Get the recording. So there are so many models and theories out there. And the theories are, of course, the ideas of what underpins what we do. And they support the models that we use. Now, what I'm curious to know from you is about the different theories that you lean into the ones that are your go twos. And the models, also, which ones do you use as a go to? Or what is your framework, you know, for creating the courses that you create? And, you know, what are your feelings about some of them? Like, for example, let's take the ADDIE model. Now, a lot of people might think that's an antiquated model to use. It's been around since the 50s. So maybe because of its timestamp, maybe it is antiquated, maybe we shouldn't be using it. But what is your thoughts and feelings about that particular model, as well as some of the others that we are using? So let me jump it off there. Let's start first with what instructional design models are you currently using? Now you can feel free to, as always, no judgement zone here. You can come off Mike, you can unmute yourself and just go ahead and share away or you can put it into the chat. Either way, let me know. What is your go to model?
Or do you use a model? Maybe that's the question I need to start with? Do you use an instructional design model to create your work?
Okay, I'll make it easier for everyone. I am the least educated in instructional design. And whatever I am doing supposedly has a name to it. But I don't even know what the name is. But it's always working with the end in mind. That's all I really know. And I know that there's a Bloom's Taxonomy, which I look at. And that's about it. So you all are going to do a better job than I am. So you go.
That's, that's not necessarily true at all. And I'll tell you, my my education is not in instructional design. It's actually in communications, business communication, specifically, you know, but I beginning with the end in mind is always where I start. Right? It's what are the goals of the business? What are the goals of the learner, and then we can work backwards from there, to figure out what we need to design and what questions we need to ask. And there is actually a loosely defined model that is about beginning with the end in mind, you know, so there's that so you can feel good about that. You can say, Yes, I have attached myself to something. And let's see what if I recall, I think it is called. I think it is called beginning with the end of not beginning with the end in mind, because that was always a Franklin Covey thing, but I'll think about the former one, but I know it's thinking something in my head, what else are you guys doing or not doing? You know, go ahead and share.
I'll add something here. My boss right now is, is a jump in and just start doing it type of person. Okay, partially how I developed my training. And granted, I know, I don't live in corporate America, I'm in an association. So it's kind of different, you know, we don't interact with employees and sneezes much as much as every buddy else. So, you know, as much as I try to develop a framework, I feel like she sees or feels like that's bogging it down. Like if if I want to do the analysis and kind of work with this, me and then do a storyboard, you know, she's more of a jump in person. So I'm like, Well, I think I need to, you know, jump right in, in do it as well. So, which kind of throws everything out the window, because then you're not thinking through it logically and sequentially, and you know, how it's impacting the learner. So I'm kind of doing a hybrid of working with what my boss wants, but understanding what's important in instructional design space to ensure that you have sound training, because our content is very it's industry specific training and very, you know, factual, you know, facts and the concepts, you know, heavy. So it's hard to, you know, make that dynamic and maybe put it in a format. You know, that's really user friendly. way, but yeah, anyway, kind of going off on a different tangent there. So it's it's interesting to me that I think your leadership kind of influences, you know, how you develop training and how structured you will be with a format.
I agree with that. Any anyone have any thoughts about what Kathy just said? Because I think that's a great point. How do you feel about that? Jacqueline ICU, you feel her pain?
Yeah, a little bit. I mean, so I've been at ascm for about two and a half years. And I manage and Brandon, like the instructor program for them. So they training our instructors to be able to teach our materials, but also kind of coming in, after it's been running for, you know, 3040 years and kind of figuring out where the gaps are, or how we can like, improve some of our training courseware and stuff like that for our instructors. Because some of them, like one of the models they have within our courseware is cold, which I am not familiar with. But we also use VARK to help them determine, you know, how learners learn maybe how their learners come into their class and what they use to learn. So I'm not sure if you guys are familiar with those, those were new to me. You know, I'm actually graduated college with an education and you know, so those ones were new to me, but also found them called I think were might be trying to switch out, but some of them they kind of come in and figure out like, where do we what do we need to switch to if anything?
