From Passion to Purpose: A Conversation with Healing in the Margins

9:30PM Jan 21, 2024

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Hello and welcome to the thoughtful counselor, a podcast dedicated to bringing you innovative and evidence based counseling and mental health content designed to enhance your life. Whether you're a clinician, supervisor, educator, or a person wanting to learn more about the counseling process, we are here to demystify mental health through conversations with a wide range of counseling professional powerhouses. In each episode, you'll learn about current issues in the field, new science, and real life lessons learned from the therapy room. Thank you for joining us on our journey through the wide world of counseling. There's a lot to explore here. So sit back, take a deep breath. And let's get started.

Hello, this is Jessica Taylor and this is another episode of the thoughtful counselor. Today I'm talking with Ashley Hampton, co founder and director of Hampton House counseling. Nashville's first queer people of color group practice and healing in the margins, a nonprofit organization driving systemic transformation and promoting recovery through the provision of mental health resources and programs tailored for LGBTQIA plus and bipoc communities. Ashley Hampton, is the executive director of healing in the margins, the Clinical Director of Hampton House counseling, a certified clinical supervisor, and an adjunct professor at Vanderbilt University. She is committed to creating space and serving individualized individuals in marginalized communities. Welcome today, Ashley,

no, thank you, thank you for having me.

I'm really excited for us to have a conversation about something that I stumbled upon through mutual colleagues have some really cool work that you're doing. And I would love for us to kind of have a conversation of how it began, what got you to this process of not just even being a counselor to a community want to serve, but also building the sense of advocacy and community and that I was lucky enough to attend an event that you had just earlier this month, and just felt really moved to see advocacy and action. I think in counseling, we talked about advocacy a lot. And many of us try to do it in very micro ways that we feel we can. And I think that you will have a really good model of how it's working in a macro place. And so thank you for giving us your time today.

Yeah, my pleasure. My pleasure. Let's

get started first sort of the personal professional journey that even led you to co founding Hampton House counseling and then healing in the margins.

Yeah, I, I was just the therapists, you know, just the verifiers, right? Just the person committing to holding space for others, for many, many years here in Nashville, and then during COVID. You know, I was virtual doing all telehealth. And I was just getting so many calls. Because there are so few openly queer clinicians of color in Nashville. I was just bombarded during COVID seeing so many people a week. And that kind of started me on the journey of how do we create more access to care while also knowing that it's burning me out? And and you know, it's not sustainable. And so that was the journey of how we began him that house and that was really reaching out to other people. And like, you know, should I have an intern? Should I do this? Should I do that? And lots of people's guidance led us to this idea of what if we created a space and so myself, like, you know, went home and begged my wife to do it with me because she has so many skills that I do not have administration, programming, the spreadsheet, somebody we know that man, all the things that I don't do. And so if we were going to grow and be off be bigger than just me, I definitely needed that support. And luckily, she said, Yes. And so that was how Hampton House started. And, you know, Hampton House is only two years old, two and a half years old. We're pretty new. You know, I had been practicing as a clinician for about seven years and private practice and agency together simultaneously. And so 2021 was when Hampton House launched and so that was the beginning for us in our in our journey of the communities that

really resonate with that but it already the work we do can be very heavy and very exhausting, and obviously very fulfilling, but I feel like the pandemic really shifted things where we we didn't get that time off. We didn't just stop living like if anything, we were supporting people even more. I'm curious though, because for many of us who get burned out We pull away from the work, then we tried to go more restorative. And somehow you leaned more into the work and expanded it. Like, how did that even kind of unfold? You

know it, it's so interesting because one of my clinicians at that house, one of our teammates, she, in a Christmas card, she was like you say all the time that you're burnt out, and you're done. But like, I see this as just the beginning. And I think, for me what you're talking about in the beginning, but in the intro, the difference between micro and macro support, I am able to advocate, because I know that I have this much time left. And so how do we create sustainability for the next brown queer clinician like me, because you know, a 10 year career span as a good clinician is a pretty short for the amount of education and money that you invest in. And so in a lot of ways, having my eye on other people having my eye on the sustainability of mental health practices for the community, is actually what is like giving to me today. In a in a way that feels very different than holding space with clients one on one.

Well, and I think it could be easy to in a town like Nashville, where there's, you know, an assumption of so many resources, and there's so many different private practices, finding a space to be able to do that. Could you kind of walk me through how it evolved from Hampton House counseling, where I assume you have more like clinicians to now let's go to a nonprofit, and then all the programming that you have through this?

