Cardio is Destroying Your Results - The Science on Optimising Nutrition & Fitnes

8:10AM May 2, 2023

Speakers:

Angela Foster

Holly Baxter

Keywords:

guess

work

training

tracking

carbohydrate

resistance training

good

people

women

clients

protein

calories

body

programme

muscle

nutrition

find

day

fat

cardio

If you're doing you know an hour of cardio six days a week, they're resistance training, and they're in a calorie deficit or if things are likely to really negatively impact someone's energy availability for the purposes of muscle recovery.

Over hands, I think most of us want to be in good shape. We want to increase our healthspan not just our lifespan. But what are the implications of extreme fasting on the female body of calorie deficits? And also, if you have a history for example, of an eating disorder, simply just tracking your food can cause problems and a resurgence in those thoughts that sometimes may have plagued you in the past. So how can you get lean and healthy and feel fit and vibrantly full of energy in a way that is healthy for both your mind and body and specific for women? Well, I'm excited to introduce you to today's guest. It is Holly Baxter, who is a dietitian and science educator and she has been involved in the health and fitness industry for over 30 years. She graduated from Deakin University as a food scientist and nutritionist in 2011 and went on to complete her Master of dietetics in 2013, and she now practices as a clinical dietitian and online science educator. She has been heavily involved in sports throughout her life. She's an author, speaker and one of the leading females in the nutrition and fitness industry. And amazingly, she continues to participate in the sport of bodybuilding as a professional physique athlete, claiming to world championship level wins in the natural fitness division. She definitely knows her stuff when it comes to nutrition and fitness. I learned a tonne On this episode, I think you will too. So without further delay, let me introduce you now to Holly Baxter. So Holly, thank you so much for joining us today. I'm really excited to talk to you about the female body and how to really optimise our training and nutrition for kind of the ultimate edge in fitness. Firstly, a very warm welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me. So I guess the first thing is, can you give listeners a little bit about your background? How did you get into bodybuilding? Yeah, so

it's a funny long story, but I'll try to keep it brief. For the the key points. I think, originally, I was pretty sporty as a kid. So I did every sport you could think of. But my favourites were, you know, basketball, I do track sprinting and athletics. And I competed at a very high level back when I was living in Australia. So I'm located in Florida, USA now recently relocated in 2017. But I guess growing up in Australia, there weren't really a whole lot of opportunities as a young female, to pursue a career in sport. And it's really unfortunate because I loved it. And I think I kind of got to that point where you're making some pretty big decisions about you know, going off to college, and or pursuing my dream to be like an Olympic athlete. And it just didn't weigh out for me. So I guess the closest thing to that was to put myself in, you know, from an educational standpoint to kind of work with these people. So I went off and did a master's in dietetics. And I also did an undergraduate in food science and nutrition. So I kind of threw myself in from the nutrition standpoint, that was obviously a really important part of my training. And I've actually also contributed to a lifetime of disordered eating, which I'm sure we'll get into maybe at some point throughout the podcast today, but I definitely had a very strong focus on you know, how to optimise my physique for my performance. So after kind of graduating from my master's, I went off and did clinical dietetics for a little while, and found myself kind of working across a wide range of different patient groups. So interestingly, dietitians actually work with quite a few unique subsets of populations, probably more than I guess the average person would know about. I think if I quizzed you know, nine out of 10 people would say, hey, yeah, they work for, you know, fat loss or weight loss predominantly. But we actually work with cardiothoracic patients. We work with infectious disease, hepatic, you know, liver patients, people with kidney problems and a host of other different disease states. So, I found that when I was working in that clinical environment, the people there were so like, opposing to my you know, motivations. They didn't have that drive to be healthy. They didn't want to be, you know, rough like refining and tailoring their nutrition to you know, optimise their health. or, you know, their longevity, it was, it was really, really depressing. And, you know, I just didn't find that very fulfilling. So after, you know, I think was about 18 months, I stayed in the clinical space, I was like, I can't do this anymore, it's making me miserable. Like, you know, you've got these patients there that are being referred by their doctor that don't even want to be there. So I opened my own practice. And I also kind of around the same time, opened up a gym, and was running like, you know, an unlimited number of boot camps to our participants, people that would join up and become members of our club. And then I was also doing our clinical dietetics. But with people that were more sports specific. So that was right up my alley, you know, these people were motivated, they were full fee paying, they wanted to be there, and I just loved it. So it wasn't until I started working with physique competitors, to kind of optimise their body composition for their shows that I even really knew about bodybuilding. Like that was not even on my radar when I was, you know, a young teenager. So it was a client of mine that I was working with, who suggested Hey, have you ever thought about competing, you know, you're kind of very sporty and athletic. So the only reason that I really jumped into the world of bodybuilding at least, and becoming a physique competitor was that the World Championships in 2015, were being held in Dubai. And that was one place that I'd always wanted to travel Australians, we just love travelling. So yeah, I, in order to get to the World Championships, we had to win our state shows, and then qualify nationals placed in top three, and then you could go and compete for your country. So that was my first kind of, I guess, step into the world of physique competitions. And then I guess the rest is really history. Everything that I've done since then, certainly has a connection with body composition, but my, my take and my stance on physique, sports has really changed. And part of that is just because of my own, I guess, healing journey through you know, my eating disorder over those years. And having now come out the other side some 15 years later, you know, I really just I have an appreciation for that sport, and I still compete, which is kind of a funny dichotomy. But and I can talk about why but I really feel like all the products and services now that I am involved in and that we provide are tailored to females, probably who have experienced similar things to myself that are trying to improve their not only their health, but you know, their body composition. So yeah, I am involved in a lot of different things and certainly take the stance of an evidence based approach. So I'd say we are a science based company.

