty popularized, you know, it had, we were still in the early phases, you know, but But I mean, you could pull it up on your phone and download it or whatnot. You can just stream it. I think 3g was around at that point. But
the 3g moment was glorious when it was like, I can just stream it. Oh my gosh, that was that was amazing.
And I it makes me laugh to think how many of us wouldn't even listen to podcasts now? The days if we had to download it, I mean, I would if people asked me to watch a video half the time like, yeah, for that, give me a podcast, I can do it while I'm driving or working out or something. It's fun to see that transition story, because what happens for most people with podcasting is pretty much everybody walks into it, right? They're like, Yeah, I've listened to a few. And they're like, you know, why don't I try it? And then you realize it's really not that hard to start a show. And when you did, it was probably much more difficult, because you probably had to manually host it yourself. And unless your recording studio and the whole thing, and that's, I mean, the production experience, it's crazy. And nowadays, you can pull up anchor.fm And have a podcast in two minutes, you know? Yeah, it's cool to see that you guys have done that. So you know, you've pivoted, and then with kick caster, and everything, you guys have basically built an environment where people can come in and actually start to amplify their story without having to worry about the production value, because they can go on other people shows. Now, I do want to ask you this, too, because there's actually a genuine question I have, like, what's the actual ROI of going and speaking on podcasts, because, you know, like, if I go speak at an event, I know, I'm going to close a few sales, right? And for us, you know, that's 20 $30,000 a month in revenue. And we do that. So there's a lot of ROI there. But then when I go on podcast, it's more of kind of a branding activity, it's always seemed where like, I do get a lot of exposure, but I don't typically get direct sales from going on the show. So I'm just kind of curious what what you guys have seen the ROI to be,
you know, I think it's pretty consistent with our experience. It's very good at with brand building, if we're talking about return, especially, you know, we work with a lot of marketing directors, and they're very accustomed to neat and tidy spreadsheets. And podcasting is a little squishy. So you know, we work typically with funded startup founders, entrepreneurs with exits, C suite executives, and they all have kind of different outcomes that they're looking for. Everybody wants prospects, for sure. But some folks come on, and their main priority is recruiting, or their main priority is adding runway. So we have kind of case studies and success stories for pretty much every single outcome you can imagine. But generally, as a rule, what we'll see is folks that have a longer sales cycle, and a higher LTV do really well, with podcasting, you know, you can get also because podcasts are kind of always out there, you know, you might have a podcast you recorded 10 months ago, and it pops back up on someone's radar, they reach out, you close the deal. And so those tend to do really well, folks that are kind of trying to move widgets, it's a little more challenging, particularly because the urgency of like a launch, let's say you're writing a book, and you go out there and you're like, hey, you know, march 15, I want to sell X amount of copies, and you strategize everything to run towards that, well, it's really hard for someone who's folding laundry and listening to podcasts and hears about your book and likes it to stop what they're doing. Go to the website, go to Amazon and convert. So you know, if it's actually like a CPG good or something like that, it is kind of lower customer value. Podcasting, as far as like just straight purchases might not be the best conversion for you. The other side of that, though, is if you do have a sophisticated marketing department and you can repurpose the content, then you're creating evergreen assets that can work inside your sales funnel forever. And particularly if you have kind of like an undifferentiated kind of market, this is an opportunity that somebody might go with you just because they like you as a founder, as opposed to maybe a competitor that they don't know.
Yeah, I love that. And you know, it's what's interesting what we've seen about it, too, and you kind of touched on this. I like the way you worded it though, because instead of saying networking, it's like it really is a great tool for b2b or high ticket sales. I always say b2b When I say high ticket sales, but I know they're kind of they're two different things. But most, most high ticket sales are b2b, high ticket recurring sales in particular. And I've seen that same thing is like, it's never a waste of my time to go on those shows. Because every once in a while somebody say, Oh, I heard your interview on this. And that was what kind of locked them in to want to reach out to me. And you know, six months later, they did and they, you know, then they buy immediately. And they're great. It's almost like a referral at that point. Because you've built that brand strength by just going on these shows. And then you also mentioned repurposing those assets and leveraging those, obviously, that's like what we do as a business is repurpose those assets for people. And we found that just doing that makes it so that when somebody is looking for you, they're like, Wow, I know this person, right? Because the one thing that you can honestly know about going on shows or having your own show is that you gain someone's trust, when they listen to you, right? Because they're going to, you're gonna build rapport with them just simply because of that, you know, that the relationship that they're having with you, you know, in those intimate moments, when they're driving and they're meditating and you're in their ear, gabbing away, you know, it's a huge it's a huge authority booster. I know for myself, you know, I wouldn't when I'm in meditation mode in my car, and I'm going on long trips, I throw on Russell Brunson, his podcast and I don't even listen to it half the Time, it's just in the background, but simply like, his energy and everything keeps my brain awake and keeps me thinking about business. You know, I'll go through eight episodes and be like, Oh, I didn't even I don't remember anything I learned from there. But I had this all these epiphanies and other things that came from just listening. And he's, you know, I'm a funnel hacker for life, you know?
