Communications and Networking in LEO Mega-Constellations

11:58PM Feb 16, 2023

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satellites

question

network

solution

ieee

advantages

problem

high altitude

communication

paradigm

space

communications

constellations

construct

talking

scenarios

include

connect

rf

station

Hello everybody, welcome

we're gonna wait here a few minutes while people get in is settled in

and met see

while we're waiting

for people to join,

AJ yes sir CVX mini I have no idea why he doesn't say my name but that's who I am.

Okay. Would you mind being a co host and let people in while I'm doing an intro?

Oh no problem. How

do I do that?

I'll turn you into a co host in a minute here.

Okay, so when when the thinking goes on, I have to let them in. Yes,

please. Okay, your co host now. You've been assigned

co host Okay.

All right. So okay, so while everybody's coming in. What I'd like to do is in the chat, would you put like three words with a summary of your interests? Your LinkedIn a link to your LinkedIn profile, email address, you know, something similar to what you would exchange if you're an in person meeting with a business card, pop that into the into the chat. And then, before leaving, just remember to save the chat so you have everybody's contact information. I'll give you an example of what you might do.

Right here

okay.

And then so before we get started, I just want to I just want to say we're going to record the presentation tonight. So if you can keep your video and your audio turned turned off during, you know for most of the recording. If you have a question, turn on your audio turn on your video, use your reaction and raise your hand and you can ask our speaker the question

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end of the presentation and after there are no more questions. I'll stop the recording and I'll open it up to questions. Again, for anybody who doesn't want to be recorded but still wants to ask a question. So you'll have that opportunity. And then this is a public meeting so don't disclose anything that's confidential confidential enough. Forum here.

Okay. All right. So

j where do I turn? There are people waiting because I'm trying to figure out where to go and

Okay, so at the very top, you'll see a waiting waiting room. I've got three people you can do admit all or admit.

Where do I see waiting? room I don't see where

if you scroll all the way to the top of the list you'll see joined and waiting room.

No, I don't. Where do I see it but do I see it?

A couple of us not

so but I'm not on a computer is that a problem?

That might be

with them? Is that initial Anisha was that you?

Thought I could go into Security do it but oh there I thought I could do security.

It should be under if you click on participants. Okay,

okay, there we go. Yes. All right. I got it. Admit There we go. That's it.

Okay. All right. Great. We still have one person

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gonna begin recording

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Okay, record to this computer recording

in progress. All right.

Okay. Hi, everybody. Welcome to the consultants network of northern New Jersey. The consultants Network was established in 1992. So that makes makes us 31 years old this year. So we've been focused on assisting self employed and independent consultants and connecting directly with clients and inventors. We're an affiliate group of the I triple E, and we offer networking opportunities like this one. And connections to our private private chat functions that are on our website for for our members. And that allows you to market your services to potential customers. We can be searched by keywords, people can contact you you can message other consultants I've been a member for about five years now. And I found it very, very beneficial and helps me with with my consulting business. And if you're interested, please consider joining. We have a forum on the on our website that you can download and fill out on Jay Moriarty. I'm the Vice Chair. Jim Julian is the chair or Walker as a secretary Eldo could Nene is our treasurer. I'll post all our contact information shortly on the chat so you can contact any one of us if you have any questions or comments. And we're also looking for Pete volunteers. If you want to participate, we have open chairs available. If anybody's looking for a consultant, please contact us you can drop a note in the chat or contest contact us directly. And through our information. I'll pop in the in the chat shortly. I'd like to acknowledge the North Jersey executive committee for their support currently we are a joint meeting with special interest group on humanitarian technology, also known as site antennas and propagation society, microwaves theory and technology society, photonic society. And I'd also like to thank and support the support from the IEEE, Seattle consultants network, Silicon Valley, consultants network and Long Island consultants network. A little bit about the IEEE IEEE has over 400,000 members in 160 countries and more than 60% of the members are outside the United States. There's more than 125,000 Student members, which was a surprise to me. That's really excellent. There's 340 sections and 10 geographic regions worldwide. There's 39 Technical societies and the IEEE explorer digital library has over 5 million documents they produce are if an actor performs over 1000 standards. They publish 200 transactions, journals and magazines a year

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they sponsor 2000 conferences in 96 countries. So pretty extensive and their their focus is advancing technology for humanity. I'll put links to all this in the chat shortly. If you have any questions. You have a lot of IEEE members here. Consultants here if you have questions, please ask about mostly anything and now I'd like to introduce our speaker, Dr.

Nash. Blunt, Kurt.

He got her degree from the University of

our C and

ist involved involve. She has a masters and a PhD in electrical engineering from the University of Ottawa. She was an algorithm engineer at 10 uk or less in Canada. She was also an algorithm engineer and designer at Edgewater computer systems in Canada. She was a r&d engineer at Turkcell. She is a Marie Curie fellow. She received the Turkish Academy of Science outstanding young scientist award in 2019. She's a was a professor of Electronics and Communication Engineering and the director of wireless communication research. Laboratory at the Istanbul Technical University. Dr. Hurt is currently an associate professor of electrical engineering at a Technic Montreal in Montreal, and she's also an adjunct Research Professor at Carleton University. If that's not enough, she's also the associate technical editor for IEEE Communications Magazine, the IEEE Communications letters, IEEE wireless communication letters, transactions IEEE Transactions on machine learning and communications and networking. She's a marry member of the IEEE WC and C steering board. She serves as a secretary of the IEEE satellite and Space Communications technical committee. She's Chair of the special interest group on satellite mega constellations, communications and networking. She was a distinguished lecturer on vehicle the killer technology society class of 2022. Please welcome Gooners for her talk on communication and networking, and mega constellations.