Right now called those models? called K, oh, lb. And VARK var. K? Those are learning style models? Yeah. Which we don't need to get on that way. We don't need to get on that. So pause right now about the the fallacies of learning style models. So really, it's a lot of times, leadership's will say, Okay, well, well, we need, we need our programs to address the variety of learning styles that are out there. And really, that's the that's the opposite way to approach it. It would be more towards what Chris is doing here. When you think about backward design is, what is it that people need? And what what learning can we put in front of them? That's going to create the need, right? Because when you think about VARK, right, so visual audio, video, visual, audio, kinesthetic, etc. It's we don't learn how to work. We don't learn how to ride a bike through listening to a podcast. So you may say, I'm an audio person, and it's like, well, no, that's not true. Right? You, you, you learn it through doing right. And that's more kinesthetic. And then by the same way, it's like, I don't learn how to be a doctor through kinesthetic learning. That does that doesn't work, either. I do not want my doctor to say, Well, I just tried it, see what happened. I don't want I don't want that in a doctor. Right? So then there's, so there's different discrepancies there. That, that being said, you can move away from that without leadership feeling like you're moving away from that simply by using things like backward design, or through root cause analysis, like things like the five why's. So if we use the five why's, and we can get down to the heart of what really needs to happen. And then we can start a conversation about what really needs to happen, just kind of not really telling leaders that Oh, you're wrong leering styles, boo, you know, so we don't want to put them into that into that feeling of they've got to defend what they believe it's like, Okay, that's great. Let's, let's try it from this approach. And see what happens. Right. And then I see in in the chat there with a Tamachi. Thank you for joining us to maki is the ADDIE model. So we got people who are starting with the ADDIE model, and then maybe some people start with adding add ice, right? Analysis, Design, develop, implement evaluation, and then they roll over into something like Sam, you know, which is the the approximation model, right? So you've got something that's a little bit more agile, so you turn something that might be more linear in nature and moving it to something that's a little bit more agile, which I think is the way We're moving as far as instructional designers are concerned, which is a a melding, if you will, of different models and using those different models, bits and pieces of those different models to make things work for us. Right. So now I'm curious what sounds like just moving towards designing the actual skills, right? You know, what, what do we need. So when you think about different models, and how they work with each other, as I roll through my list here, um, you mentioned Bloom's taxonomy. And it's interesting, I don't really consider Bloom's Taxonomy, an instructional design model. And that might be that might be because I'm coming from a different background, I consider Bloom's taxonomy to be more of a theory that we can lean into, you know, so when we use Bloom's Taxonomy, we use those usually to write learning outcomes, learning objectives, right? And then you've got, where does the learning fit in Bloom's taxonomy? And one of the misnomers about Bloom's Taxonomy is that you have to move people through the taxonomy. But, and maybe that's true, maybe that's how it's taught me, Jacqueline, you know, so if you if you went through, you know, and you've got your degree in education, maybe that's the way you were taught, but the way that I see it now, is, what do we want people to do with the information? Do we need them just to comprehend it? Do we need them to apply it? Do you need them to analyze it or synthesize it? What is evaluated? What is it that you need people to do with the information, pick your point, and create your jump off there? And then there are many, many templates that help you select the appropriate verbs for writing your learning objectives, etc. And learning objectives is a whole other soapbox of mine that I won't get into at this point. But it's, but it is about using Bloom's taxonomy to underpin the goal of the training. Right.
And so for me, I use it to help me think about what kind of activities do I need to do exactly, so that it can reinforce that outcome? If it's a skill based? If it's what do we need them to be able to know? To be able to do? Right? So I'm definitely gonna change mindsets, right. So what do they need to do using Bloom's technology? Taxonomy?
