160. Strategic, values-aligned branding w/ India Jackson

7:49PM Jan 9, 2023

Speakers:

Brooke Monaghan

Keywords:

people

values

visibility

business

create

email

brand

talk

pause

listening

person

hear

human

aligned

happening

india

witness

dichotomy

brooke

real

Do you want to challenge the way that things are being done in your industry? Amazing, you are in exactly the right place you are my people. Those of us who see issues with the industry that we're in are in a unique position to stand out from the crowd, but also have a huge impact. But it also brings its own unique set of challenges. That's why I created the free self guided workshop that shows you the pathway to building a sustainable values aligned business spoiler, this workshop is walking you through the five growth stages, from rule follower to game changer, which it sounds like is the pathway you're already on, you can go to bit.li/no business rules, you'll be able to identify where you are in that process. And from that you will be able to then see where you should be focusing your energy to have the most impact, make the most traction now and keep yourself moving toward your vision. That's bit.li/no business rules. You're listening to transcend your dichotomy, the podcast where we break the rules that say we have to leave ourselves behind in pursuit of success. I'm Brooke Monaghan and I created the show for purpose driven business owners. Together, we'll talk about how to go for your goals have an impact, all while honoring yourself, your desires and your values.

I called this show transcend your dichotomy because I constantly found myself coming back to this conversation of we don't actually have to choose between doing things in a way that is aligned with our values and doing things in a way that is strategic. Because actually, I think that aligning your business with your values is the most strategic thing that you can do. And for folks who listen to this show, people who have integrity and care about having an impact and changing things for people, actually, those values are the things that build the foundation, I think of really good business. So I'm really excited to be talking to India Jackson today, if you don't already know India, she is actually the other co founder of pause on the play. So last week, you heard me talking to Erica core de who is one of the co founders. India is also a co founder of positive apply. She is a photographer and athlete turned branding and visibility expert. So in addition to positive the play, she also is the founder of flaunt your fire, which is both a podcast and also a branding agency. She's known for her ability to help brands and their teams align their public image with their most deeply held beliefs. So you can find her podcast wherever you listen to shows, I'm also going to put a link in the show notes. And in this episode, today, you're going to hear us really going into this concept of transcending your dichotomy from a branding perspective, and from the perspective of just having an impact in your business. Because we're going to be talking all about actually knowing who your people are, and actually being in relationships with those people, and allowing that to be the thing that drives the way that you market and brand your business and the way that you do the work that you do, rather than boiling things down to ideal customer avatars, and things that honestly are just outdated and not that useful. So I think you're gonna love this episode. Without further ado, here's India Jackson. And yeah, I am so excited and honored to get to sit down and talk with you today. I we just had Erica on the show, who I know is your co conspirator. And I was telling her as well that I've kind of admired your work from a distance for a while. And it feels really cool to be able to be in community with you and have these conversations with you.

Oh my gosh, I'm so excited to be here as well. Just the bit of getting to know you that I have done You seem so fun and kind and genuine. So thank you for having me here today.

Huh? Thank you. For folks who are hearing from you for the first time you want to introduce yourself and tell people a bit about what you do. And we would love to hear as much or as little of your story as you want to share, like getting to this place where you're doing the work that you do now.

Oh my goodness. Erica and I have both been discussing a term that is actually newer to me, called a social entrepreneur, and finding my way through owning that title. As someone who creates businesses and programs and opportunities as that is concerned with changing our culture. And so when I think about what I do and how I got here, I go all the way back to when I was actually six. I became really curious about my grandmother's Polaroid camera and started picking it up and sneaking it and taking pictures of people they didn't know I was taking gives you an A The idea of what kind of six year old I was hiding under tables, you name it, I was getting the photo. And I quickly realized that we have the ability through mediums like photography, design, branding, visibility to shape how the world perceives us. The biggest way I landed there was I actually recognized that my dad at his job every day, was viewed as like this really strong, powerful black man, everyone looked up to him. He really knew what he was doing on the job, he was well respected. And when he was at my grandmother's house, he was relaxed, he was softer, he was kinder, I saw a whole nother side of him that his colleagues never got to see. And so that experience of the Polaroid camera just cut me constantly reconsidering and maybe a subconscious way throughout my life, of what is this relationship between our identity, and then what we choose to show the rest of the world?

Letting that sink in for everybody. And for myself, I love it. I love it. So now, you are part of running the positive play community. You have your podcast, flaunt your fire. And you also do branding and visibility work? Yes,

yes. Yeah.