Many thanks for

the kind introduction J. And also for this invitation. I'm delighted to be here. And also I would like to thank all the attendees including my two students on we announced Olivia Valencia In addition, Holgate thanks for being here i so i I'm happy that there are some people that are already know and I'm looking forward to meeting the rest of the attendance. So thank you for being here. And as you mentioned, I tried to be rather active in this field of mega constellations, the chairing the special interest group that is connected with the satellite and space communication. Focus group of IEEE in addition to that we are currently preparing and investigating collection so it's a rather active field. We and it is the interest to this is increasing day by day. And it's a very say I have been working in communications for as you mentioned, I don't want to come two years but also over maybe two decades now. And the field that I worked was never so much in the news. I have never seen so much things about it in the news and now I'll try to wrap up my talk with this Bible to me so I think it's like Russian very, very active field and every day there's something new happening. And yeah, if you have any questions at any time, please feel free to ask them. So yeah, so this is my my title slide I will talk about communications and networking in New York, mega constellations. The difference here is the mega word because before that new constellations were also already available. But they there is a tendency that they that the from the busyness perspective, they are not sufficiently profitable. So that's what we have been seeing with iridium. So hopefully it will be different this time. So, to proceed a little bit about facts from full technique, not reality side. So we are a university based in we are a polytechnic university which means we are only engineering university based in Montreal and we have excellent views. We are located at the mountain in Montreal. If you have ever visited it as about 9500 students, and it's the number is increasing with 28% Women and the university dates back to 1873. So we are celebrating the 100 and 50th anniversary. These days. We are happy about it, and is a research oriented University with a significant institutional research budget. So it's one second, okay, so, so that's where we are based. So if you ever want to visit Montreal, send me an email and I'll be happy to communicate with you. The talk today I will first start with the emerging mega constellations. They are all over the news. Of course, the Space X is the project with various plans are being discussed by FCC. So I will start with that discussion and then I will continue with the standardization aspects which I hope be the main difference that will make it make it viable from the business perspective. From the technology perspective, it's already up there. Then I will try to give some information about the research that I have been conducting so far with my colleagues with a focus on the communications in space. So satellite communications is a rather say classical field it's it's made a created the origins for the like the many many communication standards either or but but the there will be some new developments. So I'll try to focus on that. Especially I will focus on two different communication systems one, not systems but the architectures space. To ground and, and space to space in terms of inter satellite communications. The novelty here, which didn't exist before is it will be the networking aspect. So the networking aspect is rather new in space and I'll try to say a couple of words about that. That part as well to the emerging area, I must say. Then I will talk about future research directions including a little bit of the security aspects and in terms of security. That is where I'll try to speak later about these spiral wounds which is basically a paradigm that we have been playing around with since 2021. And it's connecting satellites with the ground will surely benefit from these stratospheric devices I wish you'd say instead of Bose, so I'll talk about that and finally conclude my talk. So first, starting with this sustainable development goals of of the United Nations there are 17 goals defined, that is targeted to be achieved by 2030. And these goals are to I designed with me with the hope of improving the quality of life for everyone living on this planet. And this This includes weighing three vehicles of course, including the elimination of poverty, elimination of hunger and all these but if you look underneath these goals, most of them include global Internet access as an essential enabler like quality education. This is something that we have seen during the COVID times where they almost all education had to be transferred to online online systems. So having Internet access is basically rather important and a necessary condition to be able to reach the Sustainable Development Goals.

Now,

associated with goals is the paradigm of leaving no one behind and during the pandemic. Also we have seen that the command is ever more reliant on Internet connectivity. You know, I would like to read a quote from from a report of the UN's general UN Secretary General's high level panel on digital cooperation and the court of mitigate gaze and Dima indicates that access is a necessary but insufficient step forward. To capture the power of digital technologies. We need to cooperate on broader ecosystems that need to enable these technologies to be used in an inclusive manner. So this cooperation is basically the main paradigm that I would like to focus on towards the throughout this talk, and when we are talking about these, this Internet connectivity, we are not only talking about carbon city centers, there are also so many rural play centers, where Internet connectivity can only be provided by satellites. And I have included a map that shows the satellite dependent communities in in Canada especially in the northern territories. The satellite connections is an essential aspect of daily life. So when we look at the satellite networks, things are changing very fast in this domain with very ambitious plans. There are many countries and then in each country, not only on the national level, but I mean, not only from the government's perspective but also private companies that have been launching a number of satellites. And there's a big they're ambitious plans for the future with Starlink a starling is the leading player in this domain what with the plans of 42,000 new constellations and the deployment, one web is aiming give us 6000 satellites Amazon Cooper is aiming about 3000 satellites, and Canada's TELESAT is also aiming to construct the network in the future about 1600 satellites. And, of course, these plans change daily and these numbers are updated daily, but the it is clear that the space is getting more and more populated. So the table that I have placed on the right side is from a very recent paper that got published in February that's based in transactions and communications. And there we have included these numbers but by the time that in about a year this these numbers will change. So that's what I'm what I'm trying to say is this is a very dynamic area and every almost every day we can see a related development and here I collected a couple of news bullets from last September, and of course, I can extend the samples. But there are a couple of things that I would like to emphasize first of all, there are new and new players coming into the picture. There are new developments in terms of the cooperations between the companies that we are seeing. So from all these perspectives is a rather dynamic field not only from my company wise but the dynamics between companies are also changing rather quickly. So the news word from the left side indicates the cooperation between Apple and global star where SMS messages or short messages can be sent to satellites income in case of urgencies in the middle, we see an example of the 5G deployment with one web satellite so this is a trial of the 5G network with the existing satellite constellation of one word. On the right side we see an example where you can connect to Internet on a on a cruise ship using the onboard modems of this yet. So there are all these developments and they are we keep seeing additional examples. And these developments are also getting very I say adventurous and ambitious. Another example that I have is this ASD space MOBAs pool worker tree which is which is a satellite that aims to connect directly to the cell phones. So just to give you the difference between those two paradigms, and show you the shift between the paradigm. I'm not sure if you can see the cursor but here we have special terminals that can net need to increase the game to be able to connect to satellites directly. But looking at the another typical type of solution is with ASD space mobile's satellite, we are looking at a giant antenna array giant by giant I mean about 700 square foot communication antenna and this with this any antenna elements what we are doing is we are basically we can basically increase the gain and then if we can eliminate the requirement of specialized terminals so we can directly connect to the satellite you using our phones. So this is more like the integration paradigm that is targeted by the United Nations. So we are getting closer there. So, this is the this is the good part of the news. And of course there is always advantages and disadvantages and and I was asked this question by Johannes Geller in in one of the vehicle technology society lectures that I was given and coming to the disadvantages, okay. What are the problems associated with them they radio astronomy is very much impacted by the pollution light pollution that is created by these satellites and companies are trying to find solutions is one example which is dubbed as dark set to be able to limit the reflection from the separate lights to not to disrupt the observations by radio astronomers.