Yeah, right. Exactly. And I completely agree with that. I think this is how, in this age of ID this is how we're seeing past models or theories, and using them to help us move forward. Right. So rather than, you know, taking people through thinking, Oh, they've got to understand they've got to comprehend, they've got to, you know, where can we start the wish the jumping off point, what is it that we really want them to do? You know, and the same I, I would say, so you've got Bloom's Taxonomy as, as something to lean into. So, um, and then the other one, as far as a design perspective is gone. These nine events of learning, that's the other one, right? And so those actually, those are two models slash theories that I lean into personally. Because when you think about instructional design as a whole, when you think about God knows nine events, and what the nine events tell you is within each event itself, that event is going to be incorporated into your design. So that means what is how do you gain attention? Right? So it's, it's about dignity, it's about gaining attention. It's about informing learners of the objectives, stimulating recall of prior learning, presenting, providing guidance, performance practice. And incorporating the transfer of learning, right, so you when you think about those nine events, those all fit within one, one class, right? That's one class development or one course development. And so then, what is your percentages look like? How long do you spend gaining attention? How long do you spend telling people what the goals are? How long do you spend on feedback? How long do you spend on practice? How long do you spend helping them train For the learning, and then when you go tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. So to me the nine events is like a tick box. It's like a checklist, am I doing these nine things within my course or within my program, and if I am, then you can sit back and assess it. And I use I color coded actually. And I go through the nine events, and I go, I go through my program, each nine event has a color, and I look okay, how much is yellow? Because to me, the yellow part is about providing learning guidance, which is more about lecture, you know, what are we telling them. And so how much of my program is yellow? And if I have a lot of yellow in my program, then I know that I'm talking too much. So then it's about that adjustment. It's about that flex and about that flow. And so that's a practice of mine that I'm sharing with you. So what is it that you are doing that you would like to share with somebody else that's here, so that way, I can stop talking, because you guys don't come to hear me talk, you come to hear each other talk. So what are some of your recommended practices in regards to instructional design models and theories, and how you make sure that you're getting the right things in front of the right people? In the meantime, I'll look at some information for you.
You think now, I know y'all aren't just pulling out a legal pad, and then just saying do this, you certainly have some sort of way in which you are creating your programs. And I don't want you to think that you're going to say something and it's wrong. That's not That's not what I'm looking for. I'm just curious as to how you go about the process.
You know, I know, many people in the group don't really have a consciousness of process, right. So like, I would not have a consciousness of process if I hadn't had some training in it as a as a faculty instructor, right? I did. I walked in, the module was all put together for me, I taught it. And then I was like, Wait, how does this actually work? Because I'm not just lecturing, I got to do other things. And then I had to get some training. And so that's where I learned that backwards model, right. But I work with people who design workshops all the time, and they may think about the objectives at the end. But besides that, there is not a whole lot a format or structure to what they do. And I'm not I'm not criticizing that. I'm not saying they're not good instructors, but I'm just saying, there's an intentionality that I that I'm known for that i i prefer to have informed by people like you who have a lot of expertise in this area. And so
well, thank you for that. And I find that that's, that's not unusual, Kathy.
Yeah. You know, it's very interesting what Chris said, because I'm very familiar in what I've studied, and what I've read about the processes and how things should go. But when it comes to putting them in action, that's why I was very curious to come here and to see who's following the steps. And who is actually, you know, has a has a sound solid process for executing, you know, these these models of instructional design. Because you're right, we talk about them a lot, but, but truly, how good are we putting theory to practice and not saying that we're bad at it? But you know, it sounds like by the crickets in this room, that the people in here don't don't follow it again, not not but you know, it's not bad. It just is I think we're educated people. We just like we like you kind of said maybe we don't follow the formal ADDIE process, we use our bits and pieces and incorporate that in their men, including other you know, learning methods, learning practices, learning styles, whatever, and kind of have our own you know, conglomeration of an instructional design practice.
Well, and that just like we can take an informal survey here because I see Heather, accidental instructional designer, you know, aka CAMI being in her book, right? So if you don't want to wear CAMI been wrote the But the abstract accidental instructional designer, so they're, how many of you fall into that realm? How many of you are so give me put something into the chat for me, how many of you will fall into that instruct accidental instructional designer role?
Okay, so whether you use guadagni in creating training, but over time found it made training really redundant in format. I'm curious as to what you what you mean by that. So if you want to share in the chat, or if you want to come off mic and share your thoughts about why you why you felt it made training redundant, because it's really a guideline. So when you say you need to provide opportunities to allow for practice, then it's up to you to use your creativity to insert the appropriate practice. Right, and it doesn't have to happen in certain order. Really, the as far as the nine events are concerned, it is about starting with gaining attention, you've got to start somewhere. So that's the place to start. And the last place is ensuring the transfer of knowledge at the bottom. So that's number nine. So those are your capstones, if you will, everything else in the middle? It's about where does it work? Right.
