Pop Culture podcast 22 January 2024: Sober clubbing with DJ Paulette

10:01PM Jan 21, 2024

Speakers:

Kat Brown

Helen O'Hara

DJ Paulette

Keywords:

drink

drinking

people

alcohol

soft drinks

film

helen

podcast

realise

club

places

feel

non alcoholic

wines

pop culture

drunk

taste

beer

absolutely

women

Hello and welcome to pop culture, the podcast that puts soft drinks at the top of the menu. I'm Kat Brown Arts journalist and author of it's not a bloody trend understanding life as an ADHD adult and with me is my divine co host. It's Helen O'Hara.

Hello, how you doing?

Do you want to describe what you do just in case people haven't had it hammered through their head yet?

Sure. I am also an author, I guess of mostly film related books, and film journalist and mostly for Empire Magazine, but not exclusively. If you're looking to hire someone hire me.

It's freelance month, folks. Yes, it's January when freelancers mostly just sit around going, Oh, God, why? Why did I make this career based decision? Although actually January has got off to quite a cracking really weird start.

It's been very, very busy. It's been extremely busy for you, cat. You have been doing glamorous things this week. I feel like everyone needs to know this. Because your book, as you mentioned, is out February 1 Very soon. Now finally, see, I know and you have been glimmering yourself up this week you have been getting dolled up to have photoshoots taken Tell me more.

It was amazing. I was so nervous about it beforehand, not necessarily having my picture taken. I know that I do not have good photo face and that I cannot pose to save my life that being six foot one and not a twig is essentially something that I felt not necessarily self conscious about but very aware of actually had a piece in The Times this weekend about being extremely tall paid to Nicole Kidman saying in the early years of her career, she lied about being five foot 11 because people just wouldn't audition. As it turned out. The stylist had ordered in lovely shoes, beautiful clouds. It was an all female shoots, picture editor, photographer, makeup artist and hair and everything. It was really lovely disappointing lack of soft drinks. I'm not gonna lie. It was quite a short shoot me and my publicist left everybody getting on with building the actual set and went and did a coffee run. Very wise, very nice, flat light.

Your publicist?

Outrageous. I can see how power goes to people's heads very quickly. And I'm actually looking very much at Harry on the traitors to remind myself that it can be hard to walk or having a photo shoot one minute and then potentially vanished. The next banished humbled.

Yes.

And what's been going on with you this week, Helen?

Well, this was exciting. So I am part of the Empire podcast where we talk about films every week. We also do all sorts of other podcasts as well spoilers and interview specials and things like that. But we've been doing our weekly podcast now for 12 years. genuinely, genuinely, we take two weeks off a year over Christmas. So last night we celebrated Empire 600 Oh my god. At live in London, we had an audience come in. We recorded on stage things place in London, which is a fantastic venue. Absolutely lovely people. We had movie stars, actual movie stars. I know come along. So we had me and McKenna Bruce, who made an astonishing astonishing impression in how to have sex last year if people haven't seen that it's not a sex film. Don't be put off. It's very much an examination of people coming of age and everything else. It's beautiful, beautiful, amazing film and she is heartbreakingly good in it. So we had her come along. She's a delight. She told me an incredible story about Coca Cola, which I may tell you in a minute. We also had Ray Winston proper London geezer been everything absolute movie legend and we had the human delight that is Tom Hiddleston. Amazing Loki, god of mischief himself was there. We were chatting backstage about Shakespeare because I set myself a challenge a bunch of years ago to try and see all of the Shakespeare plays Live which was helpful actually, I actually saw him do Coriolanus which was amazing. I know I have a Shakespeare buddy in my head at least

once a Shakespeare tally he started a few of them. Have you seen all of them? I

don't know if you've seen all of them. But when I said Henry the Eighth was the worst one he nodded sagely. So he is at least aware is at least read them all. He knows that Henry the eighth is the worst one if you are a Shakespeare scholar out there and disagree with me I have to respectfully say you're wrong. I hated it so much all the rest are great, but But yeah, just a wonderful puppy dog of a human being

mayor also sounds like one of the goodies please now tell me the story. She's

not as young as she looks in the film. I just want to say that because she plays I think a sort of 1617 year old in the film she is not in real life. She is a mother she is a proper grown up human being I want to make that clear because the story I'm about to tell you took place when she was younger and you may think that was yesterday so and she's a very petite person as well. Absolutely beautiful human being we had a fridge there actually have drinks for guests. So we we went out and bought some extra Diet Coke and Coke Zero which you know, most people drink there were some lovely San Pellegrino rooty warders those aren't cine drink aren't No, that's not right. Aaron Cimini would be horrendous. That would be the rice ball.

There will be the rice balls are in shelter, something Yes,

that's right. I've been studying Italian and you wouldn't know it from home. I got that

wrong, have an Italian degree. You wouldn't know that. Well,

she was having one of the orange drinks basically. And she was saying that she doesn't she's never really drunk coke. And we all expressed a bit of surprise because it's kind of unusual to never have really drunk coke. But it turns out that this is because she had a very vivid early memory of a certain UK celebrity a sort of Euro TV level celebrity in the early noughties. There was a big tabloid first if you remember, because this person had done a huge amount of cocaine and had actually lost the I think it's the septum of the nose had been basically eroded by this cocaine use and young, tiny baby me and McKenna Bruce? Yes. Got it into her head that this had happened because the lady concerned had drunk too much coke, sweet baby. I know. And so she had just never really drunk coke as a result. And even once this misunderstanding had been explained, at that point, you know, she was sort of set in her ways and was still a little bit freaked out and was like, but are we sure? Are we sure it was the other kind of coke? And not the drink that did this? Sure. Why take the chance. Why take the chance at me it doesn't mind me telling that story. But I thought it was just about the cutest thing that I've ever heard in my entire life. And like I say she's an amazing actress. She's up for the BAFTA Rising Star Award this year. By the way, just another sign of how nice Tom Hiddleston was he was giving her lots of advice on just enjoy yourself at the BAFTA is genuinely it is the being nominated that counts and you don't realise that your first time but it really is absolutely lovely people I had a wonderful time. Oh, speaking

of cinema as well, I don't think we flagged this at the time, but you and I had the great delight of being on Picturehouse cinemas the love of cinema podcast. Yes, which is a lovely roundup of some of the month's best films. I've managed to see two of them because I was recording my audio book at the time so sat wrapped as Helen told me about poor things for one. And what was the other one that I know the holdovers had used? Which I still haven't seen him gagging to now. It's

a wonderful, wonderful film. So yeah, so we talked about those two and the two that you had seen? Yes,

Priscilla, which is yes, mashing. I didn't really notice any soft drinks in that so I can't do a tenuous link. And not all the small things that is a blink one it to song all of all of our string all of us strangers like God, which is the Andrew Scott film with Paul mescal Mezcal. Thank you so much God ADHD brain going on loads of BAFTA nominations, but bewilderingly not for Andrew Scott.