Another

issue is is that of the space debris. There are so many others like that with the site I will read the title space debris expertise in that the oldest will be lost and people will die later in this decade. And it is rather scary from looking at this in a multi dimensional way, so we have to have a harmonized way of development or sustainable development of space and this this is basically in this has to be accompanied with the tractable space debris which is basically an issue that that will pop up in the news in the future and find a finally coming back to the AC space mobile solution. This is the this is what is a an interpretation of what could be expected we actually don't know about it, but there are these I would say there are predictions and with this giant antenna array. The problems can become even more critical both from the radio observatory so radio observations radio, radio astronomy observations, and also from the space up perspectives if if a collusion happens so it's again, it's a very critical subject that needs to be handled in a multinational manner. So, what is out has been happening as the as I tried to emphasize the there are all these developments with satellite constellations on with with different companies. And so far from the economical side is it still doesn't actually make a lot of sense and there are all these discussions about how to make these these constellations profitable. So serving the underserved or unconnected communities actually doesn't actually introduce a viable business unless it's subsidized by by governments. And so far, this wasn't a success, but I am. I am rather optimistic this time and I will try to justify this by looking into these standardization aspects. So what is happening from the research perspective? I have been working on 6G so called 6G research for a number of years now. And there are all these different so features that is included within the paradigm of the 6G evolution that varies from the use of scepter house and her husband's to reflect the intelligence surfaces, but I will try to look at the difference from an architectural perspective. And in this architectural perspective, we are actually looking at a vertical network which will be composed of a terrestrial network which is basically the current network that we already have. And in addition to that, we will have an aerial network which we are also

seeing

somebody deployments about it including some UAVs and drones, which could be used as both as a recruitment and a base station. So for example, drone based delivery systems would rely on the aerial network. And I would like to introduce another component that

wasn't

that wasn't known before, and not as much as it wasn't in the news, let me say, which is the high altitude platform station, and high altitude platform station is like a stratospheric station that is located between around 17 to 2025 kilometers from the surface of the Earth. It could be all these volumes that we keep hearing a bug. And then finally the third layer is the satellite network that contains the combination of low earth orbit, medium Earth orbit and geosynchronous Earth orbit satellites. So all these three layers are envisioned. So how can we combine these layers? That is the main problem that researchers are trying to address. Each layer comes with its own set of advantages and disadvantages. And space layer the satellite layer comes with its own advantages that has, for example because of the multi layer structure in addition to GEO satellites, the LEO satellites are introducing some favorable link budget and high SNR conditions. In addition, satellites have rather large footprints that provides a good coverage advantage regarding the challenges the high mobility of the newer satellites with the very fast motions around the Earth, this is a problem. Latency associated with the round trip delays is a problem. And of course, it's prone to some some attacks which may also be an issue security attacks. The aerial network, on the other hand, is composed of both lower altitude platforms like UAVs and high altitude platforms. They have their own advantages like with the flexible deployment cost effective wireless services, much lower round trip delays and low Patmos and of course, whenever there is an advantage and there is a disadvantage. So the challenges are the high mobility and sometimes the lack of coverage especially with the with the UAVs because we don't have vertical coverage on the ground. So how will we make sure that they have worked with one another is the only solution that that is available for inharmonious deployment is standardization. So when we have this standard, then there will be multiple companies Following this standard and and there will not be a compatibility issue. I must say that the current satellite deployments. Most. have the information about the communication systems is proprietary so we don't actually have a lot of details about the design of the communication systems and there is no standardization that that is enforced in this domain, especially with the free space optical communication. So, the key to success as I see it is is mainly standardization. So, of course, standardization groups are also aware of this, especially through GPP Third Generation Partnership Project is very active in this field. And here's the overview of what is happening from the 3G perspective especially on the left side even starting from release 615 and 16 in the product level, we start seeing about the use of satellites and and other aerial network components in the networks. Of course they will roll is expected to increase when we roll evolved was released 2022 And they will also include a smarter set of lights. So, of course, I also need to mention that 3G PP is not the only standardization body that is promoting these are ITU is also the international telecommunications. Telecommunication Union is very active at sea is very active there there are some national initiatives as well. And satellite standardizations like the VB group of standards are also progressing rather well. And by the time they are evolving towards 6G There will be more features that needs to be included but so far we can say that though they standardization groups are taking this issue very seriously. And what is happening is basically from standardization, especially in the 50 generation deployments, three different dimensions are highlighted these include the service continuity, so that we will have continuous services. We will have service ubiquity so that we will be able to access services regardless of of the constraints and location, and finally, service scalability when we are talking about the increased number of say users every because of the software based nature of the network management see the structure we will be able to accommodate our offer scalable services. So these are the planned use cases for the fifth generation. And as I mentioned even starting with release 15 have the non terrestrial networking elements. Elements are already in the picture. And of course there are so many other things that needs to be developed following this but just to give you an idea, I have this table from one of the technical recommendations of 3G EPP. So this is from TGP tr 38.8 under 21. And here we can see the different satellites that can be used at the base station Leo Meo GEO satellites and then unmanned aerial system platforms including a high altitude platform station, and also we can include high elliptical orbit satellites. with varying altitude trains. So each of these devices have different footprints. And they are actually rather large, including the footprint of the high altitude platform station that can go up to 200 Kilometer so this is basically something that can be deployed already even in the standard form. So it's not a distant future. And this may actually be the key for the economical success of the satellites

and how we'll be integrate these.

So integration is all for a good story that that changes with respect to the capabilities that we would like to include into satellite and there are different deployment or integration scenarios in the slide. That is based on the technical recommendation 38.81. And here in the first one, we can basically see that the satellite is working as a conventional radio frequency band pipe and sending this so it's just simply working as a forbidding play, and the signal is collected at the remote radio unit which which is the base station GNB. In another deployment, we can actually do some of the processing. So we can actually shift some of the functionalities of the base station to the satellite. And then we will rest on the network that is connected with the remote radio unit. and the interface between the two components can be defined over the satellite

connection.