So something that I heard you say yesterday, because while at least at the time of recording this, there'll be a bit before this comes out. But I had the privilege of being a part of one of the PAs on the play community events, which was your collaboration, speed dating. And I heard you say something about wanting to challenge this idea that we have to choose between, like aligning our values and our business and making money or making more money and saying that actually, we can center our purpose and our values and make more money. And it I already had this time with you booked. But I was like, Oh, yes. He's coming on, transcend your dichotomy. And we get to dig into this dichotomy. And I'm so excited. So what are your thoughts on that? Like, just right off the cuff? Like, why is this something that's so present for you right now?

Oh, my gosh, I mean, I think, being now recording in 2022, probably being released in 2023. Right, a very near example of this concern being on people's minds and hearts is 2020, when everyone felt like society was calling them out or up, however, they chose to see it, to talk about their values, specifically to talk about the murder of black people. You know, in America, no matter what country we were from, you were very aware of what was happening here. And so when I think about even that near or more recent experience of, hmm, I probably should say something society is telling me I need to say something. Even in that type of a moment where we're being called up or called out to do that. The number one question that people had, that some were too afraid to say, and some were trusted us enough to be honest about was what will be the repercussions of this? Who will I lose? Who will stop paying me? If I talk about what I believe in if I talk about how I feel about what's happening in the world, because I think so often business owners are taught that your whole purpose is to really be a generator of money, right? We're here to collect the money, redistribute the money into our teams and society, pay ourselves. But ultimately, a business's role is to be profitable. And if a business is not profitable, it's not going to stay open very long. And so so many business owners have at times concern was how will this affect my bottom line? Who will I lose? Who will leave me behind? By mentioning what I believe in? It's a very valid concern. And what I got to witness firsthand is that so many businesses that started to talk about what they believe in, and really say, like, if this is not what you believe into, that's totally okay. There's another business for you, but it's not here, actually increase their revenue. You know, it wasn't their intention to use that as a way to make more money. But they did make more money, they had new people come to them that said, I wouldn't have purchased from you in the past, because I didn't think that you cared about people that look like me, but now that I know I feel more comfortable exploring what it's like to work with this company or buy this product or buy this service.

Yeah, yeah. We're really like, in a time, for sure right now where knowing that the person that you're about to interact with aligns with your values is like so top of mind for people. And also what I see happen so often. And I'm curious what your thoughts on this is like, it's easy to say it. Some. I mean, it's not easy to say it for all the reasons that you just said. But once you say it right, then and especially if you're in a circle where everyone agrees, right, like, Okay, I'm only around people who all are saying this same thing, you might say it, but then when it comes to really integrating your values and your business and the way that you run your business. Now there's all of these other sticking points that come up, where it's like, oh, but like, How can I do that and still be profitable, or I know, one of the ones that I noticed a lot around that same time. And it came up for me to like, full transparency. It's not like I'm like, you know, it was there for me as well. Was this like, but how do I market myself event? Like if if something is, if something big is happening? It seems like almost every single day? And those are the things that I'm supposed to be talking about? And how do I talk about my business, and I'm allowed to talk about my business, when something big is going on? Or like what if I'm in the middle of a launch, you know, that panic, around around all of that. Luckily, I have some good people in my circle, who like were, we were all I mean, not gonna say we were all holding each other accountable. I feel like many of them were holding me accountable without even realizing it by just modeling the behavior. But what I definitely have witnessed is that, like what you were speaking to, you know, if you just say that these are your values, but you're not living them than any sort of increase that you do happen to get in business as a result is not going to be sustained. If people don't show up and see it. It's not going to do the trick.

Oh, yeah. I mean, people are so much smarter and inquisitive and curious and wiser, I think, than we give them credit for sometimes. And so I mean, we've witnessed it with so many brands, where you're saying one thing, and you're doing another and eventually people find out? And, you know, hopefully you get it together when they do. But if not, you know, you're gonna lose your clients. That's just the reality of that. Because I think that people do value integrity. And that's such an over and over selected value for brands, can we stop picking that right? But I hope you value integrity. And I think we're wise enough to witness our people actually doing what they say they're going to do and make new decisions. According to that. One of the things that you mentioned is, you know, what do you do when there's something happening in the world. And I think that that's a real concern for people. And so one of the things that we share in our community, recognizing that there are leaders of businesses in our community, as well as people in leadership roles within corporations, is a resource called five steps to be a visible and vulnerable leader during a crisis. And it's so important because your people need you to show up. And your business needs to stay profitable. And so it goes into those five steps to figure out what do you do next? If anything? What do you say next, if anything? And then how do you ease back into, you know, the next step of your normal business things without going back to business as usual, because you know, that that's the thing too. And I think one of the biggest things that stands out to me and that resource is giving yourself a moment to take a pause, and not just do what you see every other business owner or every other influencer or brand that you love on social media doing and actually pausing to learn what happened, do your research and then start to decide how you want to respond from your own heart from your own brand's values.

