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E79_ Legitimizing Situated Knowledge in East Palestine | Otter.ai

E79_ Legitimizing Situated Knowledge in East Palestine

Helberg, Alexander J.1h

Helberg, Alexander J.

00:23

Hello everyone and welcome once again to another episode of reverb. My name is Alex Helberg. And I'm joined on the mic as always by my co-host and co-producer Calvin Pollak. How's it going, Calvin?

Calvin Pollak

00:34

Doing good, Alex, how about you?

Helberg, Alexander J.

00:35

I'm doing very well especially excited today because we have not one but two experts, guests that we have here on the podcast today. The first I am proud to introduce is Erin Brock Carlson, whose research centers on the relationship between police technology and power, focusing on how communities work together to address complex public problems through communication and community organizing. Her current projects include documenting the experiences of West Virginians affected by natural gas pipeline development, advocating for access and distribution of ethically collected and curated public health data and developing police based methods for community engagement. Pedagogy. Erin, thank you so much for being with us here today on re:verb.

Dr. Erin Brock Carlson

01:18

Absolutely. I'm excited to be here.

Calvin Pollak

01:19

As Alex said, we have a second guest guest slash old friend here today. This is super exciting. We're joined back on the mic by Sophie Wodzak, co producer of reverb here and also, crucially, author of a recent New York Times article from February 16, called "Federal officials send help after Ohio derailment. But residents' frustrations persist." And so we're so excited to talk to both of you about how your work overlaps. Yeah. And just have really rich conversation about situated knowledge and environmental crisis.

Sophie Wodzak

01:56

I'm excited. I'm happy to be here. It's gonna be fun.

Helberg, Alexander J.

01:59

Absolutely. So as Calvin alluded to, the topical focus of our conversation today is going to be on the Norfolk Southern a freight train derailment in East Palestine, Ohio, a major freight derailment that occurred releasing a polyvinyl chloride, a toxic chemical, there was a fear of an explosion. And so there was a controlled release of those chemicals into the atmosphere into the ground and into the water that has raised a lot of controversies on a number of different fronts. But I think before we get into the specifics of that we wanted to talk to Erin a little bit. Could you tell us a little bit about your background, where you come from as a scholar, looking at environmental advocacy movements, environmental crisis communication from a technical communication perspective, and then maybe how did that shape your perceptions of the East Palestine, Ohio train derailment?

Dr. Erin Brock Carlson

02:50

Absolutely. So before I talk a little bit about that, I just wanted to orient myself in place because part of what I study is place. And so my connection, so I'm a professor at West Virginia University and Morgantown, West Virginia. And so I'm deep. You know, I'm in the northern middle part of Appalachia. But my family's from southeastern Kentucky, I grew up in the Cincinnati area. So like, just to touch over. And so I've always been really connected to I grew up in a rural community, also north of Cincinnati. It's not rural anymore. It's like a suburban hellscape. But, you know, it was rural when it happened. Yeah, yeah. There's an Ikea now. So it's like, yeah, that's yeah.

Helberg, Alexander J.

03:32

That's usually the bellwether?

Dr. Erin Brock Carlson

03:33

Yeah, exactly. But so placed is something that has been really important to me throughout my life, but I guess I just didn't realize it, it was that that's what was like, drawn me back to projects again, and again and again. And so when I was living in the Midwest and working on my PhD, I was like, I care about rural communities, and where's my family from like, a deeply rural region that is misrepresented and maligned constantly. You know, JD Vance, which, Sophie, I know, he's mentioned a few times in your article of now Senator of Ohio. But you know, yeah. But, you know, Hillbilly Elegy came out, and it was just like this, it was almost, I don't want to say that my scholarly trajectory went off because of that, but it was just very a timely, sort of ancillary to what those narratives were doing. So I'm happy to talk about that more later. But anyway, so my specialty is technical communication. I'm really interested in the spaces where technical communication happens that we often don't see as technical communication. So specifically community organizing, so most of my research has to has been participatory or community based projects with community organizers in Appalachia. So the first big one that I worked on was one about economic transition in Appalachia. So this idea that, you know extractive industries, regardless of the narratives around things like coal, they will they are no longer dominant. And so what's going to happen right with these communities that were previously dependent on one extractive industry. And so from there, it's just kind of blossomed into all these other projects. And so the pipeline project that I think, really transformed the way that I see environmental communication came from a collaboration with a colleague of mine, here at WVU. Martina Coretta, she's was in geography. Now. She's at Lund University in Sweden, so very different contexts for her now, but a few summer 2020, we went out for the first stage of research, and we went out and we interviewed people that lived next to pipelines in West Virginia. And we talked to, I should have had the numbers I'm sorry, but I believe it's 37, that first summer 37 folks who are living next to pipeline build out and they just had such a range of experiences, many of them negative regarding pipeline development. And when we're talking about pipeline, we're talking about like big gas pipelines, like 12 to 18 inch diameter, very large infrastructure, rendering plants, transmission plants, things like that, just like you're in this idyllic rural area. And then all of a sudden, you've got industrial build out, right, which is something people never anticipated never expected. They purposely meno many of the folks purposely moved out into the middle of nowhere to be in the middle of nowhere, right. And then they had all these concerns, ranging from things like light or sound pollution, to things like explosion or leaks, or mudslides, from erosion, just all of this different stuff. And so, thinking in those spaces, like the thing I want to that that I think really drives the way that I've thought about the situation and these palaeocene is these people have expertise like these people are living next to this build out that people nice Palace seen her living next to the the fallout from this derailment. And their experiences are often devalued, because they're not technical experts, right? But they're the ones that have witnessed it. They're the ones that are there, water is a brown color, but the tests say it's okay. You know, it's stuff like that, where it's, you know, juxtaposing their accounts, I think is like, really important. And it's really, unfortunately, political work to do that, to amplify these stories, when in a space where I don't think it should be I think it should just be like, Yeah, this is the experience, we should honor these people's experiences.