So we can also shift the whole GNPs functionality to the satellite, and then make the rest of the core network connection with the rate. Okay. What we can do is we can also use this satellite as as the conventional bagpipe The first strategy. However, we can try to connect jointly, the satellite, the base station can extend the scenario to connect one user equipment to two satellites, which are all already also in that pipe scenario which that means most of the processing is on the outside the remote radio unit. Or finally, we can try to put two base stations up into satellites and connected to remote radio units. So, these are all different scenarios. That can be inter extended and the especially with multi connectivity that also provides a way of increasing the signal to noise ratio and provides an advantage or provides an option to have connections directly with the user equipment. And perhaps I need to also mention that here. In addition to the conventional user equipment, we still see satellite dish. The goal the ultimate goal in the Holy Grail here is is directly connect with the user equipment and not used as a specialized satellite dish. So this is basically the evolution strategy of the integration of the terrestrial networks with the satellites

inevitable further in the in the picture our region in this paper that we have written with Professor testing Darish the these networks will need to be evolving in an autonomous manner. So once we have two quick satellite connections, we can easily extend it to multi satellite connections and then we can easily extend it to multi high altitude platform connections and perhaps a drone swarm. And as the systems get more and more complicated, at this time, we can start talking about the machine on paradigms and how how the network will be optimizing radio Resource Management functionalities to be able to address and strict requirements. So this is basically the evolution of the network, which we adopt as the self evolving network. And this

may be

one of the ways that all these verticals, architectures can function in an harmonious manner. And of course we are not only talking about single band we are talking about multiple bands we are talking about free space optical communications, as wherever possible fiber optic communications for the backhaul connections. So this is what is happening from the standardization aspects and I would like to continue with the communications, the developments in the communication perspective and also focus on the first space ground connectivity. For space ground connectivity with satellites. Or maybe with high altitude platform stations as well. We can talk about two different solutions. One of them is the radiofrequency communications and these with RF communications The advantages are clear. The weather has a negligible effect. I mean it has an effect but it's negligible compared to the other solution which will be the freeze free space optical communications. In the absence of line of sight we can still make the system function in lanai. With works in non line of sight regions can be used for various different applications with satellites of course radios broadcast and and medical systems. Regarding the challenges, we are talking about the congested spectrum especially for terrestrial networks. So we have to make sure that we are working with an interference controlled environment. The data rates may be on the lower side. There is problems associated with the fading multipath fading the shadowing aspect there is molecular absorption and rain attenuation and finally there are security risks, meaning that large footprints we are subject to eavesdropping attacks and also because of the wireless nature we are subject to man in the middle and spoofing attacks. But this RF communication is well established solution and especially with the high throughput satellites where we have multiple beams as you can see on the right side of the picture. We can achieve high data rates through high data rates it is

that is the

very subjective metric. The best case solid scenario so far that is envisioned by by SpaceX. In the in their. In their say cooperation with the operators is about four megabit per second, so it's still much lower than the Wi Fi speeds. But in the absence of connection that is really advant advantages especially given that with current technology we are only talking about very love SMS services, text services

looking at the solution

from the second approach that we can take is for the space ground connectivity is to use free space optical communications. Now in these kinds of systems, we use lasers or light to transfer information. It is once it's finely calibrated, extremely high data rates can be obtained. It is license free licensing in RF bands is a is a very say a detailed process and very expensive process. So licensed free systems such as the free space optical communication systems are rather attractive and they are very difficult to intercept because we are looking at a very, very narrow beam and the transmit power requirements are lower than those of RF. However, in the presence of any kind of fog cloud the hit whether snow or dust, the propagation conditions deteriorate very rapidly. If there is atmospheric turbulence we may not be able to align the transmitter and receiver properly. The atmospheric attenuation is still an issue and pointing in problems can also reduce the signal to noise ratio. However, there are a number of examples that show that this is technically feasible. So in in our research, we were trying to get these two different aspects RFN FSR and especially in the in terms of in terms of the system models, the mathematical models we have shown that there are some solutions to overcome these challenges. The first solution that I'll talk about is to use RF and FSO complement in a complementary manner that I will talk about cooperative communication scenarios. I will then discuss a little bit on the MIMO extensions, multi antenna multi multi input multi output extensions and here we are actually looking at self free constructs. The reason that we are looking at self reconstructs is simply because when we are thinking about LEO satellites, there is no well defined cell because they're also moving very rapidly. And finally, we are trying to understand if we can use these metal surfaces instantly configurable metal surfaces which are referred to as reflective intelligent surfaces to improve the signal to noise ratio.

The first solution

that I will I will look at is this the use of RF and FSO and hybrid manner and this is this is from a recent paper that is authored by author and my colleagues Professor Don Professor automation Professor Ian Ian co Merola and in this very simple construct we try to use RF and FSL in a in an adaptive manner. So if we have context ever in a satellite and satellite can select the advantageous transmission strategy as actually a very simple idea the what we try to understand this okay, there may be a we try to look if there may be any scenarios where a new use would make sense and we have seen that especially for an ting cloud. It will be better to use both of them at the same time to improve diversity. And I don't want to go into details of the simulation results, but we have seen that this kind of solution the hybrid use of RF and FSO links is actually rather advantages. Of course I'm just talking about the a DD communicating perspective. The from if you want to look at the disadvantages, the payload size will increase and it should be also analyzed if it would make sense economically to send what kinds of payloads on a on a satellite. Another kind of solution we looked at is is the Seiter diversity on the ground and we try to look at it in an upside down manner as well where we want to connect a a ground state earth station with multiple satellites. And this is kind of site diversity. Of course we can just connect every other ground station with with fiber optic. It provides a significantly hybrid higher performance. However, it's of course very high cost and we also need to worry about synchronization although it's much more easier of a problem. When we are looking at the thumb link for the if you consider multiple satellites than synchronization becomes a bigger problem especially because of the mobility between these lights. So we when you look at this kind of diversity fee increase the ground stations the communication gain is rather easy to observe. And we tried to notice in the in this paper in this IEEE access paper then we try again with all find a lamb. We started investigating whether it would be useful to use these stratospheric balloons like high altitude platform stations, and these high altitude platform stations are actually an incredible solution to collect. The information from from the ground and then send it to the satellites. In this construct, we tried to use RF connection between the the ground station and the high altitude platform station and they have the hubs platform uses free space optical communication to send the data to the satellite. And if the satellite cannot send it back to earth, there may be another high altitude platform station somewhere around the world to be able to send this data and we try to understand how this kind of reconstruct would improve performance. And we have seen a significant advantage in terms of the signal to noise ratio. And then once we see so disadvantage, I don't have the details here with in terms of this outage probability and the bit error rate we then extended the construct to multiple high altitude platform stations. And of course, with this kind of a construct we have seen a significant amount of performance gain as you can see from the changing slope in this outage probability curve. So these high altitude platform stations are actually super advantage. That's why we want to connect the ground stations with the satellites and then from satellites of course they can serve as a backhaul to be able to collect all this data. And this is from a recent paper again, first author's offer or so. Yeah. And this was a paper after that offer, received her PhD thesis, defended her PhD thesis so I'm very happy with all her work. Extension of of this paradigm is we started to look at the problem from the upside down perspective as I tried to hint a little while ago and in this kind of structure, we tried to connect the user equipment directly with the satellites. This is also seemed it seems like very advantages to be able to connect direct phones directly to the satellites however from the design aspects is rather complicated. We have to it needs to be finely optimized, not only from the duplexing and pilot assignment perspective, but the beamforming handover management and synchronization perspectives is a big it may be a big headache. And finally, we tried to extend this this kind of a construct by including multiple clusters and then defining communications between these clusters and of course, again on papers looking rather promising. So we have applied for a patent on this solution.

