S10E27 Mirko Chardin | Reclaiming the Narrative Around Educational Equity

4:27PM May 22, 2023

Speakers:

Tim Villegas

Mirko Chardin

Keywords:

learners

educators

wrestle

udl

talking

school

equity

folks

community

kids

space

leaders

means

supposed

unintentionally

districts

circumstances

individuals

education

inclusive

MCIE

You know what has been and still is a huge buzzword in education right now. Equity, and our guest this week unpacks what it means and what it doesn't mean? Stick around to learn more

My name is Tim Vegas from the Maryland Coalition for Inclusive Education and you are listening to think inclusive, a show where with every conversation we try to build bridges between families, educators and disability justice advocates to create a shared understanding of inclusive education and what inclusion looks like in the real world. You can learn more about who we are and what we do@mcie.org Mirko Chardon is Novak education's chief equity and inclusion officer. Before joining Novak He was the founding Head of School of the Putnam Avenue Upper School in Cambridge, Massachusetts. merkos work has involved all areas of school management and student support. His greatest experience and passion revolve around culturally connected teaching and learning, recruiting and retaining educators of color, restorative practice and school culture. He is also the co author with Dr. Katie Novak of the best selling equity by design. The power and promise of UDL is available to provide workshops, seminars and trainings on implicit bias micro aggressions UDL restorative practice identity, courageous conversations about race and personal narratives. Here is what we cover in today's episode. Why equity is a complex issue that requires a holistic approach, the importance of listening to the voices of students in understanding why school should be for kids and not adults. Before we get into today's interview, I have some questions for you. Are you feeling disconnected from your loved ones? Do you want to stay in touch without having to be constantly on social media? If so, then together letters is a perfect solution for you. Together letters is a group email newsletter that gathers updates from all of its members and combines them into a single easy to read newsletter for everyone. This means that you can stay up to date with what's going on and your friends and families lives without having to scroll through and this feeds. Best of all together letters is free for groups of 10 or less. So what are you waiting for Sign up today at together letters.com And start reconnecting with your favorite people. And now, my interview with Mirko Chardon. Mirko Chardin, welcome to the think conclusive podcast.

Thank you for having me. I'm so so excited to have this conversation. I've been looking forward to it.

So Mirko, I wanted to have you on because I wanted to talk about equity. And the word equity can be a politically charged word. And I know for the for MCIE, you're the Maryland Coalition for inclusive education. We work with districts all around the country. And some of the districts are in states that has specifically called out the word equity and targeted the word as you cannot talk about it. You You cannot talk about divisive topics, you can't talk about controversial things in these districts, they want change, they want to move toward more inclusive practices. They want to implement universal design for learning, and they genuinely want to move forward. But there's a big barrier there. And that's the language. So to start us off, we're gonna we're gonna solve this. I'm just kidding. We're not gonna solve it. But I do want to have a conversation and get your thoughts about, you know, how do educational leaders talk around this issue without it being politically divisive?

Sure why I think the I want I'll start off by thanking by sharing that I think it's so shameful that I know the term and certain terms, you know, in the context of our society have become No, extremely charged, which is fascinating for me, because some of the folks who don't want that term to be utilized also advocate for free speech. But you know, it's a conversation for another day. in direct response to your question, I think part of what we have to do as educators is to reclaim the narrative of the term because we found ourselves in a circumstance where there are individuals who are defining and giving definition of the work for us in our essentially making claims that we are doing things that we're not doing and have re framed what equity is supposed to be about when I work with districts and school communities even state aged sees when folks talk about equity. The first thing I typically recommend is know that know the organization go through a process that begins with concept stabilization. And I say starting with concept stabilization. Because if we start with concept stabilization, we're essentially defining what the terms we utilize mean in our own unique context. And I think when we do that, it allows us to reclaim, know what that term means for us how it applies to our work, I often share with folks an example of you know, what I mean by how equity can be defined in a powerful way. And I typically share the definition that's been coined by Dr. Christopher Emdin, which simply states that, you know, equity is hearing someone's voice and what they need and providing them with that. And I love how simplistic but how authentic and how direct that definition is in regards to cutting at the core of what equity is, or what equity could be, as we think about the work of providing agency and empowerment know, to our kiddos. I think it's also, you know, imperative that when folks think about equity, that you know, granted in many circumstances, we are talking about providing supports, you know, for no black and brown scholars who have had disproportionate experiences. But you know, equity is not just a person of color, Fe, you know, when we talk about meeting the needs of individuals, we're talking about everybody. So I don't want to get too far off on a rant. But for me, the recommendation is always let's define what this term means in our context. It's a very challenging circumstance to be in if there are external factors that are defining terms of saying no, when you say this, this is what you mean, if we don't have that lightning rod moment to say, wait, wait, wait, whatever context, you utilize this word in different ways, as it pertains to the school community, we're talking about the kids that we serve here, and we're talking about doing things that benefit your children. I think that that's a super important part of this work.