Yeah. So, you know, when when we started Hampton House, we started getting people who apply to identify as either bipoc or queer. And we loved that. And so in that I was like, Oh, well, there are tons of practices in Nashville. There's tons of schools that train clinicians in Nashville, but I don't know of any practice that saying, we're a black queer practice. We're a brown queer practice, we're, we're bipoc Queer practice, but I didn't know any group practice who was saying that. And so that was the space that we decided to create. And so yes, we have brought clinicians on and through the bringing on of brown, black and queer clinicians, it was made even more evident the entire distance disparities between the populations that, that that that were a part of right, like, I noticed that my clinicians and Hampton House had different skills, trainings and opportunities than clinicians all across Nashville. And a lot of that is, in my opinion, because of oppression because of systemic injustice and racism. And so, for me, what what really kind of set set that spark was, me and my wife, were having a baby, we were planning for our baby. And we were, I was giving away clients, and I was doing a lot of EMDR work, a lot of trauma work, because I learned at a very white practice, and they pushed EMDR trauma training, they pushed it. So I did a lot to be able to get that training and to be able to afford that training. So that again, I had exposure, right? And I had people telling me, this is what you need to do to be a better clinician, and to be able to support support people better. And so when I was giving clients to different therapists at Hampton House, we realized that none of our brown or black clinician had any advanced traumas. Interesting, so none of them. And so here we are, like, Oh, we're this space. We're one of the first, you know, queer black faces. And then you realize that, what does it matter? What does it matter to be an inclusive space or an affirming space? If you're not amplifying and empowering the people in those spaces, it it struck me to my core, it hit me in my gut. And I was like, we have to do more. No one should have to choose between the level of care they deserve and need from a clinician that they feel seen known and understood by. And that was really the journey to healing in the margins. It was me really reflecting on how even when we think we're doing good, there's more than can always be done. And there should be especially for historically oppressed communities. So then I went back to my wife and I begged her to fix our nonprofit with me. And that was a journey of just like, what do we do should we do this and, and that was really when we decided to create healing in the margin, to with the sole mission really changing the system of mental health, for brown, black and queer folks, from clinicians, clients, and then In the community at large, and so that is the mission. And that is why the mission and kind of like, where it even came from it is it's a direct correlation with our lived experience with Hampton House. Wow.

And it reminds me sort of what even made me become a professor, this idea of like the need being so high that as a clinician, I couldn't just handle it one on one. But if I felt like I was able to kind of like, lift up other people, people who may not have mentorship or community than that helped expand, it seems like you saw that same thing that I've got a space now how can we sort of lift up and bolster the goodness that we have to expand to the community? Yeah,

representation. We don't know what what we're capable of? Or what we have access to if it's never presented to us? And so I think, yeah, absolutely. If we're in a position where we were we have that in you have that capacity or desire to share? Absolutely,

yes. So could you tell us a little bit about healing in the margins, you've kind of acknowledged the mission, what does that look like about this

healing in the margins is something that we're so very passionate about, I love the work that we're doing. I see, I see the ways in which is going to really impact our city. So really, what we're doing is addressing the full kind of psychotherapy, right? You have community and need brown, black and queer folks that want to access therapy, and they can't afford it most of the time, or, or they don't know who would be the best fit for them, or they've had a therapist that they loved, but can no longer take sliding scale rates. And so healing in the margins we come in, they are right there and that therapy. So one of the things that we do that we're we're caught constantly, really trying to get funding for we just started it in June of this 2023. Is that therapy fine. And what that looks like is, we know because we're clinicians that one session, three sessions, four sections, six sessions, to me is not enough, it's not enough to truly help the person. So in healing in the margins, we provide every applicant that we're able to fund 12 sessions, up to like $120 per session, for therapists of their choosing. So any clinician who's seeing folks in Nashville, who has a brown, black or queer client that can no longer afford their therapy, or can access them at all can apply to the therapy fund. And if we have the funding, then we can grant that person 12 sessions, which could be six months of by winning, it could be a year, it really depends on that person's need. But knowing that, that we have to do right by people, and I know that 346 is just not enough. So that's that's one of the huge things that we do. And we're also in 2024 really going to pour into our groups. And so that looks like us, going into different spaces that already exist and providing the therapeutic groups. Specifically this year, we're really wanting to spend time with our bipoc adolescents. That's really a huge focus, we're turning 24. And of course, our LGBTQIA plus folks has the funding. So we're finding the therapy fund, and then doing groups out in the community, that's really the client portion. So it's kind of simple, right? It's like, okay, let's help you get really good quality therapy for any clinician that you choose. But then how are we supporting the clinicians doing that work, right? If we know that brown and black clinicians and queer clinicians have less accidents to brainspotting EMDR ifs, not

very expensive, time consuming, training expensive.

So let's let's get funding for them. Let's send clinicians to brain spotting. And let's do even better and send brown and black clinicians to brain spotting via brown and black facilitator. So that we can start learning from our peers on how to support our peers. So that's, that's the main part of clinicians in the margins, we're sending into advanced trauma trainings, we're also holding monthly workshops. And this year, we're kind of tweaking it to make it a little bit more in depth, like a cohort model, and what does it look like? And one of the things you might be interested in is we're wanting to do a bipod. clinician in training cohort. Oh, so folks getting their masters to become clinicians. Let's let's have a group just for y'all to process what it's like to be in a brown and black body learning this, this craft. Yeah. And so that's really what we do with the client, the clinician, and then the third component which is really, really fun and exciting is different organizations, different resource groups within companies. different nonprofits can bring bring us out, and we'll do a training for them, we'll do a training for their, their staff who identified or we'll just do a general training. So we're really wanting to get out into the community and teach competency, teach safety, so that those same people who then go to therapy, get the support, and we can support the supporters and we're really creating systemic change. So that is the three, our three our three programs that we're focusing,

so much sticks out to me, from what you said, it's so exciting, I can already feel this buzz. One thing that sticks out is the support for maybe counselors and training or students because that's something I've been a professor at two universities now that I constantly hear from students of I, I understand this training model, obviously, based in very Eurocentric ways, where's the support, some programs are better than others of you know, access and decolonizing counseling, having that space, though, where they can also see others like them, and how fruitful that would be in early development. Incredible. But also, like you're saying this micro to macro, and how it's sort of this fluid, increasing access, increasing understanding, increasing competence, then too, it feels like very energizing work. But I also know that you're doing this in Tennessee, and in Tennessee, you're also in this in kind of get us into addressing the disparities, and really the populations that we're focusing on how to do that in a state that I mean, is quite literally on fire when it comes to rights for the populations you're trying to serve. Could you speak a little bit about that about need and how this work that you just covered, is really helping to target these disparities?