to optimise my sleep each night there are two things that I did on my non negotiables. The first is to get outside and get early access to morning light. And the second one is to block blue light in the evening with blue light blocking glasses. The best lenses I found are those by Bong charge, they don't let any of that sneaky light come in underneath the lens, which I used to find really annoying when I was reading my Kindle and things like that. These lenses block all the blue light, and they're super high quality and the great thing is they look really stylish to on charges. Glasses are made in optics laboratories in Australia. They're not mass produced in factories in Asia. And they have science backed technology that's been tested to ensure they work and as I say they have dramatically improved my sleep. I'm sleeping longer, deeper and I'm feeling refreshed the next morning and the cool thing about their glasses is they come in non prescription prescription and reading options. They also have glasses for every need including computer glasses to help with digital eyestrain, light sensitivity glasses for helping with low mood and migraines and the blue light blocking glasses that I'm using for improving sleep. I also have other amazing products such as Blue, low blue light bulbs, red light therapy devices, EMF 5g protection. I have that on my mobile phone. I have that on my kids mobile phones and I also wear their bond charges EMF blocking bracelet and their 100% blackout sleep masks all backed by science and bond charge ship worldwide in rapid time with easy returns and exchanges. And you can save a cool 20% of any of their products in their range. Simply go to bond charge.com forward slash Angela and use coupon code Angela to say Have it 20% That's BONCHARG e.com/angela and use coupon code, Angela, to save yourself 20% I've done a few of your workouts myself. Yeah, I've done like, there was an amazing one that you put out all on shoulders. And I was like, oh my god, I hadn't thought about doing so many different exercises. Shoulder was like, Yeah, your YouTube channels amazing. And I guess with that background, you were talking there about eating disorders and your background in dietetics. Presumably, you approach this or from a very health conscious perspective, right? Because there's a healthy way to compete and an unhealthy way. I'd like to kind of dive into some of that with you. I guess, first of all, when we look at it from a nutrition perspective, when someone's looking to make body composition changes, what are the key things that you think they should focus on?

Um, I think if anyone's just trying to improve their physique, and I mean, I immediately think of, you know, reducing body fat, but also simultaneously increasing lean body mass, I guess the best way that we can, you know, achieve that is through incorporating a high protein diet, and then moderating our caloric intake. And there are a plethora of ways that we can do that. Which is why we tend to see so many different types of dietary approaches, you know, having a lot of success. And I think it's really important to recognise that everybody has like a unique preference for certain foods. And I think it's important to, you know, perhaps try the plethora of dietary approaches out there, until you can find one that actually resonates with you, because we look at all of the research on what are the what are the most predominant characteristics that are linked to your long term weight loss maintenance, it tends to be compliance or dietary adherence. So you've got to find something that you really like that you can stick to long term. And then I guess the other thing that's really important, then it's just finding some kind of activity, exercise doesn't really matter what it is, but something that gets you moving, and hopefully, it's something that you can enjoy in the process. So they're really the three key things I think, that are lead to long term, healthy bodies. And you know, at the same time, the value add is maybe a good looking physique to

you, which isn't a welcome side effect. But you're so right. I mean, if you don't enjoy exercise, where you don't enjoy the way you're eating, you're never gonna stick with it and that adherence is so so so key, isn't it? When you're looking at kind of macronutrients, obviously, like the protein consideration there, I'm always telling my clients increase the protein, increase the protein, I think people struggle with this. Do you generally advocate that it's around a gramme per pound of body weight in terms of getting the sweet spot for that body composition?