Would you say that definition one more time?

So it's hearing somebody's voice on what they need? And then providing them?

Yeah, so I wonder if, if we, you know, for those who are listening, and are in the situation where they're, like, just can't fit? You know, it's the E word can't say the word, you know? Maybe it really is as simple as Okay, well, you know, let's hear what our learners need, you know, whether whether they are black and brown, whether they have whether they have an individual's individualized education program, whether, you know, whatever sort of identity they have, maybe we just need to be listening to learners, right?

Absolutely. Absolutely. I think if we are going to fix or create educational systems that are worthy of our learners, then we really have to wrestle with the depth of sides of the work in I know that in of itself is not a taboo, no word yet, but there are many who will quickly jump to technical fixes, and not spend the time of correlating the fact that, you know, any action that we take as a result of, you know, our beliefs, our values, you know, we make certain decisions about kids and programs that we put in place based on how we view our role as an educator, what we think our jobs are supposed to be, know how we view our young people, and how we view what our role is supposed to be no as it pertains to supporting them. And I think if we really wrestle with some of the adaptive elements of the work will lift up the fact that and I'll share a disclaimer that when I say this, or make this next comment, sometimes people think that I'm joking, or that it's cute, but it is 100%. true and accurate, at least in my value system. That school is for kids, not for adults, that every single adult that is part of a school community, no of their own free will and volition, no, apply for a job, accepted an interview and accepted a job offer with a we're committing to being the facilitators of another human beings learning experience. Yet, when we get into the reads of talking about no priorities at schools, and, you know, wrestling with pressures, we often make it into an adult conversation that really revolves around what the adults think that they should do or should not do, while while unintentionally communicating know to our scholars that they have no voice and that school is something that's being done to them rather than for them in with them. And I think it's important that you know, our educators also take into consideration when we talk about the school bang, we're talking about supporting no individuals who will soon join our society as decision makers with us. Now because our kiddos aren't in school for forever and In the context of our society, once they become 18, and 21, their voices matter just as much as any other adults. And I think if we have a laser like focus, not just on adult preferences, but on our learners, and on what the purpose of our educational systems are supposed to be, that that will give us inroads into perhaps having some different types of conversations, or perhaps even slowing down our processes, so we can make sure that our actions truly reflect benefiting learners and not satisfying adulti.

I absolutely love what you're saying, Mirko, and I know, our listeners are loving this as well. I think that the question for us is where we have educators, this is where this is not their mindset, right? Where historically school, even though it should have been for the kids the entire time, historically, it's the mindset is, I have knowledge, I have what you need to know, as the learner, I have the curriculum, and I am going to impart this knowledge on you. And this is going to make you into the person that I think or as society thinks you need to be, and then you're going to leave our educational system and become a productive member. You know, it's like, a lot of people. I don't know, if a lot I don't know, the percentage of people who think this, but I know that there are there, you know, and historically, that's how schools run. But how do we move people to start thinking that school is for kids?