Yeah, that's so important. And I think an example of like, you know, really challenging, like the, I guess, like systems and things that we were brought up under versus like, appearing to challenge them, right, because you can jump to just one of the things that really, really, and I used to do this, like, and now that I see now that I see other people do it, and I'm more aware of how I'm affected by it, because I've just been honestly like in therapy. That's why I'm aware that I'm affected by it. Now I see it and I'm like, wow, like I am I really don't want to be that person is this like, okay, something's going on. So to show that I care about it, I'm just gonna dump a bunch of things that I'm seeing into my stories to like, quote, unquote, like, raise awareness about it. Sometimes that is what's happening but sometimes you are just Just like dumping a bunch of traumatizing stuff into your stories that people are not trying to see. And all that you're doing is it's just this way of being like, I'm appearing as though I care. I'm doing my thing of like speaking up about this. And what I've learned is that that for me back whenever, you know, not that I've arrived on anything, that's for damn sure. But you know, there was definitely a time where that was my reaction, like, immediately. And now I'm like, okay, like, I would prefer to say nothing at first. And kind of process some of this and figure out like, where I even stand on this? Or like, is it even the time for me to say anything? Is it the time for me to just listen to people like, you know, and I actually had to, luckily, my coach, Lena West, who is amazing, and who is also fantastic at holding me accountable. said to me one time, like you need to have a plan in place for when something like this happens with your whole team. And my VA, I actually had a conversation with her. And I was like, hey, like, I think that there was one time where I had scheduled a bunch of stuff, and I was gonna be out of work for a bit. And I was like, Hey, I just want you to know that if anything happens, just hit pause on everything. Like, we don't need to even know what to do, just just pause it, and then we can figure out what to do. But I needed to get her in on it too. Because, you know, like you. You know, now I'm just rambling at this point. But no, but

you're so right, that pause that I mentioned, it's part of pause for yourself to process what's happening, to educate yourself on what's happening, and to do some of the emotional work involved with what's the different things that can happen in our world, and that we're having to navigate daily. And also, it's literally a pause on your content to decide what's next. You know, is it the regular scheduled program? Or is it something different? Yeah, you want to slightly edit certain things to be more conscious of what other people's experiences might be in that moment, but at least you gave yourself the pause to figure it out.

Yeah. And that, I guess, is part of why I kind of had to include my VA in on it too, is because I realized that if I just take the pause for myself, what happens is, from the outside perspective, everything's still going because a lot of my content is like scheduled to come out. So if I just say, Okay, I'm going to pause, the business doesn't actually pause because I set it up beforehand. That was a big learning for me, right? It was like, oh, okay, you're, you know, you're put on your big girl pants broke, you're running the business. Right? Write? It's not just what's going on with me. Um, I'm really curious to get your thoughts more around visibility, because I work with a lot of people who have, you know, they're hearing like that they need to be more visible, or they need to put themselves out there. And they need to show up for their brand. And this that and like, yes. And also, some folks have a lot of deep stuff around visibility, or don't feel safe to be visible for, you know, whatever reason. And I think visibility can like, it's such a loaded word, when we really think about it from a business standpoint. And when you talk about visibility, I'm curious to know, like, in the work that you do, how deep do you go? Is it about like, the brand visibility? Is it about, you know, focusing on like, what's holding us back from being visible? And what do you find? Are those like sticking points?

