Hello, and welcome back to our podcast. I am Danbee Shin. I'm a mentor for web designers and a global inclusion specialist. I am based in Switzerland. It's so funny because every time we start an episode, I have a moment where I go, what what am I going to say? How am I going to introduce myself? That is what I am. And this episode is all about fostering a sense of belonging in your business in your online business, whether you're a freelancer or an educator, a course creator, someone who works with people from an educators point of view. And with me is as always, Mariana.
Hey, Danbee. I'm Mariana Pena. I'm an instructional designer and IP consultant for revolutionary experts. I was talking to someone yesterday, and they asked me, what do you do, but don't give me like, technical jargon. I was, I'm your brain best friend. And I liked it. I was like, I think I want to use that more often. But yeah, I help people with anything and everything related to knowledge and educational products. This topic fostering belonging is very dear to my heart, because we've all have had that moment in our lives, where you either feel a part of the group or that you don't belong there. But we're going to take it step by step because as always, these conversations are not meant to be prescriptive. These conversations are not meant to be a lecture, we're just two people having conversations with you, that we have been having behind closed doors. And we want to bring this to everyone who is willing to listen and to join us in this self discovery, unlearning journey. We're gonna go back to basics. And when we hear belonging Danby, what comes to mind,
I have a recent reunion with a middle school friend. So we have been friends since we were maybe 1112 years old. And when I left that, half day with her, I felt like that true sense of belonging, like you said, it's a feeling. And if you've ever felt like you feel out of place, like you don't belong somewhere, you know what that feels like? I feel like maybe there aren't even words to describe that pain of feeling like this place is not the space is not for me. And no one understands me. And the reason I mentioned my day with my friend is because I really came away from that day feeling like, this person understands me, even when she doesn't understand aspects of who I am. She appreciates me for the person that I am, I don't have to pretend to be someone else. I'm like, I don't have to worry about what I'm gonna wear that day. Because I am wondering what she's going to think about it. I don't have to worry about seeing things by mistake. And I don't do that over analysis thing where afterwards, I'm like, Why did I say that thing at that moment, I don't have to worry about things like that. And that very cliche, like the comfort in the silence that person. And personal life is different from business life, but they are two parts of one life, they're not separate. And it's those feelings that I want to feel when I'm running a business. So for me, when you feel a sense of belonging and a space, it means that you can just show up as who you are, and you will be appreciated, not just tolerated, but you'll be appreciated for who you are.
It's almost like a gut reaction. When you immediately know, oh, I'm at peace, I'm at East, this is my place. These are my people. And it doesn't necessarily I'm not talking about ethnicity, I'm not talking about race. I'm just saying when you feel like you click you buy whatever your generational word it is to describe it, you feel it in your gut, you feel at ease in your body, and you don't feel like you have to censor yourself. And equally, that gut reaction appears when you feel like you're out of place. Like you don't belong there. And it does not doesn't necessarily has to do with some somebody saying something. It doesn't have to do with again, I'm gonna say ethnicity or race or culture because this can happen within your same cultural background and with other cultural backgrounds. For every one of us around the globe who falls under the non white spectrum. We have felt this at least once in our lives. And I would say for a lot of us who are immigrants who have been shifting identities for Our lives, this happens way more often than we would like to every day, every day it is. And again, it's not specifically something that somebody says, because I'm not talking about microaggressions. That's a whole topic, I'm just talking the feeling the sense that you don't belong there. Today, we want to focus on how to foster that feeling in your online business, whether you call yourself a freelancer, or a consultant, or an agency owner or a coach, it doesn't matter because you're interacting with people online, I think belonging A, it's just a concept that has become so academic, and it feels so rigid when we mentioned it, but we don't need a dictionary to tell us what it feels like. So if you're listening right now, this is your permission slip, you don't need to have a dictionary, you don't need to have the definition of belonging, because your lived experiences are valid. If you have felt that you belong somewhere, or you don't belong somewhere, you know exactly what we're talking about your work then be as a mentor for web designers around the world, and people who run their freelance services is very close to working with them on understanding what belonging is as a concept and almost like validating their experiences. And I am very curious, when did that realization happen for you, based on your own lived experiences that you thought or this has to be addressed in my mentorships? Or is it something that came from your conversations with your clients? How did that happen?
