S1:E2 - Unpacking Cognitive Dissonance in Ourselves and Our Systems

4:17PM May 10, 2023

Speakers:

Sharon Hurley Hall

Stacy Casson

Asmara Kazmi

LisaRose

Jahmaal Marshall

Kara Smith

Yinka Ewuola

Aya Egbuho

Crystle Johnson

Keywords:

cognitive dissonance

people

absolutely

sharon

work

idea

dissonance

experience

colour

talk

conversation

impact

space

moments

majority

systems

folks

skin

equality

cope

To wake up and join the party and it looks like yeah, we are ready to go. So, we are transcribing everyone who is joining us live. Thank you so much once again. So, what we are, we are gathered here today to talk about cognitive dissonance, which is holding two or more contradictory thoughts or beliefs simultaneously. It is firmly in the category of what I have described as a fundamental human occupational hazard. Because we are not, by definition, aware of the gaps in our thoughts and in our understanding. So, what that leads to is because those gaps are outside our level of awareness. They get bridged by these inconsistencies, if you will, in how we approach things, how we think about things. And of course, that has a profound impact on how that shows up in our actions. So, of course, that's on an individual level, but it's not all about individuals. Is it Sharon? It has profound impacts on how it shows up in society as well, doesn't it?

It does, it does. Absolutely. Asmara. I think there's definitely I would say that as a black person, you often experience cognitive dissonance and people who come into your contact with you also experienced cognitive dissonance. And I think here about Frantz Fanon and his reference to double consciousness, that idea of simultaneously, moving through the world as yourself and knowing how you are seen. And I think that definitely causes moments of cognitive dissonance.

Yeah, and I think it's really interesting because we think of this big you know, hairy topic, and we think that it's something that is just with adults to contend with and unpack but the truth is, it starts really young and I want to really highlight this passage from your book, I'm tired of Racism, where you know, you were reflecting on plasters and what that experience is like. And first of all, these are things that white folks do not even have to think about right because the things that no experience are created with them in mind, usually. So one thing that I really was so powerful in your book, first of all, folks, if you haven't read this book, please go out and buy it and read it and sit with it and sit with yourselves. But one thing that really was germane to this particular conversation was you mentioned in there, "though I didn't label it as such then the realisation that my skin wasn't seen as, quote unquote, skin led to moments of cognitive dissonance". So could you talk to us a little bit about what that experience was like?

Yeah, it's, you know, it's really it's really interesting, and I think it happens to a lot of black kids, a lot of brown kids, a lot of global majority kids, that you realise that you are somehow outside the norm. Now, I grew up in a for the most part in a black majority country. I was born in England, but I grew up in the Caribbean. And you know, I remember that you know, when you had to go and get a band aid, the colour that was marked as skin did not look like my skin and that was an experience that I continue to have throughout my life. Now, you know, as a young kid, you know, 5-6-7-8 I did not have the terminology to describe that as cognitive dissonance. But yet, there was something jarring in the realisation that the skin in which I moved through the world was not seen as skin by the people that were producing these products. And you know, similarly, when you buy flesh coloured tights, they're not the colour of my skin, not the colour of my flesh. You know? That applies to so, so many products. And so yes, it's very odd that realisation that who you are, is not seen as part of the norm. And and so you have to cope with that realisation in some way. And, you know, it produces a welter of emotions, I think, you know, sadness, confusion, bewilderment. I mean, you name it, right? Yeah, and I'm sure I'm not the only one that this has happened to.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I had a very similar experience with uh, you know, the, the flesh coloured crayon from from those Crayola boxes. Yeah, that was no that that really wasn't it. And I think I was probably in my late teens before Crayola came out with that, you know, that box of crayons that was a all flesh coloured for lack of a better descriptor and it's it's incredible. The kind of emotions that being almost dehumanised in that in that way.

And excluded?

Yeah, absolutely, and excluded. And I think the most powerful learning for me even as a kid was realising that um, yeah, when when people say things about, oh, this is how it generally is, or this is how it you know, insert generalisation here that those didn't apply to me. And that will at once disheartened by

the crayons. And, you know, I could not ever colour people in a way that made sense to me when I was a kid. You know, it's like, it's like the Brown was too brown and the flesh was not my flesh. Right? And so I think it takes a long time to get to the point where you feel liberated by being left out. Because, you know, for a long time, I think you'll just feel you feel excluded. You feel like okay, I'm clearly not a part of this. How am I going to bridge that? Gap mentally and emotionally? And it's not an easy thing to do, I think.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And you know, that's lived experience and then when we when we move into talking about how it shows up in our work, for instance, I mean, you are very actively spearheading anti-racism education, it shows up in your work very heavily. What does that like for you in your facilitation spaces watching people grapple with and cope with the cognitive dissonance that they've been carrying around?