Oh, I mean, I honestly think it's everything. Yeah. When I think about visibility, there is the showing up. And part of that is how you want to be perceived, right? What you want to allow it to be visible to other people, and what you might want to keep just for your close friends, family or yourself, you know, those are things to evaluate. Because I don't believe that just because we're a leader of a brand, or because we're solopreneur, or an influencer or a personal brand, that we have to share everything about ourselves with everyone. And so there's an interesting dance here that we get to do. And I'm going to acknowledge that it's a privilege to be able to do it to decide what we allow to be visible and what we don't, how we curate that, and how we also still allow it to be what I would hope is some bit of authenticity of who we really are in that process as well. And then there's the visibility of the actual like, here's the textbook definition, right? So there's the showing up piece, but there's also are you able to witness others. And that's the piece that I think often gets left behind when visibility is talked about in the business space, because it requires being able to, truly like if you were to imagine yourself in a vo Cole driving down the street, and it's foggy, right? It's can someone see your vehicle coming? But also can you see their vehicle coming on the other side of the street? Like that's a valid thing. And so we have to also ask ourselves that other piece of visibility of are we witnessing the people that choose to follow us? Are we witnessing the people that choose to listen to our podcasts or that show up in our spaces? Are we taking the time to learn more about them and their stories? Because much of visibility, I think, in a business space is to grow our audience. But for what are we growing it to convert into clients? Are we growing it into affiliate sales? You know, what might that be. But if we're growing our audience, then part of growing our audience is also building a relationship with them. So when it is time to invite them into something we have to offer, they actually know like, and trust us and are interested in that. That's not going to happen, if we don't take the time to get to know why they're there, what they're interested in what matters to them.

I have never heard someone bring up that part of visibility, I'm so glad that I was just like, let's just unpack what this word means. Because, obviously, obviously, and I'm listening to what you're saying. And I'm thinking like when you're saying, you know, for what, one of the things that comes into my mind, too, is, and this is probably because I'm deep in creating this new offer that would have already come out at this point. But I come from like a process improvement background. And one of the things that we talked about in process improvement is like the value stream. And it's like, every single thing that you do in your business is ultimately like leaning toward the thing that's going to create the value which for you. It's the exchange, right? It's like the income for you, but the value that you're creating for the person that's giving you that money. And so one of the things that I'm always thinking about is, how can you make that that end offer the place that you're inviting people into? How can you make sure that that is really in alignment for you. So that way, every single other thing that you do in your business that's aligned with that, right, it's all kind of like, it's all for a reason. But also, if you're making sure that it's squarely within your values, then it's so much easier to do everything else within your values, right, and to have that integrity. And I'm hearing you talking about visibility in this way of seeing them as well. And what I'm realizing is, of course, that would increase your ability to make more money because it increases your ability to create more value for people. And not in a like necessarily just like a really transactionally. But like in a real like, a lot of the folks who listen to this podcast are in service based businesses where they do pretty deep work, like coaching work and that sort of thing. You can't do that work in a container where people don't feel seen, know, and they're not even gonna walk into it, if they don't feel seen up until they work with you. I'm just throwing all these thoughts at you right now. Because now I'm having epiphanies.

I love it. But you're completely right. And it's, it's the ability to witness them. It's also it's also taking a moment to do something that sounds incredibly basic. But given our society, speaking as a black woman in America, you know, can be incredibly hard to witness people trying to do and struggling to do, which is just being a human. If you were on the street and you met 1000 people, right? You'd be like, Wow, this is a ton of people. Yeah, you wouldn't have enough time to even get to know all of them. But the few that you end up chatting with, you might build some real deep, meaningful relationships. And yet, I think that when we switch into thinking about our businesses online, we forget that there's a whole 1000 people there, and instead, we go look for 1000 More, instead of taking the time to get to know the 1000 that already, like voted with their follow. Just say I want to know more about you.

Yeah, this is why there was a period of time in my business where I had a very small, you know, follow I mean, I still have a pretty small following. I have like 200 email subscribers or something like that, like I have, like, I don't even know how many Instagram followers I have this point, but it's small in the grand scheme of things. And yet I'm like doing what I consider to be like pretty damn good. Like, I'm feeling I'm feeling good, like in 2022. And but there was a time in my business where I was always talking about and thinking about, like the value of having a smaller audience because my experience was I got to know them. Like I got to know who they were. And I got to say things and like my emails and stuff, especially I think back on when I have like 50 email subscribers, I was so fucking bold, this shit that I said in my emails back when I had like this tiny group of people listening to me, I was like, what are people gonna say, I know all of these people, like, you know, like, I was so bold. And I feel like you know, what you're speaking to here is kind of a part of why because it was like, there was that visibility there in terms of like, I knew who they were, I could like see through like I could, I could picture on the other side of the screen, who was going to be opening those emails, I could literally open like, my subscriber list, and I knew who all of those people were, you know, and that visibility made it so that I could show up in a way where I think, if I had a bigger platform at the time, I would have been way too scared, because I would have been worried about like, who's going to hear this? Or what are you going to think about this? Or is this going to be for them? And yeah, it's like that intention behind who you're inviting in, and like, knowing who those people are. And the way that that that's so like, liberating for you, too, as the person putting the putting the messaging out there.