I know I genuinely it's the big oversight of the BAFTA is this year for me, Andrew Scott is terrific in that film. If you're listening, Andrew, I'm sure you are and you happen not to drink or happened to ever take a break from drinking do come and talk to us just so we can write this wrong and give you the attention you deserve for that role, because it's an absolutely astonishing performance and he absolutely

could be on our podcast with makeup.

It's pretty much the same thing.

Just don't look up anything about all of us strangers. Now that I've actually pronounced it correctly do go along and see it is just gorgeous, glorious and will make you cry buckets, but not in a harrowing way, which I think is quite important.

Today cat we're drinking something called and I have no idea how to pronounce it really. I think it's Luvo it spelled L O V E A u so I'm going with a French bid for the last because this is a sparkling water apparently infused with raspberry strawberry and blueberry. It is unsweetened. It has zero calories and zero sugar. I'm hoping it's nice because I like all those words I like water. I like berries. If this is tasty I'm in seventh heaven. They have also helpfully put the pronunciation in a sweet little pink speech bubble on the back so they have well done very nice. Oh this is nice as well. We support a cause close to our hearts making a donation to UK diabetes charities for every cancelled this is epic. So even if I don't actually like it, I still love it. Oh, that's fantastic. All right, here we go.

Okay, I am actually getting berries in this night because it's unsweetened. And because it is very watery. It does a little bit tastes like you know I've washed the berries and then I'm drinking the water that I washed them in. It's a hint of berry rather than a full sweet experience. I still think there's more taste to it than ugly or dash that's true. It's still nowhere near enough flavour that I would like but I will stick to feel good for that but I can taste like all of those flavours and they taste like legitimate fruit as opposed to the end of the fruit that is then passed through. Yeah, like like you had a smoothie and then you poured a bit of water in the glass and sort of are knocking it back from the same glass it does taste like real fruit and not just you know that you know used to get those flavoured sparkling waters that were flavoured with something very weird and and very artificial. It doesn't taste that way. It does taste like fruit but it tastes like a hint of it rather than the full whammy Yes, exactly that so yeah, this is this is pretty good. You could neck this and not really have any problems but I don't think I love it. But that is again just because of my preferences regarding fruit flavoured sparkling waters indeed. Yeah, yeah, fair enough. Frankly, ridiculous array. They are growing I think

You know, it's the kind of stuff that we talk about in this podcast all the time. It's people wanting something that isn't very sugary something they can sit and drink and sip at the same rate that people are sitting in sitting and drinking sipping their alcohol. I think in that respect, it would probably work. You could sit with this on a train opposite your friend with a g&t and a can and it would sort of work. Not a huge taste moment. No.

I haven't had any exciting drinks next week. I feel like I've failed us all as a podcast host because I've been to work essentially. And I've gone to several screenings that haven't had any drinks available. And the one screening I went to I went to the screening of Mean Girls, which was very fun, the new Mean Girls musical film, but that was sponsored by I think Malibu so they had loads of those which was great for the drinkers but not so great for me personally and nothing against it. I understand Malibu has sponsored the event, therefore, they want to put their drinks in front of people. I understand that. But yeah, I was basically left with the choice of Diet Coke or water, the two staples back again, back once again. So I will try and do better than this coming week and actually try some interesting new drinks. Yes. You have, however, profiled somebody who surprisingly turns out to be quite legendary teetotaller. I had no idea please tell me more. I wrote a profile in Empire Magazine this month about Mae West. And Mae West was for those of you who don't know the name was a film star of the sort of 1930s. At one point, she was the second highest paid person in the US behind I think only Rockefeller, and she was a massive, massive success. And she was known for being by the sounds of the time, at least, very sort of sexually suggestive, you know, she was I don't think she ever said a single entendre in her life. I think every single word out of her mouth was a double entendre. But she didn't drink. She said that basically, alcohol cuts down on who you are, why would I need to cut down on who I am? Was her line about it, one of sort of history's famous unlikely if you like teetotallers, because she projected so much appetite in every other aspect of her life that I think she's one of those people that people would never think was teetotal. And you know, the way people associate not drinking with abstinence, I think we've talked about this before, but I have a lot of people, old friends, maybe you haven't seen me in a few years. And let's say we go out for dinner, and they go, Oh, Helen, you're vegetarian, aren't you? But they associated me with some kind of abstinence, and they're not quite sure what there is this perception of non-drinking being a bit, you know, possibly holy, possibly, you know, abstemious, very, very holy, yeah. Someone like my waist just goes to show it's not necessarily that it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with that. Not a moral thing. It's just sometimes I don't particularly like drinking, I don't particularly like the effect it has on me. I don't mind if you do it, I'm totally fine with that. All of her films basically take place in you know, speakeasies and nightclubs, and everything else. She was very comfortable, very at home being around drinkers, she just didn't do it herself, you know. So that's what a woman said for not needing help. In that way. I very much went around this in the wrong way. Because I always associated not drinking with some kind of lack, like, Oh, you're missing out or blah, blah, blah, and that sort of thing. Or, oh, but cocktails are delicious. wine is delicious, both of which are true, true. But sometimes I think certain ways of using alcohol can also be illustrative of a lack. Whether it's reassurance or comfort in a situation or something. So that is really cheered me up. Wasn't she? Is there a gun in your? Is that a gun in your pocket? Are you just pleased as seeming, she also said what I'm good, I'm very good. But when I'm bad, I'm better. Gorgeous. That was to Cary Grant, by the way, who she cast opposite her as her love interest in one of his very early films. The woman had taste.