Either I see that, yes. We had to create an outline training that follows all the elements in order every single time. Oh, yeah. See, that's that's not how that model is designed to work. And that is, you know, somebody somewhere, thought that it was a good idea. Let's take these nine events and make them steps. That's why they're not called Nine Steps. There are nine events of learning. And so these are the things that should happen within a learning program. You know, but your creativity throughout that is, is really what matters. Although it does make for a great outline process where you can like I like my examples, like you can go through and say, here's what I'm doing for providing feedback, here's what I'm doing to ensure the transfer of knowledge, here's what I'm doing, to ensure that practice takes place. And there are some percentages around that I won't get into that. Now, this is not a workshop about the nine events, you know, but I find it it's a good tool to keep you on track. Right. And so it seems as though some of you are falling into that accidental instructional designer as was myself. Like I said, this was not my educational background. This was all about reading, exploring, experimenting. And for me, the first concept that I landed on was Addie. And that was because I went, I was interviewing to be a training manager. And I went from one position where I was managing training. And they were put me there through an operational role. And then the first job that I actually interviewed for after I left that position at Yati model, fortunately, I knew what Addy stood for. So I was able to bluff my way through that conversation. You know, but that, that, Oh, I probably need to do some more research about this, to find out more about it. And so then, you know, enter another stage of your career, which I think is okay. You know, the thing that we really, that I would encourage us all to get away from is the training project lands on our desk. And then we immediately open up PowerPoint to start creating something. That's that's the habit, I think that needs to be broken. And then rather than thinking about learning objectives at the end of what we do, that's where we need to start. Right. And that's the backwards design that Chris was talking about. You start with the learning objectives in the ADDIE model that's actually in the D phase that's in the design phase. So you've got analysis, design, development, implementation, evaluation analysis is all about the performer analysis, analysis, the performance analysis, the learner analysis, and then you work into once you have everything analyzed, then you work into the design, which is the thinking part of Addie, not the doing part of Addie. So the design is about thinking, what do we want to do? Where do we want to go? What are the objectives? What are the outcomes, and then you move into the development.
I just wanted to share, I think I might actually do some of that I don't think I do those three levels of analysis. But before I'm willing to actually put a workshop together, I'm always trying to understand what are they trying to get out of this themselves? Right. So again, to that backwards design, and one of the things that I I'll just share this for what it's worth, I have that open up the PowerPoint and start going inclination. But what I did to short circuit that, I said, Okay, I had this inclination, I'm not going to, I'm not going to fight it too hard. I use took a page out of Nancy Duarte is Duarte, the communicator, she says, I think in PowerPoint, and I said, Oh, maybe that's actually what happens to me, I think in PowerPoint. So now I now I put the learning objectives on the first slide. And I always put the what's the workshop description at the very front, even if it's a hidden slide, so that way, it constantly reminds me that it's there. And boy, I have to go back to that. So I'll just show that for what it's worth. I
like that. It's like storyboarding, right? It's storyboarding your, your solution. And using PowerPoint as that storyboard, which is I do that too. I start with a white slide, and I just start pulling things, you know, and I just go from there. Yes, there's so I agree. And I think that's the great thing about what we do is that they're really even though we have theories that underpin what we do, as instructional designers, you know, theories like you know, Cognitive Load Theory and behavioral is theory and constructionist theory, and all these different theories that I'm sure in your brain right now you're going, what did she just say? But believe me, we, if you go back and you read about it, you're gonna go Oh, yeah, I knew that. I just didn't know it had a name. Okay, that's, that's the part, you know. And so when you go back and review it, and I'll, I'll put those pieces of information in the resources to for everybody. And it is then it's about really, the main theory that I tried to abide by, is the cognitive load theory, and the cognitive load theory, we all talk about cognitive overload. Right? We all talk about cognitive overload as a bad thing. cognitive overload is a bad thing. But there are other different cognitive loads, which can be good, that we want to strive for. Right? So we want to actually in our learning designs, what we want to strive for is that germane cognitive load, which is where people are actually able to understand the material, they're able to process the material, and then they're able to do something with it. And that means that our brains are working in our favor. So we've got germane cognitive load going on. And that's what we want to strive for. You know, so this is, so there are some theories out there, which I like I said, I know that you guys are going through, you just don't have the vocabulary to support it. And that's okay. That's okay. You know, so that's not the that's not the I'm not here for the gotcha. I'm here for the you know, let's let's give you let's get the words out, even though I'd seem to be struggling today to get the words out. And I think this is also the fun bit. So hopefully you guys read my, my last blog post about instructional design still alive and kicking is that it's, it's the fun bit. And I'll back up a little bit of history there. That blog post was the jumping off point for a blog post that I wrote a number of years ago, that said, instructional design is not dead. And that's because every year every couple of years, there's always something that's happening on LinkedIn or online that is announcing the demise of instructional design. And I get really frustrated with that. You know, and it's not because instructional design is not going to die. The way we know it. The way we use it today is going to change. It's not going to die. It's going to change. It's the same thing back in the 50s, the 60s and 70s, the 80s it evolves and it can continue to progress. And what we need to do is to enjoy the stage it's in right now. A creative, be innovative, use experimentation to help build the learning solutions that are appropriate for what whoever your audience is. But to do that, we do have to have some mental grasp of what what is the foundation that we need to be jumping off of? Right. Millennials killed instructional design. What was it without Radiohead? Video Killed the Radio Star. Yeah. So now we're all going to have that ear worm.