Well, yeah, I think we have to create circumstances. And again, you know, I know I have a bias because I think it's all about the adaptive side, us touching values, beliefs, things that sometimes are perceived to be scary. But if we can't reinsert humanity, know, into the educational process and keep it at the center, no, we're gonna lose sight of everything. And when I say that, I mean, not just acknowledging that this is about taking care of younger humans, but you know, requiring our educators to acknowledge their own humanity as well. And understand that, no, we are not in an industry in which we deal with static beings or inanimate objects. And if we are going to authentically connect, know, with our young people, we have to take into consideration, you know, again, our own humanity and value systems, the things that we bring with us, you know, we have to think about, you know, in terms of our own working conditions, you know, what's going on in the culture, this environment, you know, is this a space where I can authentically say that I feel like I'm part of an adult learning community? Or that I am able to continue my own learning, growth and development? I think, even folks who have those rigid perspectives on what they think education is, we'll still know hold on to those cliche statements that all educators are supposed to be committed to being lifelong learners. Well, then what does that mean? And for you, as an educator, not even thinking about your students at this particular point in time? You know, what does a challenging learning journey look like for you know, what are things that you need to feel supported and challenged and to be able to feel safe enough to step out of your comfort zone know, to make some of those connections that neurosciences know communicated results, and you know, those neurons in our brains stretching, firing and wiring in new ways, because we're wrestling with new information? I think if our educators really wrestled with that, and you know, the fact that when we talk about this learning process, it's not, you know, involving kids in some special, mystical, magical thing that only applies to children. But we're really talking about learning what it sees me lifting up what it means to embrace the joy of learning. And you know, there's a variety of different types of educators who've had different types of experiences for different types of learners. And if they think, as a collective know of what it would take to create circumstances that edify and lift them up, and how do we model you know, that for our young people, I think it'd be a huge game changer. I think some of what has, you know, our educational workbooks for stagnant is that there are a lot of leaders who are not creating cultures that are supporting their educators, and allowing them to really wrestle with the messiness of being human, which means wrestling with vulnerability, which means wrestling with, oh my gosh, there's something crazy, that's just happened societally I have to show up at this job. But you know, again, neuroscience, no, my brain has a cognitive load. And if it's full of what I just saw on CNN, and social media, they're going to need to be some spaces that that I can process that so that I am not full of anxiety, know making decisions that unintentionally lead to harm because I'm not at my best because, you know, leadership has not created dynamics that have allowed me to feel safe and welcomed. See, I actually think some of what we see happening in schools are are educators essentially giving back to kids what they have received themselves. And they have this demoralizing, dehumanizing experience, although they came in with excitement, you know, I'm going to inspire young people. And when they stepped in, it's almost like that weird, no analogy of No, not if you like sausage, not going to the sausage factory school shouldn't be like that. But for so many educators, it has become that, and since it has been that and they have not been poured into, in that fire has not continuously, no been attended to. It makes it challenging, you know, to be someone who then is going to have the capacity to do that, for not just one individual, but several,

one of the common characteristics that we see with Inclusive Schools, you know, we visit a lot of schools, but the ones that really stand out and that are doing the work, they're including learner, all learners, they're providing time for general and special education teachers to, you know, co create, let collaborate, co teach, co assess, they have fantastic leadership, their leadership, you're describing those leaders, you're describing leaders that provide the space for their teachers and educators to be vulnerable to reflect to think the plan? I mean, does it really is it like, is it leadership? Is that really what we're talking about here?

I think we are, I think we're talking about leadership, I think we're talking about institutional culture, I think we're talking about things that folks in the private sector have realized are of the chief importance, you know, if they are going to be successful, and if they're going to have their businesses grow. No one thinks that, you know, haven't been normalized as being at the center as it pertains to education. And sometimes when we talk about leadership, now, I've spent many years you know, as a building leader, in a variety of different communities in the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. Now, when we talk about leadership, we're not just talking about building leadership, because those building leaders, although they have a great deal of power, influence and authority over their individual schools, are essentially, you know, in the role of being middle managers who look up know, to district leadership. And you know, the same process happens, right? If there is some toxic elements or toxic practices, or a dehumanizing culture that exist, no, across the district, then those leaders are deflated. And when they stand before their school communities, they emulate, you know, some of what they've experienced in, you know, you have this trickle down effect that goes from the supposed powerful individuals, you know, folksy principles as being very, very powerful. But if you have conversations with district principals, now they will share, we don't have absolute power. No, I am essentially somebody who was managing a program. And yes, I get it. You know, as far as the community is concerned, it's up to me, but I implement policy that's been dictated by school board, my superintendent, my assistant superintendents, I may have no influence as it pertains to the curriculum, because we may have tons of curriculum coordinators and directors, there may be dysfunction amongst all of them. And, you know, I am in this space of trying to communicate this message that I've been mandated to communicate to you to absorb whatever it hits need to be taken, because you don't get to circumnavigate me and just go up the chain of command. If there's, you know, a decision that's come down that you don't like. And it's just this really weird circumstance, that almost and I say this unintentionally, right, because I can't imagine that anybody intentionally created this. But it almost unintentionally normalizes this idea of being powerless. And being uninspired and of being in survival mode, you know, that success is surviving the experience no opposed to it being no one that revolves around thriving? No, I don't even think there's a universal conceptual framework of what it means to thrive as an educator, and as an educational leader, you know, in the world of 2023. And I think that needs to change because, no, for those of us who aren't in private sector, I think we can quickly close our eyes have a conceptual framework and narrative in our brain of what successful leadership may or may not look like in other industries, but within our own notes, almost like we don't have permission to think in that way. In the models that we have are typically antiquated right? Now, this is what success looked like 40 or 50 years ago, no, when the circumstances in the world were very different, you know, we had a very different society. There were very different needs. So although there might be some benefit and looking back, you know, It's not an apples to apples, we can just take what the thinking was, from that particular point in time and assume that it will even understand or meet the needs of any of the issues that are currently manifesting.