Yeah, you know, I think I get asked a lot of like, well, what about, you know, your state support? Or what about government support or different types of support? And I feel like, I have taken a very individualistic, like, I don't expect the support of our state. I just don't, that's not even a thought. I'm not like, how can I get the Senate state to support me, I'd that's not even a thing. Because I truly don't believe that our state cares about brown, black and queer people. I think that maybe a small few do and those are people that I'm very happy to build connection and relationship with. But I am not expecting our state to care about this issue. Because if they did, we wouldn't even have the problem. There would be no need for healing in the margins, if folks in the margins had the basic support dignities rights that they needed. So I do it the same way I've done it, everything thus far is just really knowing who our community is. And let's grow in that was build a relationship with people who actually get it and care. I don't have time to pour into the system that I know. They're not there yet. But I interesting you are. Yeah. So I would much rather talk with you about how to fix this than people who don't get it. That

makes sense. It's almost like creating a new system, not just disrupting those. And obviously, we have like, people in our field who are disrupting the systems that already exist, but this sense of like kind of going the backdoor way of creating a new system. For people who might be listening who don't understand why we want to focus on queer people of color. Could you give a little insight about what you noticed that even had you want to be able to provide support for these communities?

Yeah, well, first, I am a queer person of color. So, you know, my lived experience has told me that that our community we're high vulnerable community, we have higher rates of anxiety, depression, I mean, suicidality is huge. Right. And so I think that that is a big part of it. But I also think, being in a state that is that you just said, is actively passing legislation and things like that, to to further hurt and harm our communities. There's two options, really, it's the flee the state, or to make the state better to create these systems that that are going to keep you and your communities safe. And that's really what I see in clinicians and fellow friends and colleagues is it's like, do we stay or do we go? I mean, I think that when you live in a state where you don't feel safe to get the medical care you deserve, can you imagine the the mental health implications that house other person? And so, I think that that our community needs that support so much, because we've never had it and we've had things literally attacking our survival.

Have you noticed any strategies that have really seemed to help because there's this idea of multicultural competence and it's just this umbrella where it sounds like you all are really finding a way to do specialized His care really addressing directly? What are those needs? You talked about also building like a safe space, what has worked for people who want to start cultivating that or activating that in their own communities?

Well, that's a great question. And I think, for me, right, there is a level of collaboration and humility, that I don't know that many people actually possess. So, or, or, or have given themselves permission to deconstruct and kind of create for themselves. No one wants to hurt people, right. And so in the avoidance of trying to cause harm, we don't come face to face with the harm that we've caused. And I think that's the hugest, that's the biggest problem that we have, right? I know that I cause harm. I know that I've done it with my clients. I know that I've done it with. I mean, I know that it's not something I don't say that out of pride, I say that out of let's acknowledge that we're human, and humans hurt other humans. And the only way to truly change that and create safety is to ask them. And so we start with asking, I asked every clinician, we have 12 clinicians at Hampton House right now. And I ask them every Thursday at supervision, what the? How can I support you? How's that landing? If something doesn't feel right, I go back and I say, How do you feel about that? Did I handle that poorly. We have to create dialogue to truly hear when we've been wrong. And I think that because of because of colonization, we believe in perfectionism. And we believe that, that it we're helpers that we don't want to hurt people, it's very hard to acknowledge when we I love the acknowledgement of hurt. Because I know that I experienced it as a human. And I know that I hurt people every day as a human. And so to me, safety is acknowledgement. And it is honesty. And it is the fact that we have to sit in them. Right. I had to sit at Hampton House and say, okay, so we think we're doing something great by having a drop in Hindi speaking therapist. Cool. That's awesome. Where do your clients go for medication? Where do they go when they need more support? Have you ever tried to find a good drop in Hindi speaking psychiatrists in Nashville, Tennessee, good luck. Exactly. So it's not an it again, I have to look at that. I have to say, Gosh, this is one of our supervisees. And I now have to hold space for her, because we're trying to help her provide care for our community when there isn't the infrastructure to truly support that client. Wow, that's the work I do at my job every day. Is it's this real, like awakening to? Every good thing is still not good enough. Because we live in this system. I don't know if that answers your

question. Yes. And then part of me is like, Wait, how do you have the energy for that, actually, because there's a certain point where it's like, okay, we're powerless to this, we have this. There's something about your organization and the people that you collaborate with? That it's like, Okay, now, how do we address that? Well, I think a lot of us just Historically, it's been like, okay, that is what it is, we try to live around it, you all are doing something beautiful, like no, and now we're addressing it. Now we're taking that effort, we're really trying to find these connections to actually meet the need versus telling our clients or clinicians just deal with the system that we're kind of given.