We have been, I would not like to say bombarded because it's January, and nobody's got the energy for that. But lots of people have been in touch to tell us about some new non alcoholic bar openings, which is really exciting. Yeah, one which opened a little while ago, but still very much gonna flag up, particularly for anybody around Leeds at the functional drinks club has opened in oddly in North Leeds and has kombucha on tap sounds right up my street. And then there's a new non alcoholic bar that's just opened in Manchester. Yeah, I think that one's love from gorgeous, absolutely fantastic to see that there are many more options becoming available to people. And I think we are going to have to do some road tripping soon and see if we can get some of these places and try some of their selections. The fact is, like we say, a few years ago, you simply wouldn't have had enough options to fill a bar and certainly not enough drinkable options to fill a bar. So just the existence of these places is already really exciting. Can't wait to go and visit few more of them. Yeah, and it's really nice seeing some of the popups coming as well because they may not be permanent. But it's a great way for people to be able to test the water and see what the call is there. And I think we're going to arrange to go and see lovely Laura Willoughby from club soda at the club, soda tasting rooms pop up in central London soon. Yeah, that will be amazing. That will be a little bit like going to Willy Wonka's chocolate factory. I'm pretty sure it's the same effect. Yeah, it's just filled with drinks for us are fabulous.

Today's guest is an international DJing icon. She was one of the first female DJs at the Hacienda in 1992. And her career has spanned every country imaginable. Although you may not know it because she has been written out as much of the history written about club culture. In 2022, DJ Paulette was the winner of the DJ Mag Top 100 Lifetime Achievement Award, among others and her new book welcome to The Club. The Life and lessons of a black woman DJ is published on January 26, by Manchester University Press. And it's both a memoir and a fantastic history of club life music DJing and how women and black women especially can be silenced by not being able to take their place in history. Paulette ditched alcohol a few years ago, and now favours tea and no zecco at gigs. And in this interview, she tells us the real secret to dancing sober, which was actually quite life changing for me, the lessons she took from clubbing at 15. Finding something you like to drink, rather than focusing on replacements, and how to take your deserved place in the world is DJ Paula.

Well, DJ Paula, welcome to pop culture podcast, we're delighted to have you today. Thank you for inviting me, I do love talking about the mission of being sober in this environment. Because when I decided to make the big break with drinking, am I gonna be able to work the same as I've always been working because I consider myself quite interesting and funny drinker. And I like drinking, I like alcohol, I didn't give up because I didn't like alcohol, I gave up drinking, because I knew it would be better for me to do that. So there's a kind of shift in perspective, really, because most people when they give up, it's because they've been really ill, or they've had a health crisis. I didn't have any of that particularly, but I just knew for the things that were happening for me, it would be better for me, and I would feel better if I stopped. But I just absolutely loved drinking. So finding that place in myself where I could actually work in DJ in hospitality and events, culture where it was on tap, literally on tap. I had three drinks all night, or I had a rider of 2050 pounds wherever it's different everywhere. And people were making cocktails and trying them out and saying try this people buy me a drink because they like the music that I was playing to stop that, am I actually going to be the same person because there's part of me linked to being a little bit drunk. And there's the fear that you're suddenly going to be very different, very boring that people aren't going to connect to you on the same level because you know that you're not going to connect to them on their level. You can't connect to them on their level. As soon as you stop drinking. You're not a drunk anymore. You're not Larry and loud. All of a sudden, everything becomes an overstimulation. Your mates become an overstimulation. It's like wow, why are we talking so loud and repeating themselves? Um, you notice the things that people do when they're drunk, but you didn't notice when you were doing it? Because you were doing it too. And then suddenly, it becomes this affront like, Oh, my God, that just so loud? Why do you have to be so loud? Because they're drunk, and you're not the biggest mountain to climb with this change in personality, getting back into your own real skin and being in it every second of the day, and then not being removed from that person. I am always now very solidly me being a DJ, right? And I'm obviously not, but I'm sort of imagining you're struggling to be in sync with everyone. You're trying to keep the crowd with you. You're trying to tune in almost to an energy a vibe in the room. So did that become harder? Or was it actually that's a different skill set that you find was still there, the fear is that it's going to be different that you're not going to be able to connect to people. As I worked in it, I realised that actually I can do this without alcohol like it's to do with me my intuition me tapping into that vibe. And I can do that any day of the week. My intuition has to be really sharp. I can walk into a room and no, I call it taking the temperature so I can feel how it needs to be warmed up. So if I'm playing first, I just need to listen and feel and think for this space. What needs to be done in order to bring this up. I don't know if it's like that for everybody. But it's like that for me. In fact, alcohol is a switch that can some

times might you misunderstand that. Whereas I think when you're straight, when you're sober, you're very aware of the tiniest shifts in energy, and really what's needed. And I think I impact it's not I think I know that my playing is improved massively not being drunk. So what was alcohol giving you for that very long period during your career and with other people coming up to you and everything, it does give you a connection to the people that you're working with, because they're serving you, and you're taking traits of them. And it's very, in French, though, that there's the word conviviality. So it's that friendship, that friendliness, that connection that when you say, Oh, I don't drink or I just want a tea. There's never a kettle anyway. So they decide, okay, like, is she feeling alright?

And then it's like, yeah, I'm feeling all right. But I just want to tea. And if there's not as tea, what soft drinks have you got? And then they say water.

And then they say, Well, we've got Fanta lilting Coke, and I'm like, I don't drink fizzy drinks. What have you got? And then it's the list of nothing, the long list of nothing, or it's the short list of cranberry juice and pineapple juice. And that's the locked and people think that is good enough for people who are not drinking and it has been my mission really for people and saying, Can you get a non out brand Please What's up with the non I don't drink no, no beers. I don't really like the taste of them. But there are many non our brands seedlip or liars. There are many non out brands and even lots of the supermarket's have their own non ALC versions of spirits and beers and stuff. So it's like you don't have to go far just go to same as me is and get a bottle of no zecco.