And then there's our

solution that I would like to another kind of say a novelty in this field could be the use of metal surfaces. And for that we are trying to investigate if it makes sense to include some metal surface coated solar panels on satellites. And based on the mathematical models again, we obtained through other advantages, results especially for IoT scenarios, Internet of Things scenarios. And we also try to see this see if we can make a meaningful beamforming and we can include Broadcasting Services with this kind of a scenario. And again, this this looks advantages I suppose this is a multi multidisciplinary domain. So communications models are just one part of it. That's why I'm trying to be cautious when I'm explaining the medical advantages. So there's more, more aspects that needs to be considered for these. And finally, within this kind of construct, of course with the machine learning and the benefits of machine learning, machine learning is there especially with say a geometry based channel models and currently we are in the process of looking at these kinds of constructs. By looking at the end we are focusing on graph attention networks. So this is a work that is still ongoing by a by cachectic week. So we are still investigating this paradigm. That was the space to grant connectivity and Jay. I'm trying to be cautious of time as well but let me know if I'm too slow or something.

So I will, you're doing great.

Okay, thank you. So I'll try to look at the intersection like communication so this part this is why we are a bit more adventurous than the space to grant connectivity. First of all, we are yeah have popped up from every aspect of my research as you can see, and all the apps that I have been considering they're all very innocent. So I don't want to cause any speculation. From the mathematical perspective again, what we have CCE showed that if there is a high altitude platform station like a balloon, we can also use this to be able to control multiple satellites so when we are looking at this mega constellation, the control signals and everything to be able to say that we need for network management, they can be generated with from this high altitude platform station. And we we have tried to investigate different scheduling strategies and show that is also promising. So, so cooperation, especially for my time we are considering satellites from 400 to 750 kilometers from the surface of the earth. Instead of trying to connect them to a ground station at on the surface of the earth. We can use a high altitude platform station and the lack of clubs and and relatively stationarity relative stationarity of this high altitude platform station. seems very promising actually.

Now the

now that we are looking at line of sight propagation with no clouds are only in pre space environments. We started investigating the array of sub array structures and with these multi antenna arrays, we can obtain rather high gains similar to the idea that is executed by AC space mobile. And this will provide us a mean to include extend the frequencies to much higher carrier frequencies such as the terahertz events. And we have tried to understand if it would be if we can actually make use of this term overspends for the sensing applications and in this paper is conference paper which we actually try this and show that even because of the structure and one, say advantage provided by the array, because of the array again, it is rather messy promising to have to obtain high localization accuracy, high angle of arrival estimation accuracy. And once we talked okay now that terahertz make sense may make sense in space to be able to use in larger with larger antennas, what other advantages can we exploit on there? So the solution to the second question turned out to be to be the use of joint communication and sensing system. And this integrated communication and sensing paradigm is very, very popular these days in the research community and has a number of very promising applications. So we tried to take this the use of B because of the high frequency carriers that could that can give us improved sensing capability. We try to use this construct to be able to detect possible space debris. So this is like an automatic like a bonus feature. In addition to communications and then with this feature we can try to understand if there is any debris between the transmitter and receiver and the the the main say the question that we try to answer is basically if there is a if is there like a multiplex that is generated and that is with this recent paper of Gizem that we presented in the glob coming December. We try to use trap waveforms the trap waveforms are very high peak to average power ratio. And they are the ones that they are waveforms that is used for a echolocation and we try to mimic this and so that we can get actually very good accuracy to detect this. And finally we the use of intelligent surfaces is something that we are we have been playing around with and we revisited the same paradigm in terms of the inter satellite communications and as long as we don't have a big thing this alignment between the transmitter and receiver, we can obtain favorable results. So in terms of if we have like if we cannot align them properly, then that's that's an issue. So so all these advantages and disadvantages. Now finally, when I put all these things together, so far we have been talking about the communication, art for Earth they say by provided by satellites. We can also see that these satellites can also serve for the next step of humanity by extending the space networks to lunar communication systems and then later for interplanetary communications. And personally, I believe that the use of additional stratospheric devices like high altitude platform systems I mentioned them a lot perhaps but that is certainly advantage advantages because of their stationary nature and then aid with the pedalos

exponents. So

I will then okay once I am convinced that there is this it's possible to have space to ground connectivity and satellite to satellite connectivity. Now, I will start discussing the networking paradigm and this is some this is this work we are doing with Dr. Pablo Madhuri jointly with my colleagues from Carleton and then our colleagues from MDA and NRC national search of Canada.

The

what we tried to do is basically now currently we are still playing around with the idea, but will for our first solution. It will focus on the use of delay tolerant networking, and this is the basically DTN is the current networking paradigm that serves us to collect data from from space networks. So it's used in Deep Space Communications and interplanetary networking. And

it is

designed with the conception that there can be high delay from at some length so. So it is it is the say the flexible delay to live like electrical and as as rather flexible to possible delays. So what we try to do is every three we have been playing around with the idea of this bundle layer that that is above the transport layer and it employs a processing storage on each DTN node to store carry and forward data packets as as the opportunities are available, and opportunities are available not only from the geometric conditions between the nodes but it also entails the traffic intensity. So, based on this traffic intensity, we can make some advantages decision and because of the predictable nature of these, the geometric geometry between these devices that they the time varying distances between satellites, we can devise a contact plan that is taking into account this connectivity. So far, this kind of an approach seems to be promising So, we are we are still working on ways to improve this performance. From the networking perspective, of course, not only from the the solutions not only with the routing but also with the network management and one of these in a work that we have been we have conducted with again Dr. Testing nourish we try to see how how this evolution will take place and that includes changes in the network's life management. Now that we have this vertical network and the management and orchestration of the integrated satellite components integrated satellite components, which have very much time varying topology can be addressed with again with a little bit of forecasting for the not only from the network topology perspective, but also with a traffic demand perspective and the management it comes in a multifaceted problem. There will be we'll need to worry about management of satellite components. And then we need to also monitor monitor satellites with split GNB. So what I basically In short, what I'm trying to say is, as we have seen that the satellite connectivity, satellite integration will be will come in multiple phases. As we progress more in these phases. We need to think about more details to be able to make sure that everything functions in a coherent and harmonious manner

