It's Time to Care About Web Accessibility for Disabled Users
1:00PM Jun 25, 2021
Chrome screen reader
world wide web
Hello and welcome to "It's Time to Care About Web Accessibility for Disabled Users." The subtitle being "that it is way past time actually." I am so glad that you are here and that you are making an effort to learn about web accessibility for people with disabilities. My name is Patrick Garvin. I am a front end web developer at Merits Global Events in St Louis. I am also an adjunct instructor at the Missouri School of Journalism at the University of Missouri in Columbia. Mizzou, that's us. I teach a class in which I teach journalism students who have never coded, how to code, and how to tell stories using the power of the web and using multimedia and how to do so in a way that is accessible and usable for people with disabilities. And it is not something that I always did, as web accessibility was not always on my radar. And so this is a stage two of my career. For 15 years, I was in newspaper newsrooms working on information graphics, digital presentations and special projects. I started at the Sun News in Myrtle Beach in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina, then I went to the Florida Times Union in Jacksonville, Florida. And then I spent nine years at the Boston Globe, working on information graphics, digital projects special presentation, all sorts of things. So I am excited to chat with you and get going so I'm going to quit rambling and get started.
As we get started, first things first, some housekeeping. Want you to know that I'm going to be looking on multiple screens, so that I can be answering questions and keeping in touch with my man Adam who is helping me out on the ONA side of this. So if you see me looking back and forth, that's why. I am going to try to announce the content on each slide. That is going to be helpful for people who are blind, who cannot see the content on the slide. People who have low vision, who maybe can't make out everything that's on the slide. And people who are maybe on other screens and are not on this screen at the moment. If you want to post screenshots on social media, screen grabs of the conference or certain things that speak out to you that you think are salient. That's awesome. When you do so, please use alternative text, which is also called alt text. If you don't know how to put alt texts on social media, that's okay, because I will show you, just in a few slides. So all of that, we're ready to get going.
First, I want to define what we mean by web accessibility. I'm going to be using this quote from the World Wide Web Consortium, which is the main international standards for the -- it's the main international standard organization for the World Wide Web. It is a mouthful to say the World Wide Web Consortium. So often people will just say the W3C, and they have defined web accessibility this way. They say web accessibility means the websites, tools and technologies are developed, or designed and developed so that people with disabilities can use them. Web accessibility means that websites, tools and technologies are designed and developed so that people with disabilities can use them. What they want you to think about that, because it implies an intentional design and development. And then that the second definition also comes from the W3C, and it says: when websites and web tools are properly designed and coded, people with disabilities can use them. However, currently many sites and tools are developed with accessibility barriers that make them difficult or impossible for some people to use. Making the web accessible benefits individuals, businesses and society. International web standards define what is needed for accessibility. Again, that comes from the World Wide Web Consortium, which again is the main international standards organization for the World Wide Web. They are the governing board, overseeing what is considered valid code for browsers. They are basically like the Jedi Council for the World Wide Web. They are not infallible, but they are kind of the ones that are tasked with keeping everything up so that when we talk about web accessibility throughout the rest of the presentation, this is what we're going to be meaning, having things that are properly designed and coded and developed so that people with disabilities can use them. We're good? Cool.