Job done. I think I've diverted but no,

no, that's 100%. Our basic premise for this whole thing is oh my goodness, I'm so bored of orange juice and cranberry. Yeah.

And it was just I remember, it was 2019. And the way out here, festival just launched. And it wasn't just way out here because I'd started playing a lot of festivals. And I noticed that in the daytime, you could get a cup of tea and a coffee, water, no none out beers, no none out options, Coca Cola, Fanta Sprite. And then when that was done that was done. So getting towards the end of the day, I could only drink water. It's like, Why does everyone else get a choice of what they want to drink? But then when you say I don't drink alcohol, it's like, oh, well, there you go. And I think that's one of the things that makes people not go well because they haven't got a choice. So if I don't drink, I can't sit in a pub with my mate. Because I've got nothing to drink. It's not interesting to me to drink water all night. It is absolutely not interesting to me to drink banter or they'll all night either. I don't like them. 2019 I really struggled that year because I was playing a lot of festivals. And even for my rider, I asked for peppermint or chamomile tea, a bottle of nose zecco if I'm going to be barreled out, because it kind of looks to people that are looking at you like you're drinking but you're not. I mean, sometimes I really play into the tea thing. And I have a tea pot and a cup and I will make people see that I'm drinking tea because I think it's important to send that message across that you don't actually need to be drunk in a club to enjoy the means that can survive.

That was one of the questions I wanted to ask you. You know, what would you sort of say to people who genuinely can't imagine dancing sober? I know people who will not get off the wall until they're three drinks in? Yeah. And I feel like there is a mental block for a lot of people.

Yeah, there is and I had to get into that headset because I'd lost that. I had to remember when I started going clubbing when I was 15 years old. I didn't really like the taste of alcohol. You know, I was 15 So I had a 15 year old palate. I used to take sweets to nightclubs, them handout mint imperials and didn't think that was weird. And lucky. I'm thinking yeah, so Cuba, people must realise straight away that I was underage because I had a bag full of licorice, all sorts and little hit of sugar every now and then was what I needed. I loved going to clubs, and I love dancing. And I knew when I was 1516 years old that I did not need alcohol to have a good time and there's no club I had the time of my life from 15 to 18 When I started properly drinking and joining nightclubs, for the music, the people, the dancing the friendships. That's why I went out so I had to remember what that had said. It was and it's like, well, what's the difference between then and now? Well, I couldn't really buy it there. So it wasn't natural to me to go to the bar and say, Oh, I'll have a vodka in orange or a vodka in apple juice. It's not a natural drink or a 1516 year old, so I suppose so it's like, Well, how about if I remove that from my head, and thinking that I just don't order it? In the beginning working in bars, I'd be asking them to make me a mocktail. So make me that cocktail, but without the alcohol. But then I thought, but then you're just still trying to drink alcohol. So let's just ask for root drink. Or let's just ask for a tea and see how that goes. And slowly but surely, I stopped drinking.

I'm very here for your campaign to get more kettles in.

Seriously, because I'm telling you the feeling of having that cup of tea that you really want, especially in a nightclub, especially in a festival atmosphere, it cannot be bad, I don't know whether it's health and safety or what but if every festival green room could make sure they had a kettle and the tea bag, and that somebody at some point during the time that I was playing, would bring me because I actually go off stage and just I'm just making a cup of tea just

anybody else want one?

I should do that, though. It's just a row. Could be a thing I would love if every green room just had just as a matter of cautious as natural not that you had to ask for it just that it would be fair. You shouldn't have to ask for it. It shouldn't have to be on my ride or it should be there. How

essential or how much do you think alcohol contributes to the feeling of a dance floor? Because I haven't investigated this yet. But that's more me being surrounded by lots of people and the concept or I've seen such a huge rise, particularly in London of sober raving, whether that's morning noon night. Yeah, but part of me still even after for four and a half years not drinking is a bit like a little bit. How do I get that feeling to go on the dance floor as opposed to just going for it? Stop

being fearful of not enjoying it, is what's in our head because the feeling is always in you. As soon as you listen to music, the feeling is actually attached to the music. It's not attached to the alcohol. Yeah, for sure we know the effect that drugs can have on people when they're listening to music. So for sure, different drugs have different effects on the dance floor that is very definite. But whether it makes you more or less likely to dance, I think it's the music that does that this this is chicken and egg. Is it the music that makes a difference? Or is it the alcohol that makes the difference. And if people can actually get into the head, it's me in the music, it's not me in the dress, or it's me in the music, it's not me and the drug and then they can separate that need for having one or two that will take the edge off. You don't need that. It's a trick. And it's a trick that things like alcohol and drugs play on you to make you keep drinking.

The key thing I remember for me as a teenager is looking around and you know, all my friends drank and drink pretty much I was kind of used to that. But looking around and sort of realising Well, nobody's actually looking at how I dance. Nobody cares how nobody's gonna be like, Oh, delicate dance, because like, I'm looking at you all. And we're all in the same boat here. We're all. Yeah, I mean, dodgy at times. Yeah. And then just let go. I

mean, even if they did, so what? So what, we're all there for the same reason. And if we can't dance today, and we can never dance in our entire lifetime, does it matter? Just do what you do.

You see people who are not necessarily technically quote unquote, good dancers, but they're clearly having a ball and nothing is more beautiful. Nothing is more joyous.

And it's the release. This is why I say it's more to do with what's in our head than what's in our hand. It's more to do with how we are comfortable being in a space full of people we've never met before and being so vulnerable because you do kind of put yourself in a very vulnerable space to enjoy and come out of yourself around a lot of people that you don't know it's the vulnerability that I think scares people. I think that vulnerability became more pronounced after locked down because we've been away from people for a long time. So getting that confidence back to just walk on to a dance floor and Just Dance like nobody's Watching. That was hard. And I understand that but I think it's a lot more to do with vulnerability and the psychology of it more than its to do with what's in your hand and what might loosen the tongue and loosen the footwork because that's actually not true.