I don't think I realized for a really long time that I was trying to build a business surrounded by people who had in communities where I didn't belong, I was doing exactly the same things that I had done in my corporate life. The truth is, I feel very comfortable in white spaces. Because I know what the expectations are. I know what the rules are. I know how people see me, I know how to behave. I know how to carry myself to be taken seriously. But all of these things suggest like intent, right? I have to be so intentional about how I show up, when I realized I was doing those things, which hit me like a ton of bricks, because I had left my corporate life, to stop doing that to stop playing by other people's rules. And to just be able to be who I was. And realizing that I was doing that online. It was really like very confronting, because I didn't set out to do that I thought I was building my business to just show up as who I was. And be honest, unapologetically me, as a lot of people say, which is so hard to do. And those are things that I work hard to work through, I slowly started distancing myself from big names, which is so hard to do, I just unsubscribe from an email today, the person that I unsubscribe from when I was trying to work through my issues, those are the people I was surrounding myself with because it gave me validation. It made me look good online and make me look good on Instagram. I'm not saying those are the same people, but those other same kinds of people, where I would associate myself with them because it meant a lot for me to have an industry leaders say I was good I was I knew what I was doing. And it made me it was such a great ego boost as well. But when I realized the crap I had to work through to be like, I don't need these people's validation. Like these are not these people don't have the same values I do. They expect me to show up at 1am for regular calls, these people who don't respond to my emails, when I raise concerns, these people who only showcase white business folks or success stories, these people are not the people that I want to learn from. But when I started working through those issues, I realized I can't be the only person. Surely this is work that I need to be doing with other people. And I realized if I'm going to be offering business, mentorship to other web designers who want to build freelance businesses, this has to be part of the conversation. Like we have to find rooms where we feel like we've like doesn't even have to be a room honestly, it can be these one on one relationships. And I wanted to make sure that I was doing what I could to make sure that I was working with the right kinds of people, and that I'd be able to help them feel like they could just be themselves around me.
This whole series of conversation has that spirit of we're not the truth tellers. We are almost like bringing these topics because we are trusting that we can collectively rebuild collectively on learn. We have been trained through our entire life. If spend that proximity to power equals safety for non white people, that's just how it is. We can see that across industries, we can see that across systems and across the globe, it holds true because we live in a white supremacist society, right? That that is just a baseline. When we try to start our thing online for ourselves, we do so from a place of almost like naivete like either listen, I can get to be myself. And in reality, we don't know who we are. Because we have been conforming to norms, we have been censoring ourselves to think that we belong in places that were not built with us in mind. So we run into this almost like we hit these walls, right? Oh, hold on, why am I celebrating this? Why am I searching for these names to validate my existence? Do I have to do that they don't take me into account. That is a very confronting place, I celebrate you sharing this so vulnerable? Because I've been there too. And I think folks who are listening to us are nodding along because this happens to every one of us what I really like about these experiences that you this, you notice it, and then you assessed within yourself, Does this align with who I want to be? And you decided, no, they don't align with me. So now, what do I do? And that's
the ultimate question. Now what? Now? This is not what I want, how do I build what I do want. And there's some really great examples that I've been fortunate enough to encounter in the online business space. Let's talk about examples. Let's talk about what people are doing, right? Because I feel like when we look at these, like concrete examples, it's easier to pick out like a Why do I feel good in this space? What are they doing? There's a Facebook group for web designers, generally web designers, it's run by I don't think she's gonna mind me talking about her name is Sarah moon. And she's a web designer with a lot of experience and somehow, and I always say summer, because I don't know how she quite does it, she's pulled together a group of really great designers who have very similar values. It's the one group that I keep sending designers to. And I'm also very careful about who I sent to that group. Because I don't want to tell every single designer I encountered to be like, go hang out here. Because I want to preserve that sense of belonging, I want to preserve that culture within the group. And the reason I like hanging out there is because if I really have a concern about generally designed stuff, this generally the client situation or a business situation, I will go and ask and I don't mind looking stupid for something I've done in my business, I don't mind sharing it, what a pickle