All right, time for me to show you how to put alt text on Twitter, which is what I promised that I would do a couple minutes ago. So, here's what we're gonna do. We are... I am going to a Twitter page and I'm going to... Yeah, I don't want to just be. Yeah, that's better. We'll go to my Twitter page and that way. All right, cool. So we're going to go to my Twitter page and I'm now going to write a tweet. Gonna say "Greetings from the Online News Association Conference. I am tweeting this during my presentation to show my awesome new friends and old friends" because I know that Joy and Heather are on here along with some other people. But I have some new friends on here, all of you who aren't joining Heather get to you get to be my new friends. "I'm tweeting during my presentation to show my awesome new friends and old friends, how to add alt text to their images on Twitter." I'm going to do #AltText. You notice that I'm doing "hashtag alt text," so alt text is short for alternative text. And you'll see that when we tweet this, it's not going to affect what the sighted user sees but it's going to affect what someone using a screen reader gets in their experience. So I have my tweet text ready. Now I'm going to go to where I would click on the media button so that I can add a media thing. I'm going to select the image. I already have an image here. So, you notice that my image, it's text and it says "it's time to care about web accessibility for disabled users." That's the name of this session. In the old days, we would have just gone and hit tweet and set it. Now, Twitter, for the last 13 months or so, since I think May 2020, Twitter has made it so that you can add alt text. So you can click here where it says "add description" or you can click Edit or any of those things you can do. And you will get something -- you will get the option on the left where you can crop it and resize it, but then on the right here, you'll see this thing that says ALT, or Alt, and it lets you write this description. You notice that the description gives me up to 1000 characters, and that's sometimes because alternative text that we are writing to describe an image can take more words or more characters. For this what I'm going to just write is "black text on white background. The text says 'time to care about accessibility for disabled users.'" So, I'm gonna hit save. And now we'll see this alt tag here. And we'll see this thing here, then I am going to tweet. And so now we go... if we go to my Twitter feed, we see this. Now, it won't necessarily have the alt tag up here for when you all go to see it, necessarily, but! What I'm going to do is I am going to go into my Chrome extensions tab, and I am -- I have... So if you use extensions on your Chrome browser, you can go to Chrome colon hyphen hyphen. No, not "hyphen hyphen." Chrome://extensions. Apologies for that. Chrome colon slash slash extensions. Cool.
So what I'm going to do is select screen reader. What a screen reader is -- and this is just an extension through Chrome that functions as a screen reader but -- basically a screen reading technology is technology that literally reads the contents of a screen. And then what it does is it converts the content of that screen to something that's usable for someone else. And so what it's going to do is it finds all the text on the website and converts it to something that it can output to audio for... So many blind people will literally listen. And they will have it read them aloud, read the content aloud to them. And if someone is deaf and blind or deaf blind, they will use a refreshable Braille display, and get it that way. But the only way that your content can be usable to someone is if you format your content to do that. You have to be intentional about it the computer in the browser, the screen reader aren't going to be able to know what's in the content unless you tell it so that's why we did what we did by adding that so I'm going to turn on the screen reader.
Alright. Can you... hopefully
Tweet. Nine. Main conversation region. Patrick Garvin at Patrick M Garvin. Greetings from the Online News Association Conference. I am tweeting this during my presentation to show my awesome new friends and old friends how to add alt text to their images on Twitter. Entered dialogue. Black text on white background. Black text on white background. The text says, quote, it's time to care about web accessibility for disabled users, quote.
A little different, right, so here's what happens if you were to go to something that didn't have web accessibility. If it didn't have alt text, here's how that would sound.
Dialogue, dialogue, 13 nine. Image. Image.
So, this is a tweet from the New York Times
Dialogue. I didn't think the sport wanted me anymore. Once on the verge of throwing away her trophies in frustration, the gymnast Jordan Chile's has found her happy place with her pal Simone Biles. Now, she's the favorite to make this year's US Olympic team.
So it reads the text from the body of the tweet.
Main conversation region. Image enter dialogue image dialogue
When we get to. When we get to the image,
it's just a missing image, and a lot of Twitter for people who use screen readers is just going to be
And so, think of how many reporters on your staff will share breaking or developing news from things that they're working on or from documents from screen grabs from sites or from press releases or from vigils that they are covering. They'll just have a picture and then they might just have a cryptic reference or maybe just an emoji. And so your person using the screen reader, and you just get that cryptic reference like "Wow this is big!" And then all you'll hear is "image." "What is big?" You don't know because the image has just been formatted to say "image." So, there's also this is kind of what, you know, you can code it on a website. So we're on a web page and
wham doesn't mean dangerous Blacktown owners are often portrayed negatively. One photographer set out to change that section. Research Center, like,
This is a Washington Post story, and what I'm doing is I'm hitting tab to navigate my way through it.
And our navigation sections, Link. List, list with seven items. My reading list, account settings, link list items
navigating by just hitting the Tab. Here's what happens if we try to get the alt text from the images.
Image. Section. Image. Section. Image. Image. Image. Image.
