How changes in political and social landscape have affected workplace investigations; and one of the reasons why organizations find themselves under the microscope. This is Partners in Diversity's Equity Conversations the Podcast. Hello, I'm Tracey Lam, Director of Programs and Communications, at Partners in Diversity. You may have read about it in the news companies that are under investigation when there's credible information on possible significant wrongdoing, misconduct, discrimination, or ethical lapses. Many times they bring in an outside investigator, for one investigator assessing situations through a DEI lens is critical to this work. Please join me in welcoming Michael Tom, Founder and Chief Consultant of Northwest Workplace Investigations. Welcome to equity conversations, Michael.
Thank you, Tracey, I really appreciate this opportunity. And thank you so much for inviting me.
Of course. So Michael, tell me a little bit about yourself both professionally and personally.
So I am a 30 year attorney. And I've been kind of amazed at how quickly it's gone by. But I started out my career as a litigator in Portland, Oregon, and did that for about 10 years, primarily advising managers and companies in terms of litigation and just general employment advice. And then I went to Oregon Health and Science University as a investigator when my wife and I had young children that were in need of parents that were more available in terms of time because being a litigator is very demanding on your time. And not that working at OHSU isn't demanding as well. But I worked at OHSU as a compliance investigator, then I became the associate director and then director for affirmative action, equal opportunity. And at OHSU, I lead a department for the past five years of when I was there in compliance, but also affirmative action and eiversity equity inclusion initiatives. So I served on the Diversity Advisory Council at OHSU as well as the co chair of the physical access committee. So at OHSU, I really broadened my lens and understanding and education, frankly, in the diversity equity inclusion arena, and then more recently, so the past six years, I left OHSU and set up my own consulting, and it is called Northwest Workplace Investigations. I am the sole proprietor of the business. And it's a nice blending of kind of all of what I just described as being an attorney in the employment and civil rights arena, as well as understanding diversity, diversity, equity inclusion, as well as being embedded in a large organization and understanding a complex work environment and working with lots of different people from different backgrounds as well as different professions. So that's me in terms of a professional background. I also thought it might be important to understand my cultural background. So my father is Chinese, and he grew up was raised in Hawaii, and he is third generation. So his grandparents immigrated from China, he grew up and was raised in Hawaii and his family, some of his family are still there in Hawaii. And so I feel like I have kind of a Hawaiian slash Chinese background from my father's side. And from my mother's side, she is from Colorado. And so that brought a different perspective to my family and kind of blended cultures. But I thought that would be important from a diversity equity inclusion standpoint for you to know about and your listeners to know about my background.
Michael, tell me a little bit more about what drew you to employment law and specifically workplace investigations.
Well, it started early in terms of my schooling in law school, I just naturally gravitated towards employment and civil rights matters and labor law as well. In the legal world, there's distinction between employment and labor, law. Labor law, meaning unions, and all the things that occur there. I have some experience in that but I'm more of an employment law specialist. So things like civil rights in terms of disability law, Title VII, so sex, harassment, discrimination based on any protected category, including race and national origin, color, those types of things. It was organic, but also somewhat embedded, I guess, in either my personality or something that I just naturally, naturally gravitate, gravitated towards growing up. I read books around civil rights kinds of things, and it always piqued my curiosity and I enjoyed reading things that touched on civil rights. One example would be Richard Wright, who is a black author who writes incredible work on his experiences. And so that's that kind of informed my interest and piqued my interest and kind of carried through law school. And then I just gravitated towards it as a career. And when I was practicing, you asked about workplace investigations, I work with employers in terms of that's my customer who hires me. But I also know that I work for employees in the sense that I come in as a neutral independent fact finder for concerns that touch upon civil rights issues things, again, like discrimination, harassment, or seeing a lot of issues around bullying and kind of the hierarchy in organization. So abusive types of concerns around professionalism, respect, courtesy, there's a lot of those kinds of issues that are coming up.
Going back to the original question, I was drawn to kind of being my own business and having worked with clients that I continue to work with really employers and the human resource professionals that are out there, and other lawyers that hire me to do this type of work, again, to be a fair and neutral factfinder, to really listen to all sides and consider all perspectives in trying to figure out whether there are any sort of policy violations or just best practices not being followed, or something else. So it's a little bit of a kind of like putting together a puzzle. And I have a bunch of pieces on the table. And sometimes they click together. And other times, they don't. And sometimes they form a picture. And sometimes they don't. So I am able to kind of convey that to the employer and its employees to help them understand how to move forward, whether it's a discipline track, or a termination track, or something different that is kind of ongoing with employees and the relationship they have with their employers.