What if I'm a principal or school leader, who is just feeling stuck in a system that is, is not inclusive? It's not forward thinking. It's, it's stuck in in some old patterns and want to move forward, but don't exactly know, how do you have any advice for them?

I think first and foremost, and I know in the world today, for some, this might seem somewhat cliche, but I think going back to their why, you know, why have you made the decision to do this? Not in some type of cookie cutter light way that, hey, I want to give back. But, you know, let's really dig in, what was it that motivated you to be committed, you know, to this work and the circumstances? And, you know, you know, when I shared that definition of equity being about need know, what are the things that that you need? What are the direct things that you need? And, you know, is this a space where you can get those things, you know, are there colleagues or other networks that you can connect with, that will allow you to get those things and sustain yourself in this space. And if you're realizing that you can't sustain yourself in this space, and you can't get those things, then I think one of the best things to do is and start thinking about an exit strategy. Now in the world of education and exit strategies, a taboo fe, as it pertains to entrepreneurs and business folks, that's something that should you should have in mind when you first know, develop your business plan. And for me, that really revolves around the fact that if our leaders are burned out, they they don't have the capacity to support no educators that are supposed to be under that, you know, we when we get on airplanes, we hear over and over again, you need to put your oxygen mask on first. No, you need to ensure that you're at a place where you're full enough to be able to pour into others. If not, you're just taking up space. And it might not be an intentional thing, you know, some of us hit brick walls, and we get burned out, there should be no shame, blame, you know about that, you know, it just is what it is. And self care is super significant. And I think there are a lot of leaders who are burnt out worn out no have been put in positions where they're assuming that they cannot take care of themselves, that, you know, they're correlating the idea of being a leader with martyrdom that, you know, my badge of courage or honor, is that I'm not spending time with my family. I'm not spending time with my kids, I'm stuck in this building. And, you know, we need to shatter that narrative. Because, you know, it is obvious when we lift it up that that is not healthy. It's not sustaining, it's not inspiring. And it certainly does not lead to anyone having capacity, no to lift up other individuals. If you're drowning. No, in your current circumstance,

I want to pivot to talking about inclusive education and Universal Design for Learning and as a as a way to reimagine reshape school systems. So a lot of our listeners are educators, school leaders, and they're already at the point where, like they've bought in, we need to move forward, we need more inclusive school systems, and maybe they have heard of UDL or maybe they haven't, but they know that it can be part of the strategy of reshaping educational service delivery. So what do you suggest is kind of first steps for educators who want to change systems and know that UDL is part of it, but maybe they don't know how it fits in.

Well, I think it's all about building that internal capacity. I think if if educators are interested, you know, in UDL, I think there's some great resources that are available in the form of online courses that you know, folks can take if they're wanting to, you know, kind of dip a toe in my organization, Novak education, we have a plethora of different, you know, self directed, no, as well as no live facilitated. No, no course offerings. I think there's some really fabulous texts that are out there that might be a safe way to wrestle with some ideas. You know, my colleague, Katie Novak, her UDL now was a great text, no our texts that we co authored equity by design. I think that that's another great text, to really wrestle with the ideas and to try to make sense of, you know, what is this framework? I also recommend utilizing social media. There's a lot of hubbub about you know, what's been going on with Twitter and I'm not going to touch any of that now. But I will say that there are a lot of educators who still, you know, connect on Twitter. Share and share resources. You know, in fact, if you utilize the hashtag UDL chat, you'll find tons of questions that educators have raised or shared across the nation, you'll see threads of responses and resources that folks are sharing with each other. And essentially utilizing that social media, virtual digital space to network, no, and particularly know if folks are finding that, hey, I don't think I have like minded colleagues, or no, it's not necessarily safe enough yet, for me to raise this with colleagues. Well, I think taking advantage of social media and those virtual spaces, to have the conversations and seek out information,