Helberg, Alexander J.

07:48

Yeah, I wanted to zone in on specifically that article that you touched on with Martina corretta the the concept of situated knowledge, could you tell us a little bit more about what that means, from your perspective as a researcher as well as you know, what that means to these advocacy groups? And specifically, why it's important to do this work of legitimizing, like, what is the what is the purpose of legitimizing situated knowledge? What is involved in that process? And why is it crucial? Like why are there forces that are trying to de legitimize that knowledge?

Dr. Erin Brock Carlson

08:20

Yes, absolutely. So, if we think about kind of the dynamics that we saw is there's this like epistemic authority, this, you know, that, you know, Martina and I, as researchers, right, we have this PhD, we have this field of experience, we have this body of knowledge, we have this particular authority, knowledge authority, right? But so do the surveyors that come in and make maps of the land, so do the EPA expert, so do lawyers, right, because this, especially when it comes to, you know, gas and oil or any sort of that meant anything that involves minerals or mineral rights or in terms of transportation, you know, building a railroad stuff like that, like the geography of the land is really important. So you have you know, engineers you have all sorts like, like I said, surveyors you have all these people that have this knowledge because they have a particular degree or background. But there's also what we're advocating for is more authority given to that situated knowledge that lived knowledge that experience that you know, when you're living next to something and you are experienced it, it is like shaping your mental and your physical health every single day. Like that situated that's not something that an engineer or a doctor can come in, in embody, right? But that's something that you have to live. And so that's what we're talking about situated knowledge. It's that play space. It's that embodied history, like lots of these people have lived on their land for, you know, decades. And so they saw firsthand the way that the land change too. And that's not something that an engineer can capture in a measurement, right? So really thinking about that, and then valuing that sort of knowledge as equal or even, in some cases greater to, at this, like learned knowledge or expertise, and seeing that knowledge as expertise

Calvin Pollak

10:27

Thinking about Sophie's reporting, in this article from February, that's really the contrast that that I saw as being so compelling in the article is kind of there's I mean, so on the one hand, you have the legitimized, like authoritative knowledge of the EPA, the the, the, the rail company itself, Norfolk Southern, even a little bit, the politicians who are kind of exploiting the situation, versus you have these really compelling interviews with local East Palestinian citizens talking about their skepticism of official claims. And just, I mean, just these, like, gut wrenching emotional experiences of what's been going on so, so I think we wanted to ask you, first of all, just how did how did you get this story? Because I haven't talked to you about that yet. And second of all, what was what was the process like, of interviewing local residents?

Sophie Wodzak

11:29

Sure. Okay, so in terms of getting getting the story, you know, I'm I live in Pittsburgh, and I, which is not far from East Palestine, it's about like a, an hour and 15 minutes north from Pittsburgh, so it's not very far. And, and I'm on the New York Times, roster of freelancers, they have, you know, people all over the country who can go do local reporting. And in cases like these, where there's not, you know, a full time paid reporter maybe that lives right near these small communities where this kind of thing tends to happen, right, because I think the dynamics of all this, like environmental politics isn't really happening necessarily in New York City, or in these big places. But yeah, so they, they called me up and asked if I'd be able to go out there for the day, and I, you know, the stars kind of aligned such that I like was free, and I could go so I was like, Yeah, because I kind of felt, you know, I don't do a lot of report. I'm not like constantly covering things for the times, but in this case, I felt like, yeah, I can make time for it. And I feel like I really need to, like, this is an important, you know, like, to the points you were making Erin, like, it's important to go talk to people and go see it for myself, because it's I, you know, I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm kind of in a place where like, I can't, it's hard to be sure what's going on anymore. You know what I mean? Like, there's been a lot of, there's probably not enough coverage, but there's there was coverage enough at that point that I knew about it, you know what I mean? Like when they call me I, I'd already read about it. You know, a little bit, but uh, so yeah, I drove up there. And the assignment was basically to talk to Well, there was a, you know, JD Vance had a press conference that was happening. So I was trying to catch that. And then the other than catching that press conference, the EPA director was also going to be there and speak at a certain times. So that kind of book ended when I was trying to be there. And an in between, I was just supposed to talk to as many people as I could. So yeah, I just went I just like parks, you know, I kind of navigated I found the Family Dollar in the middle of the town, and I just kind of parked near it and walked around a little bit. There were, it seemed like there are a lot of people around, I was kind of surprised because it was like midday on a Thursday. And, you know, it's a small town. You know, I grew up in the Midwest as well. And I live in Pittsburgh, and I'm, you know, just a little small town. And there are a lot of people, a lot of those people were news, people sitting through a lot of people on the scene. So it was kind of a weird dynamic in the town that day. But I just, you know, I was kind of hanging around and I, I saw these two old ladies coming out of the Family Dollar with groceries, it was like a, an 80 year old woman that are 60 something year old daughter together and chatted with him a little bit. And, you know, just kind of like, if there were people around, I just kind of sign off on him and started talking a little bit. What jumped out at you the most from some of the stories you heard from local residents. There was kind of a weird, like, lack of immediate and a few days had passed, but like these two first, the first conversation I had was with these, you know, older women, and I asked them, you know, did they evacuate? And they said they they didn't because I would have you know, a family member of theirs is on oxygen and it would have been very difficult and so they just sheltered in place. But they just weren't. They were kind of like a you know, I was kind of surprised that they weren't more, you know, fired up about it. And I asked a little bit more about how, you know what, what's going to happen now? And you know, what, what do you want? You know, how do you feel just trying to get an understanding of where they were at with it sort of emotionally, I guess, just to kind of, like, get a get my bearings, I guess with them. And one of them was like, Well, you know, our neighbors trying to get in on a lawsuit, but it was an accident. So it's like, you know what I mean, they were like, we don't need to make a fuss, it was kind of like the main takeaway, which, so, so I thought that was kind of a because I spoke to several, you know, middle aged oral or slightly older residents. And fewer, you know, younger people, I think maybe we're more like, at, at work and at school, because it wasn't all the day. But I just talked to some younger people as well. So the older people seemed like, they just weren't very concerned for them selves, so much like, but then if I asked about, you know, their children or their grandchildren, they were like, well, they, you know, they're, they're getting out here, they're not here or there, you know what I mean? Like, they're, they just have several of the older people I talked to were like, yeah, it's probably not. They weren't thrilled, obviously about it, but they weren't concerned for their own immediate safety, they kind of a few of them basically said something along the lines of, you know, I'm too old for this to really hurt, you know, hurt me in the long term, sort of thing like it was, they all kind of thought this is going to have a long term impact. But, you know, that was, that was the older residents. And then the younger ones didn't really, um, I don't know, I spoke to two young high school girls who work for their, their high school news cast, you know, and they were they're trying to talk to JD Vance. After his press conference, I talked to them a little bit. And they were, they were really their main, their main thing was about how proud they were of their community for like, coming together to like, arrange the town hall and, and you know what I mean, like, that was like, really, like, they were very proud of the mayor. They were, they kept talking, like, and one of them was saying, like, now people know, now people know our town like East Palace. You know, people know what that is. But now it's not just the town next to that slightly bigger town with a slightly more well known high school, you know what I mean? Like, now they know, like, there was it was sort of like the point of the derailment was not a source of pride. Exactly. But they're, you know, they were taking a very optimistic like, come together, sort of,

