It's a different lifestyle, being a railroad or being a train conductor, though especially starting out, you know that train conductor is going to be someone who's on call six days a week, and then they're off two days a week. But when they're available for those six days, they're on call 24/7. It's obviously outdoors to trains don't operate inside. So people who can be successful working outside working in the elements when they're especially when they're challenging. That starts to sound a lot like a train conductor.
The concept of working on the railroad was so popular at one time in the United States of America that it was immortalized in song. But what does it mean today, this is random acts of knowledge presented by Heartland Community College. I'm your host, Steve fast. Today we're taking a peek inside of the modern rail industry with the representative from one of the biggest railroads in the country.
I'm Brad Dodd, the Director of Talent Acquisition for Norfolk Southern Railroad.
So Brad, you tried to get people to go work on the railroad? As they say, is that hard to do nowadays? Is there any kind of shortage and people work in the railroad industry,
it definitely doesn't come without its challenges. And especially in a labor market that's really still at some unprecedented unemployment rates, certain jobs a little bit more challenging than others. And train conductors is by far our highest volume job will actually hire on any given year, really a couple of 1000 different train conductors. And we have 100 Different rail yards across 22 states. And so some will get maybe five or 10, but others will need 50 and 75. And so being strategic about where we're putting our efforts and where we're competing in different labor markets, different towns can certainly be a challenge for us at times.
So what does it mean to be a train conductor in the 21st century? Because it's a job? I think a lot of people almost have a nostalgic understanding of what that mean, what does the modern train conductor do? What's that job like?
It had been nostalgia, there's kind of a piece of Americana about being a railroader. And being a train conductor, you know, in the job today is it has its similarities and differences than it does from, you know, 100 years ago. And so we've been around 195 years and there's aspects of a train conductor that's identical to what it was 195 years ago, we're were moving freight from A to B, we're an industry and a job that's really vital to this country's economy to make sure products are on store shelves or as gasoline or electricity for your car or your Home Essentials, this national security this country. What's changed over time. And what a conductor's job is has continued to evolve into as being one that uses a lot more technology. And its day to day, you can obviously imagine 195 years ago, there weren't computers and cell phones. And today on a locomotive, there's those things and a train conductor is going to have a mobile train device that's mirrored just after a cell phone. Much like a FedEx worker or a UPS delivery driver when they come up and they scan your package and you signed for it. Very similar technologies going into railroading today, I'm gonna train conductors day to day responsibilities are
what are some of those day to day responsibilities? What's the conductor do?
Yeah. So the conductor in contrast to the locomotive engineer, the conductor is going to be the person who is boots on the ground, they're going to be the individuals, uncoupling rail cars, coupling rail cars, climbing up and down rail cars to operate hand brakes, they're going to make sure that rail cars are delivered in the exact location at customer facilities or they're pulled out of customer facilities safely, they're going to make sure that they understand all the traffic restrictions or the speed limits while that train is going up and down the tracks and communicate and work with their engineer counterpart. So everyone knows you know, any speed restrictions or track impediments that may be ahead for them to look out for and make sure they're operating appropriately?
So what kind of person thrives in this kind of job? And what kind of skills does somebody need going into it?
Yeah, so and thrive is a word we use a lot out here. It's a different lifestyle, being a railroad or being a train conductor, their union job, and so they're governed a lot by union seniority. And so especially starting out, you know, that train conductor is going to be someone who's on call six days a week, and then they're off two days a week. But when they're available for those six days, they're on call 24/7. So that may mean they're going to get called into work at 2am or on a Saturday or holiday even. And so individuals who can be successful in a very non traditional lifestyle, who can be a bit flexible, and when they can go to work and times they get called into work. It's obviously outdoors too, you know, trains don't operate inside. So people who can be successful working outside working in the elements when they're especially when they're challenging. That starts to sound a lot like a train conductor, and most importantly, someone who can work safely and we have a good list of our kind of standard operating procedures or safety rules that Our employees have to be able to hear to and follow to make sure that they're keeping themselves and their peers, the communities and the equipment safe. People who become train conductors, A to Z, we really take individuals from just such varied backgrounds varied experiences. And a lot of that has to do with is we train people from the ground up, we have about a four or five month training program, that train conductors will start off in McDonough, Georgia, they'll spend three weeks down there kind of going through a conductor boot camp, if you will. And then they'll come back to their work location and continue training for four or five, six months until we feel like they're ready to be off on their own. And so we'll take people from just those varied backgrounds, if they can be successful in the lifestyle and the work environment about doors. We'll train them on how to be a conductor. So there's no special certifications or experiences that we're looking for nowhere to bring someone on and give them a chance to be successful.