Ya know, I don't know where the energy from are

like that. Because we have passion, but there's something that you have that it's like, no, no, to action,

I truly believe this is what I'm supposed to be doing. I think that I don't want to be a part of a system that isn't doing good, that isn't trying to be better, and it wasn't. And I hated my job. I applied to be a flight attendant, you know what I'm saying? I really did, I got denied, thank you southwest. But, you know, I am energized by the fact that if I must do it, I must do it the best that I can. And, and I I don't know that I set out to do this either. If you notice, everything that I've done has been a reaction to a lived experience, you know, Hampton House was because of COVID. And influx healing in the margin was because I saw this need and, and I have a partner that my wife who, who can do so much of this stuff that it's like, why wouldn't we try? Yeah, you know, it's better to me, it's better than seeing 30 clients a week hating my life, you know, range by the horse. They deserve a clinician who hasn't seen 30 clients a week. I know they do. So how do we fix that? And that's really what I'm interested in. I'm interested in creating sustainability for for people beyond me, because I already know where I'm at with that. energizing right, thinking about thinking about broad change is a lot less draining than sitting with a client and really looking at the minutiae of their lived trauma, pain and experience, because we know that work is fun. It's beautiful. It's rich, and I love it. And it's a total different than what we're doing and healing in the margins.

Wow. And something that also I think is interesting about it. There's this thing about vicarious trauma, vicarious pain. I liked that also, what you all do brings out this joy, the activation of the community at your event, there was so much joy, there was so much emotion, but there was so much vicarious joy. It was beautiful it is. And it's I think, in so much of what we do as counseling, it's always like, what's not working what is harmful with. And it's the spirit. And I saw that too, in your social media coverage, too. There's a spirit though of like joy within it, too. It's not just here's all this terrible things that we're dealing with. And so that I think really sticks out that when we feel this overwhelm this burnout, transforming it into some sort of usefulness, probably the way that you have coped with it. And now there's so much joy also built into the really intense work.

Absolutely. And now, instead of feeling so much anger, that I can barely get up, I get to think about how can I make him feel better? What can we do? How can we? How can we create more access? How can I support my clinician better? How can they have a voice in the work that they do, even though they're under this umbrella? How do we create autonomy and flexibility? Like, I, I'm, I'm, I am energized? And I think it's because I know what it feels like to do this work and to do it alone. And it is so hard? And I don't think it had to be I just don't think there was anyone else providing any other

hands a different kind of framework or anything.

Yeah, you know, I think about I'm an adjunct to right. And one of the things I noticed just in in the class that I taught that my first pass, the bodies of culture represented in that class looked completely different than my experience, you know, 13 years ago, 12 years ago, so I feel like evolution is happening, right. But we're able to see it a little bit better when when we're removed, if that makes any sense. Yeah, it's

almost like letting the fog kind of pass to get that clarity. Now, obviously, with wisdom and you've spoken so much that your lived experience really also informs where your passions are, where your focus lie.

100% I only do things because I feel like I have.

Like that's also probably what gets that energy through I

truly believe. I used to always think I was an underachiever. And now I don't, I don't actually think that that's true, but I think I do what I think I must. But I don't think much. Does that make sense? It's like, what we're doing really isn't that hard. It's supporting people, which is what I've been doing all along, right. But now, I get to ask people to support me to support others. Does that make sense? It

makes sense. But I think it's important that new clinicians are gonna get to hear this because I think to brand new clinic, trying to start a nonprofit trying to address this trend, even get the training, that's so overwhelming, but because you've figured out the system through your wisdom and experience, I think that's what increases that accessibility, you're helping to give a framework that would have been nice if you would have been able to have access to it versus figuring it out the hard way.

1,000,000,000% 1 million, like it's like, yes, and like, knowing that like the entire process, like I would love. I mean, I have so many dreams, certainly in the margins, but like, just the way that we're we get continuing education and our licensure process and all of these things. I think that I don't believe that any of these processes were really created with the idea of brown, black and queer people in mind. It is so hard to get licensed. It's up it's so

difficult, particularly in Tennessee, but most other states, particularly in

Tennessee, and sometimes I sit back and I wonder what does it even matter? I don't know if that's good, or bad. But it is my true licensure

boards probably would disagree, but on the practitioner to say

that I wouldn't tell you some of my clients probably don't even know what my degree is. They do not care. Yep. And when we're talking about human relationships, and then you have a governing bullet. I am I did it because I have to do it or I thought I had to do it. And now I have a practice where I do have to do it. So I'm gonna do it. And I don't know I don't know what that's gonna look like. And my gut tells me that so many things are going to change as they should. The more we're getting voices of people like you and I out there having these types of conversations. Yeah, as

well. And having the support, too, we talked so much about how representation matters, you mentioned that earlier, being able to actually have this like army of people that can meet the needs of these diverse populations. I did this study about cultural resiliency. And that was like, one of the overarching themes from the participants who had gone through therapy was not having to explain your lived experience, having someone who got it in so many ways that half your therapy time wasn't spent in the education piece versus actual healing in the work. That's what killed them, and help seeking that's what kept them being able to bolster their natural resilience and overcome it, and they felt empowered by it. But part of that was that representation that you're going to understand my story, and I am going to be safe with you, you're not going to be harmful to me.