Dr. Erin Brock Carlson

17:24

I don't know if so many takes, right. Yes.

Sophie Wodzak

17:27

Yeah, it was just kind of a strange. But then there were a lot of people also too angry a lot about, you know, this one guy, it's like, just bought a house and he's like, What am I going to? How am I going to, who am I going to sell this house to now like, this is worth nothing like property owners are, I think, pretty aggravated about that. And then also a lot of concern for the children of the town, like, I'm going to tell my kids to move away, I'm going to tell my kids not to buy property here. Like that's, like, and that's sort of, for me, one of the saddest things is that like, because this happened, like, that kind of decides it. Like that's, there's like, is there a future for this town? The consensus seems like no, and like, among the older residents, like, well, I'm already, you know, past my prime, I'm already, you know, in my later years, so, you know, whatever, but like, no, young people will not stay here, they will go away. And like, and so, I don't know, there's just something very kind of sad about that, because it seems so hard to like, if there's any merit in like, you know, having that kind of, like, multigenerational community. There's, there's, you know, it just seems like for now, in that town, probably not anymore. And that just is... I don't know if that, for me was like sort of the saddest like seeing a big picture about it. When I was talking to everybody, because they just didn't they all kind of seem to like, whether they were like upset, or more passive. They were like, they all kind of knew that. Does that make sense?

Dr. Erin Brock Carlson

19:00

Yes. And I just want to say that even though when I was out in West Virginia, talking to people about pipeline stuff, very different context in terms of like, you know, the derailments a moment of crisis, right, and you're there directly in the aftermath, whereas like, pipeline development is a process that takes years, months and years, and it's really extended. I heard this Sophie, I heard the same dynamics, like somebody in several people we interviewed said this. So these are their words, not mine, but they talked a lot about a sense of fatalism that they see in the region as a whole that comes from the continued presence of industry and the prioritization or sorry, prioritization of industry over community right so like, regardless of what's coming in, if it's Norfolk Southern, if it's, you know, Dominion energy, if it's, you know, whatever And Taro or intera, whatever it is, it's like, if it's coal, if it's timber, if it's good So if it's transport, like, whatever it is, they're gonna come in, they're gonna do what they want. And they're gonna leave, and we're just gonna still be here. And like, that's the vibe. And that is it. So it like breaks my heart to hear that that's exactly what you've heard. They are also because it's like, what do you deal with that and that intergenerational stuff you were talking about? What's so heartbreaking about that is like, you know, when they, when they settled there, if they've been there forever, this was not their original feeling. They wanted their kids to come back, they wanted to pass down their land,

Sophie Wodzak

20:32

To be able to right, like you don't invest generations, in property on land, in the countryside, because you like, feel like it's probably gonna get fucked over. And then you're never gonna like, it's just it's so and the fatalism you were talking about, like, there's just, yeah, kind of this sense that like that. Not, I hope, not that they don't deserve anything, but definitely that they're not going going to get anything like, because I asked these two high school girls, right, like, you know, if they evacuated, because they're supposed to, and they said, Yeah, they, you know, they were they stayed in the hotel a couple times over for, I don't know, four nights or something. And I asked, Who paid for that? And, and they were like, well, you know, my parents did. And I asked if they had any plans are the quota. Is there any interested in? Do you feel like you're entitled to be reimbursed? But you know, do you mean like, is that on you? And they're like, Well, we're financially we're fine. So, so we don't, we're not gonna ask for any reimbursement, like, you shouldn't have to pay for four nights in a hotel. Because some company thought that was like it, you know what I mean? Like, and part of me wants to be like, No, be mad, like, you should ask for that. But then part of me knows, like, what are the chances of them? You know, what? It's like, it's like, you can understand it because, like, in reality, we know what happens in situations like these. So it's like, yeah, you know, what's the point in getting fired up about this? We're not going to, and that's, it's hard to imagine organizing some sort of collective action in a setting like that. Yeah. Is the problem but that's not that's not the problem. The problem is derailment, but the right an obstacle.

Dr. Erin Brock Carlson

22:17

It is it is at a moment where this could be momentum, right. It's like not catching in the way that one would hope or anticipate it's because people have been disenfranchised and ignored and exploited for so long.