It's interesting about dance like nobody's watching, because obviously now with tick tock Instagram, camera phones everywhere, we don't really go to many places where you can't you can't be seen or watched or potentially go viral. And I was just wondering, obviously, you are the person at the front of the stage you are commanding a roomful of people, how does your confidence go with being filmed or being watched or that sort of time? I

don't mind being officially filmed. I don't like having phones pointed at me at all. I think it's an intrusion. I really do think it's an intrusion it is anyway, I mean, you wouldn't just walk down the road and take pictures of just anybody. But that's what you're doing. When you go into a nightclub and you're pointing camera phone at somebody, you know, there might be somebody in your area that you don't know that isn't one of your friends, that's actually quite rude. You're kind of pushing into their world when you shouldn't be in their world. Or you should at least ask for permission. You know, you don't just shove a camera in somebody's face and expect them to like it. And depending on you know, where I am in my set and how I'm concentrating, I don't like those kinds of interruptions. And I don't like having the flash in my eyes. I've got glaucoma anyway. So that is please do not shine. It's almost like Retin A burning light in my eyes while you're filming. And they're set. They have played quite recently in Sheffield, the club had a no phones on the dance floor policy. And the difference that made the difference that made to the way people engage with music was massive because people really got into the music from the first minute they were on the dance floor. Everybody was having a great time. Everybody was actually really listening to the music. Nobody was filming. And I know certain clubs are actually starting to take this on board like fabric in London where they have a no phones policy. It's really important. Get rid of phones off the dance floor a new will actually realise that it's nothing to do with alcohol. why people don't don't

cover? Absolutely. I mean, you've you've travelled around the world, you're literally an international DJ. Yeah, have you find places that were better for non alcoholic options? If you find places that are worse, you know, what's your impression?

I think everywhere is just as bad as the other. I think everybody's just learning it feels very much early days for anyone packing anything interesting, non alcoholic. I don't think any one club is worse than the other. I mean, actually, that's wrong, some are better than others providing option for people. You know, beyond Fanta Coke, you know, there are places that have the full range and they have, you know, mixologist that can make the equivalent of an alcoholic cocktail, and you would not know that the alcohol was it wasn't in it, apart from the fact that you don't wake up with a hangover the next day. But I think in general, no one's worse than the other. And I don't think it's malicious. It's just we're in that learning phase where people have to figure out how many of their crowd are not drinking in order to make it viable to buy in a load of non ALC stuff that they don't want to be stuck with at the end of the party that they can't return. You know, so I know how it works. There's the financial consideration that goes into any of these places providing that out and like say nobody likes to get stuck with something that nobody wants to drink, or that not enough people want to drink whereas we be like ah, this is Happy Valley we've got all this choice but there's not enough of us still to make that a financially viable consideration for a massive festival but I you know, I noticed like this fear of Parklife that they made a lot more provisions for people that didn't drink alcohol so for me if they can do it, so can everybody else.

You mentioned palette earlier and Yeah, certainly this is a big difference between Helen and I because Helen has never drank alcohol and ever in your life. Not really now when you were mentioning like being young and going clubbing and having the sweets and everything but I absolutely love this passage in your in your book about your weekly drinks order. Yeah. Wow. So anybody else who'd be you know, just cheap old vodka and that sort of thing, but we've gotten three bottles of perfume a Viane. Yeah. Three bottles of Bordeaux, Pixar new. Yeah. number one favourite red wine from Montpellier long. Two bottles of ruin our champagne, which I'm pronouncing horribly but thank you very much.

On Instagram, they there was a clip over a woman saying, If you can't get this drink in France, it's because you're not pronouncing it right. And she ran through the whole gamut of wines, red wines, white wines, champagnes and it's like, you pronounce it like this. It's smoke but it's not mo A, it's, it's a light and she went through the whole thing. And it's, I was listening to it. And I thought, yeah, they're really snobby in France about how you've pronounced their drink.

You were drinking very dry, delicious, like whites and champagnes, and then having these really heavy, rich, moody reds, which,

yeah,

as you said, you're presented with Fanta, what do you do? Yeah,

yeah. Because, because I really liked the Tater. And obviously, you certain wines go better with certain foods. And I was eating a lot of meat in France and really good steaks. I mean, I don't eat anything, like the amount of meat that I eat, they're here, because the quality is different. And you know, certainly in terms of wines, when I came back to the UK, I wasn't, I kind of started drinking less anyway, because the level of wine that you get in France, for a certain price is almost like double or triple the price. But I really liked heavy, heavy wines in France, they would say custard custard, which is like a really dislike a well built, man. So they'd say, if when I ordered my wines, it's Oh, six stored? It's like, yeah, no, I like it heavy. And so coming off that and finding a non ALC equivalent. It was like, I can't find a non Alka equivalent for what goes with certain meats, because there isn't that non Aukey equivalent for awhile, if I'm having fish, then it's this and if it's me, then it's this, you start to realise that you're out of the dinner party, game or conversation a little bit because you're not enjoying the flavours in the same way that they are and you're not enjoying the meal. That kind of evolution of the meal. You know, I was watching Nigella Lawson's Amsterdam Christmas, and she was like this shot and this drink. And that goes with this. And it's like, you're actually getting really pissed. Reveal. And if you don't do that, then your food actually tastes like the way you're eating is different. And the way you enjoy is different. And is there an equivalent to a pre fu May? I don't think there is that I don't think there is a non alkie equivalent to a pre foo Mini. I don't think there is a nun out equivalent to to go in now. Or, you know, I really don't think there is so I think we have to kind of do away with that. Like for like idea of not drinking because you're not going to find it because in that there has to be that mix of them and tation and alcohol and you can't match the ageing of a whiskey like I don't think you can match a 14 year or 12 year old McCallum you know, whatever. I don't think you can do that. Yet, at least with non elk.