Right. And I think what's so interesting about that is, it's the perception of understood to, right, it's the perception that, because you look like me, you understand. And in sometimes we can talk about, well, you know, our experiences still look very different, right? Like, I as a, as a preteen, I started getting calls when I first graduated, I picked you because you're a black woman, I was like, you see me as black? Yeah, as a mixed person that was just like, oh, my gosh, yes. And as a mixed person, my lived experience probably looks very different from you as a black woman, you know, and so, I but I think that, again, there that just shows how much we need to be seen by the people that are supporting us, it doesn't really matter. It's, it's your closer than your closest to,

and you understand the culture, you understand the lingo, I don't necessarily have to break it all down for you. And it's not just racial. I mean, I have that with military families that they if they grew up with a military family, I get some of that, but they don't have to explain away. And so I think that's where it's so important to provide support to these clinicians so that we they can go meet these needs.

Absolutely. And I think that these clinicians, you know, the training that majority of us have gotten is subpar. You know, it's it's, unless you're at an amazing university home, that probably cost significantly more, you are being taught and cultural cultural competency by by white folk, which is garbage in my humble opinion. As someone who was taught by a white woman how to counsel diverse populations, she taught me nothing. And that's 1000s of dollars that I paid for that. Right, like, that's a problem. There are, there are enough brass, there are enough bodies of culture out here now, especially in Nashville, who could be teaching that course. And the problem is, is the universities aren't seeking. And they're not seeking it yet, because they don't they haven't heard enough of it. Yeah, right. But I think for me, I'm energized by that I'm so excited to confront these issues. Because why aren't we it is 2024. Almost. Are you kidding me? What are we talking about? You know, like, like, seriously, I'm like, Wait, so I'm super excited to have the I'm, I'm ready for it. Like, I think it's so important that we start to why has this been status quo forever? There's no reason for it any?

Yeah, no. And you bring up a really interesting point, when we talk about that, like counseling, diverse populations class, that class can be very controversial in the way I know, a lot of my black brown colleagues will not teach that class because of that pushback, you're challenging so many deeply embedded notions, that then it becomes unsafe for so many of the faculty, because it's just like those teaching evaluations, how the students come at it. It's a class that requires a lot of just bravery and a lot of just like, really tough conversations. And so being able to hear that someone like you feels like yes, that's part of the calling, that's part of it, then to, to sort of help, the experience I had where I left at the end of it. And I didn't feel any more prepared than if anything, it probably felt more challenging to try to think about practicing now and putting that into practice.

For sure. And like, that's so sad. Because you already knew how to talk to your people. And then you go to school and you unlearn how to talk to your people. And you're taught this is how you talk to your people. And then you started doing the work and you're like, wait a second, this isn't. This is that is fostering our burnout that is greeting us leaving the field? Yeah. Which just leaves the same old people doing the work. And that's why I'm just I'm excited. That's why when, when I had the opportunity to teach this past semester, I was like, well, it is in alignment with the season of life that I'm in and so I sat with it. I was like, Well, I think I think this is a part of it. How can you Say that you want to teach this and you want to do this. But when opportunities aren't given you don't take that to me. That's my belief. And so I think it's so important. I think it starts in school. I mean, I, I could go on.

And I love it. It's very inspiring. How do you then actually get community involved in it? Because there's one thing that you can sell a client on it, you can sell a student, an intern, you guys have also found a way to have community support? Was there any strategy that seemed to work? Or if anyone ever wants to do something like that? What did you and Beth and your other collaborators find was useful in getting that community engagement?

So what's really interesting is, I feel like we don't have very much community engagement. Oh, really like, like, I think we have, we're, we this is our first calendar year of programming, our second year having the 501 C 30, if that makes any sense. And we have had what I consider significant, like impact. But in the grand scene of sustainability, we need like three to four times more support than what we have now, in order to grow and in order to sustain it. And so what I have learned, which is hilarious that I didn't think to know this already, is that that systemic oppression exist across any field, counseling, mental health, nonprofits, and the barriers, exactly the same in mental health as a nonprofit. What I have seen, you know, is nonprofits, they want to see success, before the people will really support you. They want to see three years minimum success, before you can really get funding, that actually makes an impact. They want to see that you got community support, and that you've got programs that are that are producing, they want to see that you're diverse, they love black led organizations, but they also want you to be a wealthy one. So it's very, very, very interesting

about your barriers, that you have to have this funding source to prove to the other sustainable funding sources that this is an investment, this is a return on their investment.

And if I had that I wouldn't have started. I would have just done it. I'm so so so what has been really beautiful, that's the negative. The positive is that I have been in Nashville my entire life. And I have had a private practice or Hampton House for 10 plus years. So I know a lot of therapists in the community, I'm looking to grow that network, by the way, so I'm happy we're having this conversation. But the beautiful thing is, is I've have enough colleagues and friends who know me who know what I believe in, and who believe in what we're trying to do, who have come alongside us, and supported us. And that is what we need. We need clinicians who see healing in the margins. And they say, Yes, I want to support you know, we had a fundraiser, the mental health awareness month at the end of last year, May, June, the beginning of June. And the call to action and we're going to do it again in the quality action will be the same it's can every single therapist just donate whatever they make in one session per month. Just one. So if you charge $30, because you're an intern, can you donate $30 If you charge 100 or 120, so on and so forth. And through that we got $24,000 in reoccurring donations for our first year, which

is huge. That's amazing.