Absolutely. And so two things come to mind from what you shared. Number one, is, if you are listening to this in audio form, and you are in a safe space to close your eyes for a moment, close your eyes, I want you to close your eyes to Brooke, I'm going to close mine with you. You shared that you had 200 people, can you imagine 200 people crammed in your office right now

I know. I know it really.

So I want you to just take a deep breath and think about how many email subscribers or Instagram followers or tick tock people, whatever the platform is that you spend your time on. Imagine that number of people in the room with you right now, that's a lot more people than we give it for. All right, I want you to open your eyes, go back to driving or working out in the gym, or whatever it is safely. And the second piece is a really holding space for if you are well beyond that 100 marker, right? You have the ability to ask yourself, what are the most important values that you hold? Maybe start with just three of them. Okay, and then I want you to think about one of those people that have those same three values that you think is fucking awesome. And that's who you talk to, every time it doesn't matter how many people are listening, talk to that person every time, you want to give yourself a little extra credit variety, pick one more person with those same three values. That's fucking awesome for different reasons. But what brings you together, and why it works is that you have something in common that matters to you beyond anything you could ever sell. Right? That means that you could change what your offers are, you could change the name of your business, you could start selling ice cream commercially in the grocery stores, and they're still going to stay around because your values are the same. Right? Yeah, they bought into you and the idea and the causes that matter to your brand, and the impact that we're making into the world. And that goes through to your team, if you have one because they're supporting the same values and the same impact. You could change the CEO, they're still there for the ride.

Mm hmm. Okay, everybody listening right now. If you did not just hear what India said, I am going to instruct you to at this point, like hit the back 30 seconds thing a few times, and go back because that piece of advice that you just gave where you said like imagine the actual person. First of all, I love that you're talking about a real person, because I think there's what I find a lot is with clients that I work with, they get their they've heard the create your ideal customer avatar, so many times and they want to barf and I am always telling them like just think of an actual person. It's first of all, it is like so much, just more. It's just so much easier. And you don't need to dream someone out because the people already exist. But like if you do what India does told you to do, and you actually every single time that you show up, talk directly to that person that you're imagining as though you are writing them a personal email or as though you are recording them a personal message. I am telling you, it is going to have a difference. It is going to make a difference in how effective your content is. I had a coach tell me to do that. Very early on. And I seriously I was like, oh my god, this is magic. Wait, this is all I had to do. This is all I had to do was just talk directly to this person and then just like give this gift to all of my people who are around and I still do it every single email that I write, I put a name in the I write, hi, and I put the person's name on it real person who I'm writing to, and I write the email directly to them. And then before I put it in my document that I share with my VA, I take the name out.

I love it. And sharing with you sometimes Erica and I, we will write little posting notes. I like the post it flags. Presidents are a little big for me, but I'll write on a post it flag a name and one of our community members. And I'll literally stick it on my laptop or on the screen of the computer on my ring light. And every single time I turn the light on to do something, record a podcast episode, write an email, via guests on someone else's interview, I try my best to look at that post it note or that flag and say, oh, okay, what would this person benefit most from hearing today? Oh, I love that.

We love to make things so much more complicated than they need to be. You know, it's like, yeah, but India, what else? But what else do we need to do? But what about my content strategy, my content calendar? And how many times do I need to show up? And what platform? Should I be accountable? It's like, no, just talk directly to your person. That's what I want you to do. Yes, and

there's so many other layers to the complication. So I wouldn't be the co founder of a diversity, equity, inclusion, conscious community, without stating that when we create an ideal client avatar, we are frankensteining a role. Like, instead of using a real human, we are creating a Frankenstein human that doesn't actually exist, right? We're doing that based on demographics, typically. So where they're geographically located, how much money they do, or don't make, what their marital statuses with their races, what their gender identity is, how old they are. And as I lay all those things out, if you can close your eyes, again, I want you to picture what matters to that person. Right? You can't, because none of those, like demographic indicators actually determine what someone's values are, or how they live in love, or what their fears are, or what makes them happy. Right? So when we go along with this crappy business advice that I don't know why is out there, especially in the marketing space to create these fake humans, you know, and plug in their demographics, we leave people behind that might actually be a wonderful fit for us, but they weren't the race, we thought they should be stereotypes much. We leave people behind that might actually be able to or willing to afford what we have to offer, but they didn't make the income we thought they should make. Right. And we also feed into society's way of putting people into buckets, that are not actually who they are. So when you go back and you say, let me find a real human who has like three values that I have. And I think they're awesome, and you talk to them every time. And maybe you decide to add on another human or two to that mix. As you go along. You are a part of the process of moving away from stereotypes moving away from categorizing, and labeling people and actually viewing humans for who they are and what matters to them.