okay, I know for myself that I would not have stayed in public education, as long as I did, without connecting with other like minded educators on social media, it just, it would have not happened, I would have been burnt out way, way, way before. It's very

real. It's very real. And I think, you know, in the world that we live in, we have so many resources. And certainly, you know, if we don't have the ability to know, locally access networks, or information that's held in networks, I think being able to utilize social media can help tremendously, and also help us to know create some national dialogue about, you know, some of the trends and issues that we're dealing with, within our classrooms in our school communities, you know, for me, is someone who has the luxury of observing things and different schools and different cities, different states, different districts, it's fascinating to see the commonalities. You know, there are many of us who are wrestling with the same issues, the same questions, but are doing it in isolation, and are assuming that it's just us, or it's an issue that only exists in our community or only exists in our school, because there haven't been those opportunities to check in and hear the voices of colleagues and other spaces, who are wrestling with some of the things who have different entry point strategies, resources, you know, that could benefit our industry as a whole, you know, if we're able to

see social media doesn't have to be toxic all of the time. Absolutely. So Maria, do you have any examples of how implementation of UDL has changed his school system to be inclusive of all learners, y'all Novak education that have worked with a lot of districts, but I think that people who maybe just want that extra little nudge to move forward with either implementing or learning more about UDL, I think they'd love to hear some stories. Do you have any?