Yeah, look, I think, if we were to look at all of the science on that specific topic, and we're looking at protein requirements for the purposes of hypertrophy, so we're building muscle, it tends to be within a certain range. So I think one gramme per pound of lean body mass up to about 1.3 grammes, per pound of lean body mass or for anyone that's listening from the rest of the world, and that they use the metric of grammes per kilogramme, I like to use the range of say 1.8 grammes of protein per kilogramme of lean body mass up to about 2.9 grammes of protein per kilogramme of lean body mass. So, the beauty is it's a range. So there isn't one particular point along that range that is going to be, you know, optimal. Now, maybe if you err on the side, or the higher end of that range, and we'd look at maybe like a 15 year training lifespan, perhaps if you sat at the upper end of that range, you may have a small but significant increase in your lean body mass over that timeframe than sitting at the lower end. But I think, ultimately, we've got to be able to find a balanced or an amount of protein that works with your dietary preferences, because the science can point you know, all things towards high protein, but if you really aren't an advocate of protein, and, you know, it means that you're sacrificing you know, carbohydrates and dietary fats that are also important to you as an individual for long term sustainability of that diet, then it's more likely that you're going to end up over consuming your calories. And then ultimately, you know, if that's done consistently over many years, then you're not going to achieve at least the level of leanness that you want, because totally total calorie intake paired with protein are like the two predominant factors that we will be looking for For the optimal physique.

And have you found any within that, once you've got those two things kind of nailed, have you found any differences with the proportion of fats and carbs, like for me, I just find nuts and nut butters, so addictive, and is the easiest way for me to be like to drop off in terms of that lean scale a little bit and when I dial that back, but I think that's very individualised. Some people seem to be more sensitive than others. I'm curious as to what you found.

Yeah. So again, if we were to cite the latest research in fat loss, or we look at all of the weight loss studies, and this would be in obese populations, and healthy, normal body weight individuals, there doesn't seem to be any advantages between a diet that is high in carbohydrate, and low in fat, provided that calories and protein held constant, versus a diet that is high in carbs, sorry, high in fat and low in carbohydrate, it really doesn't seem to make much of an impact on someone's ability to lose body fat. Overall, what is going to govern that rate of weight loss really is the degree of the calorie deficit, and then the consistency with, you know, a high protein diet. So that's actually really good news. Because it means that there's so much more, you know, dietary options for people, you know, if they're looking to, you know, shed a little bit of excess body fat, and improve their overall health and wellness.

Yeah, and I suppose the thing with fats, right is they're more calorific, and they're very easy to eat.

Yeah, I just want to add in like a terrific as well, I'm a friend as well, I think I have like seven different containers in my pantry at the moment for different flavours and things. But, but that's the thing, I think the beauty of it is that you don't have to subscribe to one or the other. I used to be very rigid in my approach to my nutrition prior to kind of, you know, reading more about, you know, the the research on, you know, the ratio of carbohydrates and fats in relation to fat loss. And I would really try so hard to hit one specific number. And I will have the same target of carbohydrates and fats, like every single day. And I think the beauty of, you know, the scientific field is that there are so many more studies being done. And we now know that you can chop and change, it doesn't mean that you have to subscribe to one all the time. So for me, and I know, for a lot of my clients, I only only give them a calorie target and a protein target. And they really have the liberty to change out, you know, their remaining calories based on how they're feeling what what are you in the mood for, from a, you know, a satiation standpoint. And there's some times where it's really important that we focus on satiety from a gut fullness perspective. But then there are other times when it's also important to focus on gut satiety, and how you know, we perceive that food, you know, is it pleasurable? Do we get joy from that food, so it's important to strike a nice balance between those, and you have the flexibility to do that. So, yeah, I definitely oscillate between carbs and fats, you know, most days, but the downside to something like that is that for people that are perhaps new to tracking macros, for instance, it is a little bit more work. And, you know, there is some math, I mean, if you've got a certain amount of calories remaining in a day from carbs, and fats, and ultimately, you can put them all towards carbs, if you wanted to, and have, you know, basically a carb only type we on a good example might be like, I don't know, some cinnamon toast crunch cereal, and then, you know, some kind of milk product on top right? So you'd be getting some protein, and you'd be getting some carbohydrate there. And you could effectively do that. But it means you have to kind of work out well, you know, if I had 10 grammes of fat left, what amount of calories? Can I then shift over to carbs? And you have to do that math. We developed an app actually, that does all that for you, which is really convenient. But I think the beauty is that you can ultimately have that flexibility. I will say there's one downside to people that choose to kind of have more, you know, of a flux in their dietary intake. And that is just due to how carbohydrate and how dietary fibre impacts our body weight on the scale. Unfortunately, when we will, I guess it depends on how you look at this. When we consume carbohydrate and we're no longer there's no longer an immediate need for that carbohydrate. It's obviously stored in our muscle tissue and our liver as glycogen. So glycogen is stored with water. And for every one gramme of glycogen that is stored we also store it with some more in the realm of say, 2.5 to 2.7 mil of water, that's just how glycogen is stored inside the tissues. So we tend to see people's weight jump up, even if calories are equated and they're having the same amount of protein, just because they're trading out more of those fats and putting them towards carbs. Even though the energy density is very similar, you still see your weight move on the scale, and that terrifies a lot of people, particularly when they're not educated about, you know, how carbohydrates are stored. And so, you know, I think it can make it more difficult for people that perhaps they're in a fat loss phase, and they're going through the motions of their urine, their diet, and then one day they decide to have more carbohydrates, and they take out lots of their fats. And maybe that also means that they eat more dietary fibre. If we think about where dietary fibre comes from, it's predominantly our, you know, carbohydrate based foods. So we would not only then see a big shift in stored muscle glycogen and water, but now we've also got more food coming in, that is going to sit in the digestive tract that has a physical weight associated with it, and people's weight can jump up, you know, by a meaningful number of percent. So I think once people have that understanding that Oh, my weight could actually go up by one or 2%. From one day to the next, just because of my macronutrient distribution, it gives them a bit more sense of comfort and ease. Because now you know, you're empowered or informed, you've got that knowledge. So it kind of understand helps people with that fear of the scale, and then they can start to justify it a little bit more. And I think, you know, I've certainly seen that in the people that I'm working with.