Ah. Yeah, you're so right. And yeah. You know, and this is an example of, I can't tell you the number of people who I have talked to who have said, I've tried it so many times, because different people keep telling me that I need to do it. And I just, it's just not the way that things are with me and my clients, you know, it doesn't come down to their demographic information. So how am I supposed to and the thing that I always say to them is like, okay, great. So you know that, so instead of constantly going back to what you think you're supposed to do, do it the way that you already know, you need to do it differently. You know, like, that's one of those things where if something that someone's telling you to do feels gross for you, or feels like totally not right, or like it's not, you know, your business better than anybody else does. And that's one of those instances to trust that and like don't do it that way. You know, and this is an example I think what you're sharing right here is an example of how, you know, if, if those of us who have already come up against that and felt that gross feeling, trusted ourselves a bit more than we could have been working against some of those, you know, practices, and yet we put more trust in that. Then we did it ourselves. And that, to me, is what that so often comes back to is like trusting yourself, you know, to do things differently. Yeah, and

maybe even getting a little bit curious about why you may have entertained that, you know, is there some I'm not qualified enough, right coming up or I don't know enough. So I have to follow this person who is in a higher status than me, or has been doing this longer. Sometimes it is the myth of more, right? Well, if we pick a demographic, or if we pick the specific thing that we're told we need to do, we'll get more people. But I say it's a myth. Because when you talk to one person, maybe two people, but you're specifically talking to those three to five values that you've selected, right, you actually get way more people because there's way more people and way more diversity of those people who have those same values. And then the other thing that comes to mind for me is just as you start this process, it seems like something simple of switching from demographics to like a real human. And that's an easy actionable step from this episode is to really write down your three values, five, Max, you know, and decide who you know, that you've worked with, or want to work with, or in a working relationship with if you're in a corporate environment, that you would love to clone, and have like tons of them. And as you pick that person, give yourself an opportunity to ask yourself, if you talk to them every time, what else would you do differently? Now that you're talking to a real human, you're treating the people on your email list like real people, treating your podcast listeners, like real listeners, what else would you do differently? One of the things that we began to dig into a few years ago, is the subject of consent. Right? And so if I were talking to someone that I loved and cared about, or a client that I had a loving relationship with and wanted to clone, I would ask for their consent before I sell them something else. Right? I would ask their thoughts and opinions, when I'm in communication with them, instead of just one sided emails, I would allow them to reply and encourage them to reply to my emails, I might make a more collaborative relationship here and allow them to shape some of the content that's coming out, or give feedback of what they would like more of. And so a lot of things shift, when we begin to get curious about Okay, now that I'm talking to this person, they were actually right physically in front of me, what else would I change?

Mm hmm. And it's gonna be so much more sustainable. By the way. I'm no longer like forcing yourself to do things just because you think you're supposed to. And it's like, Oh, I get to do this. Oh, like, these are people I want to show up for and I get to show up this way. Because this is what I would do. If I were really in community and relationship with them, which guess what you are like,

Yeah, your confidence changes as well. Or at least for me, I can say my confidence. And a lot of our clients confidence has changed. Because when you are sending out that sales invitation, you know that it's truly an invitation you didn't spam somebody with by this, because they got onto your email list because they actually wanted to communicate with you, not because they were trying to get a freebie. That's one of the things that we decided to do differently is we don't have opt ins, we have letters you want our letters, or you don't know. And if you want our letters, we know you actually wanted it. So we feel confident every time we send a new letter to you once a week, because that's what you knew you were signing up for. And in addition to that, before we decide to start selling anything, we ask for your consent, do you want to receive emails about this thing that we're selling, and inviting you to? It feels like an actual invitation. And not like a spammy? Here's our billboard, you know, right? And people have the option to click a button to opt out of that. If they don't want it, and so don't ever see it.