I have found myself in because I have seen through the conversations I that I see in that group, that it's okay, like a lot of people share from a place of vulnerability, and they always get so much support. And it's not just how it's okay, like surface level, you can tell when someone's saying nice things, and not really feeling yet your feelings. People don't just talk about client stuff. People talk about personal life stuff, when things get hard. How do I do this in my business, or when there are family conflicts, because that's all part of life. I truly feel like I know, we, the term safe spaces gets thrown around a lot very willy nilly. But it does feel like a truly safe space for that group of people. Clearly, people feel like they belong in this group, right? They can show up as they are they don't need to package themselves sugarcoat their problems. So you're like asking for a friend. This is not my situation. And I look at okay, like this is clearly a job well done. Like how is it being done? I think a big part of it is the way the moderator participates. Like she's not just this person at the top of the pyramid who like runs the group. She really offers advice from her perspective, I think there's just I don't know, is it just me or when you join these groups, whether it's 100 people or 5000 people or 50,000 people, the person who is the owner, the person who runs that group, they often feel like oh, you're, I feel like, if I ask a question, I can't expect that person to respond. Somehow there's a wall and they feel a bit distant. And it's almost like I have to respect that because how could one person And possibly respond to everyone? What is that? Do you know what I'm talking about?
So when we are interacting offline in the real world, where you get to feel people's energies, or you get to experience the sound of their voice, the Indonesians, how they move their bodies, you are reading all these cues that are communicating something, without even listening to the words, right? All of these cues are happening. At the same time, when we are interacting online, those cues are not there. So I want everyone to go through this quick exercise with me go back to a place a learning space that you participated in, before you were running your online business or participating in this online community. So typically, that would be for example, school, or maybe a workshop that you went to, when you sign up for that space. There is almost like an instant, like an instant math calculation in your brain. If you're at school, if you enter the class in 30 people and one facilitator, you're like, I can ask questions here. I can ask questions here, there's going to be enough time, you know, the time limits of the event. And you can run the numbers in your head intuitively, and you're like, I can ask questions. Now, I want you to switch scenarios, and I want you to go to speaking event, maybe you bought tickets to see Michelle Obama on tour, you instantly enter the venue. Now we're not talking about a class, we're talking about a venue, there are hundreds 1000s of people present. And you instantly know, I can ask a question here, right? You know that because every single cue that is entering your brain at that moment is reinforcing that acknowledgement of I'm here to listen, and to process what I'm listening to. And maybe if I'm very lucky, some other lucky folks are going to ask one or two questions, and maybe I will get some insights from that.
It's not like I'm gonna line up behind the mic, I'm gonna
line up because even if I do, it's just the time doesn't get right. Again, instant calculations in your head. Online, we don't have these cues. We we don't have that input. So our brain is solely focused on what we are reading the words that are appearing on our screen. Now, this is, of course, a whole nother topic on ableism. But that's just for the sake of the exercise, assume that we can read the words that are appearing on the screen, when there is a host of a group online that has hundreds or 1000s versus just a few dozens of people online, there has to be intentional culture building, there has to be explicit culture building, that foster that belonging, because we don't have those cues. I register, I sign up for an online community, I'm not going to see every single name that is part of that I don't have the time to do that. And I'm also not like a lurker. So I'm not gonna go through every single profile to get a sense of what the energy is no, I'm gonna take the cues from the host of that group. When that host has grown that group to the point where they don't feel they have to explicitly build that belonging or explicitly build that sense of culture inside the community, then the culture is they don't care about me, I cannot expect them to care about me or my issue, or my question. Because let me tell you belonging or not belonging is going to happen whether you want it or not. So we might as well do it intentionally. So online, we have to be very explicit. So in this case, this success case, and you're talking about, this is a very intentional role that the host of the group is taking on. And I can guarantee that it takes a lot of energy to lose. But there is a level of awareness and a level of responsibility that if I gather these people in this room, we need to make it work in a way that is positive, it becomes a positive experience for everyone inside. If that level of awareness and responsibility is not there, then the experience of the participants in that community is gonna vary enormously. If you're part of the inner group, you're gonna feel amazing. And if you're not, then you don't belong.