That didn't come from anyone else, though, other than clinicians that I knew. It's so good to think about the labor of that. You have to think about the labor that comes in with with having a reputation amongst your peers, but that many people will donate and support. That's what's so hard about starting something off. It was easier starting a private practice if I'm being honest, because the referrals came from the word. Like I got to do the work with a client they referred and so that's what we need healing in the margin we need I think, I don't think it's going to come from the state of Tennessee. I'll be shocked. If it does and I'll take it I was worried. I was wrong.

Goes back to humility. Yes, we learn we grow

I will be the most humble you will and I will I will I will proclaim it from the mountaintops. I don't think they'll do it. It's gonna come for them and I don't think where I think and where I think it should come from his eyes. From clinician I donate to healing in the margins every month. I donate campin house donates the healing in the margins every month. won't ask others what we won't do ourselves. But if every therapist or if of every therapist imagine So donated just one session a month. Do you a the amount of therapy that provides people that that is life changing, and it's really not that much of a sacrifice. If you're a private practice clinician, it's it's, it's it's a draw up, but it changes someone's life. And that's what I'm excited about. Because it's really, really easy. Like if I just had to find out enough people, the right people. And I truly think that we can really create change for so many folks. That's energizing, because it's not that hard.

Yeah. How have you? Yes, that makes perfect sense. If you haven't actually had the community support that maybe you had hoped? Is there something that you all do to kind of help keep you eyes on the prize in the mission versus feeling defeated? Or like, this is so much work? This is too much?

Well, we luckily, because of those, those, those community, I don't want to say we didn't have as much community support, what I mean is, we didn't have support from folks we didn't know very well, you know, and some people have come along the way, which is really great. But I think, to do the work, regardless, whether someone pays for it or not, I'm doing it, we're doing it, does that make sense? We're gonna have the workshops, because it's the right thing to do. And we're gonna send therapists to trainings if we can, because they deserve it, that type of thing. And so the program is going to happen regardless, because we're in so many ways. We're already doing it, but I just want to be able to do it more, I just want to be able to do it for other people. Right. And that is what I mean. And so I we have had support from the community. As far as the mental health community, I think the greater community is where we're really wanting to expand and, and that looks like collaborating with different organizations in the community, which we're gonna get to do in 2024. So I'm super excited about that.

And it seems like a big core of this mission is education. So is that where you see sort of being able not to only expose counselors and trading to quality education that enhances sort of just the basic CACREP requirements for counseling programs, but also community education, or educating potential clients about sort of what this can look like? Yeah,

I think so. I think, I think so I think we're gonna really get creative on how we can be a part of educating clinicians. No, we have we all have to do continuing it and, and how maybe that's down. You know, I don't know, that's a process. But I think that their their education is so important, because I think that the more people that know about what we're doing, the more therapists that know, the more clients that know, the more healing is, is going to happen. And that's really why we're doing this. And so, yeah, education is a big part of

it. And I think what you said earlier, too, about tackling that sense of perfectionism to avoid counting specific, like, what our role is supposed to look like, how we're supposed to show up in a counseling room, versus that humility versus the learning the growing, I think you also give room then not for error, because we don't want to harm clients. But you're giving room to these clinicians to really explore what some of that is, and being able to move through it to not further harm our clients.

Well, yeah, and I think, to do no harm, what does that mean? Really? Yeah, because your harm isn't mine. And my harm is a yours. And if we're not asking our clients, which I've learned, by doing this, most clinicians aren't checking in with their clients on harm, cause most clinicians aren't opening a door and extending an invitation of, hey, on day one, let me tell you, this is who I am. This is what I do. I don't want to hurt you. But I might. I may show up. And I might say something that that you that you hear is one way that I meant another, please feel safe enough to let me know. Because if you don't let me know, I will just think that I didn't. Yeah. Now, to let someone know that they've harmed you. That takes courage. That takes insight, awareness, safety. And, and so I extend the invitation to every new client that I meet, and every therapy that happens in house does as well, because it's a part of my mission. If we're not inviting folks to share with us, when we've harmed them, we want to have no way to acknowledge it and to make repair. And I think that's so important. I think that you know, we get call after call people who have had therapy elsewhere, and they're coming here because they didn't feel We'll save. And then I always ask because I'm nosy like to tell your therapist. Oh, no, we did it. We just stopped going, we just

stopped going we couldn't cancel their session afford it anymore. We took a break from counseling, you're

taking a break. And and I think that so many clinicians are afraid to pass I at Hampton House, we will ask you will ask your clients why they don't want to come back. I don't care that it makes you feel uncomfortable. I do care. But imagine how uncomfortable it makes them. We have to be okay being a little bit discomfort of this. Uncomfortable. Yeah, we have to be okay being a little bit uncomfortable is it means creating safety for other people, especially when we're the clinician,

oh, you're giving me the tingles. Because I feel like this is something that new clinicians really have to explore this idea that I got into this field because I want to help people. But then there becomes this like prestige in our role. And then we were the expert in the room. Even if you say your person centered a client centered and you're not the expert, you still have this power in the room. And I think that's where it's hard sometimes to put out that invitation like you said, that humble invitation. If I make a misstep, please correct me, please use, you know, timeliness, use immediacy, so I can repair it. But also, I have to create the space for them to feel safe, because I can give them the invitation but give all these other subtle clues that No, I'm not actually open to growing.