Yeah. I love this. I love all this. I'm I'm, I'm really taking it in and like pausing and thinking through your setting because genuinely, I'm like it's shifting something because a lot of this is stuff that I have been talking about for a long time. But you're not specific examples, though, that you're giving and you're adding like more complexity to it. That is just I mean, anyone who listens to the show knows that anytime that there's like an opportunity to add more nuance and complexity to a topic I'm like so for it. I'm like, all of these actionable, like, I'm gonna give you a quick little actionable thing. I'm like, No, give me the long version with all of the nuance and all of the details. But I think it sets people up to be able to make better decisions for themselves and for their own business and to be able to make their own choices and the way that they want to move forward. When you do get Give all of this kind of context behind this, right? Like, you're not saying, you should not send people sales emails, unless you have XYZ. That's not what you're saying, right? What you're saying is like, this is what consent looks like. And when you send her this, you are more like, you're actually opening yourself up to be able to connect with them in a deeper way. And that impacts your business for all these reasons, right? Like, that is so valuable for folks who I think are listening, who really care about these values and want to be in alignment with these values. But the only advice that they've been ease that has been easy for them to find has been like, cut that part of you off and do things the way that they're supposed to be done, because this is the only way that you're gonna make money, right? And what you're saying is like, Absolutely not, right. It's, there's a, there's a third option.

Oh, yeah, I mean, when you start moving into viewing your ideal person, as a real person, and you pick them based on your values, there's so much freedom to actually talk about what matters, we are here for so much more than money. Yeah, right. We are here for so much more than productivity and to continue to produce, we have entire lives, you know, ahead of us and legacies that we're going to leave behind that go beyond our businesses and our work. And so when we can start to tap into and talk about those things, and know that the people there want to talk about that with us, oh my goodness, at the deeper and deeper levels of connecting that built in accountability in your own community, to keep sharing things about your values and doing things to be more in alignment with them, the ideas that they'll even just bring to you an inspiration to keep going, the referrals increase. And people tend to stay with you for a lifetime. Because for the most part, small things about how we carry out our values, what we will do and won't do, because of them may shift over the years. But typically, the values don't change that much. So your people aren't really going to change.

India, I want to know from you, and this is a little bit of a, I might be springing this on you, but I know you and so I know you're gonna have an answer to it. Because I think this is right up your alley. My dog just came to visit. So if anyone's hearing looking, Socrates just came up. All the listeners know, Socrates, he says, Hi, everybody. Um, what's something that you're doing differently in your business like something or have done like something that's like, kind of against the standard advice? Or like, against the grain? That you maybe you just shared it? I mean, you don't even have an opt in? So

yeah, I would say an easy one is an opt in. But I mean, if you'd like a bonus one, oh, we stopped doing any type of social media ads that go to Instagram or Facebook. It no longer felt aligned with to give our money to those companies. They feel very melt values misaligned. Yeah, um, and, yeah, we started to experiment with and explore investing into humans, we value humans, we I personally feel like humans buy from other humans. Even if you have a big brand like Dior or Chanel. And these household names, it's still a human at the register, that is helping them find the right product and ringing them up. So we started investing in humans, and for us that look like doing a referral partnership with people. And we do have a more streamlined, like affiliate link way of doing it, but we just do it really differently. It's not like, oh, well, anyone and everyone who has a podcast and a big following gets to be our partner, right? We're actually like, looking at who has similar values to our brands, and where is there a logical connection there and a true loving relationship with one another where we actually want to support each other and keep that relationship going even beyond the revenue generation.

And also, if I if I may share this other thing that you do differently about your partnership, or your will your affiliate program was first of all, like more of like a partnership, but like it's very like a you can do you can promote this in the way that you want to promote this Yes. Rather than like, this is what we asked for from you if you're going to be in the club. And this is exactly how it needs it right. It's like we you wouldn't be a partner if we didn't trust you to like put this out there and people are values aligned and like we trust you to promote this how you want and like it's your marketing plan until like, do what you will. Yeah, yeah.