Yeah, I certainly do. And I think there's a tremendous level of success around our nation right now of folks who are digging in, and who are trying to make this work know, as real as possible. I think there are folks who were doing it at different levels, different stages, to try to move things forward. Now, I think the place that I have the most intimate knowledge of is, you know, actually my former school community, you know, that I founded in the year 2012, and lead, I know, for just about a decade, you know, when we began wrestling with UDL, it changed everything for us. And it changed everything for us, because we really wrestled with first and foremost, that UDL is not just about tips and tricks, that it's not about these magical Silver Bullet strategies that are going to change the world, that it was formed, first and foremost, know about us embracing the fact that it's a framework, no set of principles, beliefs, and values that are supposed to guide our work. And that before we even could wrap our minds around how we do UDL, no, we had to wrestle with some of the foundational principles that come, you know, with that value system or, you know, with, you know, that that way of seeing the work first and foremost, you know, wrestling with no variability is everywhere, not even just amongst the kids, but wherever humans are. And what does that mean in for us in our relationships as adults, you know, wrestling with asking questions about, you know, what does it authentically mean to have an expectation? I know, it's cliche. Now, for folks everywhere to say all means all. But we know and people say All means all, you know, you look at data in you know, you hear the experiences that happen in spaces, we know that that's not the case. So is there any deep thinking that's gone into know, what does it mean authentically have firm goals? You know, what flexible means for folks? And, you know, this notion of being an expert learner, no, have folks really situated their minds around believing that each and every single one of our young people actually has the potential to operate at that level? And I think that is a fascinating question to wrestle with. And when school communities wrestle with this, if they do it in authentic ways, I think we see magic taking place because if we truly truly, truly acknowledge that we believe that all of our learners have the potential to operate know as expert learners if we are able to identify and remove barriers, it communicate that we see our roles differently than they're traditionally perceived. Because if we believe that each and every single one of our learners has this innate genius within them, and when I say this are often like peppering it with if we're saying, Oh, we're not just talking about the ones who like are the ones who have advocacy outside of school, we're talking about the ones who are kicking your butt and driving you crazy right now, if we're acknowledging that they have this inner genius within themselves, then when we don't see it, we realized that it's not because we're dealing with a bad kid, or know a kid that does not happen Central, because we've acknowledged that they all do. We know what we don't see it, it's because they're barriers that are in place. And we know that our role then is not the cast judgment on which kids we fake have potential versus kids that we think don't have potential. And I think, no one their school communities that really wrestle with that notion, it changes everything you have to rethink, know, what you believe your role is, as an educator, you have to rethink know, what you believe, you know, you're supposed to be doing to facilitate powerful experiences for new young learners. And know, when we first began wrestling with this at my former school community, it was fascinating, because I think a lot of our folks were under the assumption me included, that we were doing everything possible in our actions, you know, focusing on these different technical fixes and strategies, everything possible, that try to communicate that we believed in high expectations, and we were frustrated, always frustrated. No one, there were circumstances of students, despite what we would preach, no, not being able to do some of the things that we believe they could, or there being tensions. And, you know, a lot of the typical, you know, a lot of the typical things that happen in schools, but when we really wrestled with, you know, do we authentically believe that all of our learners have the potential to be successful at the highest level, so much so that we don't need to enter in with this mindset that says we need to sift out the good ones, from the ones that are mediocre, it was fascinating, because we realized that we really, really believe this, then there's certain practices that should be showing up, you know, in our classrooms on a regular basis, we should be planning in a certain way. There's certain types of conversations we should be having with young people that communicate, you know, in the words of John Dewey, that, you know, school is not a rehearsal for life, it's real life, and that they're supposed to be at the center, because we're supposed to be developing within them that sense of self efficacy and independence, because they're not supposed to be in school forever. And we are certainly not supposed to be their brains are the individuals who were carrying, you know, the cognitive load with them. You know, it's not what happens when you go to the gym, right? Like a trainer doesn't lift the weights for you, they coach you through it. But we really have to wrestle with this mindset value system piece to take into consideration, you know, how we enter into ensure that we're not unintentionally manifesting as barriers. And I think they're many of us, me included, before wrestling with this and committing to wrestle with this on a regular basis, I unintentionally showed up as a barrier, because something that I held with me was that I always believed that my kids need me, and that they were always going to need me. And there was this little selfish thing going on inside of me. That was I wanted to feel needed by the kids, I wanted to feel needed by the faculty. When we enter into that mindset, know, it's easy for us to create circumstances that result in our students in a foreign leader, our teachers having to have a sense of dependency upon us. And that's not the way it's supposed to be. We're supposed to be coaching, we're supposed to be facilitating, you know, this move towards growth and development. That means that we need to enter into spaces of vulnerability. We need to enter into spaces where we're releasing know some control know, in our classrooms, and in our school communities or adult communities to provide opportunities for voice and feedback. So we can be sure that we are actually know operating in a way that communicates that the work is about the recipient of the service. So the I like saying that educators that we need to be cognizant of the fact that we're in a service industry. And I say that with the smile, because sometimes when I say it, folks will look at me be like What are you talking about? But that's what we have, right? We deliver an educational experiences service, which means we have customers and clients not ones that we make money off of, but individuals who are the direct recipients of that service. And I think when folks really dig into Udo least this is what happened at my former school community. We realize that we have to have laser like focus on that, you know, what is going to be the impact and how are we consistently measuring impact not just from our lenses, but from the lenses of those who are receiving the service? In a completely transforms everything, because you can't do that if you're not ensuring that there multiple opportunities to gather the voices of others. And when you get the voices of others, that means you get real strong critical feedback. know, you hear that you've made mistakes, you hear that you've done something that has been hurtful to someone, and you have to wrestle with that, you know, not with shame or blame, but acknowledging that despite what your intentions were, you may have made a mistake. And then that's okay. See, I think when folks don't wrestle with these frameworks that I believe are connected to that human experience, it's easy for us to hide behind these false personas, which really, really make you know, our school communities super impersonal. No, for the adults, no, and the young people

for when listening to learner voices. I'm wondering, and for those systems that are working through EDL, implementing video, do you ever hear from learners that they they want? I don't know, specialized? I don't know if I'm saying this, right. I'm thinking about, I'm thinking about gifted and talented education, quote, unquote, I'm thinking about learners with disabilities, is one of the things that we as MCIE, and advocates for Inclusive Education talk about a lot is that learners need to have access and be learning in the same spaces, right? Absolutely. But when we're listening to to learners, I wonder if if we ever come across learners be like, I want something different? Does that ever come this ever come out?