and there will be some

problems that haven't been observed before like like to location management, we are very much used to handovers in on terrestrial networks handle with with satellites with mobile nodes is something very different. The paradigm is rather different. Of course, we can use conventional approaches like anchor anchor based approaches that we have on the left side, but we may also have virtual anchors or we may have cell free constructs with that only depends on the connectivity in matrices. So what I'm trying to say is some of the assumptions that we have been considering about the network deployments may not hold on anymore, so we need to be careful about all these. Finally, what will happen in the in the future? First of all, one question that pops up should we decide between RF and FSO? Or should we make use of both of them in a hybrid manner? This is a question that we need to address soon and we have taken this from a paper that we prepared for IEEE Transactions on communications. I forgot to update this it is actually published in the February issue, and it's about 70 pages long. So if you're ever interested in the future space networks, I can provide you the link and then finally the standardization directions is there's a some form of work is already there most of the work needs to be done. We I mentioned about the mobility management but this also extends to other kinds of issues like spectrum management, cultural solutions, intelligent management and orchestration the software defined networking and network function virtualization approaches and finally the routing that we are still looking for problem solution for this problem. So the full integration needs more of it most studies, it was standardization and finally again for the from the same paper this is what we are thinking that will happen in the in the near future deep vertical networks where we have this interplanetary network between all these network clusters is a elements and this is one thing is different here than than the mega constellation paradigm that I kept talking about. We may have satellites that are forward facing deep space and then we will have satellites that are facing Earth and then we may have multi domain multi directional satellites as well which we don't actually have at this point and yeah, the mobility management is is one of the problems that I'm I'm thinking about a lot and the unprecedented scenario that that that is basically yeah, we don't actually have a solution at the moment. It's a very good time to start looking into satellite research. And again, the spectrum management is something along with standardization global standardization, ITU is evolving these dates, selection of new frequency bands as a agenda item in WRC. So, this is also very active field

and how will we be able

to address these solutions? I think the answer is hidden in the cross layer design. And the conventional design solutions that we are we have been using will be inadequate. So at some point, we need to start a stop C not exploiting the physical layer information in the higher layer. So we should have a combined design there. And finally, listen, these are the slides that I just added. Today for for this talk the What about the security there are so many security problems and I tried to get some of them with all five search words and we started looking at the eavesdropping scenarios, most of the time but but here's a one thing that we didn't actually look at at all that is the use of these high altitude platform stations as

an attacker

so this is basically some of the results that I have from my previous work of course. So this is what we have seen the first of all, if you use a high altitude platform station or collect information, we can significantly improve the security and secrecy level that is offered by this kind of system. We saw this is good for if you want to send information from the East to opera that are done down on the ground. This kind of solution is certainly useful again, is from a

conference from 2021. The construct that we looked at is to use of

visual eavesdroppers along along their high altitude platform station there. So these are also prone to attacks like that there may be other mobile devices around the high altitude platform station and these high altitude platform stations may interrupt one another. And for those we have, we think like a connection between the satellite and the high altitude platform station. If it's like a free space optical then it's more more robust or more more secure, I say. And finally, we started we looked at the problem where the

mobiles

device I say we adopt as spacecraft eavesdropper around the satellite that can capture the data and depending on the position or first we have shown that it is possible to do eavesdropping attack. So those are all the security vulnerabilities that we may need to address in the future. So to conclude, with the integration of these networks, the 6G will leave. Hopefully we'll leave no one behind. Everybody will be connected. And there will be new networking elements like high altitude platform stations and new frequency bands like terahertz that can help us with the communication problems and we need to define the interactions of sub networks and it's to define these interactions it's very likely that the the machine learning approaches we become see, it will become like a useful solution. I would like to thank all my collaborators Helene unicameral all five artists name a lamp ah block who shot Muhammad and all other collaborators and if you have any questions I would be happy to answer them. Thank you

gonna shoot

this is that was wonderful. Thank you. Let's open it up to questions. Anybody have a question? If you're going to turn on your camera

your I have a question. Go ahead

and record a wait.

How will you integrate into the city the networks the light networks

very good question. Pizza is the the intelligence is envisioned in multiple steps in the first first part of this integration is just like the satellites are acting as relay nodes but in later stages satellites are planned to be acting as again, base stations, almost like standalone base stations and then we will also have according to the plans, we will have macro diversity so we'll have multiple base stations that are connecting to one user equipment on the ground.

So sorry, what is the first step?

The first step is satellite is a relay solution is station just forwarding without doing any kind of decoding

so it will forward traffic using from protocols like CVS.

Very good. Yeah. That is not certain yet.

Okay, yeah, because I I met Professor Mark Handley. In sickle. It sounds like he's in UCLA. And it seems like he is long. The assumption tutions but not none of them. Like the ultimate one was a final one. So as I

said, the current satellite networks that we have are very much separated from the terrestrial networks. So yeah, they did the 3G PPS, preparing some steps. In this multi phase structure so that the integration will be

possible. Thank you very much. Thank you. Can you please put your email address in the chat? Yes, of course. Thank you.

George, you want to ask your question?

Yeah, I was wondering. I assume that your your tour but there's some drag from the 10 atmosphere, that altitude. So my question is, how long are these lower orbit satellites expected to stay in orbit? Very good question.

I don't I'm not an expert on this field. So I don't want to speculate but, but also to like come with their own lifespans. And that's the question that I'm also trying to understand how like once we deploy all these and their lifetime lifespans and what what will we do with it? I'm not sure if the solution is the there is this sensible space development, philosophy, but it seems like the commercial companies are actually following that. Some of them, some of them, some of them are some of the minor.

Anon Do you have a question? In the chat? Do you would you like to ask your question? Oh, yeah,

I think that was a pretty basic straightforward question. I mean, we talked about this pretty large antenna, satellite 64 square meters. Then the idea is that you're trading off the antenna gain at the terminal to the antenna gain at the at the satellite is that is that the understanding?

Exactly. That is that is exactly what's happening in that model. But the the issue is, we don't know how many of these centers we can use in the orbit. And they Yeah, all these like, it's so far it's holding on? Well, depending on. Yeah, but there are so many unanswered questions. It's like a trial and flee not an error trial trial for sure. Hopefully.

Yeah. Are these emptiness phase two, the emptiness? I mean, are they like, do they beam form and point to a specific terminal on the earth?

I believe so. Okay.