So what does that mean? I'm wondering what is it that in Millennials have done or they're known for doing that would?
Oh, I think that that was sarcasm, just sarcasm. I see the winky face.
Well, I just see the winky face. But I didn't know if there was something there. I do think that we've had to do a lot about adapting, as younger people have come into the workplace, and are not accepting of the long lecture formats there. That is true. And the university as well, right, the Institute where I work, so that's why I was thinking, Oh, is that? Is that what she's referring to?
No, now there is a let me find it for you.
Just to while you're looking for that, just to respond to Kathy there. Um, I think it's not just about like people not wanting to sit through in long forum. But a lot of places aren't allowing people the time that they need to take the longer form courses and absorb the information. And there's a lot of cultures out there where training is seen as kind of a checkbox activity where you have to get through it, you have to survive it, and then you can get down to actually learning what you're supposed to be doing. Yep.
Exactly. Exactly. You're, you're you're not incorrect with that. And, and especially now, when we've got AI, which is both, you know, good news and bad news for what we do, you know, where there's a lot of shortcuts being taken, and a lot of businesses think that AI is going to be the ultimate shortcut in, you know, delivering training or whatever it is that we do. I think it's about understanding what is happening around us, and how are we responding to that. And to your point, you know, which is why I started all all of my work back in 2018, about the whole micro learning concept. So I was working in that space before it became sexy to work in that space. And, and it was through research of determining, it's not about attention span, per se. It's about interest. You know, so and some of you may have heard me say this before, is we've all we've all binge watched something, Netflix, or what have you, you know, so you've, you've been watched, Breaking Bad, or, you know, white lotus, or whatever series is, is fun for you. Or, you know, maybe you went through the whole previous season of Top Chef now that the new ones out right now, right. So it's not that we don't have the attention span, we can we'll spend nine hours binge watching Breaking Bad. That's interesting. That's fun. That's something we want to do. Now, then the say people's attention spans will only allow us for five minutes worth of video or 20 minutes worth of learning is, is again, a myth. People will pay attention to the things that they're interested in. So therefore, we must make it interesting. And that's where sometimes we dropped the ball. And then you've got a bunch of business leaders out there who have experienced really bad, really boring training, and then they come back to you and they say, this is way too long. Because in their brains, they're remembering what they have experienced. They're remembering what they have seen. And so now, rather than thinking about making it effective, they're thinking about making it short.
On that, that same thing, Shannon, where I work, everybody's time is billable. There you go. That too, so the shorter the better because better I spend, they charge the client and get paid then do training for you know, an hour to actually develop a skill. Yep,
I completely agree with that. You're right. That's a whole other aspect of why to keep it short, beyond the philosophical, but
also to what you said, they're so used to, you know, this is what we've seen before we know it's, you know, not it doesn't engage people, it's just boring. Well, our job, I think, then is to show, okay, let's make it more engaging. Alright. And we can do this and not just be somebody talking over a slide. And then you click next, somebody's talking over slide new, click Next.
I think sometimes if we just if we build something per the requirements per the request, you know, that click next program, but then, then we do take some time. And I know that that's, you know, kind of out there for me to ask is what would happen if you created the same program doing something different, and something intriguing and innovative, and then presented them both. And so these are going to take the same amount of time. Same amount of time to take this one's 13 minutes, this one's 13 minutes. But this is how it's been developed. Or maybe this one's 13 minutes, and maybe this one's 13.5. Right. And so here you go. Tell me which one you would rather be a part of which one did you learn the most from? And let's go with that. Right. And that's hard to do. Because everybody's got deadlines, everybody's got, you know, things that are on the back burners and things that need to do have been done yesterday. But it might be worth an experiment for you to try. You know, just to see what just to see what the response today is. Let's see whether even today people think in house training is going to be death by PowerPoint. Absolutely. Although my opinion about death by PowerPoint is that we seem to forget, death by PowerPoint is our fault. Oh, there's a human behind that bad PowerPoint design. It's you maybe not you use specifically but us as humans, people are were baffled that I actually
like PowerPoint, because I know some of the things you can do in PowerPoint that most people are completely unaware of.