Is that Is that the one he does in his car? Yes, yeah, yeah. Oh, man, that's, that's pretty meta. It's like, you're having a one way conversation and different lanes of traffic.
Yeah, exactly. You live pretty close together to chat or something like maybe one day we'll pass each other. I'll be listening and he'll be recording.
They'll be recording.
So I can, so that I can be on one of those episodes. Right?
You can hear it a week later. Yeah, exactly.
Yeah, it's, you know, the reason I bring these topics up, you know, it's like we talked about this is that podcasting, in general is a great sales tool. It really is being on podcast, having your own podcast, listening to podcasts, they're all fantastic sales tools. And ultimately, you know, I think people like you and us, we've learned to maximise on that experience, and saying, how do we help people make real significant change. But there's one thing that I think you guys do more so than anybody else, I've seen that you really, you provide your clients with training on how to develop their story. And as the host, this is huge for someone like me, because when I bring somebody on the show, and they're either spitting facts, or like, there's just some people who literally just talk and say nothing for hours. And luckily, for all of you, I protect you, I don't post those episodes. I mean, we'll have an hour conversation, I don't get a single takeaway from them. Like, that's sad. But so you kind of have those two different lanes, then you have the people who come on, and they've got a great story, they're really good at being dynamic, because you know, there's shows are not always the same structure the same, the questions will always be different. So how would you recommend that people learn to master their story,
that, you know, the art kind of story crafting came from kind of a blind spot that I had, you know, I've been podcasting for so long and done so many episodes, and like you said, but on the other side, as an interviewer, and worked with people that you ask them a question, they say yes or no. And then you got to just fill up the space. So I think because of my comfort level, with podcasting, I forgot about the big emotions that can really arise from going on a podcast, particularly if it's your first time, or first couple of times, or it's a big show, you know, the nerves really come up. And what we saw from our clients is that is expressed in different ways. But usually, it's just a little bit of chaotic energy. And what we noticed after, you know, four or five podcast episodes, that chaotic energy was kind of harmonized naturally and went away. So in kind of that investigating, you know, what that is asking our clients, you know, hey, what was going on the beginning of the campaign, a lot of it had to do with this big, anxious energy that came up from podcasting, in particular, you know, the first five minutes a show where they say, Josh, tell me a little bit about yourself, how did you think of this product, you know, these broad, open ended questions, and you just sitting there, like, everything starts swarming you and you get, you get kind of freaked out the butterflies. So what we wanted to do is give folks a head start, you know, and it wasn't, it's not really that difficult to do. So really, it's about opening people up. And getting them to talk about their history and where they come from, you know, what you need is like, let's say 456 anecdotes that you can use, that will help kind of let the audience know where you're coming from, gives a little bit of information about how old you are, you know, your family situation, your career, where you're at your aspirations, your dreams, your hopes, all of these things that intuitively come out in stories that you can have prepared, or at least kind of sitting next to you that if you need to go to something, you can have it. And so we kind of spend time with them, and help them kind of pull out these stories, and then deliver back to them maybe a little cheat sheet so that they can queue those up in the, in the heat of the moment, as it were. And it really helps. You know, like I said, we're dealing with a lot of tech founders, we're dealing with a lot of folks that spend a lot of time in front of glowing rectangles. And just the idea of, you know, mass communication is just enough in itself to kind of get the heart rate up a little bit. So hopefully, you know, we've designed this kind of process to help bed down some of those fears and give them some confidence going into the interviews.