If you're an hour in the morning, like me, but you need some high quality nutrition and protein post workout, maybe I'll grab and go on the school run much like my days, then here is a little smoothie, you can whiz up super quickly. That gives you high quality nutrition, I generally mix a couple of scoops of protein powder with one scoop of creatine for the neurological and muscle boosting benefits. And then I add in tonnes of ice with my ag one and kind of blend and go. Ag one is made with 75 super high quality vitamins, minerals, and Whole Foods source ingredients. And so I know that I'm getting the high quality nutrition in alongside the protein in the morning to boost my mood, my immune system and give me sustained energy throughout the day. And if you want to take ownership of your health, today is a good time to start. Because athletic greens is giving away a free one year supply of vitamin D and five free travel packs with your first purchase. All you need to do is go to athletic greens.com forward slash Angela Foster. That's athletic greens.com forward slash Angela Foster and check it out. I definitely want to come on to that in a moment actually in terms of the mindset and then feeling comfortable in terms of tracking and also your own experience with kind of body sort of issues and things and just surrounding mental health. But before we do that, when you're describing that, actually they would in that situation weigh a bit heavier on the scales? Would they then notice like if they're looking for that really lean and defined look, by increasing carbohydrates and drawing and more of that water? How would that affect the aesthetics when they're looking in the mirror?

Absolutely. So you'll see a visual shift. Now, I guess one of the interesting things about this is that, you know, if we look at you know, our elite athletes, so your top physique athletes, part of the protocol are leading into getting on stage is a carb loading period. Now, you might be wondering, well, okay, she's just said, we're eating all these carbs, and it brings a lot of water, I wonder what that does to somebody's physique, well, in an adequate amount, it's actually going to make the muscle appear nice and full, and round. And that's exactly what you want to see on stage. The last thing you want to see is a really flat depleted muscle because it has no shape about it. But when we eat are in, I guess a surplus, or you know outside of what our normal our carbohydrate consumption is, instead of that our carbohydrate and water are moving into the intracellular space of our tissue, it ends up sitting in the extracellular space. So that is when we start to see some of those kind of blurred lines, you know, you might be used to seeing a lot more definition in your legs. And I will use the same example as if you've done a really hard workout and you've got that acute inflammatory response to training and your legs are all puffy and they're full and tight. That can kind of distort the look of a defined muscle. So I know for me if I go out and have sushi, and I've had a tonne of carbohydrate and then Let's add some salts and 30 into that, which also draws in a lot more water, I just looked like a watermelon. So like, within a matter of minutes, it's like I look, you can look very defined. And I can see like some feathering in my thigh. And then all of a sudden, if I try to flex my thigh, it's like, oh, wait, oh, my muscle go. And it's not that you've added body fat. But it can look like that. And I think that's a very stark difference for when people look in the mirror. So you know, I think once people have that understanding that all of I eat a lot of carbohydrates all at once, like, I go out for a big dinner, and it's super salty, like, you're probably going to look a little bit, you know, washed out probably the next day. So it is it's difficult, you know, to see that in the mirror. But again, I think that's why Knowledge is power. And it helps you, you know, give yourself a little bit more compassion, because you're not sitting there going, Oh, my gosh, I've put on all this body fat. Now I even know for me, if I do put on a bit of body fat, it's not the end of the world. I'm like, I'm a human, it's part of my body's processes. But I think as you're kind of in that recovery phase, and learning to accept your body, you know, as it is, wherever it is, on the on the scale, however much your body fat percentages, I think that's a nice way to kind of start to ease that negativity, it's associated with an increased, you know, scale away, or just seeing your body change in response to certain types of foods.