So the whole purpose of this series, this package was this photographer shot these really, you know, touching and really great... that. This is some conversation starting pictures that can really challenge the way that we have talked about this issue. But we have no context, that would allow someone who is low vision or blind to be able to participate in this. So I'm going to go ahead and turn this off, I'm going to go back to my screen. So yeah, that is... Can you imagine how many tweets are inaccessible to people just because all they hear is "Image, Image?" What if that were-- What if that tweet was from a community news outlet with important information? Or what if it was from the a health organization in your community talking about "here are places where you can now get the vaccine" or "here are the age groups where you can get the vaccine," and that information is just buried in the image of a tweet. Or it's "Hey my organization is doing this great training for professionals. Learn more here. Here's what you will learn," and it is just "image." Imagine what it's like when there's no alt text on an image and the new story, or at the alt text just repeats the caption. Sometimes captions can tell you what is in the story, but sometimes the caption is going to be more abstract context setting. The caption could be "the number of people getting vaccine has vaccines have been on the rise in recent weeks," but that doesn't tell me what is literally in the image. And what literally is in the image, could vary. It could be a person getting the shot. It could be someone in a mask holding their vaccination card. It could be a long line of people in line to get the vaccine. But just saying "the number of vaccines is on the rise?" That's great for the caption, but it's not good for the alt text. They would need to be separate and that would not give me. as a user, any context.
So then the bigger question, then for all of us is to ask how often do we think about the ways that people consume the journalism that we produce? How often do we think about the barriers that keep people from being able to consume what we publish? It helps to understand how people with disabilities use the web. People with disabilities use the web in multiple ways. There is no one universal experience for what it means to be disabled or to have a disability. So there's no one universal experience for using the web as a person with a disability. So screen reading software that can read text or display it on Braille devices that -- we've just reviewed that -- that is a big thing that is probably one of the most well known things that people with disabilities use in order to make the web more accessible. Captions and subtitles are super important. They're important for the hard of hearing, they're important for the deaf. They are also important for people who might have cognitive disabilities like aphasia. Stroke survivors who have conditions like aphasia might have trouble processing information that they hear, and then they need to read it as well to then be able to process that so that way captions can be and subtitles can be super helpful. So, it can also be helpful for people with ADHD and other conditions that might affect how people learn and process information. Transcripts are super important. Transcripts are going to be helpful for blind and vision-impaired people to help them get what they missed in visual context. Transcripts are going to be helpful for deaf and hard-of-hearing people to help them with what they missed in sound context. But then transcripts are going to be good for the deaf-blind, people who are deaf and blind, to help them with everything that they missed.
Ergonomic keyboards are really important for people who have mobility or dexterity issues. Keyboard commands without a mouse are helpful because sometimes mouse or a track pad is just not feasible for people with certain mobility issues or dexterity issues. Voice recognition software that avoids typing is again helpful for people with mobility or dexterity issues. Also helpful for people with limb differences, because not everybody is going to have two arms and two hands. Not everybody is going to have hands that they can be typing on a keyboard. And so, voice recognition and speech-driven software will help them navigate the web. Screen-magnification software to enlarge text, really, really helps. Large screens with high resolution and brightness will help people navigate the web. Mouth sticks are... picture, like almost like a wand... it's like a long, like stick that would someone would have in their mouth, and then they would use that to tap a touchscreen device. A head wand is a similar thing but instead of coming from the mouth, it will be strapped to one's head, and then they'll use that to kind of punch what's on a screen or a device or a keyboard.
These are just some of the ways that people with disabilities navigate the web. So then, with that in mind, what barriers do people with disabilities face online? What are the barriers that make those methods not usable? And when I get into the list, you're going to add the you're going to think the question shouldn't be "what barriers do people with disabilities face online?" The question will then become "what barriers, don't they face?" Just some of the barriers that people with disabilities face: videos without captions. That's not going to be helpful for stroke survivors with aphasia. That's not going to be helpful for the deaf or hard-of-hearing, but see it on so many sites. Videos without captions. Videos without audio descriptions. An audio description is probably something that you're not familiar with. An audio description is an audio track that is used to narrate the visual things that are going on in the video so that someone who is blind knows what's going on. And so I watched a really neat one. And I didn't have time to show this but if you get a chance to Google this, there's a great audio description video that's like, from the trailer for the movie "Frozen." And so they're talking about the moose and Olaf the snowman. And it's this very warm British voice kind of narrating everything that's happening as this snowman wrestles with the moose and the moose tries to bite the snowman's carrot off, and that is entertaining for someone who's never seen audio descriptions. And perhaps if you've been exposed to "Frozen" multiple times through your nephews or nieces or your kids, you might find it funny. But for someone who has no other way to take in the content, that's going to be the only way that they can consume that movie or that kind of content.