That's a really good point, though, but not looking to match because certainly whenever I used to do dry January or something I'd be like, right, I need to feel like I'm not missing anything. And I actually also want to be drunk but without technically having alcohol from what you're seeing about dancing, I suppose as well is maybe it's about less escaping into the drink and more about sort of embracing that conviviality and finding ways of getting that conviviality with people exactly

without it being alcohol or drug clared rather than say I'm replacing Whiskey with this or gin with that, just find a nun out during that you like to drink and get back. So you know what you're going to order when it goes to the bar or the pub or the club or whatever. So you feel like you're in the same routine as everybody else that has that immediate go to. So someone else will say, Oh, I'll have a whiskey and coke or I'll have a JD and whatever. And you'll be like, Oh, well, I'd like to have a seedlip. And if they sell seedless, can I have an apple juice and cranberry mixed together?

And if that was my go to for a long time, actually.

And if they say no, then it's like, oh, well, what have we got Ben, just get that drink you like rather than trying to find a replacement that isn't there. And that when they give you something that is kind of similar, it's going to be a disappointment, and then you feel like, oh, it's really shit. Not drinking. Actually, I don't like this. And it makes it harder. It's just like, No, just find something you like to drink. It gets easier.

It does get easier. What drink would you put into a non alcoholic Hall of Fame?

There is mixologist that Albert Schloss, who is just absolutely fantastic Marcel, and he could make any vegetable and fruit absolutely sing on the palate. He was so good. But he didn't drink, right. So he his understanding of what not drinking men was like totally different to what other mixologists were doing. So I mean, he would present me with mocktails, which was just like a work of art. And anything that he made me I was always putting pictures of it on my Instagram, like Look what I've got, because he just sent me his drinks. That would be a mixture of cucumber and strawberry or just make something that was so refreshing and so delicious. And then put a little bit of sweetness in with a vanilla syrup or whatever. He just knew how to mix the flavours around whatever the wheel of flavours was that I was using. And he was just really, really clever. So I would rather than picking any wandering card, say anything that he made anything more cellmates. Yeah. And he doesn't do it anymore, which isn't, you know, everybody moves on, but he gave me a lot of really good memories of working in that place because it just made not drinking and absolute joy. And it actually spoiled me for going anywhere else because anytime I'd asked for a mocktail anywhere else, it was like Marcel's way.

I think we're all going to be very deep into your Instagram feed.

Job is so funny. No. Marcel. Yeah, like being a share. You know, being a mixologist is like being a chef, just knowing how to marry one flavour with another but he was somebody that knew how to do it none out with now having to get somebody really, really pissed. It's like, No, I just want to make a really nice string. There's somebody that's gonna make them feel like they're drinking a really nice drink. That

is basically what you have done all your career with music, and arguably what you've done with Welcome to the club, which is just thank you brilliant read, incredibly atmospheric, almost like a piece of history as well as your own experience. What would you hope that your reader takes away from reading your book,

I'd like people to realise that history is happening all the time to everybody. And everybody's story is irrelevant. Silence is the most damaging thing. staying silent is the most dangerous thing we can do. Because in one way it is accepting that people are going to forget our history or our contributions. And women are terrible for doing that for stepping back and saying, you know, it's okay, I got this award, but nobody mentioned it, or I did this thing. You know, I made this scientific discovery or I made this astronomical. And it happens in every discipline, where women have made the discoveries, but men have taken the sunshine for it. And they've kind of sat back and gone, oh, well, maybe one day they'll put my name on that paper, but they never do. So that's the other message that I want to get is one don't accept that, too. As soon as it happens, say and say excuse me, and don't be afraid of being that voice that says this isn't right, or I want to be included because men do not have that fear. Men will put their hands up and say that was me that did that men will own their story. And women do not own their story and what I want people to take away male or female, whoever gender, race, whoever is, own your story, own it and tell it and if nobody wants to publish it is 2024. Now, you can do it yourself, put it online, make a noise, be loud. And if you can get it published even better, amen.

I think that's a great note to end on. How about you?

Oh, agreed that was fabulous. I'm just going to make a ringtone last minute. Instantly caught myself for the first time. What

do I mean? I have spent a lot of time being silent. And I think this is what's made the difference. People continually say to me, Oh, I can see your everywhere and I can hear your voice. And it's like, because I'm talking now, because I spent a lot of or more. It's because I've spent a lot of years being silent about things I shouldn't have been silent about. And that's what I want people to also realise is that this silence is dangerous, silent, kills. silence can kill your career, what silence does in terms of even our politics, if we do not say if we do not vote, we're stuck with that. So if you want change, you've got to start making a noise about it. And if you want to change yourself, you have to start kind of coughing up the furballs. It has been like seven years of coughing up furballs that I've just been gathering in my stomach for years. And now it's like, Ah, it's actually really nice, because all that further I was digesting that I shouldn't have been digesting is gone.

is the best possible palate cleanser to re

watch the Dow with a nice tea. Thank

you so much. Well, it was just absolutely amazing. pleasure talking to you. Lovely talking to you. It's a real joy. Good luck with the rest of your day.

What a complete delight. That was absolutely fascinating. I am so excited now to go to any event ever and see a DJ with a teapot that is now my ambition in life. I need to see a DJ with a teapot. She's just so rock and roll. Yeah.

And she also brings back that excellent point around green rooms, particularly around events. Like there's always, you know, lots of booze around stuff to keep people up. But actually, sometimes you just want something even more comforting or as she said brilliantly, just having something that you like to drink. Yeah, if you don't want to drink booze, and then you don't have to spend lots of time fretting about it. I really liked the lazy genius Podcast. I'm not sure if she has ADHD, but she was recommended by somebody else who is one of the things that she says is just being able to make a decision once. And I mean, that would just take so much stress out of it, just to know that oh, there's a kettle, I can get some tea. Marvellous done. Yeah, I've sort of been avoiding going to big events for a while just because I'm just not feeling super comfortable around people like find at the theatre because everybody's quiet and sitting down technically. But she's really given me some food for thought about being able to enjoy myself and enjoy why I'm there next time rather than worrying about what people are thinking because they're not going to be thinking about me. Well,

this is it. I think this is the big revelation almost in life is that people are paying you far less attention than you think they are, you know, as a person who never drank going to clubs as a teenager, when you are incredibly self conscious, you know, was a difficult thing. I loved her idea of bringing just sweets with you that would have I would have loved that that would have been amazing. I do have to almost flip a mental switch when I'm in a sort of club situation or even like I mean, nowadays, we're talking more dancing at a wedding. Like just saying, okay, hell, nobody's gonna look at you know, you're just gonna go and dance. I'm telling myself, nobody's gonna look at you. Nobody cares. Doesn't matter that you're not the world's best dancer. Obviously, I'm close. I'm like top 10 Obviously, obviously,

I mean ROG at my wedding.

