Okay. Well, there are two kind of examples from my working career that I thought illustrates empathy quite well. I had a job in committee Smith, our team's recruiting staff, supervising staff supporting them. And often, poor junior staff would go off sick with stress related illnesses. And then I started reading about something called vicarious trauma. So in counseling guns, sort of support services, where our clients have particularly difficult lives, were at risk of drug overdose or death by suicide or misadventure, where they get into trouble with the police for committing crimes. This was quite stressful for the staff to manage and to engage and help those people. So I did a bit of research more recently on, on bad, but my original kind of doctoral research was on decision making about who is responsible morally for decisions, particularly when you have someone who has a mental health problem, who may not always be thinking rationally, but also they use alcohol and drugs, which also affects their cognitive process. But under law, you know, you're still accountable if you choose to drink and drive. So there's complexities in how we would hold people to account normally. And I got into empathy really? Well, if I give you the example, I was thinking of homelessness. We, in the UK have an increasing problem with homelessness, I guess everyone will have walked past someone sitting on the street with a bowl. When we closed asylums in the UK, more and more people then ended up on the streets because they weren't cared for by the state. And initially, you think if you give this person some money, or a house or something, then it will solve their problems immediately. My, my empathetic connection was, I've got to help this person now I'll give them a bit of money. And I thought about my own experience, I haven't been street homeless, but I have been stuck in an airport, longing for a comfortable bed, longing for a good meal, and far from home. And I thought perhaps that's how a homeless person might feel. Initially, I was upset seeing someone sat in the street like that and wanted to help. So this will be a distance first sort of level of empathy. Where you feel an affinity something about the other person is communicating to us through their way of being affects us. So that's a clue that there's something we need to think about. But I was in my first initial sort of empathetic connection getting all wrong, because I wasn't understanding this person's way of life or or how they were living. So when I did work in services, trying to get people off the streets, just putting them in a home, or giving them a front door that they can lock or a bed didn't work, you know, the person wouldn't sleep on the bed, they were not accustomed to sleep and armpits, they weren't accustomed to taking their day clothes off, or wearing pajamas. So you didn't know how to prepare food for themselves in their kitchen, they had adapted to a lifestyle and a way of being I thought this is pretty much like, you'd ask someone who's a banker in a city, let's go and live on a phone and look after animals. And it would be such a different lifestyle and a skill set for them to have to adjust. Same thing with getting people off the streets is to get them into houses, getting them into jobs, getting them to healthy relationships is quite a lot of work. So empathy is about being able to see the world from the person's perspective as they encounter and live within it in their life. So when I was thinking the homeless person, I was turning away from them, to think about how I might feel away from home without a pet sleeping without food. And that's not how they were feeling.