And full transparency in another lifetime. Another lifetime another season of my life. Yeah, pretty recently, though. I was doing competitive bodybuilding. And so everyone in the fitness and wellness industry wants to work with, you know, professional athletes, because you're getting all this attention and pictures on stage and everyone's seeing the results you're getting. So we're like, oh, we can just stamp our protein powder. And you people believe the protein powder got you looking like that. And so I got to witness with the other side of that is for product based businesses, and it is very much you're required to post this amount of times a month, you're required to send out this amount of emails, you need to close this amount of sales from your affiliate link in this period of time, or you're out of our program. And you need to wear our free T shirts at least once a week or something. Yeah. And so for us, we were like, oh, hell, no, we're not doing it that way. We believe in people being able to show up as themselves. And because we have a community that is based on talking about the things that nobody else is wanting to talk about publicly talking about sex, I'm talking about politics, I'm talking about racism, injustice, that's not something that we can give you swipe copy for that feels completely misaligned, to write somebody's copy for their own personal experiences and values, our partners have to be willing to share. And so we're happy to help them get there to the point where they feel comfortable and confident and sharing. And we really enjoyed making ourselves available to our partners to do guest interviews, to talk to their communities to be on IG lives with them, and to really dig into what matters to them. Right, and how that shows up in their life and in their work. And that is the way that we we create that content in a very accessible way as well.

Yeah, I love that I recently started the last time, I don't really launch anything anymore. I mean, every now and then I'm like, All right, we're gonna do this like bonus cohort of this thing. But most of my stuff is all just evergreen at this point. But the last time that I did do a, you know, it was trying to do more of like a cohort kind of experience. I just said to all the people that were working with me, I was like, I'm just gonna give you money. If you refer somebody to me, like, I would rather just like, give you the money, like then create this, like elaborate kind of like, you know, bonus like program or like, you know, put the money into like advertising or something like that. And that was actually something that my heart out who's been on the show before, which she did a great episode on money. So anybody who's listening, if you want to go back and listen to a great money episode, but that she was actually somebody who kind of said that, to me the first time where she was like, Yeah, I'd actually rather take my marketing budget and like, give it to people who I'm in community with, then like, give it to them pay for it to advertise. And I was like, oh, yeah, like, I didn't think about it that way. But like, Duh. You know, but I think that we see affiliate programs done in such a gross way sometimes. Or we see it done in a way where it's like, I don't know if this has ever happened to you probably. But like, Have you ever been subscribed to like a few people's email lists, and then all of them start emailing you about the same

email? Suddenly, because it's because the marketing industry and affiliate partnership industry is telling people that you need to provide your partner's with swipe copy. Yeah, right. And for anybody who's not familiar with that is, is basically, you provided them with an already written email, and they plug in one or two changes, and that's the email that they send you. And that is not their messaging. That's not what matters to them, like you got used to a certain type of email from them. And it's also just not authentic. I understand that it is leverage and it saves time. We can give people like copy prompts, journal prompts, so to speak, of ideas of what to talk about, but that actual like written message or audio message or video message that goes out and needs to come from your heart, or you're just selling something because you're making a profit, right.

And yeah, sir, anything else that we did not chat about today that you would love to leave folks with? And I definitely want you to tell people how to find you. But make sure that there are any other little tidbits that you were hoping we would get to

Oh, I feel like I need to come back

a lot. You do open door policy you come back whenever you want. You just let me know.

I don't want their heads to explode.

There, they're ready for it. They can they can control the pace. They can pause and go and do what they need to do and then and then come back. Yeah, no, you are more than welcome to come back. If folks want to hear more from you. Where can they come and find you?

Sure. One of the first things you can do is you're already listening to a podcast. So just open your podcast player and search for font your fire. On the fire fire podcast, we talk about visibility, we talk about branding, we talk about marketing and we We are talking about it from a place of being equitable, being ethical. And so it's just a really different approach to those conversations and also, every now and then I had the pleasure of having one of my therapist friends Come on, and we'll talk about how do you sustain that visibility without burning out or losing pieces of your identity are having identity crisis. So those are fun conversations as well because I do think that it's important to give both sides of that. And then last but not least, you can also find out more about our community pause and the play and Brooke you're going to have a link in the show notes for that.

I sure well, and if you're listening and you are on my email list, and you can also check your inbox because I always send you all the stuff directly to your email as well. So whichever one is easier for you to find we will make sure that you can go and find India and hear more goodness and it sounds like India's gonna be back anyway so just you know, stay tuned. And yeah, thank you so much. I really appreciate it you giving me so much of your time and and how generous you were today. I can't wait for folks to hear this. Transcend your dichotomy is a production of passion and process collaborative LLC. The show was produced by me Brooke Monaghan with production and marketing support from Giulia pink crunch. Ron Johnny creates blog posts from some of our episodes, which you can find on the episode page at Brooke dash monaghan.com/podcast along with a transcript of today's episode, and any other resources I shared today, if you're ready to put this work into action, head to book dash monaghan.com To learn more about transcend your dichotomy training camp and coaching with me. Love you. I'll see you next week.