Videos, audio stories, podcasts without transcripts. Post Reports on the Washington Post does a good job posting those usually within a day. The Daily from the New York Times tries to have those within a day. But there are many other podcasts from all sorts of podcasts that don't ever publish transcripts. And for for my mother, who has 72% hearing, she can't ever listen to podcasts and so she was really excited this year when friends of hers from church told her about Father Mike Schmitz "Bible in a Year" podcast. And then when she found out that he doesn't do videos that she was like well I'm not ever going to be able, I have to be able to listen to it with captions. And then a couple weeks ago Ascension Presents announced "Hey, we're going to do this with captions now." And they've released it on YouTube going back to their very first podcast from the beginning of the year, the Bible in a Year podcasts. It's different podcasts every day of the year. And now my mother can finally partake in that podcast, and now she can talk about it with her friends at church or in her rosary group on Zoom. Before she was left out of those conversations, because she couldn't consume that content.
Incomplete transcripts can also be something that is a hindrance for people with disabilities. Using the web that the transcript might be there but it might be incomplete or it might just be the bare bones show script that was used before the show was made, but it doesn't reflect the changes or it's incomplete or it doesn't have all the sounds or doesn't have all the visuals. Audio and video that can only be played at one speed. That is frustrating especially for people who need to slow it down. Auto-playing sound or video. Audio-only instructions without text alternative. Audio or video that can't be turned off. Sound soft voices over loud backgrounds. Inaccurate auto captions. I have a friend Meryl who is deaf and she refers to auto captions as "auto craptions." Captions that cover up important text on screen. Both my parents say that this is just... that they'll be watching a game, or watching a documentary, and they'll have to go back and forth and rewind to be able to get the captions and the information that they missed. Light colors on light backgrounds, dark colors on dark backgrounds. Unusual complicated fonts will really make it difficult for people with reading disabilities. Color-coded information with no alternative. So websites where color, where information is being conveyed by color alone. For someone who has color vision deficiency, that is going to be a game over. "Color vision deficiency" is the term that we use for what we used to call "color blindness." Yes, someone who has red-green color blindness is not going to be able to look at something where it's purely color coded. Text in images is a problem as we just looked at on our look at alt texts with screen readers. Images without the text alternatives. Insufficient text alternatives for images can be a problem if it just says, "oh, picture of a chart" but it doesn't tell me what the chart is, so I'm still going to miss out on what the sighted people are using. Small font sizes, and in that is complicated by the inability to zoom in, the inability to resize the screen or vague link text that can't be understood without context. A screen reader reads the links, separate from the overall text because those are landmarks for people to know how to navigate the page. So if you have a story that has links to previous stories throughout it, the sighted user can look at that story and look at the links and be able to see the text before the link and the text after the link, and have the context to be able to get a sense of what that link is going to go to. Person using a screen reader is not going to have that context. They are going to hear that link text on its own. So the text, so, text like "click here, click here, click here." When you're on the page, you know that it's saying, "click here for more information about the Coronavirus," "click here to see how this is doing in our state." But if you're using a screen reader, and you just hear "click here" or "read more," you're not going to know what that means. And then you're going to get all worked up like I'm getting worked up.
Sites that can't be operated on a keyboard without a mouse or a trackpad. So, someone with mobility or dexterity issues or maybe with a limb difference. They're not necessarily going to be able to use a mouse or trackpad to navigate the site so if your site is designed in a way that you've got multiple charts that are beautiful lush charts, but they're hidden behind tabs where it's like, oh, "today's Coronavirus" oh "seven-day total" oh "30-day total." And it's behind a tab that can only be selected if you click on it with a mouse or a tap and that can't be operated by a keyboard, I can't tap to that to do it, I have to use my mouse? I am blessed right now at this time of my life that I had mobile dexterity. But that someone who doesn't have the mobile dexterity or who doesn't have the limb differences-- or who has a limb difference might just be out of luck. They won't be able to access that chart that's behind that tab. Similarly sites that can't be operated by speech: that's going to be frustration. Sites that require users to operate certain tasks in a certain timeframe. Someone who has limited mobility is not going to be able to click on things throughout a site as fast as someone else. Someone who has a cognitive disability or maybe who is reading the site and not their native language is going to need to take more time than someone who doesn't have a cognitive disability or doesn't have a reading disability or who is getting to read it in their native language.