That is that is really, really interesting. And you know, it can be very powerful with people who are open to accepting that. There are other worldviews besides the one that they have grown up with. You know, I remember in one of our sessions, we talked about the concept of taking up space as a black person. And the fact that you could, I could, whether they were let me let me let me bring it down to my own experience, right. I am five foot 10. I am dark skinned, right. It's like I'm you would think that I would be visible, but the number of spaces in which white folks barge past me as if I don't exist. It's really it's really quite amazing. And so it's, it's, again, that thing is like you're visible, but you're not seen at the same time. And so I was relating this experience, I think, several as I suppose, to people within a facilitation space, and you could almost see the wheels turning, because this was something they had never had to think about. This idea of you know, who who takes up space who stands their ground who moves aside? Right, and that was definitely a very powerful moment of cognitive dissonance that made people decide, okay, I'm going to make an effort to be aware of this, to be aware of my complicity in this to try to change how I show up and the space that I create for others to take up space.

Yeah, Abso-freaking-lutely. If you could see me clapping right now I absolutely yes, imagine I am. But I think that one thing that that that also brings up for me is this conversation that we're always having around impact versus intention. Right and when we intend something and the impact that it has is totally not the thing and I mean, take any experience on an average week in LinkedIn to see what that looks like. And people get really defensive, and they make it all about their intention, rather than the impact because that I think exacerbates their own cognitive dissonance because on one hand, they're trying to, you know, put themselves forward as a kind of person who is very aware who is doing the work and things like that and then when they make mistakes, it creates this this this discomfort around uh, oh, shit, like maybe I don't actually know and then they just double down and I find that that is one of the most common ways that people cope with cognitive dissonance is rather than putting, you know the gas like putting their foot on the gas, well, rather than putting their foot on the brake, they put it on the gas. You know, and they just get deeper in to that and have you found that with you know, substack and all the other spaces you're in as well?

Oh, yes. Oh, yes. It's really it's really very interesting. Because I think in a way, I think when you do this work, whether it's personal work or whether you're doing it with other people, or facilitating it for other people, you have to... it's ideal, to listen to understand and to come at it from a perspective that you may not actually know everything, right. And so, um, so, if you approach it from that perspective, I think it minimises cognitive dissonance. Whereas if you steam ahead thinking, I know what I'm doing in all cases, and my intent matters, then when you're brought up short by, by the reality of the impact that you may have had on someone, then it's harder for you to cope with it because it goes against your idea of yourself. But if you start out knowing and thinking well, okay, I may not know everything here. I may not know everything here, then you're not putting yourself on a pedestal and having to knock yourself off it. I mean, (Yeah). Yeah, and then when, you know, when it comes to these online spaces, like a window, the reason some stack experience I had was, was really, really well it was a lot of things but let's just let's just encapsulate that under the term. Interesting. (Euphemism of the century!) Yes. Very, very British euphemism. Right. Yeah. It was very interesting that there are so many people that are more concerned with holding fast to their idea of what should be permitted than recognising the impact. It's another it's another thing in terms of impact, the impact that this might be having on someone and the harm that this might be doing to someone. And yeah, it was it was it was a very difficult experience. It has calmed down a little bit. But it can sometimes be difficult to get people to see, to lead people to see, to have them walk through the door that you have opened to address that gap in their in their vision or awareness or under standing. And again, I you know, I really try not to approach it from the point of view that I know it all because I don't I don't know everything about everything. But some people are so upset by the idea that they may not be able to steam through the world doing exactly as they please with no consequences at all, even if they are doing harm to deliberately disadvantaged or minoritized people that they cannot cope with any opinion that runs counter to this and they lash out. And you know, that is something that I think people do when experiencing cognitive dissonance. As you as you said, Asmara, they double down on they put their foot on the gas rather than putting it on the brake and thinking Hey, hang on. Maybe I should think about this a bit.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that that's also one of the reasons why. Yes, cognitive dissonance can be a huge hindrance in the in how you experience your quality of life and how you show up for your fellow human being but the reason I call it a disruptor is because believe it or not, there is some utility to it too. It can be a mutation, to curiosity, to humility, to understanding because that discomfort that you're feeling in yourself through that cognitive dissonance is giving you a message and the message it's giving is: shut up and listen. (I love that). Absolutely. Well, I'm glad to hear you do and the thing is, and sometimes it can be shut up and listen to yourself. I acknowledge the things that are incongruous in your own mind. So for example, you know, I have people come to me all the time who say, Oh, you know, I'm very all or nothing. I'm either all in or I'm all out and to them. I say well, you do realise that the expected value of all or nothing is far more likely to be closer to nothing then all because all very energy intensive all takes a lot from you asks a lot from you. So if you're waiting on all or nothing to take you where you need to go, honey, you ain't going nowhere fast. Okay, and. And, yeah, yeah, please go ahead.

No, no, I you know, I'm relating. I'm actually relating that to, to anti racism work again. Because there are some people that believe that if they're not doing it, so called "right" or they make a mistake, then it's time to back away altogether. Because, you know, because of that moment of cognitive dissonance, this idea that they're not, you know, who they thought they were, whereas my, my attitude is, do something rather than nothing. Accept that you might occasionally get it wrong. When you do get it wrong, apologise, repair the harm, and keep going because it's something that we have to keep working on. And so we can use those moments of cognitive dissonance as catalysts for growing our awareness and moving to acting in a different way. You know, sometimes you hear something and it makes you think about something completely differently. But I think as you say, that's potentially very powerful. It's not always a bad thing.