For sure, I'm so glad you clarified that. Thank you, when we're looking at mental health, because obviously, it is a big issue for many people. And particularly, if, you know, they historically, as teenagers, I think many of us, me included, kind of were restricting our food intake and things, it's really difficult to leave that part of you behind. How do you preach that with your clients in terms of them tracking what they're eating, and their macros and their overall calories? Without them becoming obsessed? I know, you said you have an app as well, that's helpful. How do you reach that? Yeah, so

I think honestly, the most important thing is like, just like learning how to learn and know about your client. And you have to be able to meet them where they are at and the that range, that spectrum is, you know, very spanning. So I think it depends on you know, that individual. But let's take an example of somebody that is, you know, extremely, you know, body focused, there is a lot of, I guess, negative associations with their physique, maybe there's a lot of value self worth, tied into their physical appearance. Those people are, it's really difficult

to

work with not not because it's it's, it's challenging as a coach, I think, to be able to kind of tap in and break into their, their mindset and understand the narrative. But once there is an established trust, and you know, open communication, and I honestly try to be really transparent, in my own, you know, journeys, myself and then examples of other clients, I think, once you can establish that trust, then you can start to kind of let or the client feels more comfortable to start sharing, you know, what's really going on in their mind. And one of the little tasks I think, that I start off with are for anybody that's brand new, is to just start to tap into their self awareness. And often that means really slowing down. I think everybody today is hustle, hustle, hustle, you know, we're always rushing and running around. And we tend to kind of switch over into like a default mode or autopilot. So that really takes us away from like our conscious thought. And now we're kind of, you know, doing all these things on a day to day basis, like, almost subconsciously, it just happens out of our habit. So step one is really getting them to move back into their conscious mind and start listening to what they're saying. So I will have them report to me, okay, what are three things that you've noticed that you tell yourself that are, you know, negative? And they might come back to check in and say, Well, you know, I was standing in front of the mirror, and I recall myself saying, you know, yuck, oh, my gosh, my body looks so gross. I'm so fat, all my clothes don't fit me very well. So we start to kind of identify the narrative and some of the language and what they're kind of telling themselves and what are their beliefs of themselves. And then we start to push back on some of those narratives. And another homework task would be okay, I want you to come up with, you know, for the three things that you've identified that are negative, I want you to think of three things that you can say that would, you know, push back on that comment that would try to, you know, negate that. So they'll come up with something that they can say, so that now we're kind of bringing in new thoughts. And ultimately, you know, if you've had an established behaviour for a really long time or a certain belief for a really long time, those thoughts are very automatic, you know, we don't have a lot of control over the thoughts that are coming into our mind. But what we can do is control the thoughts that we added to. So over time, I think the more we can kind of hear those other voices. And I'll call them like affirmations, or some kind of, I guess, mindset shift that they want, I'll have people put little stickers over their mirrors, or they'll have like something that's available to them all the time, or like sticky notes on their fridge, just that repetitiveness of this new thought, eventually, over time, they will start to believe it. And originally, when you first start is I think it kind of feels like a bit of imposter syndrome, and you do not believe what you're telling yourself. But if people stick with it, and they really are, like determined to feel differently about their body and about themselves and their value and their worth, if they continue to work at it eventually, over time, you know, the narrative does change, those beliefs do change, and then now they're this new person, and the predominant thought are the positive ones. So it's, it's quite a process. But as far as I know, that, you know, specifically about like macro tracking, I think that some people are really in a position to, you know, track at the same time, like they like that, that's the one sense of control that they still have. So I think, you know, removing that all of a sudden is not a good strategy, I think it's something that you have to do pretty gradually. So I might start out with reducing your tracking for one meal per day. So maybe they track for three meals, and then their fourth meal, they don't track. And then eventually, over time, we might progress them to not tracking any meals, and it's just one day of the week. So you know, that would be trying to shift somebody away from you know, the need to control their their food intake in their body, and allowing them to develop a better sense of trust within themselves, that they don't actually need this tool anymore. And then over that time, we're also working on establishing a new way of thinking, and then you know, within a good amount of time, probably like 12 months to 18 months. Now we've got this individual that feels extremely positive about their bodies. They don't feel like they need to be tracking all the time. But you know, it's a tool that they can, you know, pull out if they if and when they need it.

So on a long term basis, then it sounds like you're not a huge advocate of constant tracking, in terms of Do you find that people develop? Because whenever I tried to track and I've worked with a trainer, and they're like, Well, have you tracked your calories, like that's the rate that I can make all of the workout sessions, I can definitely dial in my routine, because I can see on the aesthetics, what difference it makes, I find it very difficult to consistently track my calories, basically, because I've just like, I can't really be asked me to like work it out and put it in.