Sophie Wodzak

22:33

Yes, yeah. One interaction that really this is sort of an anecdote that I you know, didn't wasn't included in the the reporting because I've merely watched it happen but I you know, I was getting in my car was starting to rain, I had to head home. It was parked near this little, you know, creek that just runs past behind the mechanic shop in the middle of the, you know, just like small, whatever, just just corner of a little city street in the town. And there was a man from the EPA, who was there. I didn't get his name. I didn't speak to them. But he was, you know, in a full like, hazmat suit. He had like stuff on overshoes, he was like, had various sensors, he was taking readings of the of the creek and, and whatnot. And a woman from the town, who else who didn't speak to you was like, shouting at him following him down the street. She was like, get the fuck out of here. Why are you here scaring these kids like you what, you know, get out of our town, like screaming, screaming at him. And he was just like, ignoring her and walking along. But it was like, so it was like, the last thing I saw, I believe. And it was so stark, because it was like, you know, presumably those two? Like the same? Like she wants what does she want the children to be safe? And for her, that means not feeling scared? You know, what does this person want? What does you've been sent on behalf of, if not the children and their safety long term since the water it's like, they both want the same thing. But they're like, like, for all kinds of reasons, she sees him as the enemy. He she, for him is an obstacle to him getting his work done. Like, even though, you know, at its heart, that's the same concern. Just like coming in very different ways. And like at each other, which is like, that classic thing of like, no, it's you to do, but it's like, no, it's not, it's the train. It's a train, you know what I mean? Like, it's the company. But that was just like, that was really sad to see too because it's, again, it's disheartening. And I'm, I'm so glad to hear about, you know, community organizing being a place where these like technical communication skills are so needed. And so because like, I feel like that's in that context is where like, where I developed a lot of my technical communication skills and it's like, there's a lot of really pressing challenges and and it's like exactly where that where the needs to come into play because like, it's it's just it's such a tricky situation. And in any organizing situation I've been in, it's the same where there are these like, at root, similar motivations that are like somehow just like butting heads, and it's, it can just feel so impossible to like to parse it out and move constructively forward. You know?

Helberg, Alexander J.

25:22

Yeah, that was what I was going to ask you kind of to follow up on that Erin is in your own work. I mean, did you? Did you see people trying to kind of like navigate and negotiate that complacency? Like people who were more fired up trying to be like, Okay, how do we get people to actually garner some momentum here? I don't know. Yeah. What did that if you saw that? What did that look like? How did they kind of negotiate that really challenging kind of fatalism?

Dr. Erin Brock Carlson

25:48

Yeah, that is the question. So. So over the course of so I talked about the first summer we went out. And then the second summer, we had this fabulous graduate, graduate student, Rachel Hood, who did a lot of work actually in eastern Ohio and western PA, too. But they went out. And they were doing the similar research to what we had done the previous summer. And so all in all, we ended up together all talking to like 60 Something people, so this across PA, Ohio, and West Virginia. So I think, you know, we can make some claims about this regionally. But yeah, so community organizing. So some of the very similar dynamics you had, you know, people that were kind of, just like, that is what it is, we had a significant number of people, and you have, like, we were doing snowball sampling. So it was people would refer us to people. So of course, there was probably like a sampling bias in terms, we did talk to a lot of people who were involved in community organizing, because those are the people that are like out there ready to talk to you wanting to talk to you. But in but in terms of the like, dealing with that sort of complacency or that I don't really want to call complacency because like people are upset, but it's like, they just don't know what to do, right. And there's a lack of resources out there for like how to actually get together. And there's also, you know, Sophia, you're talking about these different stakeholders that, like, you've got the company and you've got like, here's an example. So public meetings, for example, when you have like, in terms of, you know, the derailment, or if there's development happening, or any sort of change, you have public meetings, not all public meetings are the same. Some are called by the company, those are very different in format and nature than one that's called by a community watchdog watchdog group, or one that's called by a public officials, right. So it's like even spaces like that, that are supposed to be like democratic or like spaces for people to connect, they are not necessarily that and when somebody goes to something that the company is holding, and it's like three company representatives who don't allow questions, they feel they're like, what's the purpose of this, and they won't go to another community meeting. So the people, you know, people that were really passionate that we're really fired up. I think one of the big takeaways for them was, thankfully, some people did have hope around that sort of like organizing work. But and I think, and I don't know, I just I'm afraid I don't have a good answer for your question. Because one of the stressors for people was this, like generational flight, because there were a lot of people that were older, and they were like, I've been fighting this for 10-20 years. I don't want my kids to come here. I don't know who's gonna take this up next. And so it's like, but then you have young people, the young people we talked to, they were very passionate about it. But it's like, there's a disconnect, like, I don't know, and I don't know exactly how to articulate it, because I think it is situational in terms of like different personalities. But there's definitely maybe even just a shift in the way that we see community organizing happening. And so maybe that's something that I'm I'm still parsing through.

Calvin Pollak

29:04

One concept that I'm that I'm wondering, and I know that both of you have thought a lot about is neoliberalism. Right? Because I know that's come up in some of your work, Erin, and Sophie as a, as an organizer with DSA and other kinds of organizing that you've been involved in. Neoliberalism is, you know, is kind of like the big thing that you're fighting. And I'm wondering how much that is a factor in this, like, younger generational disconnect from movements. This and also, I mean, the idea basically, that a private real company, can, you know, all that cause a disaster like this and just wipe out a town and that's, that's just sort of par for the course. With business. It makes me think about neoliberalism as both an economic engine and something that shapes policy, and how much that affects organizing in these spaces?