So in a similar type of job, but similar industry, transportation, there have been recent upticks in or CDL license truck drivers for females, and there's a little bit more diversity in that field than there used to be. Is that an issue with the rail industry? Is it getting more diverse? Or do you are you seeking more diversity in that industry?
We are it is a challenge. And much like the trucking industry, and it's an area where we continue to try to find outlets and avenues where we can improve on our representation and make this more of a accommodating job. There's aspects that are unfortunately going to change like the call schedules at times, working nights and working holidays. And so that makes it tough for anyone to come out into this role, especially women who may be the primary caregivers or the household caregivers, we very much are able to hire women out here and those who can be successful, we try to empower them, champion them, go to them for resources, opinions on how we can better recruit and better bring on women into this role to increase representation. It's not for everyone, male or female apart. It's unfortunately not for everyone. But it's something that we continue to try to seek outlets for and over to build on to our diversity.
Well, something that that we've seen that's a little bit similar in transportation with with trucking, is that there is a little bit of an aging out problem, too. Is that the case in the railway industry that you might be looking at a long term worker shortage gap, because we haven't seen as many people getting into those fields as maybe we did 20 years ago. You know, it's
it's a good question. And we definitely think about peep the railroad isn't that type of employment that people think of maybe that they did 2030 years ago, you know, back generations ago, I think people would be more apt to tell you that if you could get on a job with a railroad, you were set for life. And a lot of those aspects remain true today. But the branding and the perception of the railroad has probably changed over time, as you've seen technology and new industries come online, that the transportation industry has maybe taken a bit of a backseat to those. So it's definitely part of our job to get out there and make sure that we're bringing awareness to the transportation industry. At the end of the day, no matter what global economy we may be in goods are gonna have to ship from A to B. And the transportation industry in the railroad industry is a vital part of that industry is a vital part of that equation and will remain a vital part of that equation. The economies of scale for railroading are one that trucks have a hard time competing with, we can move over 200 containers on a single train and beings being able to transport that type of volume efficiently. And a speed that really competes with trucks, you know, he's going to continue to have the railroads viable generation of regeneration going forward. So what are
some of the things that people don't know about this kind of job and about the industry in general,
the railroad industry, the AAR, American Association of railroads puts out a great data point that railroads and the rail industry is really one of the most competitive paying industries out there, believe their numbers around 9596 percentile, all industries and, you know, whether you're a train conductor or train dispatcher, or you know, at the corporate headquarters, these are really really stable jobs moving freight, like I said earlier, from A to B, the economies of scale. When we see, you know, layoffs in the job market and tech sector layoffs, we kind of look internally at the railroad and go, we're always hiring. We may be hiring in different volumes, but we're usually always hiring. And so these jobs that we're able to provide are really vital to this country's economy. They're well paying jobs, great benefits. And I'll tell you one of the often underappreciated overlooked benefits of being a railroader is we don't pay Social Security, railroads and Norfolk Southern and other railroads are actually exempt from Social Security and there's a neat little history story behind it to win And the railroads were continuing to develop their footprint across the country in the early 1900s. They saw this need to really take care of their employees and their employees, families after their working careers were done. And so the railroads before FDR is New Deal, the railroads came out with their own version of Social Security, which is a federal government program just like Social Security. But obviously, it's only for railroaders. And so when FDR came out with the Social Security program and the New Deal, we are legally written in as an exemption to the Social Security Law. And the maybe the best fact about what we have in railroad Railroad Retirement as it pays out twice as much as social security. So anytime we see in the news, maybe that there's a you know, rates gotta go up, or it's underfunded and going to go away by year 2030, we feel pretty good over at the railroad and what we have going on, we're still able to offer a pension, few companies can offer a pension today, we still have a lifetime pension, as well as a 401k. So being a railroader can be kind of lucrative in the short term, and very lucrative in the long term as well. And so we just like to get now at telling our story, bringing some awareness to people about the opportunities that we have and how we can support them. I'll just add, especially for you know, the industry in general, we, we move everything, if you can conceptually think of it we either move the finished product, or the raw goods that go into the finished product. You know, railroads are apt to move stuff, long haul, we compete with trucks, but trucks are actually our customer, too, in a way. And so we'll move a good, you know, 500 miles across country, and then we'll hand it off to a truck to deliver that last five or 10 miles because not every customer of ours is brought it up right against a railroad track. Some of our customers are some of the biggest brand name blue chip companies you've heard of including the UPS is of the world and the Amazons of the world. But also oil and gas and farming companies like ADM, one of our largest customers out here in the central Illinois area,
what is the breadth of the operations for Norfolk Southern? How regional is it? There are if anybody's played Monopoly? Yeah, so many railroads.