Yeah, look at it is I will say I actually am a big advocate of people learning about what's in foods. And I think the best way to do that is to track. So you know, if somebody hasn't ever tracked calories, track macros use a tracking app, I'd say there is so much value in doing that for a given period of time, because I think ultimately, it helps them not only with, I guess any aesthetic goal that they might have. But it also is going to educate them about you know, the nutritional composition of foods, and then the energy density of certain foods. And you know, that is a very good tool to have, if we're thinking about how that might play out in the long term for our health, in reducing the risk of various diseases, you know, cancers, cardiovascular disease are all those types of things. You know, they're so prevalent in culture, and I think, if you have an understanding of what it is you're taking in, at least then there's some informed choice. Now, do I think that people should track indefinitely? I'd say, I don't know. It probably depends on the person. I think what we've got to look at is the degree in which it is negatively affecting, you know, their, their mental health and well being or their lifestyle in general because I know certain folks that you know, they've got a lifestyle where they don't have a whole lot of responsibilities that don't have kids anymore. They've grown up, they're out of the house, and they have a lot more free time. So for them tracking their macros is a very small inconvenience. Since for a lot of gain, you know, they're moving into their late 60s, they're feeling like they're living their best life, you know, they can moderate their calorie intake, they're getting a good amount of protein. And you know, they, they're feeling extremely strong and empowered and healthy. Now, if somebody is, you know, a single mom, and they have four children, and she's working two jobs, and she's trying to take care of her health, and tracking is just not working for her. And it's giving her a lot of stress, and anxiety, I'd say maybe that's not the best tool for somebody in that situation, or at least not for any lengthy period of time, I would still say to that woman learn about food, like, Okay, let's do it at a slower pace, you know, you would probably be a little bit more generous with the timeframe to learn that new skill, and set more realistic expectations for her. And I think a lot of women are very tough on themselves, too. So, you know, they're probably looking up to all of their, you know, social media influencers that are single don't have partners, their job is their fitness, and they feel like that. I'm like, Well,

when you're talking about the bomb, with the kids, I'm like, Yeah, that's me. Three kids, two dogs rushing around, maybe that's why I'm not tracking my macros. Yeah. And

I mean, I feel like I'm in that same boat. Like I, my, I guess, lifestyle has changed so dramatically. Since you know, I was in my early 20s, to where I am now. And I've been in the position where, you know, I was a stepmom, I was managing for companies, I was trying to be professional physique athlete. And I can tell you now there was so much sacrifice, and that it almost wasn't worth the cost, trying to do World Championships and do all those things. Because it required so much consistency, and tracking and just time. So again, do I think that people should be striving for, you know, the freedom not to track? I don't know whether I could say yes, because some people, it just works so well with their lifestyle, it's not an inconvenience, and they have a healthy relationship with that tracking. I think when it becomes a problem is if people don't have any other means of coping outside of that, I think if you were to take that away from somebody, and they're experiencing extreme anxiety, it's starting to impact relationships, friendships, maybe they're you know, skipping out on social outings, because they didn't, their phones flat, and they can track their food, you know, I think we've got to look at the extent to which it is impacting their life. And I would want to know that somebody has a healthy enough relationship with themselves, that they could be flexible if they needed to be. And I think I've worked with a lot of the people that are stuck in this place where they are terrified of letting go of tracking. So I'm not saying to them, I want you to stop tracking altogether. But I want you to develop the other skills to learn how to be okay without it. Let's find some moderation here. And you know, what, where is that fear coming from is this because if you let go of that, you feel like you know, you're nothing without your body or your physique. Like, you know, you really want to get to the why. So that we can start working on those things, because that's often a psychological challenge that we can work through. And we can improve if they have the desire to do that.

Yeah, for sure. It's kind of a self esteem issue. I guess as well, it's harder, isn't it as well for parents, right? Because I've got teenage children so conscious not to be tracking because I don't want to instil in them kind of, like what I did as a teenager, you know, to me more I'm trying to really micromanage. with the, with the calories overall. And I want to kind of dive into the training in just a moment. But as a sort of segue when we're looking at someone who wants fat loss versus somebody who's now trying to gain lean tissue, what have you found in terms of like, do we do we definitely need a surplus to be able to gain muscle mass? Can we do it at a kind of maintenance level with increased protein? And if we're trying to lose body fat? Why do we need to do that?

So I think if we take this from the stance of an individual's now wanting to work on adding muscle mass, whether or not they need to be in a surplus or not, actually, again, depends on the individual. And the reason for that is there are a few subsets or population groups that are able to build muscle very successfully without very much dietary intervention. And that is somebody that's brand new to resistance training. So I guess the new stimulus from resistance training for instance, is so strong that the body is able to grow muscle very successfully in comparison to somebody that is more steady state are resistance trained. And you know, they've been working at it for a really long time. So it is unfortunately, something that comes with diminishing returns. So the more muscular you become, the longer you've been training, you kind of get to a point where you're just kind of oscillating in this like maintenance mode. And you may be able to see small increases at the elite end for short periods of time with very intentional very focused training. But it's not really something that can be maintained. So basically, I would suggest that what we would see is that the weight and the muscularity kind of drops back down and kind of just hovers for a while. So there's those two distinct groups. The other group of individuals that may not necessarily need to jump into a calorie surplus, immediately would be somebody that has a higher body fat percentage. And the reason for that is they already have by way of excess adipose tissue, a wonderful reserve of energy. So they've kind of got the calorie cushioning available to them. So that when they do jump into resistance training, and they're providing, you know, an adequate training stimulus, they're training at a good intensity, they have this reserve of energy that can then be repositioned towards the purposes of building muscle. So I might say to somebody that comes to me, and maybe they're sitting at, I don't know, let's say 30% body fat, I might just look at their current maintenance calories, and provided that their current caloric intake is meeting all of their essential needs, and that they're within what we would consider like a normal range of calories. Based on their lean body mass, I might just say, we're going to stay here, actually, and we're just going to put you into a really great resistance training programme. And let's just let time do its thing. So you don't always need to be in a surplus, but for somebody that is lower body fat percentage, and I will specifically reference a lot of the competitors. So maybe they've just come through a really, you know, extreme diet, they've been on stage, they've gotten down to a very low body fat percentage, somebody at that extreme, doesn't have the fat reserves or the fat storage available to help with that building and that regeneration of new tissue. So therefore, we do need a calorie surplus coming in to be able to provide that energy towards the process of building tissue. So does that answer your question?