Dr. Erin Brock Carlson

30:08

Well, I think one thing, you know how and as you were talking, I was thinking a lot about for situations like this, you know, environmental crisis, environmental change, people living in the wake of it have very personal and like, intimate reactions and connections to that work. And so I think sometimes they like, and this is i, this is my interpretation, but it's like, you see it, and how it affects you. And it's like, You're the main character, and like, the land man, or the person from the EPA, or your neighbor who signed the paperwork to let the pipeline come in, or whatever, like, it's a very personal like, situation. And so it like, I think it can be harder sometimes to see those larger structures at work, not maybe not harder, but it's just like, you're so preoccupied with, like, what happened to you, that it becomes harder to sort of, and then when you're connecting with other people, they want to tell their story of what happened to them. And so sometimes, I think it can be very hard to sort of build to that larger, like, how do we navigate this like, super like, entrenched system that we're all subjected to where the companies have all this power, and they can afford the really fancy lawyers, and they can make sure that there's conflicts of interest with every single lawyer in the state. So maybe there's only like one or two lawyers in West Virginia who might take your case, right. Like, I think I think again, it because it's so personal, that I think it can be difficult to work to that larger. You know, and I will say, with younger people, I heard the word neoliberalism a lot, which is like, good. Right. But I think it's like, what do we do with that? Because it just seems insurmountable. You know.

Helberg, Alexander J.

31:58

Yeah. Goes back to that sense of, you know, the, what is it the was that Margaret Thatcher-ism, "there is no alternative" or you know, that. Yeah, there's, it's, you know, that it's, it's more, I think it was Mark Fisher, who said, "it's easier to envision the end of the world than the end of capitalism," or the end of these kinds of intractable problems that seem to hamstring movements along the way.

Sophie Wodzak

32:21

Yeah, that makes me think about one more thing that when I was talking to these high school girls, I, you know, I was asking them about if they worried about the water and stuff. And one of the things they said was that, you know, the guy who came to test their water was the guy they know, like, I can't remember his name. They're like, Oh, you know, him like, he works here. Like he wouldn't. His kids go here, like, he wouldn't tell us. The water wasn't okay. If it wasn't like, why would he lie? And it's like, that's such a it's so tricky, right? Because it's like, well, what you want is like, No, you shouldn't like what a nefarious like thing like this, like big company, like putting on the mask of this, like local guy who's just like, and like, you don't want to break that trust. Because it's like, it you. You want the community to trust each other. So of course, like, yeah, like, trust that guy? Because you have before and he lives there. Yes. And you know, him. He's part of the community like, yeah, that's, you should trust him. But like, but can you and it's not about that guy. It's about like, what's going on? And so it's such a hard thing to, like, navigate that? Because like, how do you get? I don't know, it's like to point out that you shouldn't trust that information. Seems like it would be damaging to the relationship with that man. And how, how canny and how clever to make that situation. Because the people who are responsible, their faces don't exist there. So it's like they're not real people.

Dr. Erin Brock Carlson

33:42

Right. But in terms of community organizing, and like small towns or rural places, that work looks so different from more populated spaces, and all of the toolkits and all of the resources are created for more populated spaces. And like, yeah, that makes sense. But rural organizing looks different.

Sophie Wodzak

34:01

Yes, it does.

Dr. Erin Brock Carlson

34:03

So to your point, like that personal connection is so important. But it's also difficult, like you can't you know, if you think about organizing weaponize Yeah, exactly. It's like because everything's so entrenched. Right. And it's like, you know, one thing that I, you know, I hope that we can talk about is like, and something a question I had for you, Sophie was like, if people are thinking about, like, the economic, like implications, because I mean, with pipeline development, it's often framed as, like, this is gonna be good for the county. And like, we're gonna get so many jobs and like, you know, if you go to these, you know, oil and gas communities in Central West Virginia, they all have really, really beautiful football fields for the high school. They all have really, really beautiful libraries. They have really beautiful parks that have a little bit here that have a little plaque about like who donated it, and it's usually the gas and oil industry in some way. And then there's also the narrative that is gonna bring jobs and, you know, people we talked to had varying opinions on whether those jobs, you know, were worth it or whatever or what the actual economic impact was. So I was curious if that came up at all, in conversations with the folks you talked to?

Sophie Wodzak

35:16

Well, and that's interesting, too, because that's the difference between something that, you know, some entity plans and can strategize for but like issues along the way, versus something that like, oh, shit, like, yeah, it happens, like a train derailment where nobody, you know, they didn't plan for it not to happen, obviously, but certainly wasn't something that they're trying to sell as a feature. Right. So it wasn't, it wasn't, you know, in that in the case of a pipeline with the other, you know, package incentives, whether or not they're good or bad. That wasn't really a conversation, it was more like, the the Spectrum was how big a deal was it? You know, like, and so whatever, whatever invisible forces are at play to, to making that the framing of the conversation?

Dr. Erin Brock Carlson

36:03

I see.

Sophie Wodzak

36:04

It was just like, you know, was it a big deal? Yeah, kind of Yes, maybe? No, maybe? Yes.

Helberg, Alexander J.

36:10

And I think that I mean, to speak to that point, Sophie, the the notion of, you know, what is the gradient upon which we say how big of a deal this is that is also so contextually rooted in, like a history of policymaking decisions that, again, I mean, this is why I do feel like, you know, bringing in technical communication perspectives is so important for this. Because that kind of critical context, for example, a lot of the reporting, you know, the the sort of media narratives that have circulated around this focus on the EPA standards for, you know, federal action levels, four levels of dioxins in your soil, in your water in your air. And right now, just to cite some, some statistics, the federal action level that Ohio is also sort of mandated, or the that's their standard as well, is I think it's 1000 parts per trillion of dioxins in concentration in a given sample. If you I mean, but if you do a little bit more digging, you learn that, you know, back in 2010, under the Obama administration, the EPA actually had a regulation that was, you know, on offer to lower that lower that threshold, based on current research and science that had been done on the long term health risks of dioxins in, in these samples that said, you know, actually, the federal action level needs to be 72, not 1000, like, it needs to be a very minor fraction of that, that regulation was, you know, killed off back in 2010. And it has gone, you know, there are states that have lowered their action levels to like, you know, I think, you know, in California, there's, it's like 50, or something like that. But realizing that, again, this is kind of this is a challenge, I think for anybody who's doing community organizing, and particularly in rural areas to see that this is not just a an issue of your own person, it is very much an issue of your own personal life and your you know, your stake in the issue your family long term, but it's also something that is being experienced by other people other places, right, like, this is not the first. I mean, you know, this, the one of the things I thought was more fascinating about the East Palestine derailment, was that it called attention to the fact that like, actually, there's a lot of these things that happen every year and not just down. I mean, not just in rural Ohio, but ever, like all over the country. There are, you know, even in just the months prior to the or, in the month preceding that there were two other really high profile derailments and I think Washington state,

Sophie Wodzak

38:50

There have been several, yeah, they just yet.