I had a question on the freespace optic link. You know, optics being what it is, is that likely to suffer from suffer more from attacks or interference like interference from the sun? Because you're you can you can point the beam at a satellite to jam it relatively easily rather than having to in order to like, spread that energy out. Right. So I just wanted to know your thoughts on

where we can get a historical answer in the I think World War Two, to be able to avoid interception. Just light based communication was used. So if you can align the transmitter and the receiver from security perspective is much better. But it The question is whether we can align them properly or not, as you noted, so it's good if not allowing them then that is that issue or if we are much better return.

Thank you. Thank you

George. My my day Oh, you had a question in the chat.

Okay, let me see if I could find it again here.

Okay, for sure.

S any comments about governance like spectrum allocation orbital locations,

for h a s. SP?

Will it be a challenge?

Yes, it is excellent questions always. Thanks for this the the high altitude platform stations are actually from the governance side. Itu has a well defined regulations for that, even from 1990 So it's like a paradigm that becomes popular once a once every 20 years. I guess. The the issue is from the other than itu there is no much not much regulation. And that's basically probably what we are seeing in the news these days.

Sure if it's,

yeah, my, I don't have much more details like myself either.

Anybody else want to ask a question?

So I'll ask him a couple here. So like, should I say because, like, connecting, creating a service or connection between two points on the ground, I guess. We're let's say that and with this feeling like an Ethernet protocol approach to creating services and let me clean customers do Do you have an orchestrator or something that's going to go through and build the connection? Or does the protocols between the two with the IP address create the create the link screw up a lot of this satellites? It seems like a very complicated network to find your you know, it's a huge mess network of seems like it'd be very complicated to find a pass through the network or the best path or the network.

Exactly the especially in congested conditions, that will be a bit more problematic. So, so far, I cannot I don't have a answer on how this is solved. Because seems like all the companies have their own proprietary solutions. But I can actually confirm your observations other complex nature and the so far, even with stationary routers, we are having some some issues to be able to see adjusted scalability now that all the routers are moving in different directions and the the routing tables needs to be updated very rapidly. So I say, Yeah, I can it things will get interesting, for sure.

Oh, yeah. So you're moving at 17,000 miles an hour, kilometers an hour.

27 kilometers, 27,000 kilometers per hour.

And so you're going past a lot of different other other routers, you have to be able to communicate with that router. So you don't have much time to get up the routing tables.

Exactly. So we are so far. The contact routing plan we are trying to see if we can pre store some of these to use to use but the of course that also depends on the the traffic intensity, the congestion levels. So it is it's not that it is not an easy problem. As far as I can see. I mean,

no, I mean, just chiming into that thought isn't a lot of this. No APR, I mean this, this orbits kind of set. Errors deviate from the a priori if you can just address those. Then when occation you already know the table, and you only have to process the interrupts so to speak, whatever it is, what else a surprise. Wouldn't that be the correct correct approach

will be good to the point yes,

that that can certainly be exploited, but how frequently should we update the routing tables and the relative positions of the satellites may change depending on the constellation selected. So if every every node is moving in the same direction and we keep pretty much the same topology it becomes relatively simpler but for the other way around. If the relative distances are not kept the same, then it becomes Yeah. How frequent should we update it? How how large of a routing table should we store and then should we also consider the for example if it's if the satellites are moving just above a very populated urban city center with too much traffic? Should we also use still keep using the same routing table or the or should we prefer the two little relatively less used satellite? Yeah, yep. So there are a couple of details ironed out for sure. Yeah,

just a couple. Yeah.

I had a question but I think you just answered it. The question really, shouldn't we take advantage of the IPR information as to where these things are? established? The routing tables, not dynamically allocate them. Even in that, though, as you point out, there's a high likelihood that something will fall apart in the information that we had.

Yeah, it's that is the idea that we are playing around with Pablo is a to see these contact plants and then if we can make use of the even in simple simulations there are so many additional DD essay control information. Heavy

to be managed.

Thank you.

Probably other questions, but thank you very much. Well, I have a chance, very complex subject and many, many new aspects to it. I'm an amateur radio operator and just just talking to satellite people that talks on satellites that we have is complicated.

Thank you for your comments.

Anybody else have any questions? Although Do you have any questions?

To give us the present Yes, of

course I can. I can I can send it to J

J, J Chitra. Here I just have one common question but amazing is it was amazing talk but I don't fully understand a lot of it technically, but I did want say as a Red Cross volunteer. This is very exciting what she's talking about that that in the future for disasters. The communication could have a whole new arena to help get the communication working through the satellites directly from phones and things like that. So that's that's kind of my my take on this one. This was very exciting to hear that.

Then yeah, that is hopefully that will be the reality and then it will be in really much of a much needed communication channel that will improve robustness of the networks which which failed miserably in the Syrian earthquake.

Right and then and then to hear all these news about people dying in remote parts of mountains and stuff. And to learn to see that in iPhone 14, for who knows maybe in the future, they can directly communicate and get help right away is so more lives can be saved. So that's very exciting. Thank you for this wonderful presentation. I don't understand any of the technical stuff, but just to see you maybe I'll come to Montreal. Thank you. That'd be that'd be it.

This this is alto Cooney. I do have a question first. Very interesting talk very interesting. You mentioned the word simulation, I would imagine. There are literally complex simulations are needed to understand and plan these networks are the simulators essentially something built from the ground up or are there any kind of actual products that are available to come close to being able to simulate these kinds of

this? There are some simulators that are looking at the A part of these problems. So okay, isolating a small problem and looking at it and then I remember that I think last year European Space Agency has some projects or call for proposals for how to construct their on select later. So it's not available as of now but I think is under development and we will have it in a in about a year or so.

Probably a whole field in and of itself.

Yeah, exactly. It was just the call for project proposals was just for the simulator. The algorithm not for the technical solution, just the simulator.

Okay, thank you.

Another question brought up by Can I ask it just go ahead.

How How involved?

How is terrain? This this this really brought up like the emergency management thing really brought up a question. In Puerto Rico. We had a lot of geostationary satellites really high but they were low on the horizon. We couldn't you couldn't get them because the the the mountainous terrain, slop direct pass. I would think that that's a completely different problem in low altitude satellites with with the visibility is going to be changing much more rapidly in a in its terrain part of the equation in the analysis. That's my question

for you to be able to get realistic models of where you're at the elevation angle has has an impact. On the signal propagation. And there are these models especially itu has a number of models that consider this. But in addition to the terrain, as you mentioned with the newer satellites, the the issue is like yeah, your satellite is off in the continental North America in about seven minutes. So it's like things are moving rather fast. So the this for example, I can see it you say that the this whole initiations the authentication the one white man like authentication approaches are all of I will become problematic, when we are counting fully integrated terrestrial networks of course, when I when I have a sort of propriety terminal, then they come up with tracking algorithms and they are fine but if we if we want to integrate multiple satellite constellations to one another, then we have to worry about all these in addition to the SNR conditions from Terry.