Yeah, absolutely. It's, it's, it's all what you do with it. You know, you can double down on it and you can use that to cause harm to continue to disenfranchise and intentionally marginalise people of the global majority just because you know, your your racist grandpa told you that you are God's gift to Earth. And nobody else is. And or, you can join spaces like the Anti-Racist Leaders Association, read Black papers as mission accom equality puts out and educate yourself and educate yourself in a way that doesn't create unpaid labour for the global majority is a rather important thing too, right?

Yes, yes, I'm actually I'm glad you mentioned you mentioned the black paper that Michelle equality put out because one of the things that we say in there is the question that we often ask, you know, inside Mission Equality is what if, what if we did it differently? And, you know, cognitive moments of cognitive dissonance, I think invite us to think differently. About everything about all the systems and processes that we're in meshed in and think about how we could make things different or better or change them. You know, I think it's an invitation. I think it's an opportunity.

Yeah, absolutely. So how have you accepted that invitation for yourself and in your work?

That is, that is actually it's funny. You should say that because I've had many, many moments. of cognitive dissonance in this work. Firstly, the one of the earliest ones was when someone referred to me as an activist and I was there just doing my thing, you know, I was there writing my articles and put it on my newsletter and I thought, wait, wait, wait, is that who I am? It's not who I become. It's not what I'm doing. And you know, then you think, Okay, here's the work that I'm doing. You know, here's, here's how I think about these things. So Okay, I accept that I accept that as another another aspect of who Sharon is, but also in in writing things like the newsletter in in writing the book in doing the work at Mission Equality. There are many moments when you think, Okay, what does this what does this experience mean? How can it how can it be a catalyst for for for others? How can it how can you how can you transmute this experience that was that was painful and difficult into something that creates positive action? So I suppose that's one way of thinking about it.

Yeah. And I think that you know, your reflection about how it how does this add to or supplement the existing facets of Sharon is a really powerful reflection because I think that you know, especially with all of these conversations around authenticity, right, and what do we think that actually means and what does it get to mean for us? And thinking in that way, gets, it lets us invite ourselves to understand that we contain multitudes, and that we get to honour them, that we get to grow the things that service and we get to correct the things that don't. For me, (Absolutely!). Yeah. And for me, personally, I think the biggest shift for me came was I was in a coaching call once upon a time and my coach at the time, Dana Pharant, she's awesome, by the way, she is an ex dominatrix and there were very, very specific reasons why I had enlisted her help but one of the things that we were speaking about was, she invited me to consider Is it mine? You know, when when assessing my the thoughts, I had the mental models I had, because how many things are we socialised into, through the systems we inhabit through the people that we come across? Because as we've established, cognitive dissonance is equal parts of reaction and an action. (Yes!) It is an action that you experience in yourself and it's also a reaction that other people have to you. And because we're absolutely systems living in this entangled mess of systems like constantly pushing and pulling on each other, I think that discernment around where do our mental models come from? And are they aligned with our values and also our our values sound? Because look at the MAGA crowd, you know? Like they have values..but are they good? Well, I don't want to say good, are they productive and useful values? I would reckon most of the people sitting in this room right now would would conjecture to say absolutely not, you know, um, so, yeah...

I'm glad you brought that I brought that you brought those folks up because because definitely some of the things they raise and say lead to moments of severe cognitive dissonance. It's like how could anybody believe things that some of those folks believe? And then and so and so then that leads you to thinking okay, so, because one of the things that I think about if I'm not going to reach those folks directly, they're not listening to me. But are there people in their lives that they might listen to that I can reach? And get those people to shift their attitudes and then reach some of those people? And I feel that that is some of where some of where the work is, and I love what you said, Asmara, about containing multitudes because on our view of ourselves, of ourselves, doesn't have to be static. It doesn't have to be fixed, based on the systems that we grew up with, on the processes on the ideas of ourselves. We can we can change, we can adapt, we can bring new areas of knowledge into being, we can think about ourselves differently. I had I had another realisation just a couple of days ago that what used to be my main gig has now become my side gig. Because I I worked as a writer for decades and as a freelance writer for either about 1516 years. And even though I still write, that is not the main thing that I do anymore, you know, and...it shook me for a second and then I said, but actually this is good, because this is where I wanted to be. What I'm doing now feels like the right thing to be doing. So yeah, we have to be open I think.