And, yes, and I've done this long enough to see it. And I know that that's what people do. And for me and for my supervisees. And for everyone at hands in house like that is something that I really want us to normalize. I want us to normalize feedback, good, bad or indifferent? Because how we can't grow if we don't know. And I say

it's a relationship, if it's just one sided, that I'm telling you my thoughts, my feedback, how is this actually like an alliance?

Right, right. And if it's our clients can practice naming their hurt with their therapist, how are they ever supposed to do it in the real world? Yes, and we can't handle it. And it's not about you, right? It's not about the clinician. But I see so much of our clinician, I see so much of our trauma, our defenses do show up in the room, and we have to name it like we can't, it's not about the clinician. So we avoid what the clinician does.

Were sort of the vessel that actually like select the line of questioning what to focus on, we have so much power in the room.

And I think that with great power comes this, we have to be able to grow and acknowledge harm. We have to you know, you you could show up late for a session and that could harm some Yeah, really. And truly,

you could reschedule a session, and that could come off harmful to a client. We

could say something in a way and that client feels judgment, whether or not we are judging the client to have come back to me that Hey, Ashley, I need to talk to you. Of course, my heart drops my stomach thinks I'm just I feel my heart racing, I feel that defend pop into my body. And I'm just like, Okay, tell me what's going on. And then they tell me what when you said this, it made me feel I noticed that my my own system is firing. The fight or flight is real. But my practice has just been first off. Thank you for telling me. And I'm sorry. That's it. Wow. Thank you. And I'm sorry. We talked through that, say

acknowledgement and the repair right there. Because I

can't I'd never told the therapist how they made me feel I just stopped going. Yeah,

have at least resistance.

So when we create that type of safety, if we've never heard from a client, that we've never had to repair with a client, I don't think we're doing something right. That's my honest opinion. And that's

tough. I think that's really tough on our egos, we want to be the best we can and that makes sense. We want to be professionals. But we forget that human work and we forget that relational work.

Yeah. And I think one of the things that I hold dear at Hampton House is that we're humans first. Yeah, well, it bad and indifferent where we are, it's

the richness of it. And I think your event really highlighted that to see the people one, the volunteers, the people who are so passionate about the work and just seeing how they were transformed and doing this work. Being able to see the camaraderie it was something that was really beautiful because I think a lot of my experiences with volunteer work or advocacy didn't have that energy it was a lot of like, this is what we have to do okay, let's check a box or like okay, this wears on me after this and this, their wishes so much like Joy and richness and spirits is something that has been cultivated. Why do

you think it's because it's a story that resonates with everyone who's involved?

It might be because it's personal. I think part of it is what you had earlier about the relationship. And whether it's you and Beth did this or whoever has cultivated the relationship piece that you said, like I kind of called on my people to help support it. Something was mutual about it, that these people were happy to give up their time happy to give up their money wanting to do the cause. It was just something that stuck out to me, actually, because I don't see it that commonly. And I've been I've been involved in different initiatives, it was just this, this energy that shows like, people are not only rooting for the mission, they're rooting for you and each other and all of this. And it was just something that really made me emotional, just watching it out.

I cried the entire night. And the next day, and yeah, I think when I it's, it's a bittersweet feeling. Because I feel the love and support of my peers. Yeah. And it feels like I only feel it now that I'm doing it everything that I've always done, but on a bigger scale. Interesting. So it's like, I'm crying out of acknowledgement of my humanity. And what I've been through and what I've done, which what I'm doing now is actually way easier than what I did six years ago. Yeah. Does that make it and so it's this really interesting. I hold, thank you. And it also is just like, you, you experienced this now you see this now. And that feels, both humbling. And also, just like God, I had to start a whole nine, I had to start a group practice and a nonprofit, just to

Yeah, that it's like the visibility of the work or the awareness to my colleagues that this work needs to be done.

Yeah, it's an interesting kind of space that we're in. Yeah.

So with that, if you are speaking to counselors who do want to get more into the advocacy piece, the one on one, they feel like they're doing what they can they want to expand it. If they don't all have a bath, who can help with their programmatic stuff? Is there anything that you would recommend just initially, for people to start figuring out how to expand their advocacy efforts?