I muted myself that you're meant to ask a question because I'm editing where geosynchronous orbit satellites were being considered for this. wondering if you could compare how that might be advantageous not advantageous or what was the thinking. It did did

your satellites they have their own purpose is exactly with the with say, very large footprints,

but the

did the packet loss is so high about them and also the round trip times. Make it very unsuitable to be used. With other sorts of services which require longer delays. However, I am envisioning that teachers have their own purpose to be able to for example, if you can take some of the control plane information like the routing tables and all those things to the GEO satellites and they can coordinate the LEA satellites that may be a harmonious work way of working with them, but other than that deals are good for on real time applications for for certain, but for high data rate, transmission. scenarios. They are really difficult to work with.

Okay, it doesn't make sense. Thank you. One more question.

This is probably a radio question more than a networking question. But in the space communication scenario, we're dealing with all kinds of strange velocities. So Doppler shift, is that a, an issue or is that just something left thought left that or radio

to solve?

Very good question. So I think that is important then and I went with one of my students we came up with the with the idea in a paper that whether we can use this Doppler shift to be able to identify the spacecrafts from one another because it's such a unique pattern. The issue is if it's predictable, that is excellent. If it's not predictable, then there's a huge like, if it's predictable, then it can be compensated. Otherwise big problem, as you mentioned. Thank you that was

just a follow up on that is what about timing? I mean, you have you have objects at different at different altitudes, you're going to have different times does each thing need its own cesium clock in it.

That would be the ideal solution. Unless we are talking about this cube sats extremely small satellites. The when we are considering for example synchronization between these devices that is also an issue because relative distances between each of them is changing with time and that all depends on their orbital characteristics

was again

the projects as far as I know that are trying to address this, the timing issue and also there are some works that are trying to use near satellites. The with the predictable obvious of course, for some sort of GPS like solution GNSS solutions but yeah, overall. We like if if we want to make them co ordinate with one another. We don't know how to synchronize them yet. Would you say

a little bit more about you call them reflect reflective intelligence surfaces. Can you say a little bit more about what what that is?

Exactly how we would be happy to actually design a reflect. If we use metal surfaces as reflectors, then we can actually control the reflection or so that we don't have to obey Snells law of reflection when we are transmitting the when we are reflecting a from the surface. So if we have two surfaces with controllable faces, reflection faces what we can do is we can try to use this kind of reflection to generate multiple sets that add constructively as a nation. So this is a way of like, like, using Yeah, it's almost like using your mirror and then we can change the initial angle of the mirror so that we can reflect the signal to the desired destination. So that seems promising space communication scenarios, because there's no reflections. There's not much multipath around.

So this is free space optics. This is satellite to satellite or satellite ground.

Could be way and that's the deflected mode. It's mostly studied interesting works as well like there are some suggestions to correct for example, building surfaces with intelligent surfaces so that we can ever win corridors. But personally, I think from satellite to satellite, it has a very promising application.

So with that being multi hop you use one satellite is of service. So you can communicate from one place to another. Why not go directly? Why do you need to reflect off of one

to another?

A good question. If there are so many of them. That was that was our starting point if there's so many satellites, and then each of them have their own purpose and then if there's an additional surface that can be used to reflect the transmission. So so that's that's why we came up with that construct. We are still trying to publish it so it's just we are strapped commerce reverses. So I see the validity of your points.

Sure. I mean, if you if you did reflections you can use that as if every satellite was reflecting.

Like a Tyson horse.

Maybe that's a way of doing synchronisation. Oh, cool. I've

seen anything like that.

Be Okay.

Could this also be used? Like, like a corner reflector lesson, you shine a light at something it'll send it back to you? Would that be one way of making satellites less reflective to rate to optical astronomy or radio astronomy except that you might blind the satellites? Above you if you're reflecting on the light back, back out maybe at the sun.

That is That is very true. So we have to think about it from all all possible sectors around it. So there are all these risks. associated with it. That is true. So I

can't wait keep the satellite close. And maybe make make keep the sky skies dark or reduce the thermal load solar load on the satellite and still keep by reflecting the light back to the sun.

Not and that

will maybe make astronomy more more possible.

Exactly. So as I said, there is a bit like any kind of reflector that is put up in the sky that is changing the day us are in a measurement. So that needs to be recalibrated based on that as far as I understand.

Okay, because it's light pollution from cities on on the on the earth is a real problem for radios or optical Astronomers now their light levels are above threshold where they wouldn't be built there today, I guess the

real problem. Yeah. So so so I think Spaceworks so far has been trying to address these problems with their own solutions. But overall as space is getting congested, we should find a better solution

for all this

with the holding forward. Way Excuse me. When you said holding forward approach to DT was a T working how much how much memory is required for staff

oh that is also a good question like how?

Like it depends on

like yeah, how wide we need to consider the routing tables. So if we should we do routing for the whole constellation or just the cluster of it? And if they if it's only for one cluster, do we change the elements of the cluster? So we are trying to look at these problems at the moment and we don't have a clear solution at present.

So don't always need to buffer the data as well. But there seems like they'd be able to do that. It seems like it would take a lot of a lot of memory with high data rates that you want to push through them Right

exactly. Then you would that this will be like it for I think if he also we need to provide some quality of service there that the problem gets even more complicated.

These aren't going to be small satellites. Then right? They're going to be pretty monstrous things, right? Yeah.

Not only from the antenna perspective for but from the payload perspective as well. For sure. It's,

it's like putting a whole a whole cloud cloud in the sky. Right? A whole network. Exactly. Put an AWS in and put it in orbit.

And then based on that they I think IBM also also has there and then Microsoft is also considered space, data centers. Competition, offloading spaces also. Yeah, we may see that

Yeah. Yeah, Google Cloud,

Google space, something like that. Yeah. Wow.

Anybody else have questions? All right, I'm gonna stop recording.

Recording stuff.

Okay, now, does anybody have questions that please feel free to ask questions without the recording going?

Oh, sure.

live streamers. Thank you so much for joining us tonight. We'll work with work with you to make history more of our our programs and the future.

Thank you, bye

thank you very much. Thank you.

Thank you. Very inspiring. I'm ready to come and meet meet you in person. Thank you.