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, in true-me-fashion, I'm gonna bust out a doctor who quote right now, I'm Matt Smith. The 11th Doctor, you know, when he was regenerating, which by the way for the uninitiated, every couple of seasons, the main character of the Doctor regenerates, they change their whole body, their whole vibe, just everything about them and I think that that is a really powerful parallel that even us mere mortals can learn from. But one really great thing that he said in his regeneration speech was "We're all different people throughout life if you think about it, and that's okay, you gotta keep going. As long as you don't forget who you used to be". And I think that that is just a really beautiful thought. You know that you can do justice to the change as you learn more, as you incorporate more information and more nuanced understanding. That you can do that and then you can also hold space you know, for for young Sharon who was looking for plasters that that fit her skin tone or young Asmara that was absolutely cursing out the crayon box and literally nobody surprised by that. And one thing that I really picked up on that you were mentioning earlier, you know when we were talking about the MAGA crowd, and you mentioned you know, like, you look at some of the things that they say and they think and you wonder, like, how can somebody think that? And I was watching this video that that somebody shared the other day and there was this guy who was just really going to town on this idea that oh, yeah, media is brainwashing and nothing is actually as it seems, and we've been lied to. And all I could think was: he's right, but not in the way he thinks he is.

Yeah, yeah, you're right in a sense that you know, we build up all these these pictures of ourselves of each other the world, based on the inputs that we have. And, you know, those inputs can come from a number of places. I mean, it's not just the media, it's you know, it's our parents. It's the world around us. It's very subtle and unspoken things that lead to this picture, which actually brings us full circle to where we started with the you know, with the plasters because a lot of those a lot of what we learn about the world tells us that people that are walking in the kind of skin that we're in, are not welcome or accepted or thought of or part of the norm, even though we are people of the global majority. So you know, make that make sense.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, oh my goodness, somehow we've managed to you know, really talk about all these incredible nuances for the past 30 minutes nonstop and I'm sure we could keep going but I would love to hear from our, our lovely audience as well. So if anybody would like to chime in, offer a reflection, ask a question, you are absolutely more than welcome to. And my great friend Jahmaal is going to join us first How are you my brother?

What's up? Can you hear me, Asmara?

Yes. Loud and clear friend how you doing?

I'm doing well. It's just good to hear this conversation between you and Sharon. It's really appreciate you both sharing your stories and your backgrounds and how was thinking about cognitive dissonance. I don't know from the the mode of movements that we've seen throughout you know, human history and I don't know you know, for me, you know, I love to peer beneath the surface and really, really go deep. And I was just thinking about it. You guys were talking just kind of dissonance in the social justice movement, and what it's been in this country even since let's just say most people will remember like the 60s because that's been the most prominent era of what we kind of see today but even beforehand, and I think like when movements like I think what MLK like what he really was trying to do, you know, he said that part of his dream had become a nightmare. And because of what he was fighting for, he was not only fighting for diversity and inclusion, but also fighting for equity. And not really seeing that equity take place. And I think you know me, I really try to I'm not from any political party, you know, liberal or conservative, I'm just a human having a human experience. But I think when him seeing when there was inclusion, you know, where there was those, those bars kind of came down there being most you know, liberal whites, sort of not being pleased with the fact that Blacks were now coming into neighbourhoods, integrating schools and then them taking flight. And so I think about the dissonance of a lot of social justice movements. It's like what is the heart behind it? What is at the base what's at the core of it? You know, because it's, it's difficult you can train the mind and social engineer but you cannot train the heart and a person's part of their core is who they are. And I'm seeing a lot of these movements now and a lot of the DEI work in the framework. And I know some people in the audience here that may be their bag, that may be what what butters their bread. I wonder at times what is the heart behind it? And for myself, and just you know, even in the way I'm called, you know, you don't see a lot of that, you know, in my content because I don't want people just hopping on the bandwagon. And sort of getting in a feel good moment of I want to jump into this justice moment, and then opt out when it gets hard to opt out because your heart was never there. Like what is the motive behind that thing? I've seen a lot of movements kind of fizzle in and kind of come out because you have a lot of people who say I want to do the right thing, but there's no heart behind it. It's a hollow chest movement. Especially even in the DEI space. There's a lot of hypocrisy there with a lot of different people's skins. Even people who wear the same skin as me they're going with where their bread is buttered versus the real hard core of the work and I know those words aren't popular. You know, I'm definitely I think you know me, Asmara, we know each other offline. I am so not concerned about popularity. I'm just not the one for that. I'm really here to do the movement and really move how God has called me to move. And I know it takes heart to do those things. So I'm seeing dissonance in those spaces. And I think even a lot of that stuff is very popular here on LinkedIn because it stirs up a lot of emotion. But then there's a lot of opting out when it comes to the equity piece. We love the diversity and inclusion. And I've seen people even use my brown skin as a shield for their agenda. It's like no, no, no, there's still not equity though. There's all this inclusion. It's very cute. It's very quaint, but there's not equity. So cognitive dissonance. That's kind of where I'm outside of my work in counselling and consulting and podcasting. I'm kind of in a mission to expose that dissonance there because it is quite concerning. So jthat's ust wanted to say. God bless you guys.

I love that, Jahmaal, (I love that!) Jinx, you owe me a soda! No, no after you please.

No, no, I was I was going to say I love that and you know such a pleasure to share the stage with you for a moment Jahmaal. You know, it's there's often this question is you know, what, what are we working towards and why are we working towards it? You know, admission equality. One of the reasons we rebranded was to say this is what we're working towards, you know, we're working towards equality for everybody and equity. is the way that we get there. Right? You take those steps, and then eventually you have you have equality and you know, we have to start thinking about what does that actually look like? And yeah, you know, that means that some of the people that are saying "okay, I'm all in" need to really consider that they might have to give up a few things in order to make it better for all. But it will be better for all right? (Yeah) That's what you know, that's just what I wanted to add to what Jahmaal said.