Makes I completely agree with you. I am a PowerPoint lover. Until Canva came around, I was creating all of my handouts, all of my job aids, everything was created in PowerPoint, because it's just the easiest tool to use with the most options. Now I've switched over to Canvas on my PowerPoint and sitting there in a corner going, why have you forsaken me?
I look stuff up on Canva and then recreate it in PowerPoint. There you go.
Yeah, don't just try to do something besides the standardized PowerPoint slides for exact groups. Yeah, exactly. And move beyond bullet points. That's a whole other thing. You know, we don't need to do bullet points. I don't I'm not advocating paragraphs of text either. I'm just saying, you can do something more interesting as far as visualization is concerned, rather than bullets, you know, and that that also takes us to, you know, some instructional design knowledge. When we think about visual design, that's also an area of instructional design that gets really left behind is what are we doing from a visual graphic design perspective. That's not what this call is about. We've had that call in the past, you know, but that's all part and parcel of instructional design is learning about typography, color theory, graphics, you know, so if you are indeed the designer who is creating the program is creating the handout, the deck, the elearning, the workbook, those things become important. Right? Yep, definitely. Yeah. You have to know your audience, for sure. So now we're thinking about other design models. Let me get back to where I was here. Because I got sidetracked. There we go. My List, my list of models, some that I do have a list of models, sometimes I've never used before. And some that I always keep on my desk and one of those that I always keep handy. It's not really an instructional design model, more of an evaluative model, of course, is the Kirkpatrick model levels one through four, you know, so when you think about instructional design, you think about the evaluation part of Addie. And also I would ask you to think about adding in a different way. So think about Addie. as being circular, Addy sometimes gets a bad reputation because they people use it in a linear process. But actually, it can be very adaptive if you make it so. And I like to think of it as a circle, a D, D, i e, and that e inadi stands for evaluation. And that evaluation is for the Kirkpatrick model. If you use that, or whatever evaluative model that you might use, that's to evaluate whether or not the training was successful. But there's the other e that I think goes in the middle. And that E is also for evaluation. Or it could be an R could be like stands for review. Right? So add er, so that R goes in the center. And what that means is that we are reviewing each layer of the instructional design process as it moves forward. So we're going to we if we follow Addie, for example, if we do our analysis, and it doesn't have to be a deep analysis, this is the other thing that people get wrong about Addie, it doesn't have to be that six month evaluative process, it could be a week, it could be a couple of days, however, it is that you're deciding this is the right thing for my audience. So once you do that analysis, then you review that analysis to make sure you're on the right track. And then you might want to give that analysis to your stakeholder to make sure that they agree with your findings. Because I don't know how many of you have been to that point of getting to where you've designed an elearning program, or an in real life virtual type program, only for somebody somewhere to say, hey, wait, what is that. And then you got to start all the way back at the beginning. And that sucks. Because that's time wasted for everybody. So then if you put in that review process into every stage, then I guarantee once you get down to that part where you're actually developing materials, you won't have to backtrack. But you have to be sure that you're getting that, in that review cycle. Everyone who has veto power,
you have to make sure that they actually review we did it. I had that happen last year. We'd give them the stock today. So here's what what we're thinking, here's what's going to happen. Here's how we're planning it out. Yeah, it looks great. Like, this is way too long and more than I wanted.
Yep. Yep.
They came down like a two minute explainer video.