And so a lot all of those railroads still exist today, just through mergers and acquisitions, and to other railroads. Some of those railroads exist at Norfolk Southern Railroad. And really, in the United States, there's four major US railroads, two out west, which are going to be Union Pacific and the BNSF. BNSF is Warren Buffett's railroad, they're a private company. And then all East you have the CSX Railroad and of course, Norfolk Southern. So for the most part, our territories don't overlap, especially east to west. And so even with that, we have to work together that all the all the railroads combined, we have to work together, because we can only take freight so far, in which we may have to hand it off to CSX. Or we may have to hand it off to a West Coast Railroad to continue going out to California. And so we all while we compete against each other, we all actually have to work with each other as well share locomotives and make sure rail cars get passed off efficiently and effectively. And Norfolk Southern our system is 22 states on the eastern half of the country. And so we'll go southwest down to New Orleans, all the way out west to Kansas City, Chicago, and then going back east will be all the way east up to Buffalo, and New York City and down southeast towards Jacksonville, and kind of everything in between that is where we operate. And so we have a pretty large footprint that covers the majority of the country's population that we have to serve.
How long of a run? Does a train typically have it? Does it typically go across a good chunk of data at any given time? And how often are people getting switched out? Yes. And what does that mean for the employees?
Yeah, so a train itself will typically go hundreds and hundreds of miles across many states. And so if you think about a train that's going to go from Chicago, Illinois to New York City, essentially, that train is going to travel quite a few hundreds of miles. And it's going to stop and change crews about every two to 300 miles. And so we're regulated by the federal government and the Federal Railroad Administration, the FRA and much like truck drivers and air traffic controllers, there's a certain number of hours our employees are allowed to work before they have to stop and get some rest before fatigue might set in and start to become unsafe. And so that limit will be about 12 hours and so they'll take trains to designated points stop and a new crew will get on and continue that train moving. In our trains are when they're moving at top speed. They're typically moving around 5560 miles per hour. So overall, we feel good. We're able to compete with that truck like market. We offer a truck like service going essentially highway speeds up and down the railroad.
So how long do the crews have to be off? I'm sure it's just like the airline industry where you have to be off so many hours. Before you can go back to work again. And what happens is you just wait for another train that needs crew to come on just like an airline, or how does that work for the employees.
So crews, a person has to be off at least 10 hours, once they put off duty, they have 10 hours of what we call undisturbed rest, we can't call them to work or call them and ask them a question. That's the designated time to get some rest, get some sleep, and be ready to get caught back into work after that 10 hours. And so it's on us as a railroad to make sure logistically, we're planning our people out appropriately planning our train schedules out appropriately. So when a train stops, there's a crew there ready to go to continue at moving versus a train stop. And we said we still got three or four hours before the next crews ready to continue that train moving on. So we work a lot with our logistics team and supply chain team to make sure that our schedules are such that there's minimal to no downtime to get a train across country.
Sounds like those logistics can be complicated to one person on a crew or a couple of people on a crew might get sick. That's when you have to call somebody else in to join that crew, that sort of thing. That is that something that you know, is often a problem,
it can cause problems, we carry essentially extra conductors in if other industries have things called extra boards. And so do we. And so if a train conductor calls out sick, who would have been scheduled to get called into work at 10pm, there's a list of extra board train conductors who are available 24/7, who step up and take that person's place. And so all go on well, we have a good number of extra board, train conductors and locomotive engineers for when people call off sick and also take their vacation and take their personal days as well. So we can continue to make sure that we have our freight covered. And one great benefit about those extra employees as well. They may be deemed extra and not work five days a week, they have what we call a guaranteed minimum earnings. And so as long as they're available and not calling out sick themselves. If they work, say two days a week, and they their compensation isn't great for those two days, we're going to bump them up to a guaranteed minimum earning level in order to make sure that they're well compensated even though they didn't maybe work a full four or five days a week. And so benefits like that can be a little unique to the railroad kind of help us maintain a workforce that can continue to earn money, even you know, in slower weeks or slower months, if we're not moving as much freight as we thought we would or didn't have as big of a need of an extra board as we thought we would typically
is there a lot of cross training that happens in these sorts of jobs to people start out as a conductor and say move into another job. I mean, like you said, it sounds like it can be kind of physically demanding. So I think as people might get older, they're like, I don't want to work outside as much at you know, I want to move into a different thing maybe advanced to more more training, different type of job, maybe higher pay, is that do you have a lot of internal advancement or are these things where people have distance, different specialties, and they're coming in from different,