Yeah. And like snaps all around to both of you. Those are some really, really powerful reflections there and I absolutely agree. There's a lot of things that we see as cosplaying for lack of a better word, as equity, you know, you're trying to so for example, this whole thing around you know, "bring your whole selves to work". Don't be telling people to bring their whole selves to work if you are not equipped and prepared to accept their whole selves. Okay, that is not inclusion, that is not equity. That is harm. Okay. (So it's harm. I agree). Absolutely. All right. So I see Kara is going to join us now cara, come on up. Unmute yourself.

Hey. Oh, this is amazing. What a wonderful group. I mean, seriously, what an incredible conversation. It's delightful to be here and thank you for inviting me and including me in this conversation. I want I think, for me, what I can see is that being kind of whole and complete as beings like human beings, outside of a creative context of colour actually making any difference at all I mean, by design, it does not, by design. Any human being can mate with another human being, and have an incredibly brilliant, perfect child. That's how we were designed. So to me, the challenge comes really comes in is how do we as human beings, create our world and our lives inside of that equality? Because we're all the same in that way in design. We are we have incredibly wonderful cultural differences that deserve to be honoured and praise with a past that's horrific, and is what it is, you know, inside of white supremacy in the world of it, right and racism. But and so to me, the work really comes from, or comes in, with those people who are committed to that. I mean, how many leaders are murdered? I mean, people are having, you know, we're watching the world on fire trying to keep things as it were saying that that was workable as if it ever was to for a very small few. It was workable, and then everyone else suffered and the world is awake. You know, the world is awake. I'm sitting here, you know, I'm sitting here now in Mexico, and it is extraordinary being in a place where people are so welcoming, and warm, and the people who own it are Brown. It's interesting to see what's happening here. Inside of that. You're aware now, like there and it's acceptable to be aware. The world is shifting, and it's important that it does because everyone wins. Everyone wins. You know, This whole concept of white people there is no fucking such thing. Excuse me for my not my use of vocabulary. There's just no such thing. There are no black there are no white. There's no such thing. There's different shades of Brown period. There's I'm sorry, I see a white person walking toward me. I'm running hell! Not like I don't within the construct of what that means right now. Anyway, but anyway, it's just, you know, it's definitely something for us to hold on. To grasp on to like...Are we just there's takes a certain level of bravery, compassion, awareness, to even be willing to stand for people being connected like we are. I mean, that's that's not the norm. You know, it may be the commitment of the majority. But then, are they are we really committed because that takes something I mean, it takes a lot like every day, peeling off a layer of something. I know for me, I can't speak for everyone but for me you know, that's, that's what it takes. And being willing to do the work. It's I guess, it's like any like a marriage. I mean, I'm not married. But I would assume like that's what this is like, is to when you get committed to relationships working. Then you do work. So I just really want to acknowledge Sharon and Asmara. It's been ever since I met you and my, my, my dear heart, Em, who's now in the audience. You know, just I'm very happy that I'm not in this conversation and alone anymore as a solopreneur. It's, it's invaluable. So that's all Thank you. Thank you for letting me share.

Thank you so much. It was lovely hearing from you, too. I really, really appreciate it and I think that it's, you know, it, it warrants taking a pause because like, I'm a huge biochemistry nerd, and I don't care how bad that sounds. But I used to just look at like melanin, the molecule, and think about how this little thing has just been weaponized, you know, (YES!) to sue to disenfranchise and to keep down entire groups of people and is just, like talk about cognitive dissonance friends, you know,

What I was thinking, what I was thinking as well and thank you. Thank you, Kara, for raising this is that, you know, it's like you have you'd have to cope with global moments of cognitive dissonance. If we were to let go of this thing that is actually completely unreal that we've been living with for centuries, this identity that we have that has been weaponized against some of us and used for the benefit of others.

Yeah, absolutely. All right.

I don't have the answer to that, I'm just I'm just saying it.

Oh, yeah. Amen. Friend, you and me. So I do see we have a little bit of a queue building up so I'm going to call up now. I thank you so much for joining us. Lovely Lady, unmute yourself and please tell us what's on your mind.