Yeah, well, and I love that because that's, I mean, ultimately, the story is what suck people and I actually had a coach recently and as you were talking, I was I have to write this down because stuck in my head really well, but, but he was telling me he's like, Josh, you're spending too much of your time sharing your highlight reel. He's like, start showing your fail videos, right? Like everybody loves those right? FailArmy or AFV or whatever you follow, right? They're constantly showing I watch those all the time, because they're just funny. First off, but they're highly relatable. You know, you think about the stories I mean, the one that always comes to mind I think of fail videos as people trying to swing into a river on their on a rope swings and they break or they fall or they bounce or something, right. And I can never get enough of those. If you have some good videos, she throws my way I love to see on all meet. Exactly, exactly. But you look at those and they like, they're so relatable because all of us have done it. You know, we've, we've tried to jump onto a swing. And you know, one of my favorite stories in my best friend was we were trying to swim across a canal. And he was like, I couldn't do this, because it's like 40 degrees outside and just fell into the water. It was hilarious, right? Some of my favorite moments, but it sticks with me, right. And if somebody were to tell a story like that on a podcast and relate it to a business principle, they'd have so much more clout with me, because I'm like, I get it, I've done it, you know, fell flat in the mud before it. And those are the sorts of stories that I feel like stick and you said, you mentioned five or six anecdotes? How are you helping the clients get to that point? Because everybody sits there going? And I think it's because they're thinking of their highlight reel. They're like, I don't really have six success stories yet, you know, but where are they pulling these stories from?
You know, it's a bit of a science and an art. And depending on how many layers you kind of have to get through to get someone's confidence. They might all come out at the last five minutes in conversation. You know, we brandy, our co founder, who's wonderful shoe. And she's been in PR for, you know, 10 years. And she's great at doing that. But we also have another woman who's incredibly accomplished. That does it for us to name Laurie. So I'm not on many of these. But I remember I was talking to a client, and particularly around kind of this story crafting, and he's lives in the Bay Area. And he's like, I don't know why someone would want to talk to me, I was like, Tell me about that. Like, you know, what's your story where you come from? It's like, oh, you know, it's that classic. Everyone's got the story I showed up and in LA with a briefcase and 20 bucks, and yada yada, yada. 10 years later, me and my brother just raised $20 million. And I was like, Yatta, yatta yatta, bro. Yeah, I know. I know, that's really common in like, you know, the bay, but people want to hear that story. That's a great story. So getting over kind of people's like impostor syndrome and getting over people's maybe, self deprecating nature, and just kind of piecing together and saying like, no, no, this, this is great, you know. So the art form is making them feel comfortable to share some personal details within boundaries. You know, I mean, we all have different layers of trauma and things and like, we don't want to necessarily burst into tears, you know, we're on a podcast. So navigating that takes like a certain intuition, and trust that is built over time, I think. And then just the ability to kind of differentiate the stories that might help introduce yourself to an audience, but then also kind of like lead the audience to the outcomes you're looking for. So it might not be appropriate. If you're just recruiting to, you might leave some of these anecdotes behind and choose some others. So it really just, it's all kind of customized to what they want to get out. And how comfortable they are with their own history and story.
Right. I love that. It's so funny that people will Oh, there's an alarm. You got me? I thought it was mine.
Yeah, man. I just figured out how to change the alarm. So I'm switching that sound. Everyone in my office jumps every time that goes on.
It's a just scared me. I'm like, when did I set that alarm? What is it? It's awesome. So your clocks ahead, by the way. Anyways, I digress. So coming back, though, full circle. I love that, in particular, because you're really talking about removing that posturing and getting more transparent with how we share our stories, you know, and getting back to those getting over the imposter syndrome, you know, and I really feel like a lot of it's false humility, because I also had a coach, this is years ago, who told me he's like, start bragging about yourself, it's not a problem to share your numbers and to, you know, brag about the accomplishments that you've done. As long as you don't let it go to your head and think you're better than other people or you're better than you don't feel like you can help somebody else who is, is below you quote unquote, you can't help them get because that's what you're supposed to do is you climb a stair, then you help the other person get up to that step with you, you know, and if you want to hold on tight, because that person will probably go past you and carry you with them. Right. It's such an interesting dichotomy is the right word. But you really do need to learn to speak to your successes and be willing to share them and not feel uncomfortable about sharing them, even if it seems small compared to somebody else's, but you're really sharing about how difficult was for you? Because I know.