So in my own experience, I have not encountered that. At the same time, you know, I think, you know, it absolutely could come out that they're learners who may say, hey, I want something different, or if this is not meeting my needs, or I have certain passions that, you know, may be very unique. Are there certain experiences that you know, I am looking for, that may be very unique? And I think that that's okay, because, again, you know, we're supposed to be developing this sense of self efficacy. And we're supposed to be developing a sense of independence, so that when our learners leave us, you know, they are truly ready, you know, for the world outside of school. It's one of the things that frustrates me so much when I see the how stagnant our educational systems, no arm, particularly during this time of societal economic turmoil, right? Like, no, if we're worried about the economy, how are we developing and investing in developing the capacity know of our future workforce, so they can meet whatever the societal needs are to keep our economies thriving. And if we're not connecting those dots, we're missing the mark on what the educational experience is supposed to be. It's not babysitting, and it's not school, for the sake of school, we're supposed to be providing these skill sets, so that, you know, these children can walk out of our doors and contribute to society. And I think that that has become kind of cookie cutter and Kumbaya. You know, folks like saying that, but don't connect the dots on what that means. That means that you have a young person in your class that might be a doctor one day, they might be your dentist, that's scary. For some folks thinking, wow, these kids that I'm working with, might actually enter in the spaces in the society where they have some power and influence over me know, I've been in the game long enough to have those experiences where I've run into young people, and not just the ones I've had good relationships with, know where I've been in extreme moments of vulnerability, and really had, you know, a gut check moment, like, oh, my gosh, she's the phlebotomist, is she gonna, like sit at me in the veins a bunch of time? Because I was not at my best when I was working with her. And, you know, how do I take that moment, that micro moment and that anxiety in wrestle with, I need to do better when I'm standing before these young people, because I am not effective in any way, shape, or form, if I am afraid if one of them actually gets to a place to success, and particularly if it's someone who's gone to a place the success that I didn't believe it. And that really hits home for me, because I'm an individual who was expelled from three schools when I was in middle school. I'm an individual who had really horrific experiences in school before I turned around. And you know, I often joke with folks that I have definitely been the direct supervisor and evaluator know of educators who were kind to me, and certainly ones who freaked out when they realized that I was going to be their boss, or that I was the one who was the chair of the interview committee when they were coming in. And if that is our reality, or there's the possibility of that we need to do better and do something different.

That can get real real fast. Oh, yes, man. Okay. Well, in the, in the time, we have left thinking about our audience thinking about, you know, educators who are interested in in moving this education over any sort of other thoughts that you want to make sure that that people walk away with.

I think that I think it's it's I almost saved well to say this, but I think it is so imperative that we really lift up and normalize that school is not about any of us that it's about the kids, and that the kids are the recipients of our service. And that when we, as adults receive service, we have some extreme expectations. No, we expect that our voices are heard, and that our voices are validated. We also expect that service providers are actually able to do the things that they say that they're supposed to do, right? Like, no, in the community, if you're bringing your car to a mechanic, and that mechanic has a reputation for not being able to fix breaks, they're not going to be in business. You know, if we go to restaurants, and we let folks know that we have particular preferences or allergies, and they're not willing to take that into consideration, they're not going to be in business. Now, as it pertains to school. That's typically not the case, though. Because it's very easy for us as educators to say these are kids, we don't need to listen to them. This is what I have, this is what it's going to be, oh, this is the best that I can do. Yet, you know, five minutes after the clock, you know, somebody rolls into Applebee's. And if that waiter is not doing what they're supposed to be doing, or isn't delivering service of being kind, they're walking out, they're frustrated, there's a Yelp review, maybe someone's talking to a manager, we have to understand that when our kids are with us, they're the ones who are sitting looking at us like wait a second, you keep saying it's all about the children, but you know, in your actions, and in this atmosphere, it doesn't feel like that. And we need to be mindful of that. It's one of the reasons why so many kids disengaged, I often say that our kids know when whether we're being whether it's intentional or not, they know when we're being fake. And they know because they're with us for six to eight hours a day, 180 days a year. And they watch us they know what our facial expressions mean, they know what the tone of our voice and our body language means. Now, you don't have to be an educator who has ever said anything egregious to a young person to have kids know that you don't believe in them and don't have your back because they watch and study and understand your mannerisms. And, you know, there's an old school saying and education more is caught than what is taught. And we need to be mindful of that. Because sometimes what shuts down our learners is the hypocrisy that they see over and over again when they step into the school setting. And I think we need to have the courage to be authentic. And our leaders need to have the courage to create cultures that celebrate, you know, the full deist spore of all the identities and perspectives of the adult learners, you know, who are their employees and staffs know, when we do that we create thriving, healthy communities that we can invite our young people into, see a lot of educators don't realize our youth are the transient residents of our school communities, they come and go, when you get a job there and you say you've been there for 10 years? No, that's your community. No, you're there for at least half your day, every day. What happens in that space is stuff that you allow to have happen in that space. The kids come in, they cruise out and another group comes in. So we need to be the keepers of that community and ensure that it's thriving and healthy for us. So that when our young learners come in, they can experience something that's also