Thank you very much. You had an amazing band who were playing TV themed June, this is absolutely my art my street, we would literally hit the dance floor and dance all night. And it's almost easier to do that than to sort of stop and start and come back out. If you if you've got if you've gotten a club with a good DJ, obviously, DJ Paul, that would have been ideal. And you just stay on the floor and you stay with the beat and you just kind of go with it. It's just so much fun.

pullets book is really fascinating history of clubbing club land, and it's got so many brilliant pictures in it, which I really loved. And actually, whilst I was reading it, as much as I would have loved to think that my book was sort of comparable in that way. I think yours women versus Hollywood is an amazing comparison in terms of how women have been silenced in the film industry and not sort of like oh shut your lip but literally having opportunities taken away having entire careers removed at One of the most of the many fascinating things that I learned from your book and when it was also serialised for women's hour on BBC Radio four, was that like women had absolutely dominated Hollywood as directors, writers as well as performers before the 1920s. That was astonishing to me. And then as soon as it became, like successful and something that, you know, men particularly wants to watch, a certain type of man wants to be involved in, all of that was removed from

the they were literally literally written out of the history books, which is obviously what do to pull that has found as well. So it really is, you know, it's not something people are making up, this is something that actively happened. It's happening nowadays. And I think it's good that we're trying to actively correct that in a lot of cases and put people back in the picture and get back to talking about things like I was reading a fascinating, I mean thread and not even a proper article, but a thread online during the week about the fact which I was vaguely aware of, but not in the detail that women were brewers for most of history. That was it was a woman's job to drink to make beer, and it was mostly woman's job to drink beer, because it was the weakest form of alcohol. So if we're talking, you know, just trying to get yourself drunk, it takes a lot more beer to get a man drunk than a woman drunk. So the would have been a cottage housewives industry for a long time, Whiskey was a cottage housewives industry. And it's when money came into the equation that it became, you know, male dominated, because it became an industry and women weren't allowed to do industries. And and the same thing happened with film. And, you know, it's, it kind of goes back to what we were talking about last week, with small, idealistic companies suddenly losing those ideals, maybe when they're bought up by bigger entities, and we have to hope that they will keep those ideals as they, as they get bigger and go forward. But yet anyway, I just find DJ Polit super inspiring, and in all of that, and I thought, what fun oh, my god, yeah, want to go to one of her nights? No,

completely. And she also just reminds us that, you know, history is happening. Now. It's not something that happened 1020 3040 50 years ago. And we do need to be alert and aware of it. Terry White for editor of empire, and a brilliant writer, as well flagged up that the number of women having opportunities behind the scenes in television is just going down and down and down as directors as writers and so on. We've also seen a fairly limited number of female directors and writers being nominated at the awards this season, it sort of feels like such a shame that there would be like a fairly decent expansion. And this also goes for people of colour, who's 2020. But sort of feels like Oh, we did our bit, we had a couple of years where we made an effort with women and people of colour, and anybody who didn't look like you know, Dave over here, and it's just a bit tiring, and we didn't want to do it anymore. So it's all

about keeping up the effort for sure. Quick shout out actually for girls on film podcast with which we're not involved, particularly. So thank goodness, we finally mentioned something we don't do, although I have guested on it before. But that's Anna Smith's podcast. And they have actually announced their own Film Awards this year, which are entirely for women or non binary people in the film industry. And they have got an incredible list of nominees because the talent is there, so don't sleep on them. Anyway, that's a whole other podcast. I feel like we're getting into the pop culture, you know, culture a bit rather than the pop bit if you like,

this is true. Well, shall we? Should we pop into the mailbag?

Oh yes, let's do it.

We have a letter from snow Yuka or jacket or Jessica and Steph, I have super apologise for jumbling your name. Hi, Helen and Kat and team if you have a team,

we're a team. We're a team but we do not have a team God bless you for thinking we might have

Steph indeed, Switzerland calling happy loving international listener. My current favourite drink has been shared before it's gonna zero from the fridge. So I thought I'd share a very short anecdote instead. When I was about a year sober and living in Edinburgh, it was 2012. So there weren't many non alcoholic drinks options. I went to a pub for drinks with a friend one night and wanted to get something other than tap water so they would actually make some money. So I ended up drinking three cans of Iron Brew having no idea that it contain caffeine. When I got back home at midnight, I was buzzing with a sugar and caffeine. Hi, that was pretty fun. Also, I have a question for the podcast. What is the shelf life of non alcoholic beverages like beers, wines or spirits? And are they safe to drink past the expiration date? This is such a great podcast idea, although it took me an embarrassingly long time to get the pun. Anyway, I'm already looking forward to your Christmas episode so we can all share mulled wine recipes. Thank you by Steph. PS if you're ever in Switzerland shop verblijf High is an excellent alcohol free beer PPS ADHD gang Fist Bump, bump right back stuff amazing ADHD crew Harar. And would you like to explain the pun of pop culture for listeners who may have just thought that we just didn't think it through?

Yes it now well, so we are obviously both cultural journalists in our in our sort of day jobs and pop of course is another word for soft drinks, you know, sodas and so on. Have you seen those maps those fabulous maps which map whereas the US calls it so don't worry calls it pop and things like that. And I think there's something similar on that one to the UK. So if you're from a soda part of the country or similar, I apologise but yes we thought pop culture which was cats upon credit where it's due was was pretty great. And analyse

the landscape of pop culture of soft drinks in the same way we

analyse the pop culture landscape

Helen what is the shelf life of non alcoholic drinks?