Yeah, it does, it does. And you know, as you were saying this, I was thinking about myself, because we can come on to like how you measure body composition and moment, but I did recently, because I'm doing a whole set of like longevity testing and labs and things. And I did a DEXA scan on myself. And then I also did an in body scan to see. And my muscle mass looked pretty good in certain areas, obviously, the DEXA is really good at showing you kind of exactly where and but there was a difference between the two, they're meant to be I think within like a 1% difference. And yet, when I did the DEXA, it was coming out around 19%. And then when I did the embody, I don't believe this is right, it was like 14 and a half percent. So my guess is somewhere in between. But what I've noticed is interesting what you were saying that is when I looked at the DEXA, actually an area to build up was the strength in my back. And that's the bit that I've really struggled with. And I've been training for a long time that you're saying it's harder to make those modifications. And what I'm finding is I can move up on, you know, my glute bridges and things like that and get heavier and heavier. But when I'm looking at my back, I can do a few kind of unassisted pull ups. But I can't seem to progress much more like if I'm doing a lat pulldown, I'm really struggling and I'm guessing part of that is actually coming down to the fuel when

it's very possible. I mean, you just said what 17% versus 14 on the different machines. That's not a whole lot of body fat, and energy available to and then I think we've got to look at in addition to, you know, your current body fat levels, what are your other activities? Are you also are you just focusing on resistance training? Are you also incorporating some kind of other cardiovascular exercise and activity, because that old has an energy requirement as well. So again, if there isn't a lot of consistency in someone's training programme, for instance, in some weeks, they're going out for you know, an hour walk with their girlfriends and another week, they're gonna go and do a hit class or book a boxing group class or something. And if there isn't, if there isn't consistency, that means that then there is inconsistent energy available, if you are still trying to get through those, those workouts. So I think the best approach honestly for somebody that's looking to add muscle is to make sure number one that you You are, I guess eating an adequate amount of calories. And the reference range that I like to use for my clients to kind of gauge you're in a good place based on a moderate to high amount of activity is and I'll use, I'm going to use kilogrammes, because that's how I work but anywhere from say 35 calories per gramme, sorry, per kilogramme of lean body mass, all the way up to say 45 calories per kilogramme of lean body mass. That's kind of what I'm striving for, for my clients maintenance. And then when they're in that place, then I'd say okay, well, if the goal is now to build muscle, we want to be in a small surplus above that, can we do that by your existing body fat stores, or do we need to push a little bit higher, so that we do have some more energy available for the purposes of building muscle, and then during that building phase, I would also say that, it's probably important to minimise the amount of like higher intensity interval training or HIIT, training, just high intensity training in general, because that has been shown to directly impede mTOR signalling pathways, which is important for that process of muscle building. Now, that works along the spectrum, most of the studies that we've looked at, for purposes of muscle building that are showing, you know, that concurrent training, so we've got a group of participants that are doing, you know, resistance training, you know, three to five times per week, and then they're doing some kind of cardiovascular work with it. Unfortunately, not a lot of the studies are incorporating the levels of cardio that at least I'm seeing in the types of patients and clients that I'm working with, the people that I see tend to do a whole lot more. So in these studies, it's usually like, you know, 30 minutes of moderate intensity cardio daily. And in those cases, there isn't actually a whole lot of interference effect. But again, if you were doing you know, for hours, which I've seen, it's, it's terrifying to think that there are coaches out there prescribing like, you know, two hours a day of cardio plus resistance training seven days a week, I've seen this, you know, in that circumstance, even though it's just moderate intensity, steady state cardio, because of the the total amount that's being performed. I just don't think that there. And again, I can't say for sure, because I haven't seen any studies that show that kind of, you know, extreme cardio intervention, but that's probably going to use my opinion, have some negative impact on their ability to recover from resistance training. And same if you're doing you know, an hour of hit cardio, you know, six days a week, which again, I've seen that people are getting prescribed 60 minutes of intervals on the Stairmaster daily, and they're resistance training, and they're in a calorie deficit, you know, those things are likely to really negatively impact someone's energy availability for the purposes of muscle recovery.