Thank you, so much. I appreciate you, Asmara. Hello Sharon. It was so good. To hear your voice Kara, I hadn't heard you voice so that was really delightful. So I wanted to kind of talk about my own. The cognitive dissonance that I see that people expect me to have as, as a black person in planet earth, while I definetely fully understand that skin colour is not biologically, it doesn't have any like variants or you know, we're all humans. I have found that the cognitive dissonance people want me to take on is that even though everywhere I go on the on the planet, I'm black on every continent, is it right? I'm not exotic, or I can't fix the level of anti-blackness. I have to experience every single place that I go. A level of anti-blackness I experience from Black people that look just like me, from people who are Brown from people who like the level up that y'all want me to act like I'm gonna just be like, well we're all together...ya no. (chuckles) Ever since I created more children that look like me, and it's really important that I want people like what I'm trying to say is that don't hate on people who are living in this experience. And because of whatever, the situation, white delusion white supremacy, whatever, I'm at the bottom because of all these different things in terms of the system's systemically. Now it has seeped into the mindset, into the media narrative, into a lot of different things. That I'm supposed to just be like, Well, come on, guys. Let's all get along because biology says that we're all the same. Yeah, no. I really need people to understand is that the impact multi generational impact of anti-blackness specifically, is as much as it's absurd to think that the MAGA crowd thinks the way they think, or it's absurd to for people to think that they should give up their power or you know, it's absurd to have this on the other extreme of white supremacy. It's absurd for you to talk to a black person who is experiencing the brunt of anti- blackness and for me to not be upset for me to act like everything's okay. And for me to, you know, go along to get along. That's out. So I'm not doing that. And I don't want anybody else to do that. And I am so tired of people trying to ask me to do that. That's what I wanted to share. Thank you.

Thank you sharing that.

Thank you so much. Can I could I you know, I just want to say you know, there we cannot deny that we are having this experience in the skin we're in that I you know, I will read I will say to I've said to people many times that I've experienced racism in every country, I've been in. Black majority countries, white majority countries. It is a global experience. And you cannot, I agree, deny the reality of that. Doesn't stop me from working doesn't stop me from working towards a future where that is not a reality. But it's what we're living with now. And we have to we have to be able to cope with both those ideas at the same time, I think.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And that's why, you know, sometimes I'll hear people be like, oh, you know, well, we have to find the middle ground. It's like, I'm sorry. Um, you...no! We're not going to find the middle ground with oppressors with people who relish our pain. Like, that's just not how this works. I'm so sorry. And also I'm not sorry. You know?

No, we don't we don't we don't have a responsibility or a duty to make those who oppressed us or whose ancestors have oppressed us comfortable. We just...we just do not. (Nope). And you know, even when we choose to do work that is calling people in. recognise that that is also a privilege that we are extending.

Absolutely, we do not have to let alone giving a seat at the table. Nobody even has to let you in the room. Okay, let's just let let folks at the Global majority have their spaces have their peace because God knows they have been systemically denied it for far too long. I am now going to go ahead and bring up my dear friend, Yinka. If you would like to come off, mute and talk to us.

Asmara, thank you so much for having me. Sharon, Asmara, this has been such a powerful conversation. I just want to thank you for the space today. I think again, listening to both Aya and Kara and Jahmaal's contributions. One thing that I really wanted to just reiterate and really ponder on is this whole idea of comfort and discomfort. You know, we in the UK have just come off what can only be described as a pantomime over the weekend, and you know the combination of just a the bastion of inequality and you know, and so watching and listening to the conversation this weekend just really helped me to really again, just really lean into the understanding that cognitive dissonance is everywhere. It is so insidious. It is in, you know, people that you love, that you respect that say, you know that say the right things 99% of the time. And so I'm just reminded that comfort is the most dangerous drug in the world. Because it's...we're so quick to go back to trying to be comfortable. We're trying to make other people comfortable and and actually, that's not what's gonna get it... if comfort would do it, it would have been done centuries ago. And so just I really love how you've called us up, you've called us out, you called us in, to really take a look at ourselves and reflect on our own cognitive dissonance. But also for us to recognise that it is everywhere. And you know, none of us are immune. We've all grown up in you know, white supremacist structures. Even in black majority countries. We're still being raised in these ideas. And it's like, it's like, air, you know, it's, you don't escape it just because, you know, you looks like or it seems like its over there. So I just really appreciate the opportunity to reflect on this, and to, you know, to look up my own, you know, biases and my own areas that you know, I need to uplevel or I need to, you know, deal with my own cognitive dissonance. And, you know, the importance of being open to continue to learn. And to continue to grow, and to continue to ask the questions. There were a lot of questions that when the asked probably for the first time this weekend. Around monarchy. You know, so people were shooketh at the idea that not everybody was really excited about you know, the coronoation. And I'm like, what world have you been living in? But again, you know, they're living their experiences. I'm living mine, but I just really appreciate the opportunity to reflect that we can all do better is the short answer, so...