Michael, you talked about how you are hired by an employer, at the same time you work for both employer and employee and finding that balance of being neutral. Can you talk a little bit more about the the challenges of that of, you know, being hired by one and then having to support and essentially, you know, perhaps represent the other.
I think, again, it's all about perspectives and lenses that people view the world and view their interactions with their co-workers or bosses. I always look at situations through that perspective that everyone deserves to be heard, these are usually highly charged situations where people feel they've been discriminated against as an example. And on the other side of that is somebody who feels like they've been accused, oftentimes, wrongly, or misunderstood. And so it takes a certain personality, as well as kind of skill set to navigate that and to be really a good listener on all perspectives. So I tried to just listen to people and really kind of keep the emotions to the degree I can out of the investigation. But being compassionate for all, all this different perspectives is really important and key for me, so I always kind of keep that in mind that folks are going through something that they probably have never experienced in their lives. And it's a very emotionally charged situation. And so I just tried to be very calm presence. And again, neutrality is very important.
Yeah, I appreciate that it is about could they already going through some pretty traumatic and tough times. And so bringing that compassionate lens and, and also bringing that DEI lens that that you have. And so you mentioned this at the beginning of our conversation that you in addition to investigations, you have worked in this dei space for quite some time. What role does cultural differences or other forms of diversity play in the kind of investigations that you do?
That's a really great question. And I think most importantly, is having awareness of your own lenses and others perspectives and being aware and educated around things, like micro aggressions is, as you probably know, one of the big things that's really going on right now and so being aware of those kinds of concepts and terminology and reality for many people, also, you know, having awareness around cultural norms, so when you're you're meeting with witnesses, and interviewing them, just understanding that people are bringing different things to the table, so to speak, as well as how they view their interactions with others and their own awareness or non awareness of how they may come across to folks. So, you know, that's really I think key and navigating these issues and just having kind of a baseline, if you will, and the training and understanding of what those different cultural aspects may be and how it may feed into one's perception, either as a reporting slash complaining party or a responding party in a workplace investigation.
Have you ever found yourself having to explain some of these cultural differences to the employers as you're conducting your investigation?
It depends on the organization. So I work with a lot of public entities as well and educational clients. And so they're fairly sophisticated, the larger ones in terms of their diversity, equity, inclusion programs and lenses and policies. And then I work with smaller clients that could be nonprofits or other private businesses that aren't as sophisticated. They may not have handbooks or policies that are really echoing kind of what the best practices might be in terms of diversity, equity inclusion. And so yes, I do have to sometimes talk to those concerns and bring employers and managers and human resource people sometimes in terms of kind of understanding what's really going on in the workplace and trying to educate them about perhaps a different perspective that they may not have thought about.
Michael, you talked briefly about that about the trends and issues that you're seeing these days. Can you elaborate a little bit more on the current trends and and the shifts that you've seen over the last two or three years,
Definitely there's been a shift, I would say, a lot more highly placed, individuals are being alleged to have done, you know, discriminatory acts or harassing acts or bullying. And I think maybe it's because of the current political climate and the social climate that's really pervasive in our country right now. But maybe even the world in a larger way. So there's a lot of rawness, I would say that people are feeling oh, and you add in COVID. So there's been this isolation from daily interactions at work, which has changed things quite a bit. We're all you know, getting used to not working shoulder to shoulder in the normal workplace, and we're on Zoom meetings. And so that changes the dynamics quite a bit, again, political kind of things that are going on. And I think also some empowerment for people to say, "You can't treat me that way. It may not fit into the discrimination harassment box because of a protected category, but you're just not being very courteous or professional or you're abusing your authority." I think people are really standing up to that more than typical, and it can be at the highest levels of organization that really is somewhat different, I think, than what I've seen in prior years has been kind of at a lower level, if you will. And then finally, one other thing I want to add that I think is a trend is just a lot of mental health issues are coming up and pet some very interesting situations with people that are clearly having significant mental health issues that are being brought into this arena. They're complaining about discrimination, harassment, bullying, but they have literally a very complex mental health history, I think some of that, again, is because of COVID really becomes highlighted where people are isolated. And also people are maybe like having the time to review work or understand kind of what people are doing from a more objective viewpoint, perhaps because there's not that subjective interaction in the daily work.
So it sounds like the types of investigations have shifted a little bit, would you say that this awareness, and you talked about empowerment, and people realizing that, hey, you know, leaders can't do this sort of stuff and get away with it? What's your assessment on this?