Helberg, Alexander J.

38:54

But I do wonder the extent to which a news reporting or a technical communication perspective, what the effectiveness might be of connecting the sort of localized issues and the personal experiences of people who are on the ground experiencing that to similar things that are happening elsewhere, sort of helping people understand that this is not just you, your individual loan community experiencing this, but this is a you know, this is a cascading effect of a larger system where these kinds of local problems are being experienced all over the place.

Dr. Erin Brock Carlson

39:28

So a lot of the organizers, a lot of the folks who identify this committee organizers, because that's another thing. People do community organizing work, and they don't identify as community organizers. And when you ask them, they're like, No, I'm just like, connecting my neighbors, you know, and so that's an interesting thing. But it seems like a lot of that knowledge again, and especially for rural spaces, because there aren't a lot of resources out there. It's very much like interconnected in terms of like who you can reach out to and so for instance. You know, in PA, the big pipeline is the Mariner pipeline. And so a lot of folks up there have talked to people down in Virginia, southwest Virginia, or sorry, Virginia, I'll just say about the mountain valley pipeline, which also goes through West Virginia. And so mount like in Virginia, those, that network has been very successful in terms of their environmental activism. And so they, they focus on their talk to people out in Standing Rock, like, there are those connections. But it's getting people tapped into the network, I think, is what people struggle with. Because it's like, if you've never been, like environmentally active or environmentally conscious, and then all of a sudden you find yourself in this space, and you're overwhelmed, and you don't know what to do. And you're just trying to like, make sure your kids are safe and not drinking contaminated water or breathing contaminated air, it's like that next step can be really hard. And it's not to say it doesn't happen, because there were people we talked to who this is what made them I mean, there were several people that were now working for nonprofits doing this sort of work because of their own personal experiences. And they had gotten connected and tapped in and things like that. But yeah, I think I think there's a lot of value in it. And I saw evidence of it and people and that's, you know, and we ended up Martina and I ended up talking to people in North Carolina, who were interested in the work and that sort of thing. And a couple other places. But yeah, I think it does happen. But I just think it's slow.

Sophie Wodzak

41:32

I think that's such a problem. Because I don't know that it's a question necessarily of, of collective awareness. So much as it is of bandwidth. Like, something happens in your community, you need to work to, you know, there's all of a sudden, it's, you know, it takes over your life, and there's all this stuff that you've got to do, in addition to all the things you were already doing, you know, these are not wealthy communities, that people in these communities work and have a lot of, you know, so it's just like, it's it's people, people come together when the situation calls for it. And that happens in the place, you know, but then it's hard to take, like, you don't necessarily have more to give to other places, and you wouldn't necessarily get a community rallied around something that hadn't happened. Yet. It's like you're like constantly like trying to like mend, like leaks, you know what I mean? It's like, you're, you're always playing catch up, because it's like, well, something terrible happened. And now the communities coming together, and over here, now something terrible will happen. But it's like, yeah, by the time you're like, aware enough to be like, charged up, maybe you don't, it's just it's hard to put that all together. Because people just don't have you know, it's just hard. Like, what more could you already give than like, everything you already doing for your own actual, like, family and community? It's hard.

Dr. Erin Brock Carlson

42:49

Absolutely. And there's so much burnout and people you know, people we spoke with talked about that. It was like I can't you know, I because these movements, when they're so localized are personality led, right they have to be there's not a ton of in the so these people are like going door to door talking to their neighbors having really difficult conversations with one another in it's like, at a point, they just don't have any more to give and I I don't blame them like they shouldn't have to be they shouldn't have to be in this situation in the first place.

Sophie Wodzak

43:21

The burden shouldn't be on every small community to like, right fight these Corporation. Like, it's too much. It's, it's and that's what's so hard. Like, I think that if people had the like, space and time and resources that they needed to like, get the full picture of course, like I think there would be a lot less of a problem but it's exactly because these are communities that are already you know, hard pressed in various ways like I'm not trying to be demeaning I just mean you know like small town America is not exactly on the up and up right now. So it's not it's really hard to if something as devastating is like no you can't stay in your home yeah drink the water like to expand any efforts outward would be so much to do

Dr. Erin Brock Carlson

44:11

Well, and the economic burden what you were saying simply about those girls saying like okay, well we you know, our parents paid for a hotel we all went to buying bottled water, not cooking with you know, like buying an air filter, all that stuff is like an undue economic burden. But people should not and that in addition to just the uncertainty, one thing I did want to say was one of the biggest things I think about a lot is just like over half of the people we talked to said that in the event of like an explosion, which was their number one fear is rare. They happen they do happen, but like as rare as pipeline explosions are that's very scary. So over half of the people we talked to said they didn't have a direct contact. They had a one 800 Number that maybe they could leave them message or they didn't have anything at all, or the the land man. So the person that's like come around to work with them on their contracts and stuff that that person changed. And they didn't know the new person, like the lack of security people feel with like, what do I do if a crisis occurs, combined with, like the economic burden of or paying for your own testing, because a lot of people don't trust the company tests. And so then you have to pay for your own testing. And then what do you do when the test comes back different? So it's like this, like mental, the mental load of this is so incredible, that that just the capacity is not there for folks. And it's totally understandable why that is, and it's just like, a very harmful dynamic.