I really your point about explicit cues online I find so interesting. And this comes back to you okay, what are specific things? Because belonging is a feeling and it feels so strange. They'll analyze it and be like, how do we make this feeling but there are explicit cues Sir, are basically required and the online spaces because of the fact that we are experiencing each other through screens, like you saying. So one of those cues, was being like really present and really, like paying attention to what the individual people are saying. And through that you get to know those individual people, I feel like what happens is, when the moderator when the host of a space really pays attention to every single person, they will post more, and then you get to know them better. And I feel like it just the positive cycle that way. Something else that I have seen is being intentional about who is in that group. Because we know that the internet is a mean space, the trolls come out, it's so easy. And amazingly on Facebook, where your profile photo and your full name is often visible, people will say, some really cruel, like really flipping really insensitive things. But that doesn't happen in this group. And I think it sets the tone for everyone else to be like, No, this is a space where we can be over the top supportive of each other. Like if someone posts I've been in groups where someone will post Oh, this is the latest project I worked on, just to share, like literally just to say this is what I did. In one group, that kind of post might get like no comments, zero engagement in social media terminology. And in this group, people will be like, Oh, my gosh, this is amazing. Can I see more examples of this? Like, how did you do that? And that tone of the conversation is just really different. Have you seen it groups like that? And what are they doing? Right?
Yes, yes, I can share a few experiences. So it's very easy to pair up belonging, and an online community. It doesn't necessarily have to be a group setting. You can have that sense of belonging on your one on one work with clients and conversations, I have had amazing coffee chats with people that I meet online, and oh, we're vibing let's get to know each other. And then we haven't a one on one conversation or like, oh, this something's off or the country like we talking about, oh, my God, you are my people. And I say that right away. Because if you don't, I don't want people listening to this to feel that if they are not hosting an online community, they cannot work on fostering belonging. That is not the case. You can absolutely do that with one on one interactions. But I recently made a choice of joining a group program. I think it's a mastermind, I don't really care for the terminology, but it's a group setting. And I chose that group. Because for a while I did my homework. And for a while I was following what the host of the program was doing online like a few years, I would say. And I was tracking the interactions she had with her clients online, I was striking how much she celebrated. The people that she worked with that is very important for me. And the way she spoke about her clients, because it's very typical in the online space that coaches just take ownership of the work of the clients, when they give advice, it's still up to the client to do the work. And I don't like to engage with those type of coaches, and, oh, my client did this because I told her to, I don't care for that. It feels very exploitive. For me. I'm not saying for everyone, but that is like my feeling. So I was tracking her work. I was tracking the work of her clients, how they interacted with each other. And when the enrollments open for this cohort, she explicitly said, if you're thinking about joining my program, I know that community is a very like it's a pivotal part of reaching success within the program. So I invite you to contact the people who are currently in the cohort. Oh, and I thought, interesting, that is such a revolutionary act in and of itself, the fact that you are telling your people in order to make quote unquote, make it as a woman of color in business because that's like the niche of this program in order to make it unique community that is going to hold you through everything that is going to happen because things are going to happen and you need community there is going to back you up. I have that community and I invite you to get in contact with them and ask them so she removed herself. From that conversation. She opened up the doors and she said, if you want to vet me, you should also talk to the people who are in the cohort. I've never I was, I was instantly like that I was instantly sold. I was like, that kind of honesty, I can get behind. And that made me feel, I think I belong there because
she was so open and honest. And because of the size the community