Look, I am so the wrong person to ask about this. And I'll tell you why I have a very casual relationship with best before dates. I tend to do the look at the sniff and the you know, poke a finger in it and see if it moves test for these things. So yes, if something looks dodgy and is past its best before date, then of course I'm not going to eat it all. I am not a completely crazy person. But if it's still the right colour if it still smells, right, if there's no gunky weirdness around the container, I will often ignore the the best before day I will I will say that. So what I would say is yes, the the sort of shelf life of soft drinks can be shorter than alcoholic drinks, certainly then, you know, wines and spirits and things like that, but it's not necessarily zero and if it hasn't been opened, if it is in a sealed container, it will probably last a decent amount of time. There are obviously exceptions to this cartons of orange juice. I mean, come on. Obviously, if it's fizzy, don't drink it, that's bad. Generally speaking, if it's in a can, it's going to last for quite some time. So you can probably like I say, be a bit wary if it's past the best before date, but don't necessarily immediately check it out without having a look that would be my personal approach. I will say however that some of the non alcoholic spirits that I've tried in the past so I had a bottle of it would have been seedlip I guess, which I took a bit from and then I used up all the tonic I hadn't heist and I never think to buy tonic because why would I it's a bit useless on its own. So I forgot to buy any more. And so the bottles sat there in the cupboard in much the way that I keep half bottles of rum that I've bought from making a cake in the cupboard. And it did eventually develop a gross skin and I did throw that away obviously did not pass the sniff or look test. So they will not last forever in the same way that some of those half bottles of gin have absolutely lasted forever like in my cupboard but yeah, I would I would not necessarily live your life one best before date at a time. And she's a lawyer, ladies and gentlemen. Oh god, I'm gonna take this as as my own lawyer, please don't take that as gospel.

We also had a message from Max K over on Instagram where we are pop culture drinks podcast, Max says sentier is worth checking out very interesting because it's a bit more science based than a booze free beer or something like that. I'm not that into beer tasting things. So I'm always looking out for stuff that actually tastes nice. This one's botanical and engages with your brain to get that nice calm feeling that people chase with drink without feeling crap or out of control, et cetera. Lefthanded giant are a great Bristol brewery who do a Radler, that 0% really nice and not beer like at all worth checking out. I'm so glad the smaller breweries are providing options as places like brew dog always get mentioned in the Convo they're not someone I'd be pushing. Great podcast. By the way. I'm similar to Helen in the way that I've just not been a drinker. And it's so nice to see the world catching up with us all a bit. And there being options and awareness now. I'm sick of brands like Coca Cola being the only options. Well, Max, you'll be delighted to hear that actually on next week's podcast. We haven't. I was about to say we have a drink with no, that would be lovely. We have an interview with Professor David Nutt, who is the science the brains behind sentier and also just a total legend. If you've never heard of him before, please google him. Please listen to his actually now fairly old episode of BBC is the life scientific. But he's he's just absolutely amazing. He's done so much work to find people alternatives to alcohol and to find ways of like really just not undoing but being able to prevent some of the damage that can come from extended alcohol use. And he's also great fun. Also a lovely shout out for left handed giant. Thank you very much. I've also got a Google what a Radler is.

Yeah. I was going to ask you I was hoping you knew no, I sort of feel like a kind of beer as it's like an IPA. Doesn't taste like beer. Yeah,

that is intriguing to me going into my Google Home as we speak. Now that's come back with Chandi. That's absolutely no help at all. What the hell is a rattler? Oh, here we go. A rattler was originally two parts beer, usually a lager or another lighter type mix with one part lemonade or a lemon lime soda. Course curious brewers eventually began experimenting with other juices and sodas, and in the case of old Yale brewing.com from whence this information, fruity teas, which sounds really nice. Okay, so

we can add that to add that to the very long list of things we need to experiment with.

perfect lover list that will be very amazing, which also means we're just going to have to Get we've got a future guest who's an expert in all things beer, and that Helen might be the time when we get you tasting some it's going

to have to happen I'm resigned as it were. But it's lovely to see you know, small brewers doing so much to actually experiment and take risks and take chances. I mean, we obviously heard about a week ago two weeks ago from the the gang at mash but also there's so many out there who are doing so much interesting stuff. We also had a couple of messages on Twitter one from Jordan King at Jordan MB King who says current soft drink obsession is Su so that stands for a stand up stand out in case you're wondering the orange and Mandarin is just the sweetest most refreshing drink and account I think I've ever drank. I can't get enough one for pop culture to investigate. And actually another a friend of mine at Dapper Dan responded going I had these at the craft services on a film set he was on and I can concur. They're the best the apple and elderflower one is my personal favourite so two different flavours to try. Hurrah.

Feel my credit card twitching Helen, what is it going to be had?

And then in response to last week's discussion about BrewDog at Kieran Lee 1970 said I was at the BrewDog pre open night in Perth, drinking all their beer and food for free really sticking it to the man. I'm not sure that's exactly what we suggested. But thank you, I guess for that. Well, I

think that's all we've got time for this week, I can see the sun is set the clouds are drawing in, it's time to go home and find something to watch on the television before sliding into bed. If you've got a favourite drink you'd like to share with us on any other non booze related gossip, then you can email us pop culture drinks podcast@gmail.com. And you can see what and where we've been drinking lately on Instagram at pop culture drinks podcast. And don't forget pop culture is on bookshop.org You can read our books, our guests books, and other books we like while helping to support the show. Just go to bookshop.org and search for pop culture soft drinks podcast.

And that's it from us this week. So thank you so much for joining us. Do let us know if you have any suggestions or comments about the show. And yeah, keep on drinking. I'll see you next time.

Keep on drinking. Is that going to be your slogan?

I mean, that's all I got. I'll be honest, it's I was up very late last night. I didn't get to bed until this morning cat what I know it's at least 10 hours past my normal bedtime drinking hours.

That basically means you've been up for about three days. Okay, fine. This week our slogan will be keep on drinking, keep on drinking.

Just like was strictly basically