Yeah. And I think sharing that it's uncomfortable to share is great. A lot of people feel that way. It's uncomfortable for me. If you really have that modesty, you're like, hey, you know, I want to share this stuff. It's hard for me to share and then go for it anyway, you know, that's bravery. But the other side, if you're, if it's false modesty, like I mean, the Bible describes that as a sin against God. You know what I mean? Like, if you're proud of what you got, don't, don't cow tail, because you think you're going to come off arrogant or something. I mean, there's a line to play with here. But it's okay to have success, it's okay to be excited about it. And that energy can come through to, you know, so a lot of what we work with is not necessarily that we've got a lot of folks that are real happy to break their hand patting themselves on the back.
So you're more on that. Let's bring the real back in. Wave. All right. Go ahead. How are you? Good?
Oh, no, I was just gonna say, Yeah, you know, most of our clients, it is like, helping them to see how their story is unique and amazing. And also that like, you don't have to be super comfortable right out of the gate, like where you are, is fine. Especially if you're feeling nervous, it really helps to dissipate the nerves by being like, wow, I'm actually kind of nervous right now, you know, all of this is a process. And one thing that I love about podcasting is that it's a craft of mastering speaking, and speaking itself is in communicating is a bit of kind of a magical spell, that you vibrate the air with your vocal cords. And somehow it goes into your ear. And now we have the same mental image. There's something amazing about it. And it's something that can be mastered and not perfected. So it's something that you always develop. So getting people and understanding that, like, you're gonna make mistakes, it's okay, you know, where you're at is fine. If you want to approach this as like a tool to work on for the rest of your life, you'll find incredible depth in podcasting and getting better with not only telling your story, but like just being clear in your communication.
Yeah, yeah, I love that. But you know, and this, this reminds me of a story for me, right? It's recently I've had four or five people come up to me and be like, Man, you have a voice for radio. And I just laugh at that because I'm I don't, I have a nasally voice. I hate listening to it, right. But what's come across now after practicing, and you've probably run to the same thing for yourself is you have a great voice for radio simply because it's not a comfortable anymore. And it comes from practicing your story. And that's why I think it's so cool to either go on other people's shows, or do your own or whatnot, until you feel confident doing it. Because it never feels like you're speaking in front of a lot of people, you know, because if I were to go speak on a stage in front of how many listeners we have to our show, I would be sweating every time I was going on stage. But coming on here, I'm like, I'm just talking to Ryan. It's not comfortable for me.
Yeah, it is not the same experience. Yeah, I would pass out on the stage. Right?
Well, there's some you know, because I was talking to a guy the other day he gets I want to say like four or 500,000 downloads an episode. And he's like, I've never spoke on a stage with more than 100 people because it terrifies me that every word that guy says is heard by four to 500,000. People like that's huge. You know,
what's interesting, too, is the skills don't necessarily they're not equivocal, right? We have people that are, they're the keynote guys, you know, but that's a one sided conversation. Unless they're getting heckled, then they they're prepared. These are Type A individuals, obviously, because they're giving keynotes and they have everything buttoned up perfectly. But you come on a podcast with Josh, and he's gonna lob some like curveballs at you. You know, it's we've definitely had people that have doubled back, you know, with the storkcraft. Like, I've been a keynote speaker for 10 years, going five podcasts and be like, Let's go revisit my story.
And I could see that, I'll be honest, like, we've interviewed almost 1000 People from our shows. And the truth is, is that after a while, you start to find like little things that are funny to you, and that that you make it more fun for yourself. And for me, when I see someone like that, who I know is completely postured. And like, I've got my speech prepared. I really like to talk about everything except what they came to talk about. And it's funny, because what's most of the time, they're really uncomfortable for about five minutes. And then they realize I'm not here to talk about your book that you came to talk completely prepared to talk about. But then they'll end up opening up and it becomes an amazing conversation. But it's always funny to me to see them squirm because they're like, oh, this, you're not asking the questions. I say, yeah, no, no, I'm
not gonna do that. Yeah, if you guys haven't noticed, Ryan is not doing that whatsoever, right.