I think it's a positive shift that people at all levels of an organization understand their rights and understand behavioral norms, and that they do feel empowered to bring that forward. And on the flip side, is that an organization's hopefully listening to that and making changes and understanding that business isn't going to continue to do those or encourage those things or maybe not be proactive about those types of issues. It's good in that sense for creating a healthier work environment and proactively telling employees at all levels of an organization that these types of behaviors are not allowed.
Yeah, and speaking of reckoning, after you've done your investigation and presented your recommendations and findings, how often do you see the employers taking your recommendations and acting upon it? And then as a follow up, what role do you play as an investigator in ensuring that these recommendations are followed through?
I am somewhat removed from that because I'm involved in the fact finding and assessment of whether policies are violated or best practices weren't followed. I do sometimes and make observations or recommendations that are outside of those areas. And so, you know, I may have observations around, this seems to be a communication challenge. The way you know, this person has been working with people is not emotionally intelligent. They speak, you know, from the hip, and it offends people. So I do make, again, kind of recommendations in terms of findings and policies and violations there. But in terms of corrective action, I don't typically get involved in that, because that's the employers prerogative, and they work with managers and HR and outside legal counsel to try to understand what your next steps should look like.
So Michael, at the risk of putting you out of work, What do employers need to do to create a work environment where hopefully, investigations aren't needed? So kind of thinking of it more of a preventative measure.
I think training is really critical. And that's really an overstated thing. But I think it's really interesting in some organizations that promote people into management or supervisory responsibilities. And yet, there's little, if any training in how to be a supervisor or manager. And there's almost this assumption that somebody who gets promoted should automatically have that skill set without really giving them any tools or training or guidance in terms of compliance and legal and emotional intelligence and cultural education in terms of diversity, equity, inclusion in the way people interact or communicate. So there's a lot of training that just is not pursued, and it's looked at as a cost. Whereas I would encourage you to think of it as an investment in your managers and in your workforce. So I think that that would probably be the best way for organizations to take preventative measures with that also is the rest of the workforce. And showing that not only is it valued in our managers and supervisors, but it's also value to frontline workers. And so it's really throughout the organization. And I think that gets lost sometimes and isn't emphasized. But just by doing a 360 degree approach. It shows something in terms of the employer understanding everyone's valued in the organization, there's a message there is my my point. And I think, again, if people feel valued, that really goes a long way to preventing claims or concerns in the future. I think there always be work so but I think it would help if employers really invest in their their employees,
Michael, we've talked a lot about workplace investigations and how it relates to diversity, equity and inclusion. Can you share any case studies or lessons learned from an investigation that I think our listeners might be able to take away from this?
Sure. So the one that jumps to mind involves a immigrant who came from a culture where communication was very different than here. So the dominant culture, if you will, and the person was African, I don't think they're giving away any sort of confidentiality there. And so there's in from a certain part of Africa, of course, but the complaint was against the person because of the way they appeared as aggressive and disrespectful and unprofessional. In investigating that concern and interviewing folks, it dawned on me that it really was a distinction and difference in the way that person came from their culture and the way that culture communicated with each other. And it just didn't mesh well for the dominant culture that was on the receiving end of that type of communication. And there was I don't think there was any intent in the way this person communicated. It just came across to others as being aggressive and unprofessional. And so in navigating that it was important for me to understand that there was different communication style, the intercultural communication was challenging because the recipients weren't used to this type of communication. And at the end of the day, it wasn't going into abuse or unprofessional, disrespectful. It was more around how the recipients were receiving the way this person was communicating, challenging case, in terms of the dominant culture and someone from different culture and kind of meshing the two part of it was for me to educate all sides and type in the types of communication that were taking place and just trying to figure out how those folks could move forward in working in the future and having understanding on both sides of that equation.
Yeah, I think that's a great example of the need to understand cultural differences and really getting to know the diverse workforce that we have. So thank you for, for sharing that. And thank you for being a supporter of Partners in Diversity for so many years. It's always a pleasure to see you and talk with you. And I appreciate you for being here and sharing your insights as well.
Thanks, Tracey. So I just really appreciate what you all do at Partners in Diversity and want to thank you for inviting me to share my my work and my story.
In addition to workplace investigations, Michael offers conflict resolution services and trainings on equitable employment policies and practices, reasonable accommodations for employees with disabilities, due process under Title Nine, affirmative action planning and others. This has been equity conversations, the podcast, a production of Partners in Diversity. Thank you for joining us. Until next time.