Sites that require fine motor skills for small links and buttons. Animated motion or scrolling animation that can't be turned off. We see this in "scrollytelling" and scroll-driven things that can... People with vestibular issues, this can cause motion sickness, upset stomachs, migraines, all sorts of things. And you see this on so many, like, narrative journalism investigative pieces so many things that you have this without the option to turn it off or the option to consent into it. Intense flashing can cause seizures. And there's a famous example from the movie, one of the Twilight movies. I think it was Breaking Dawn, where someone, it caused a seizure, that someone was... My friend Meredith Goldstein was in the theater with her mother watching this Twilight movie as one does with their mother. And this guy went into a seizure, and it became national news, because he had a seizure while watching this bright scene. And he didn't know that he was prone to getting seizures. And so this is a big thing to think about is: don't design things in a way that cause physical reactions or seizures.
We've got some questions. "Are there universal best practices for writing alt text? If so where can I find that." I will share some examples on Twitter after the session. Alt Text is Poetry is a great one. Another question that we have is: "Do social media managing software allow for all text?" The question is, it depends. And I know that's not a great answer. It depends. I know that Tweet Deck allows you to add all text. I don't know about Hootsuite or some of the other ones. What I would do is... well, we'll get into that it toward the end of the presentation but thank you for that.
And we have, we will get into the question about descriptive versus all text at the end of the session. So we've got some good questions that are coming in. Adam, thank you for sending me these questions, those of you that are -- Charo, Mike, Allison. Thank you for these questions; keep them coming. We'll get to them. Maybe not right as you ask them. We'll get to them throughout the session.
So here's a real person's real experience. This is Chancy Fleet, a blind person on Twitter. She uses embossers. So embossers are basically like printers that print out, but instead of using ink to print out, they print out a textured thing for a tactile experience so that she can feel the bumps and ridges of things. So she said "today I read in the alt text for a chart on a local news site that the NYC new COVID case count has declined steadily since April 26 and continues that trend. That can't be right. I thought, and so I embossed the graphic and confirmed my intuition. This claim was false. When I embossed a chart like this, the text is too small to read, and the colors aren't conveyed. Graphics designed for tactile are different, but a with a visual interpreter providing context, I found our case rate jaggedly spiking up for weeks to a point we've avoided since May. I reported the error, which was caused by a journalist forgetting to edit critical parts of pasted boilerplate description of the chart. A correction or acknowledgement did not appear that practice must not apply when only blind people are misled. Writing alt text for infographics warrants diligence and integrity as much as graphics do. I believe the false claim printed daily for weeks, because I trusted the source. Somewhere journalist in a rush, filling that box, like it's a trash can, broke the trust. I won't name the new site, because they're one of the few who provide any meaningful description of charts at all, if I upset them they could just stop all texting all together. The asymmetry of power is profound and compels my discretion. This is image poverty."
It stings, doesn't it? It stung, as someone to read this. And she got responses from other people who had had similar experiences. It's a problem, not just for new sites but for the entire web. 97.4% of the top one million websites have at least one accessibility error on their homepage. Web Aim is a company or organization that stands for Web Accessibility in Mind. And they do a lot of great resources on accessibility. They would be able to help you, Adam, or I mean you, Charo and Alison, be able to navigate the best practices for image descriptions versus just not using alt texts in the right ways to do it. 15% of the world has some form of disability. 26% of the adults in the US have some form of disability. So that's one in seven within the world. One in four adults in the US, which is to say, 98% of the internet is not usable for 15% of the world or 26% of US adults. Should this be a full blown OMG crisis, the house is on fire kind of crisis? Chances are you haven't been trained on this. I mean, how many of us were extensively trained or trained at all on how people with disabilities use the web? How many of us were extensively trained or trained at all on the ways that we can unintentionally make the web unusable and inaccessible to people with disabilities.
Okay, so what do I do, now did I know that the web can be accessible to people with -- inaccessible to people with disabilities? Familiarize yourself with the basics. The web content accessibility guidelines are the W3-standard on web accessibility. They're organized around four principles, which is the foundation for web accessibility: Perceivable, Operable, Understandable and Robust.
So perceivable means that information and user interface components must be presentable to users in ways they can perceive. If they're images, they should be away for blind users to learn what's in them. If there's audios, there should be ways for deaf or hard of hearing people to learn what's in them.