because there was a clear connection between her values, the values of the program, the content of the program, and the people inside the program. And you don't see that happening, especially for masterminds. People are very closed doors. Unless they are like the case studies, like the superstar students that reach the goals, they are very closed off, they don't want you digging deep, because then you're gonna find out. It's not all bells and whistles. And I did contact every single person that she mentioned, I contacted and I had conversations with them on DMS, they were very open, they were like this happened to me, this was my scenario before, this is my scenario. Now, I still need to work on this. And I found that very insightful. When I joined the program, I was not surprised. That was the culture inside the program also, even for the new folks that we joined. Yeah. Because again, when you set expectations and culture explicitly, you make it very easy for people to decide whether or not they belong there. And I think that is something that is missing in the online communities and groups that I see around, we are almost afraid of saying these are my values. And this is what I stand for, to the point of censoring ourselves, especially if we are people of color. Especially we're black, indigenous Brown, if you're quote unquote, ethnic, where you don't want to stand out because our past lived experiences have taught us not to. It's not safe. That's like the most recent example where I've seen this is how you foster belonging. In your business in your community, with future clients even estimating
I'm thinking I want to go back to something you said about fostering that sense of belonging doesn't just have to happen in groups. And almost it actually does have, it must happen in one on one relationships before it can spread into that community, in the shape of the community. And a lot of the people who are hopefully going to be listening will have, you know, service based businesses where a lot of the work is done in one on one settings, I feel like it might be helpful to translate some of these aspects to so that they're more relevant in the end scenarios. And something that's come up for me is, we were talking about that transparency and communication and the need for community. Like the community can't exist without one on one relationships, even things like responding to emails, putting care into your emails, responding to people on social media, like those things like that's where belonging starts, I'd love to hear your thoughts around that kind of one on one communication.
I think there are so many little details that we tend to take for granted. I'll start with our names. So I recently had a new client. And I was so happy to have the opportunity to work with her. Because when we had our sales goal, the first exchange that we had was, she says, can you tell me if I'm pronouncing your name correctly? Mariana is that correct? I said yes. And I asked her the same about her name. That was our first exchange. Love it. I felt, I want to work with you. If you can take five seconds of your time to ask me how to correctly address me that has such an impact on who I am, how I am being valued in that communication exchange. And it's just such a little thing. It doesn't cost you one penny and it gives you a little bit of vulnerability and ego. Yes, your ego and it goes so long. And transferring that to email communication. Just pay attention how the person is signing their name. Oh, my name is Mariana. And I have had a lot of white women addressing me. Allah Maria. Hey, Maria. I have no issues with the name Maria is just not my name. It's just not my name. So I would say even for one on ones, just little details like those pronouns are also part of this conversation. I would say a third of my current clients are bilingual. They speak Spanish and English and believe before we have a full conversation And whether that is a sales call or our first curriculum design call, I always ask them, What do you prefer? Do you want to have this conversation in English? Do you want to have it in Spanish? You want to have it Spanglish. I'm good with either, but I'm giving them the opportunity to be themselves. And sometimes they know and sometimes they have never been asked that question. And again, belonging goes to your gut reaction. And your gut reaction has to do with who you are, your identities are such a core part of who you are. So acknowledging those identities on the other side of that exchange is such a, it's such a, I would say, like a primal way of connecting with them and creating that sense of belonging. So if you are having a coffee chat, if you're having a sales call, if you're having a work, go with someone, just those little details go a very long way. And they won't forget, they won't forget, even if they don't work with you, I have had those occasions where there's a sales school that happens, and we ended up not working together for whatever reason, and they still refer me
I really liked what you said about you're giving them opportunities to be themselves. And some of the hardest conversations can be when things aren't going well, like this was one of the hardest things for me to learn. And this is one of the hardest areas where I am still doing a lot of growing as a mentor, where when things aren't going well, because it's a one on one relationship. It's a really, in a way intimate relationship, we're talking about someone's livelihood, there are going to be rough patches. And I've had the same thing with my own business coach who I've been working with for years. And I think the way we deal with those situations, also, there are an opportunity to not just resolve the conflict, but resolve the conflict in a way that allows both of us to be ourselves. And this is something that I'm learning to address at the beginning of a mentorship relationship to be for example, if you ghost me, if I keep checking up on you, and you ghost me, what does that mean? Like? How do you want me to support you? Do you want me to keep sending you reminders? Because that's what's helpful? Do you want me to give you space and let you know, I'm going to check back in two weeks, something else? Or what does that look like? I think the more we look, the more opportunities there will be to ask people what do you prefer? Like how do you work best what, like what allows you to be you, without me telling you, this is how we're going to do things that