Which is great, but not with that's not what you thought the project was no, but not after four months of work. Right? Exactly. And it's just terrible. It's a terrible feeling. It's a terrible feeling. And this is why, you know, it's sometimes it's hard you want you need people to read it. And a lot of times I used to put in silence is acquiescence. Right? So it's like, if I don't hear from you, I'm going to assume this is all good. Right? And then you keep people informed on the progress. But then it's also about letting them know about the consequences is, we need this program out in two weeks, it's important that you read all of this as we're going along, otherwise, we're going to miss that deadline. And they're like, well, a lot of times people will say, Well, you know, that's my job. My job is to make those deadlines. And it's like, yeah, yeah, but their job is also to help you through it. And you got to start working together as a team is building that relationship. Now, sometimes you don't have the support around you. You know, I realized that's coming from a rose colored glasses point of view. But you it's about building that up. And you can build that up. It just takes time. I'm jumping ahead to the end. And jumping ahead to the happy ending. You know, but I've certainly been in those positions where I had forces against me and it was just about proof was about data and proof. You know, and baby steps talking in their language, etc. Right? And thank you, Heather, for putting the book in there about leaving Addy for Sam. And, again, for me, it's all about what do you what's going to work for you? And when it comes to models like Sam, there's also let's see, there's there's arc, which is attention, relevance, attention, relevance. Building confidence. There's an S in there at the end, and I can't remember what it is. Satisfaction, I think. So there's there's arcs. There's the six D model. There's all of these different models. Dick and Clark, right, Dick and Carey, I'm sorry, Dick and Carey model. So there's all of these different models. To me, they're all underpinned by the ADDIE model. So even if you move to Sam, the succession Approximation Model, even if you use Sam, you are still at some point, you who are still analyzing whether or not what you're putting together is what the stakeholder wants and needs. You still have to design something, you still have the right learning objectives. You still have to develop something, there's still something there that has to be made. You still have to implement that something. And you still have to evaluate that something. Right? So regardless of the model that you use, now, Addy is secretly hiding within the folds of that model. So just keep that in mind. So it behooves you to really understand what ADDIE is all about. So that you can use the model that you want to use and the model that works best for your organization. Does that make sense? Yeah. Okay. So now, where are you at? What What are your I? I've talked a lot today, and this is probably the most I've ever talked on a chat. But hopefully you found this helpful. What What are your thoughts right now? What questions do you have right now?
I have a question that I've been hanging on to for a little bit. So Heather Carney earlier in the chat said, you know, Addie is outdated. And we're moving more toward an Agile Model. So for Heather, and maybe some others, if you think that you're using an agile development model, what makes it agile? Like, what like, how far do you get like, if you kind of use the ADDIE model? Shannon has to kind of what you're saying earlier, you kind of you still iterate with within an ADDIE model. What do you do that you would define it as that makes it agile? Like at what points? Are you checking back with the stakeholders or with the subject matter experts or whatever that you define your processes agile?
Is great question. Answer someone.
I can say for me, working in an agile environment, I was considered a functional accelerator on an agile pod. So a technology team developing software. And you know, they worked in two weeks sprints. So I worked in two week sprints, and we came up with deliverables that could be accomplished within that timeframe. And the big learning curve for me in that was that they do not expect perfection. If it's if something is perfect, you spent too much time on it. It's more about making sure that you get something out there to have feedback from to get feedback from first. And so you continue to evolve your product as they continue. You're learning you're training as they evolved their product. And at the end, you had a you know, finished product, or you might have finished modules as you go forward. But first time somebody sees something, you're looking for feedback and you iterate as you go through it. So perfection is not the goal. It's its iteration.