Yeah, so you know, I'm a big believer in find people who are already doing what you want to do, and connect with them. And so like, my hope, for 2024 with healing in the margins is that I can partner with other clinicians who want to be involved, whether they want to host a group, run a group, whether they want to provide some different types of programming, like, my hope is that we can really connect with other clinicians. And so I would imagine that there are different things going on in different cities or different states, I will look at that. I think a lot of people, you know, I hear a lot of like, well, I want to get funding for my quiet. So I'm thinking about starting a nonprofit. And I'm just like, that's really good to want to get funding for clients. And in the short experience that I've had, I'm not seeing a lot of people giving money for therapy, it's, again, it's that What are you doing for they want more they want it is it's this? What are you doing for the community at large? To Betty like vouch right. And also, so I think it's a super challenging, so like, folks who want to give back, like, I would work for places who are doing it already, and volunteering there or offering, you know, like, with healing in the margins, if there's someone who's listening that lives in Nashville, that's like, I would love to be a part. And I would love to, you know, do some of the group work or I would love like, that would be awesome. You know, I think that there are lots of ways to get involved. Because the The hard part is finding, finding the resources, not that there's scarcity, because there is, but it's like, how do we really support one another on what we're doing? Yeah, it's

like how do we make efforts? How do we bring superpowers to have impact?

Exactly, gotcha.

That makes sense. So you're asked then if someone's listening and they are interested in helping healing in the margins were there in Nashville outside of Nashville? What would be your ask then?

Well, follow us on social media because believe it or not Foundation's, look at that. Funders look at that, which is hilarious. That is interesting. About here I am there we are, we're there.

And so the handles being healing in the margin on Instagram, healing

in the margins on Instagram. Sharing our content is huge. Like, you know that getting that visit again, it's all about visibility and And then funding, donations matter, reoccurring donations, keep the lights on is what I'm learning and then in the nonprofit world, so even if it's $10 a month, that adds up 10 People do turns out, you do the math, like those kinds of things matter. And so So we're, you know, reoccurring donors are so important to an organization this small. And really, every dollar can be tracked to the mission to the work, which is actually super exciting to be a part of the founding of something that I know is going to create so much healing in Nashville. And then also, it's like connecting, you know, I love connecting with people, I love talking about this, I love collaborating with like, Okay, this is who you are, this is what you're doing. Can we join? Is there space for what you're wanting? And what we're wanting? Can we make it happen together? Because I think that there's so many people in need, there's no reason not to have. So yeah. So social media, donating, connecting, volunteering, things like that. Yeah.

So things that seem very, very tangible. It's finding who's doing the work that you're interested, who's already doing it. So we're not recreating the wheel? And then how can you bring your spirit? How can you bring your efforts your time? It seems like a lot of y'all success is this community built in pulling those talents together? 100%,

I don't like working that much. Believe it or not.

I've been to the work soft, that's what I'm trying to bring into 2024. We're working hard.

I'm like not, it's not my vibe. I do have have quite a bit of different, you know, hats that I wear. But but for me, I want people to have care. And I want caregivers to have care. And I want our community to treat our community a little bit better. And so I can't do all of that one person can't do that Hampton House can't do that. We've got amazing clinicians, and they can't do it all like we got as a community, how do we really support one another therapist, we are a part of a harmful, historically harmful? Career, vocation. We have to name it, we have to do better. And we're still harming people to this day. And so I think, I think therapists to do more, I think they should do. Yeah, you

really hit the nail on the head. I've really even become hesitant now in referring people to other clinicians, because I may think you're really fun to go to dinner with or see you at a conference. But the harm that I hear coming back and as putting like, our professional reputation on the line, this just happened to me with a client, that it's just like, wow, we still are so far from where we need to be as counselors.

Oh my gosh. And I think about like, have you tried to find a counselor in Nashville? Very expensive. The journey? Uh huh. The phone calls the cost. It's, it's I as a private practice owner, yes. can barely afford to afford our therapists? Uh huh. That's a problem. To me is your protocol does that so you see what I'm so so that is why we have to really get honest about our system. Without pride without ego, it is a flawed mental health is trash. And how can we make it better? That's, that's where I'm at. And so I think we can, but if we're not willing to accept and admit that we're a part of an effed up system, then we're never going to grow and change. So I've leaned into it.

Well, and I really appreciate your time. Because I also think there needs to be and people are doing the work. But we need to highlight more of this progression instead of individual healing, what community healing looks like what collective healing looks like, we talked about collective trauma, that other side of it then too, and so an organization like yours, I think just really shows like a model of this is how it can work. And this is the direction that we all need to be moving in.

Absolutely. And I think hurt happens by people, right? Happens in community that healing can too. And I think for our mission, it's going to take a community, it's going to take multiple communities, because the number of people who need access to mental health care, it's not getting smaller. And the really the double edged sword to healing in the margins is the more people that know about us, the more we're inundated with people who are like, please help me there's a need, please help me. There is a need from clinicians to community members to clients, where the need is much larger than what we have funding for. And so we need I need therapists to step up. I need colleges to train therapists to step up. I mean, I literally, we need so many systems to be a part of this system to create the change that their people deserve. And

thank you so much for giving us your time so that on a global platform, we are all hearing this call to action, and that if you feel at all moved by this episode or any of the passionate action He has discussed figuring out in your local community support that you can provide. If you're anywhere near Nashville or you have money that you would like to fund to this cause, please look it out. I will link website and handles. But Ashley, thank you so much for the work you're doing you and Beth, the whole organization. It's work that needs to be done and I just really appreciate this time to share it. Yes,

thank you so much.

Thank you. And this was another episode of the thoughtful counselor.

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