thriving. I think there's, there's a misconception sometimes, especially with new educators, that building community is an afterthought. It's, I need to be making sure I'm teaching what I'm supposed to be teaching, like curriculum wise, or I need to be making sure my classroom management is ABC XYZ. But I think you don't get to the point where you have a healthy classroom, uh, without building community and without investing in your learners and without taking care of yourself, right.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think there's so many of us who we are focuses on intent, and it's not on impact in any way, shape, or form. And no, this is something else that I've Well, it's no, it's a quote from John Dewey from years and years ago, but it's so relevant, no, that you cannot say no, that you've taught anybody anything, if there's no evidence of learning taking place. And there's so many circumstances, I think you're talking about younger educators who are like, I just need to follow this curriculum guide and give this stuff to them. Just because you've talked about something or you've put something in front of somebody doesn't mean that it's actually been absorbed in their brain does not mean that it's in long term memory does not mean that they've understood it. And again, I'll like in it, know what it's like when we deal with were the recipients of service and other spaces. You're not having the plumber, come back to your house who can't stop the pipes from leaking. And there many of us who say that we're teaching and we're working hard, but if the kids are learning, who did we teach? And I know that's a scary thing to wrestle with. But no, I think we have to, you know, get right to the heart. To the matter, you know, if if at any given point in time, we think we've delivered quality instruction, and, you know, we see through student work or assessments that more than 50, or 60% of the kids don't have the concepts we can't move on. We didn't actually teach it to them, we made an attempt to, but that attempt wasn't successful. See, we typically, it's a shame we typically correlate attempts at teaching with success. And that's not the case, right? Like, even in the athletic world, if I attempt to get a touchdown, but I don't get it, I can't say, hey, we ran a play, give us props, not till I get into the endzone. No, if I say I'm attempting, you know, three pointers, but I'm just tossing of air balls, my four might be pristine, but I'm just tossing up air balls, or they're going around the rim and popping out. I don't get points of credit for that. You know, people acknowledge my effort. But then there's also a sense of, you know, if you're really trying to get those buckets to fall, you need to keep you need to keep working at it. You're not quite there yet. No, commend your effort. But keep working on it. And you'll get there. Many of us just hang our hats on, I showed up by tribe.

I did it that a lot. I heard that a lot. When I was in schools, I also heard a lot of let's just get into school, feed them and send them home.

Well, that well, that's why I say I think the adaptive side, you know, other work is in in and we don't spend time with the adaptive side, because we typically say that there's pressure, there's politics, we don't have the time to sit and think if we're not actually thinking critically and reflecting then we are just blindly, you know, running a race. And we're not even being that attentional about it. If we don't have these moments and these opportunities to stop and question, well, you know, what is the purpose? You know, oh, you know, this educational experience? What is the purpose of schooling? Is it baby setting? No, what would you just framed is, you know, we're just getting them in, we're feed them and sending them home. Sounds like babysitting. To me, that sounds like if that's the case, no kids might have a more positive experience if they're dealing with someone who's coming in explicitly as a babysitter. But let's think about what our roles are and what we're doing. And let's really wrestle with the why not in some, like cliche, new aged, you know, we're trying to show that we're enlightened, but just really showing that we have a sense of seriousness of purpose as it pertains to the work know what is our firm goal in any circumstance? And how do we know that we're actually achieving that goal? Erica Sheridan,

thank you so much for being on the podcast. We appreciate your time.

I'm honored to be a guest Thank you.

Think inclusive is written, edited and sound designed by Tim VA gets in as a production of MCIE Original Music by miles credit, attention school leaders. Did you know that you can team up with the Maryland Coalition for inclusive education to promote inclusive practices in your school or district, regardless of your location. MCIE has partners in Maryland, Illinois, Virginia, Arkansas, Oklahoma, and more. Joining us in this work. Our goal is to expand partnerships in every state in the US and beyond. The first step is to start a conversation with us, visit our contact page at mcie.org/contact. And let us know that you want to transform your educational services to be inclusive of all learners. Also, please mention thinking cluesive And your message to let us know how you found out about MCIE We can't wait to hear from you. A special thanks to our patrons Melissa H joiner II Pamela P Mark C Kathy B. Kathleen t zero t Gabi M Aaron P. Paula W and Carol cue for their support of thinking cluesive Thanks for your time and attention. And remember, inclusion always works