you know, a little bit of both. And by design, there's definitely internal advancement for train conductor, specifically, where after a certain number of years, that individual is going to promote to a locomotive engineer. And so one unique thing about railroading in Norfolk Southern is is we don't hire locomotive engineers and train people to be one, we look at our train conductor population and through union seniority. When someone's the senior most conductor in the union, they're the next person to become a locomotive engineer. And so they'll take that promotion to become a locomotive engineer, which becomes a six figure job a well paying job. And it's a little less physically demanding as well as someone who's inside the locomotive, not boots on the ground, you know, sitting down operating locomotive forwards and backwards. Aside from that, there's also some additional advancement opportunities that people can apply for and, you know, after they've maybe continue their education or showing that they are, you know, kind of very good, especially in its supply chain space. And so a lot of our transportation supervisors are former conductors and engineers who have decided to go into management, jobs that are not union based jobs. Some of our highest kind of ranking transportation supervisors were men and women who started as train conductors show that they had that skill set to become a supervisor, we can go into management, and they've been excelling for decades, really. There's also an opportunity for people to look into different maybe mechanical type crafts, those become a little bit more of a challenge just because those are different unions. And they often means you know, resetting your seniority, which can become a challenge for maybe for someone who's got 10 years into the railroad and say I have to start my seniority all over again, if I want to go to a different union type of mechanical craft or electrician, electrical kind of craft.
So this is probably the most important thing I have to ask you out of everything we talked about here today. When I'm stuck at you know, a crossing for a long time, whose fault
is it? It's, it can be a number of things. I've made the best advice I'll give you as if the train is not moving, I wouldn't wait on the train, I would unfortunately go find a different path around, the train is moving and keeps on moving. And obviously, it'll be clear and hopefully a short amount of time. You know, sometimes it could be, you know, there's an incident ahead, and we're trains consistently moving across 20 states, and at any given time, we have four or 500 trains across our system, you know, things can back up if maybe there's a derailment. And obviously, when we stop a train, we very much try to intentionally not stop it on things like railroad crossings. But the way that the railroads grew up, especially out west away from population centers in the early 1900s, or late 1800s. And then towns kind of grew up around the railroads. There's a few locations unfortunate on our system, where it's just logistically hasn't been grown up conducive to a train having to take a quick pause and maybe not block a few railroad crossings. Unfortunately,
see, I thought as an employee of Norfolk Southern, when I asked you whose fault it was, you would just tell him Amtrak,
that we play nicely with Amtrak, while they use our railroad tracks to move their passenger trains from A to B, we try to give them priority, we try to make sure that they have kind of first come first serve when it comes to routes through our network to make sure that the general public and Amtrak passengers are having a good railroad experience overall and north we certainly don't want to be Norfolk Southern diminishing that experience.
That raises the question though, I always thought it was very amazing. You know, when you look at it, there's a lot you don't see, as a passenger, there's a lot, you know, driving when you see the the tracks, but those logistics involve different vehicles moving at different speeds. And different track patterns I would imagine is everything plotted out kind of like it with an airplane, how they have to have their flight plan, do the engineers have to have a kind of a flight plan for their trip, at least from one area to another,
they do there. There are a lot of similarities really between airlines and airline logistics and train logistics. And so you nailed it when you said certain trains can go certain speeds, obviously a freight train that we operate here at Norfolk Southern, even if it can go 60 miles an hour, still takes a long time for that train to get up to speed to go from zero to 60, which is very different from an Amtrak train that can go from zero to 60. And really, very quickly compared to the railroad. And so we have a train dispatching Center in Atlanta, Georgia, where company headquarters is that that's very much like air traffic control, when they're plotting out what trains are going what speed how heavy trains are, is it 5000 tons? Or is it 15,000 tons? And so how fast is it going to take for that train to get up to track speed? What's coming in, there's trained priorities to because when we're moving container traffic or UPS or the mail for the government, that's going to have to move a little bit faster than say, maybe a coal train that has you know, a day or two to get to its final destination. And so prioritizing understanding train dynamics, all goes into that equation.
Well, Brad, thanks for coming in today and talking about railroad industry and, and revisiting the college and talking to our students as well about the opportunities that they might find out there.
Hey, thank you for having me.
Brad Dodd is a Director of Talent Acquisition at Norfolk Southern. He spoke with Heartland Community College students about careers in the rail industry, and does outreach to young people about the jobs available at his company. If you're interested in other podcast interviews about transportation, history or other topics, subscribe to random acts of knowledge on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you found this one. Thanks for listening