Operable. User-interface components and navigation must be operable. Users must be able to operate the interface. The interface must not assume that everyone can use voice commands or that everyone can use a touchscreen or that everyone can move a mouse.
Understandable. Information and the operation of user interface must be understandable. Examples include navigation links are the same on every page and always in the same order. Always using consistent language and labeling things. Avoiding technical jargon. And robust just means your code doesn't break. On current browsers or older browsers, future browsers. That as a technology evolves, that you can keep being accessible. We're gonna have to blitz through because we've run out of some time. But basically, do you have to memorize what CAG is? No, you have to be familiar with it and if you want to, you can get a t shirt of ith, which is what I did because I'm a nerd, but you don't have to memorize it, you just have to know that it's a resource. Accessibility is not a bolt on at the end. Accessibility is like blueberry muffins; you can't just bake muffins and then try to add the blueberries after they come out of the oven. You can try to shove the blueberries in but you won't have blueberry muffins; you'll have squished muffins with squished blueberries, and who wants that? Similarly, you cannot have an accessible website if you try to add accessibility at the end; it does not work.
Pose accessibility questions early and often. How will someone use this if they can't use a mouse? How can they see this if they can't distinguish the colors? Or how will the link text make sense on its own? Where are the captions for this video, where's the transcript? Ask questions early and often. Come up with a plan across departments and disciplines in your newsroom. Using CAD, look at the site to identify common failures and barriers that you have on your site. Prioritize what to fix and give yourself a timeline. And give yourself easy wins by picking easy errors first. Easy errors first include documenting how your CMS allows you to add alt text and if your CMS doesn't allow you to add alt text, your first thing is to reach out to your vendor and figure out how to add alt text and get them to show you. Uou don't have to do the figuring out; the vendor, the people that you are paying for your CMS, they'll be the ones, they're on the hook for that. Train people for the difference between captions, which is context, and image descriptions. I'll be sharing resources after. Practice writing link text and of course, add all text to your Twitter.
Bring in an expert or growing from within. If you can afford one, by all means, bring them in, but if you can't afford one, then you'll need to grow one from within because you'll need a point person to train the entire staff. The entire staff will need some sort of training. They don't have to have a newsroom full of experts but everyone will need to be made aware of how their work will affect people with disabilities. Some will need to know a lot but everyone will need to know a little. That's a quote from accessibility lawyer Lainey Feingold. Not everybody has to have the same type of training. The reporters will get one kind, web producers another, developers another. Consider accessibility when hiring. Put it in your job posting, share it with accessibility professionals and make it easy to hire people with disabilities. Think about the tools that you use. Highcharts, Flourish, D3, Vimeo. Talk about how those tools are used and ask if you're using them in the most accessible way possible and talk to your vendors from those companies, or the representative that you have on how to make them more accessible. Do you not use an overlay. If you get approached to buy an overlay do not. They promise a one-line fix code; it doesn't work. It's not going to be easy at first or done overnight. You're going to be unlearning a lot of bad practices, you'll be learning the ins and outs and you'll face pushback. People will ask you to justify accessibility, and you will be tempted you know to use all the, the arguments that this is better for SEO, that it's increases usability for people with disabilities. This opens up more potential users for the site. This is what industry leaders do. This will help us be more innovative. This is true, but you shouldn't have to justify doing the right thing. You shouldn't have to explain the side benefits to doing the right ethical thing. You shouldn't need to make the business case about doing the right ethical thing. The threat of a lawsuit shouldn't be the key factor and doing the right ethical thing.
Treat it as an issue of diversity, equity and inclusion. People in newsrooms have come to terms with their newsrooms past when it has come to issues of inclusion, especially in terms of race and gender. We cannot aim for diversity, equity and inclusion, while ignoring people with disabilities, period. You cannot have DEI efforts if you ignore accessibility. Be willing to make mistakes and keep going. Be aware that you're always going to be learning. It starts with caring. And it's time to care about users, to care about accessibility for disabled users, way past time actually.
I went over, I know, but if you want to learn more, please do reach out. I'm happy to field your questions, I know we went over. I appreciate Adam's patience. I didn't get to do more questions, find me on Twitter at Patrick M Garvin, email me at firstname.lastname@example.org. Adams going to share a link to like a after party room, hangout room or wherever, where I can chat with y'all if you have other questions. I'm sorry that I went over, but I do appreciate you all for being here.