Oh, thanks so much in such a it's such a pleasure to have your, your perspective on this, and yeah, the monarchy thing. Oh my gosh, I think I posted about it when the Queen died. Which is that... and it really reinforces what you're saying that for a lot of us for some of us that have grown up in black majority formerly colonised countries. You're constantly having to grapple with the tension between how these things are presented, and what your experiences and what you know of the history. And and so yes, you are living that cognitive dissonance, every, every day. And for me, also, the, the, my feelings about the coronation... I you know, I'm someone that you know, back in the day I watched royal weddings on television and all this kind of thing. For the coronation it's like I barely looked at it and I thought why, why is that? Why should that even matter to me? What is...what is it that these people have presided over over centuries? And, you know, why are we celebrating exploitation? That was where I was at the end of it.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. There is this Family Guy spoof where at one point they like, King at the time, Prince Charles comes to town and everyone just stands on the sides and goes, WANKER, WANKER, and he goes, right, right. Cheerio. Tallyho like, Yup, that's That's exactly it. That's pretty much encapsulates how I feel about the monarchy as well. So yeah, yeah. Yinka, thank you so much for sharing that. And absolutely, like this is why cognitive dissonance is one of the things that I help people unpack in Enliven because it's not only an individual problem. As we can see from this conversation is a huge societal problem too. And we are not going to get where we need to get if that is what is driving us there. It's just... that's just not how the world ought to work. So now I'm going to bring up my dear friend, Dr. LisaRose Blanchette. And she will join us. I know you had your hand up earlier. Lovely and sorry, but thank you for bearing with me.

Not a problem. Thank you. Sharon. Thank you. First of all, this has been wonderful and and just really eye opening. But you began your discussion with a quote from Franz Fanon. And as a daughter of father who was from Martinique, I really began to understand my father much better after I started reading Franz Fanon. I was wondering if you might speak to the colonisation of the mind a little bit and how that relates to the cognitive dissonance that people experience?

Damn! What a question. Only LisaRose could ask that question.

I love that question, though. I love that question. I think that's a really interesting one, because it goes along with the actual experience of being colonised. Obviously, because part of the colonisation is changing people's ideas about themselves and the world which we have been taught to do over generations. Right? I my other book about about colorism actually explores this a little bit in in the way that we are taught to see what the dominant ideal of any situation of any society is, and the ideas that go along with that. So and part of our process, as part of our learning and growth as people of the global majority, is distancing ourselves from the way we've been taught to see ourselves and seeing our true selves, if you will. I don't know that that's something that I can unpack fully right now. But it is definitely something that we need to be thinking about. I hope that started to answer your question. LisaRose.

Actually, it does. i It's got me thinking in a different way. So thank you. I appreciate that.

Thank you.

Thank you for the fabulous question.

Maybe follow up with you a little bit more.

Yeah, sure. Please do.

Thank you. And that's an open invitation to everyone. You know if there was something you wanted to say that you didn't get to, some reflection that comes up for you afterwards, and please do reach out to us. And...clearly it's a conversation we are more than happy to have, eh Sharon?

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, that that question from Dr. LisaRose is not a question that you can answer in a minute. For sure. And definitely requires more unpacking.

Yeah, absolutely. All of this was just a taster session, guys. We're going to need to have a sequel to this, folks clearly. All right. So we are coming up on the hour now. So I'm going to invite a Crystal and then Stacey. And then we're going to wrap this up and send all of you lovely folks on your merry way. So Crystal, go ahead and unmute yourself and let us know what's on your mind.

If you can.

Oh, there we go. I'm sorry. Hey y'all. So within the conversation, we talked a lot about anti-blackness and as a Black woman like the way that I experienced anti-blackness is the way that I experienced anti blackness. And thank you, Sharon, for mentioning the point where you said that we have to lean out of the idea of what is good, or what is the norm or what is superior. But Asmara. You said something earlier that really struck with me that global majority folks have to start focusing more on ease and joy. How do you suggest that we do that with all of the things are continuing to happen around us. Do you have a suggestion for that? So

You picked a good one, I go ahead, go ahead Asmara.

So Crystle, first of all, thank you so much for this really powerful question. It's something that I think is on the minds of a lot of global majority people, especially when we look at you know, gesturing broadly and everything it's a little bit of a shit show out there are a lot of a shit show. So how do you protect your peace? How do you fill your cup in in the in, you know, acknowledging that we live in this entangled mess of dysfunctional systems? So the answer to that is twofold. Firstly, accepting and acknowledging that self-care and self-reliance is a form of rebellion. It's really accepting the fact that these systems are set up to make you feel a certain way that is absolutely by design. But as much as that is true, and no one would ever doubt the validity of that, we also get to choose how what we do with that information. So one thing that I always advise people of like I have this programme, Enliven, that is geared towards individuals in particular, to help them navigate what that looks like for them. And the way we do that is, you know, there's five disruptors that show up anytime we endeavour to make changes, so we get really real about what are those changes you want to make? Are they in service to your ease and joy? And if yes, how can we bring those about for you? So there is a self-care element to it, but you cannot self care your way out of systemic like dysfunction. It doesn't work that way. However, and I frankly don't really jive with the whole concept of resilience. To be honest. I think a lot of it has been really bastardised for lack of a better word, by people who are just trying to be like, "oh, well get on with it, then it's not that bad. It's never been that bad, blah, blah, blah". And it's just kind of honestly of communal gaslighting at this point, where it's like, oh, well, you know, you should just be more resilient and you should cultivate your resilience. It's like, well, it doesn't actually work that way. However, we do need to be very intentional about how we fill our cup about how we show up for our communities and our and ourselves while we're doing the work. Because we're not useful or helpful to anyone burnt out and distraught and like unable to help ourselves. So the biggest thing that I will say to answer that question is equip yourself with the tools that make a difference. So whether that is working with someone like me, whether that is you know, entering into the Mission Equality spaces, and and leveraging that wisdom and that facilitation know-how to really contextualise everything so that you can unpack it, so that you can approach it. There are things available to us. And it's just about being discerning about what advice we take. Because the Brene Browns of the world are not for global majority folks. (chuckles) And similarly, we're not going to bubble bath ourselves out of systemic oppression. And besides that, like bubble baths and and and and you know all the other things that pass off a self care in capitalism aren't actually self care. It's just another vehicle of the same. So I hope that starts approaching an answer to your question. Sharon, anything to add to that?