Calvin Pollak

45:49

Yeah. And I just have one one other question related to kind of the broader politics of this, when you're facing these challenges, like these economic challenges is every day informational burdens, the uncertainty in these kinds of situations, it makes these situations really ripe for exploitation by both political actors and like media actors. And so I'm thinking especially about in your story, Sophie, like the politicians who are quoted in this story are not people who I liked very much. It's people like JD Vance. People like West Virginia Senator Joe Manchin. And so, so there's that element to it. And the thing that kept striking me when when all of this was happening was like, since when is something like this partisan? Like I know, that's a naive question to ask, but why is this being framed in a partisan way? By the media, when it's really just a disaster that's affecting, you know, poor rural people? Like, why should I care about, like, the party politics of it. And I found that very disturbing that it seemed to be like, but so one of the things that I appreciate about your reporting, and what you've been telling us today is just getting this on the ground sense that like, they don't really see it as this like, charged up, like polarized media thing. They're just like, Yeah, this kind of sucks. I don't know what to do. I'm just trying to live my life, right? Day by day, but like, why? So did you get a sense of that polarized reaction at all on the ground? Or was it just like, that's a totally external thing?

Sophie Wodzak

47:37

Yeah. It wasn't really about any Nobody. Nobody mentioned Democrats or Republicans? Nobody said anything about that. I think it was, yeah, it was like, how, how, you know, what were they going to do? And what did they deserve? And it was about them? It wasn't, there's not a lot of like polarization in the town, like people are, it's a community and there's people are on kind of a wavelength like, not to say there aren't any political disagreements at all. But um, yeah, that wasn't really like part of what people were, like, charged up about when I was there, you know?

Dr. Erin Brock Carlson

48:10

Yeah. And I'll say for, for my experiences, it's much more about local politics. Like very rarely did people talk about national trends. It was much more like, I don't trust the county commission, you know, like, you know, stuff like that, where, rather than talking about I mean, you know, and I was in West Virginia, I don't think mansion came up once. Like, I don't you know

Calvin Pollak

48:34

He went to East Palestine or at least commented on it, because it was a spectacle to exploit.

Sophie Wodzak

48:42

Yeah, and so they were talking about them that like the the, the girls I ran into, were interested in like, seeing these like politicians who they turned up, like, be there in person, like, you know, that's more of like an event in the town, I guess. But like, I don't know, if anyone, like the so many people were trying to get JD Vance to say, like, do you think the water is safe to drink? Do you think it's safe to drink? You know, and he was like, I you know, if I was being safe to drink bottled water, and drink bottled water for now, just to be extra safe. Like, and it seemed more about, like scoring that like soundbite that to say was it was it? Okay, like, but like, what's that really going to do? Like whether or not JD Vance says he's fine with drinking tap water in East Palestine?

Dr. Erin Brock Carlson

49:22

Speaking of expertise, like what expertise does he have? That I'm sorry, you're you're not a scientist.

Sophie Wodzak

49:29

Right? Like, why would why would it matter? You know, it just is. Yeah, it's, um,

Dr. Erin Brock Carlson

49:34

I really wanted to dunk on JV Vance.

Helberg, Alexander J.

49:36

Oh please, take any opportunity.

Dr. Erin Brock Carlson

49:38

And that was the moment for me.

Calvin Pollak

49:40

That was the point of this question. I just wanted to give you both the chance to dunk on these policies. Yeah.

Helberg, Alexander J.

49:48

Yeah, no, and I think I mean, we're probably I mean, you know, we're probably not coming to a resolution here about like, what is to be done about these, uh... Which is I mean, I don't think that was our purpose coming in here either. But I mean, what has been revelatory to me throughout this conversation is the way that we can better understand the contours of issues like rural organizing, like what are some of the obstacles and impediments, particularly when this kind of becomes its own, its own kind of spectacle that gets taken up by national news media, to the point where, you know, the conversation is now becoming more about like, were there Russian bots that were trying to influence like the, an anti American narrative of it's like, what this is so external to the actual lived experiences of the people who have been ground down by, you know, decade's worth of the effects of this kind of deregulation? And I mean, I still think that it does, you know, even for those of us that don't live in rural areas, you know, and I promise I'm not trying to make this just one big argument that says, go out and vote, but it is kind of a, you know, it's something to keep in mind like hearing these these stories of people who are experiencing this firsthand on the ground, feeling that sense of, again, not complacency, but just like a an understanding nation. Yeah, yeah. And understandable. fatalism or resignation. And, and knowing that that's, that's the challenge, right, that the challenge is to be able to, you know, restore a sense that another world is possible that it doesn't like, you know, we didn't have to have this federal regulation set at 1000 parts per trillion, there was a time there was an opening where it could have been backed down to 72. And there could have been, like, actual really important legal action that took place here. Whereas now, you know, Norfolk Southern, maybe has more grounds to say, well, we didn't pass that Do you know, it's only 700 parts per trillion in the soil, it's not going to be a problem, like we are not legally liable for this. So I think by putting our focus back on and, you know, again, borrowing Erin's language of actually legitimizing the stories, and the experiences of people who are experiencing this at a local level, is really critical for you know, for all of us who are trying to understand what these policies what what impact federal policies might have on us one day, right, and the kinds of things that we all maybe need to be prepared for whether or not we live in a rural community or in a more populated area.