Like you said, you wouldn't buy your arsenal of stories that you can hold on to and you say, You know what, that story actually relates to that question. Right. And totally well,
it also. I mean, the other thing I love about podcasting, particularly, you know, or particularly, interview podcasts is there's a sense of playfulness. You know, there really should be kind of a twinkle in your eye and like improvisation in the MO Man, because that's what's cool about a conversation, you know, and the audience will naturally gravitate to folks that are enjoying themselves talking to each other, as opposed to kind of trying to hit all the features for the new product launch. Right? And so they're
not gonna buy it anyways, if you do that, just FYI. They'll buy it, if you're like, if you don't even mention your book, like, what does this guy do? They'll google it, you'll find your book, and I'll go buy it. That's the nature of podcasting, I found. Yeah, so that's, it's such a, it's funny to see all the different types of people that are that, that can do it. But I would tell you guys, and this is something from a host perspective, it's just so freeing to be able to have these conversations, to be able to network and immediately get into circles I never would have been able to swim in before. But the funny thing is like, you're gonna get a conversation here, there, you don't get the twinkle in your eye, you don't get that fun, funny conversation. I had one recently that we're not going to post and the person was just everything that came out of their mouth, I was bored to tears. First off, and Second off, it was legal speak. And I just remember going my audience is gonna hate this. And so we won't publish it. You know, this is a pretty big name, person. And so I feel bad not doing it. But it's also one of those things where you don't have to post it. If it sucks, you got a good lesson out of the deal. And you, you don't have to post it. Don't ruin your audience or your career, because you're too scared to not post on my stuff. So that's it. And you can ask excellence, if you go into somebody's podcast, and you feel like I did a horrible job, it's okay to say, I don't really want that posted. Right? They may still post it, but most of them will.
Yeah. Or if you say something off, just being after the show be like, Hey, would you mind editing that out? I mean, it's kind of a drag, but we've never come across a time that a host has objected. And it's probably only come up six, seven times where someone needed to like recant. Right? You know, I've been in a situation to where the podcast host has been an absolute neurotic mess with a gigantic audience, you know, which is interesting. And like, it also made me feel a little more comforted to like, Okay, well, I can be a good guest and support him. Obviously, he's having a hard time right now. So yeah, I mean, it will also some of the big emotions that come is it's like you're about to talk to somebody uninterrupted, that you've never met before. There's the first introduction thing that happens and it's just a lot going on in podcasting is absolute. Just fantastic. And mysterious medium. I love it.
Yeah, when you, the people you're meeting and the conversation, just like builds trust quickly, and allows you to just be friends, which you don't get a lot of that nowadays, like being able just walk up to somebody on the street and become friends with them. It's a cool, it's a really cool medium. So you know, we've gone over time here, Ryan, but I hope people were loving this interview, because so far to me. And this has been such a fun interview for me, because we can go back and forth on it. But I want to give one little piece of advice to people who want to guest you know, first off to pieces would be go hire kick ass, or these guys are awesome at what they do to help you craft their story. But I would tell you as being the guest go on to the show and get curious about the host and get to know them and ask questions to the host, it will throw them off, but it will produce a much more listen to piece of content. I can tell you right now, if you ask the host a question that they because the host is just used to asking questions all day. But if you love the question back at them, and not a yes, no answer question but a question evoking a story that ends up producing a much better piece of content, a much better conversation kind of like Ryan, I've been doing here, I think it'll, I guess will be a great one that people listen to and hopefully inspire a lot of you to go in and either start a show or go guest on other people's shows. But so one last call to action here, guys, go to castro.com Make sure you guys go and register for that. See what those guys are doing over there. It's an amazing service. But then Ryan, I do want to ask you, if you could give us as a podcaster one final parting piece of guidance would that be
as a podcaster. Maybe I'll speak to folks that are on the fence and they're thinking about starting a podcast, I obviously really encourage that. The advice I would give is if you're going to do it commit. And don't be too harsh on yourself. One rule I gave myself in the beginning so I didn't you know get freaked out away my voice sounded or like, feel like a complete idiot. Or I have a very drill sergeant deep inner narrative narrator that kind of holds my feet to the fire all the time. So to combat that, I said, You know what, I'm going to record 100 episodes, and I'm not going to judge myself until the 100 and first. So if you're on the fence, should I start a podcast? Yes, you should. What should it be about? You got 100 episodes to figure it out. Be nice to yourself on the way.
I hope that you enjoyed this episode of The lucky Titan podcast. If you've learned anything from this or any other episode, make sure you rate it and share it with another entrepreneur could help. Thanks again and I'll catch you on the flip side