Actually, actually, I think you just answered that beautifully. The one thing I would say is that, you know, we have to be mindful of our capacity in every given moment. Absolutely. Right. Absolutely. That's all that that is all. That's all I would add. And you know, it is okay to step back and to say, this is a shit show and I can't deal with this today and to retreat to a space that is safe for you.

Absolutely. Absolutely. You can't be 1,000% on all the time for everyone. So watch your energy, honour it. Listen to your body, listen to what it's telling you. And that's certainly step zero in the right direction I reckon. All right, so we are going to invite up Stacy now for some closing thoughts and then we'll wrap up here. Hi, Stacy.

Hi, Asmara. Hi, Sharon. This was really powerful talk me being me. I just like to reflect on what I actually heard. Because sometimes what we think was said was not what was said. And so the first thing was that what I understood from this talk was defining cognitive different dissonance as something that impacts everybody. Then Sharon brought examples of being part of the global majority in a space where everyone looked like her and still having this cognitive dissonance. Myself, just as a human being the cognitive dissonance that while we all technically know or most people know that there is only one race, the human race, we're not allowed to experience that as humans because there's still this idea that some people should not be treated as human because they are not what is considered the default. So what I took from this is also defining the problem. So what is the problem that we're trying to solve? And one of the problems is cognitive dissonance and the impact that it has on the global majority as well as the global minority because while discomfort is not going to kill you, active racism and white supremacy does. And everybody has poor outcomes as a result of that. So it's just a lot of things to sit with and reflect on. And as you said, as my what is our "to be" state, and we can't just sit here and go, Okay, this exists. It's so sad that this thing exists. Okay, it exists. So then we have to sit and reflect on what are we going to do about it? How do we resolve this dissonance within ourselves? And yes, that will mean being uncomfortable and doing some soul searching and doing some reflection, but it doesn't mean that you're a horrible human being. If you just decide to stick with the status quo, then I mean, I'll leave that to you to decide on what that means for yourself. Thank you.

Thank you so much for sharing that, Stacy. Really appreciate you. And I think that that's an a really excellent segue to kind of close us out. Sharon, where should people go from here? Now that we've established cognitive dissonance is a ubiquitous issue. It impacts us impacts society, it impacts systems. What do we do with this information you think?

What we do with this information is we look at ourselves, and we look at our systems, and we look at our society and we see where we can unpack what's going on and where we feel capable of or of making change, of taking new information. Of, you know, seeing how we can either reduce cognitive dissonance where it's not serving us or use it as a catalyst to do something different.

Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And I that is just the most perfect answer. No notes, nothing to add. Yeah, exactly. That exactly that. And I think that, you know, really powerful ways to do that is to look within ourselves as individuals, whether that's through programmes like Enliven, whether that's through spaces, like, facilitated by Mission Equality, whether that's through other means of anti-racism, education. But certainly Knowledge is power. But knowledge is also insufficient. And it it doesn't become... understanding doesn't become knowledge without implementation and integration. That is a hill I will die on any day of the week. And there's a huge difference between understanding the reality of something and having that that real knowledge around it so I would say, elevate the voices that do know, that have that lived experience, amplify wherever you want, wherever you can, wherever you're able, and always remember that you are in somebody's you are in a house that is belonging to one of your fellow brothers and sisters and behave accordingly. Basically. What are your thoughts on that?

I have nothing to add as far as that was perfect.

And thank you for humouring me that I said I had nothing to add and then proceeded to add something that is definitely very on-brand. Well, thank you, everyone. So much for tuning in for listening for participating. I know we went a little bit over but I think that just speaks to how powerful and frankly, for me at least, transformative this conversation has been. So, thank... I'm so so grateful to you Sharon for joining in and for sharing with us today.

I really appreciate you making the space available. And you know, this was a really, really powerful topic. When you first suggested it. I had no idea what we were going to end up talking about but it has been such a wonderful conversation. I really also appreciate all the people that came up and shared their perspective as well. It has really made it very rich.

Yeah, absolutely. And thank goodness we have the transcript and the audio recording for this. I'm gonna need to go through it again and really sit with it and and marinate on it a bit more. So thank you so much, once again, everyone. We will see you here next week for from Bogged Down to BAM, how to overcome inertia to amplify your impact and live your best life with Samantha Harman and that will also be an excellent conversation that will all be excellent conversations and they will all be at 1215 Eastern on Wednesdays so I hope you will join us for the rest of this series. Take it easy. I'll catch you soon. Bye!

Bye!