Dr. Erin Brock Carlson

52:26

So much, like even what I said about like, how is JD Vance? Like, you know, how is he qualified to rule on that? Like, I think that the way that we oftentimes think about expertise is it's like, ranked, like who's the ultimate expert, like, whose knowledge is the most valuable? Whose is the most legitimate? Right? And I don't know that I don't, I think coming out of this, like, that's not a valid, like, that's not a productive lens, like multiple knowledge, like, you can layer them, like they can work together, like, and I was thinking, you know, Alex, we talked about kind of, like legal proceedings, and like, that's something else that, you know, this stuff is really complicated. And, you know, when we come back to, you know, different types of expertise, or like, you know, you've got like, the environmental measurements and things like, what does that mean? Like, that's really confounding, when people get their test results back from their well, water? What do these numbers mean, you know, like that interpretation is so important. But it's also like, if you're going to try and like navigate legal documents and contracts, that's really complicated, too. And so it's like, when you think about these people who, you know, we talked to folks who literally had and shared pictures with us of brown water, and the test came back and said, like, it's safe to drink. And it's like, I'm not, I'm not gonna drink this brown water. Like, I know what, you know, it's like, I'm not going to even though it's safe. So it's like, people are always I think, trying to legitimize their experiences. And so it's through these formal channels. And so I think it's like trying to juxtapose like, for me, I think a moment of hope is kind of like, if you can get people together. And if you can, you know, create spaces or create resources or create opportunities for people to try and juxtapose different types of knowledges or different types of expertise, or get experts out there that can help people interpret things that maybe, you know, they, I mean, I certainly I can't interpret those test results. Like I have to sit down with somebody, like when people shared them with us. We were like, We don't know what the hell this is, like. You know, but yeah, I just I don't want to like end on a poor, you know, just kind of because it is it does feel overwhelming and insurmountable. But like, I think there are moments, right, where people can come together and where people you know, there are, you know, asking people if they feel hope for the future. There were people that said yes, because they had built networks and like, Yeah, this is a daunting task. Just trying to keep our community safe. But if we're not fighting it who's going to, you know? I think reporting, like Sophie's is part of that, because it validates these people's experiences. And I think that's key, right? Because more people read your article Sophie than anyone will ever read anything I ever wrote, You know what I mean? So like, right, that's important. It's a frustrating thing.

Sophie Wodzak

55:23

Yeah, I feel like I, that's so much of my work, because I work in research communications, right. And so like, you know, my colleagues will spend months on something, and then I, you know, write something very, very much quicker about it. And that gets way more circulation. But it's all in service of like, pointing to like, that's, if you want the answers, like, that's, this is where you can go. And I feel like that's why, you know, I yeah, that's why it was important for me to go out there. Because it's like, I want I want to see it with my own eyes. You know, and I just think that, like, I think we all are in a situation where we feel like, there's not so much we can do to move the needle. But, you know, if exposing stories like that, and like amplifying the actual lived experience, so that maybe in the next town over like, hey, that's Oh, you know what I mean? Like, that's what it takes to get people to connect the dots. Like I think there's, it's very hard to do a mass action that like, reaches people, but it's that little like, bit by bit, that spread of awareness that like helps to normalize the conversation. So it's not you being like, you know, you can't talk about that. This is something that we talk about, like, is your water safe to drink? And what are people doing about it? Like, yeah, you should talk about that. Let's all talk about that. So I feel like the, that's for me, I've just kind of that's, if I can help do that in any way. That's something.

Calvin Pollak

56:48

Sophie, I think that you demonstrated a method that I find really inspiring, which is like, give people that, that microphone to talk about their experiences. And regardless of what it shows, because I found it interesting that the first experiences that you shared with us on this conversation, were kind of like, almost like not what you were expecting, like it was like, it was like, Yeah, I don't know. Shit's fucked up. We don't know what to do. And, but that even that is so revelatory, and so useful. Because it pushes against these broader, like polarized media narratives.

Helberg, Alexander J.

57:32

So, and ditto and ditto for Erin, your work, too. I mean, you are incorporating people's situated knowledge and on the ground stories as part of academic research, that's also another one of the spheres where I think that, that, you know, recontextualizing and amplifying people's experiences and narratives is really important to show that this is a, again, going back to what Sophie said, kind of normalizing that as a practice that we have as researchers and communicators, I think is, you know, at least to get a better understanding of the problems and where we stand in relation to them. You know, I think that's, that's really crucial as well.

Dr. Erin Brock Carlson

58:10

Yeah. And I think too, in terms of like, when we hear like complex problems like this, or environmental change, oftentimes, the narratives are very steeped in like measurements, and expert opinions. And so anything like people's lived experiences are really important, right? Because I mean, in, you know, East Palestine, it's like, Okay, what's the measurements? Are these, you know, it goes back to that not like, the fear or trauma of like, having this horrible, industrial accident in your home in your backyard, right, like, that's not, and that is something that these people are going to be living with for the rest of their lives, you know?

Sophie Wodzak

58:52

Yeah. And you can't put it out. I mean, how scared are you on a scale of one to 10? Like, it's right. Because you can't like measure it. It's like, it's not as appeal. You know, do you mean like people want? They want those numbers? Like, that's what, that's what resonates? That's what seems official? So that's, yeah, it's a frustrating thing.

Helberg, Alexander J.

59:10

Well, I think we probably should leave it there for today. But at the very least, I think, again, pointing to some really good provocative examples of how we can, you know, tell a different story about these kinds of events from both a research and a reporting perspective. So I want to say thank you once again, to our guest, Erin Brock Carlson from West Virginia University. Thank you so much for being with us. And Sophie Wodzak, thank you very much for sharing a little bit more about your reporting here as well. This was a really valuable conversation and I'm glad that we get to share it with our listeners. From all of us here at reverb. Thank you for tuning in. And we will talk to you next time. Bye bye, everybody. Bye bye.

Unknown Speaker

59:52

Our show today was produced by Alex Helberg and Calvin Pollock, with editing work by Calvin.

Helberg, Alexander J.

59:59

re:verb's co producers at large are Sophie Wodzak and Ben Williams. You can subscribe to reverb and leave us a review on Apple podcasts, Stitcher, Android or wherever you listen to podcasts, check out our website at WWW dot reverb cast.com. You can also like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter where our handle is at reverb cast. That's r e v e r b underscore C A S T. If you've enjoyed our show and want to help amplify more of our public scholarship work, please consider leaving us a five star review on your podcast platform of choice and tell a friend about us. We sincerely appreciate the support of our listeners. Thanks so much for tuning in.

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