S1:E2 - Unpacking Cognitive Dissonance in Ourselves and Our Systems

Asmara Kazmi1h 7min

Asmara Kazmi

00:00

To wake up and join the party and it looks like yeah, we are ready to go. So, we are transcribing everyone who is joining us live. Thank you so much once again. So, what we are, we are gathered here today to talk about cognitive dissonance, which is holding two or more contradictory thoughts or beliefs simultaneously. It is firmly in the category of what I have described as a fundamental human occupational hazard. Because we are not, by definition, aware of the gaps in our thoughts and in our understanding. So, what that leads to is because those gaps are outside our level of awareness. They get bridged by these inconsistencies, if you will, in how we approach things, how we think about things. And of course, that has a profound impact on how that shows up in our actions. So, of course, that's on an individual level, but it's not all about individuals. Is it Sharon? It has profound impacts on how it shows up in society as well, doesn't it?

Sharon Hurley Hall

01:21

It does, it does. Absolutely. Asmara. I think there's definitely I would say that as a black person, you often experience cognitive dissonance and people who come into your contact with you also experienced cognitive dissonance. And I think here about Frantz Fanon and his reference to double consciousness, that idea of simultaneously, moving through the world as yourself and knowing how you are seen. And I think that definitely causes moments of cognitive dissonance.

Asmara Kazmi

01:58

Yeah, and I think it's really interesting because we think of this big you know, hairy topic, and we think that it's something that is just with adults to contend with and unpack but the truth is, it starts really young and I want to really highlight this passage from your book, I'm tired of Racism, where you know, you were reflecting on plasters and what that experience is like. And first of all, these are things that white folks do not even have to think about right because the things that no experience are created with them in mind, usually. So one thing that I really was so powerful in your book, first of all, folks, if you haven't read this book, please go out and buy it and read it and sit with it and sit with yourselves. But one thing that really was germane to this particular conversation was you mentioned in there, "though I didn't label it as such then the realisation that my skin wasn't seen as, quote unquote, skin led to moments of cognitive dissonance". So could you talk to us a little bit about what that experience was like?

Sharon Hurley Hall

03:21

Yeah, it's, you know, it's really it's really interesting, and I think it happens to a lot of black kids, a lot of brown kids, a lot of global majority kids, that you realise that you are somehow outside the norm. Now, I grew up in a for the most part in a black majority country. I was born in England, but I grew up in the Caribbean. And you know, I remember that you know, when you had to go and get a band aid, the colour that was marked as skin did not look like my skin and that was an experience that I continue to have throughout my life. Now, you know, as a young kid, you know, 5-6-7-8 I did not have the terminology to describe that as cognitive dissonance. But yet, there was something jarring in the realisation that the skin in which I moved through the world was not seen as skin by the people that were producing these products. And you know, similarly, when you buy flesh coloured tights, they're not the colour of my skin, not the colour of my flesh. You know? That applies to so, so many products. And so yes, it's very odd that realisation that who you are, is not seen as part of the norm. And and so you have to cope with that realisation in some way. And, you know, it produces a welter of emotions, I think, you know, sadness, confusion, bewilderment. I mean, you name it, right? Yeah, and I'm sure I'm not the only one that this has happened to.

Asmara Kazmi

05:05

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I had a very similar experience with uh, you know, the, the flesh coloured crayon from from those Crayola boxes. Yeah, that was no that that really wasn't it. And I think I was probably in my late teens before Crayola came out with that, you know, that box of crayons that was a all flesh coloured for lack of a better descriptor and it's it's incredible. The kind of emotions that being almost dehumanised in that in that way.

Sharon Hurley Hall

05:05

And excluded?

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