is being very explicit in your communication style. It also gives the opportunity for neurodivergent folks who, who have not been seen before, who have been pushed into operating in a certain way. And that has failed for them. I have a past client and she's a friend too. And I learned so much from her. Because when we started working together, she said sometimes I just cannot show up with the camera. We said okay, we have just calls. And I said that's perfectly fine. In certain days, it will be like I can only do this via boxer, is that okay? That's perfectly fine. So belonging is not going through a checklist. This is the definition these are this is the checklist check. Now I belong or now my clients around here. No, belonging is an everyday journey. It changes from interaction to interaction, depending on the environment, the context, the person, but what is beautiful is that it most of the time, you can create that for free people tend to come up with this wrong idea that oh, no, that sounds like a very complicated file. That sounds like a lot of tech. No.
It doesn't know funnel required. No follow required.
Yeah, if somebody is listening to this Dombey and they are like, Okay, that sounds great. I don't know where to begin. What is the one suggestion that you could give them? My
answers to these are always so boring. It's always to look at your own experience. I feel Look at yourself. I would go back to when's the last time you felt that sense of belonging that can mean your personal life that can mean your business. I would go back to your emails. There are some emails that will have pissed you off because of the way it was written the way it addressed you the way it disrespected for you respected you. There'll be emails where you felt like oh, this person like I can talk to this is a really Have a conversation. And I would pay attention to those, that's a really important step that you should not skip before going, What can I do in the way I talk to my clients and the way I talk to my students,
I really like that. And if you're listening to this, and you are a course creator, or when you work with knowledge, I would like to invite you to take a moment whenever you are creating your next digital product. And think if what you're saying, and what you're teaching has that undertone of, I want people to feel like when they are learning this, they can learn it and still be themselves. I'm not forcing them to become me. I'm not forcing them to replicate what I'm saying. I'm just giving them a learning tool, a business tool that they can implement if they choose to. And I think that's a very beautiful way that you can think about your learning products, whether these are online courses, masterminds, memberships, PDFs, whatever it is that you're selling with your knowledge, we just think that you can make the effort intentionally to allow people to be themselves, I'll share before we
wrap up what I am going to do for my curse community after this conversation, I've always wanted my course the Fast Track system, which is all about the systems you have in your web design business. I wanted this to be something that people can take an implement in their own businesses. And I feel like I've structured it in a way where it's like, it's totally doable. It's, for my perspective, super easy. But I want to provide more kind of support around how do we make this fit who you are. And I'm going to go back to my course and see what I can do so that like you say, I'm not here to tell you like to be me, or so implement. I'm here to help you do that. And you're away. So I just had the idea of asking people what element of the course or you're working through that's not working for your business? And can we talk about it so that I can give you guidance and make it easier for you to make that work for your business instead of trying to shape your business around how other people are doing things?
Oh, that sounds wonderful. I'm curious not to see the new iteration of that course.
Always a work in progress. It's always a work in conversations are so truthful. Thank you so much for this conversation about that sense of belonging. I feel as online business owners, there are explicit things that we can do to show our customers or clients, people in our communities that you know, you belong, as all of these things that are so closely related to our values. Not everyone is going to belong in your community in your business. And I think that's also completely okay. But it's important to be explicit about who does belong.
As always, if you want to continue this conversation, connect with us. We love interacting with people. We love having open communication channels with you. So wherever you hang out, we are there to send us a message and we can continue.
Sounds good. You will always find our handles and all the links in the show notes. Thank you so much. Mariana.