Thank you for that. Absolutely. Agile comes from project management. Addie could also be a project management tools. But agile comes from project management in which she and what Annette just mentioned, you know, things like scrums. You know, where you're meeting every week, every couple of days. And you are rapidly talking about what's working, what's not working? How can we help you, and then you break and go and continue working. Right. And so when you think from an agile perspective, that works very quickly, and it also, it also really emphasizes as as an IT said, the need to work through failure. It's okay, if it doesn't work. It's okay if it's not perfect, right. And it is about starting small and then working towards what you want to achieve. Although there is something that has to underpin that, what it what is it? And from a project management perspective, it's what is your project, right. So what's your project? Are you building software? So then there there's a software design, UI UX theory that you're trying to abide by? Same thing with instructional design. So if you're going to use an Agile Model, you still have to know what's going to underpin that in order to keep you moving forward. So then once again, we are, I see a lot of times where Sam and agile are combined together, which, which makes a good marriage, you know, so then you're able to really do the things that you need to do in a in an agile and on the fly kind of way. Yeah, so it's about then understanding those models, and then making them work for you again, and within your workplace. Although agile really depends on having a team, you know, so you have to have a team that's going to help you build and move forward unless you're creating that team around like a steering committee, for example. But even if you commit, if even if you create a steering committee, you are still the only one doing the work. So then if you're the only one doing the work, you can be as agile as you want to be. You know, so then, again, it's about working through what it is you need to accomplish. Let's see what have we got here? From feedback, received observations improve training in a fast paced world better than Addy did never got Addy formatted projects launch because they changed too much during the lengthy process. And I think, Heather, that's a great point. And I think if you were to go back and look at Addy, from a perspective, in the past, that would be true, because some people were very set on, you have to do a and then you do D, and then you do D until it's all you know, you have to do a until it's beat, breathed his last breath. And then and only then do you move on to the development stage. And I think that is was good back then it certainly doesn't work now. And so a lot of those depths can be worked concurrently. One feeds into the other. Right, and one can help propel the other forward. So again, these models are just models. You know, there's a reason why Legos puts out here's your kid to build a castle. Or here's your box of Lego. Do what you want. Right? So the same applies here. Do you need a kit? To help you build your learning solution castle? Or do you just want a box of bricks, so that way you can build the way that you want to build? Or maybe it's it's give me my bots plays for the castle, but I'll use the directions the way that I want to use the directions. Instructional design works a lot in the same way. Let's see. Yes, it is painful in a corporate world. I agree. I've been there. I've done that. I have many T shirts. But just recently, I went to Goodwill. Get that all off my back. All right, so here we are, we are about at the top of the hour. And I was going to put this let me put this into the chat for you guys, which is about a little bit of information about agile there. And we'll we'll get all of these resources to you the the video and everything else that you're used to. Don't forget now this is a great conversation to have about our Learn something new, which is coming up about learning measurement. And that's with that's coming up with this coming up with Kevin Gates where he did the he did the last one with us, which was about the l&d Detective, he's doing another follow up one, which I think that you guys would find really beneficial. So if you are stuck here, and you're like, well, all of this instructional design just kind of blows my mind. Don't forget that learning evaluation in the front end, and in the back end is really what's going to make your solutions excuse me, it's really going to make your solutions work. It's going to make them have meaning and it's going to make them more effective. And the way that Kevin brings this to you is that it's working through a scenario where you are actually the detective trying to figure out what's going to work, what's not going to work, what measurements should we be using? What What options do we have in front of us if we don't have those measurements to use? And so he's going to help drive you through this scenario to make sure that you're getting you know your data from the right places and that you're getting the right data and using it for the right thing. So I think this learn something new will be beneficial to all of you. So I encourage you to sign up and take part in that So here we are. It's a weekend and it's looks like it's going to be a nice weekend. I'm so happy spring is here. It's not going to be a nice weekend where you are Justin, where it was going to be
getting rain all weekend. Oh, no, it was ugly. It's great and crappy right now.
Oh, no. Ah. That's too bad. I'm sorry to hear that.
So that California it's supposed to be beautiful.
Oh, I don't know about that. Yeah, it is supposed to be beautiful. But I think we had this discussion there. You know, when I lived in California, you had what was it four seasons you had? You had rain fire, rain, fire heat and mudslide. So you had heat? Yeah. hot season. Fire Season. rain season. mudslide season? Yes. All of those that's not unlike here right. The we have winter in construction. And those are the two seasons we have here.
Now we get we get summer now to this trough. In two days. Let's get up to balance the crank it up to balance the cold cold winters.
That is true. That's true. And now I don't know about cold cold winters anymore. The last couple of winters. I guess I should knock on wood and shouldn't jinx us. But I've not been that bad.
We had the kids off school, at least one day because of the incredibly cold temperatures. This winter. We
had one week of that when we go below zero temperatures. And yeah, the kids didn't go to school. Yeah. Well, I'm guessing ourselves to you. So yeah. Yeah. That's the funny thing. Jason. They don't care if it snows. 10 feet but you but we can't have the kids out in zero degree weather, which I agree with standing at the bus stops No. Yeah, with their poor little things freezing to death, kind of like the I always picture the Christmas story. You know that scene where the little one is in his bagel? That's us. That's not That's not untrue. It's
the junior high school kids and the high school kids who wear shorts and sweatshirts all year. Yes.
Yes. How defiant right?
The last time it snowed, I literally saw kids at my daughter's school in sweatshirts, shorts and flip flops.