That's really important. I'm so glad you clarified that, because I remember speaking to Dr. Stacy Simmons about this, and I've done her programmes about low energy availability. And she she's very much a fan of exercise being purposeful and intentional. And I think that, as a mom, it's quite easy to trip into doing way more activity than you thought, you know, like, I'll get to the end of the day and look at my aura ring, particularly a weekend. And I'm 20 to 23,000 steps in and that on top of resistance rate is probably quite a lot of energy demands, isn't it? But you're busy with the kids and just generally doing stuff. And I guess, even though I know it, and it's weird, it's almost like sometimes it takes someone to point out to you actually, you're doing a lot on an intention. Right. It's not like they were scheduled sessions. Yeah. But you are kind of moving around a lot.

Yeah. And I think I mean, a good gauge for like, knowing whether you're doing too much in that particular scenario would be like, Are you noticing, like weight loss on the weekends? Because, you know, obviously, that's going to be a pretty big predicament, or a predictor of energy availability. Sorry, you know, if you're trying to optimise your recovery for the purposes of building muscle, and you know, you're noticing that, you know, specifically on three days of the week where you're a lot more active and it might just be incidental movement where you're running errands, you're dropping the kids off at their, you know, weekend sport, and then you're going for a walk with your girlfriend and you're during your training and whatever it might be like that, to me, I would probably say like, monitor your weight. And then that would be one way that you could determine whether those days are, you know, optimal or not.

Yeah, that's really interesting. So then looking at the training, when people are looking at optimising their training programme and shedule I guess the first thing I think that would be really helpful to explain to listeners is the difference between strength training, more power based training and hypertrophy training and what results they can expect from doing this.

Yeah, so I think, if we're looking specifically for outcomes of hypertrophy, so if you're doing your training, if you're being intentional about going into the gym, because you want to build muscle, the good news about that is that we are pretty, I think it's generally agreed now across the scientific community that you can do a range of different rep ranges and still achieve really good results. So you can incorporate some strength based rep ranges, so that is looking at you know, one to six, typically, with heavier loads, working close to failure, as well as working out that hypertrophy rep range of probably anywhere from say, you know, your six to 15, moderate training loads, and then all the way up to high rep ranges, you know, 15, and above, at light loads, all of those different circumstances and styles of training have been shown to still elicit a great hypertrophy response. So I think the beauty of that is that whether you're somebody and I know, I've got friends, and it's usually males, they tend to be a little bit more ego driven, so they like to train rep range. Women. On the other hand, you know, maybe we're a little bit more timid, though, I've got plenty of friends that are definitely out to go and lift heavy today. But for the most part, I think women might prefer to work in that moderate rep range, moderate loads, and then maybe even in the higher rep ranges with light loads. So again, I think that's more just, you know, from a historical standpoint, where, you know, lifting and resistance training has come from, at least for women, you know, we probably started out with, you know, the aerobic art style, and you know, some of these kind of, you know, TV shows where it's a little bit more cardiovascular. And that's just where women have kind of felt most comfortable, because it's part of like a societal trend. But there's definitely been a lot more of a movement, I think, in recent years for women gravitating towards strength training, because it is also really beneficial. And to me, it was a really empowering process. I've done multiple powerlifting competitions now. And I love it, it's not something that I want to do all the time, that part of my training now and how I recommend to clients, if they like, you know, diversity, which, you know, I think a lot of people enjoy having an element of change in their programme, because it's exciting, it's new. The good thing is you can do all of the rep ranges, I think one of the key, you know, predictors, I guess of muscle hypertrophy outcomes, making sure that you are progressively overloading over time. So you want to see your training volumes trending up, you know, over your training age in years, but also making sure that as you're doing that, that you're also training at a high intensity. So working within, you know, a perceived rate of exertion, which is the RPE scale, you know, somewhere from 7.5, maybe up to 9.5. And occasionally, it's probably okay, if you hit it hit a failure set at 10, you know, you're going to failure. So, yeah, that's kind of the way that I programme and I think all of the rep ranges have their value. If we were to look at strength as the the number one priority outcome, then that's a little different. We do need to be working in that strength rep range in efforts to see strength improvements. So that's kind of like a skill, you know, similarly said, you know, if you're a professional soccer player or track sprinter, you want to be doing that sport that, you know, specific movement, that training style, on a regular basis to improve that skill. So strength training is similar in that regard. But that, that being said, it's also not an invaluable, I guess, exercise to also incorporate a little bit of hypertrophy based, you know, training as well. You know, from an exercise diversity standpoint,

too. And have you found I know, Stacy talks about like providing a really strong stimulus for women that are going through perimenopause or menopause, that because of that drop off and oestrogen. They should be focusing on that kind of lower repetition, higher resistance training, or have you found that actually, you're getting good results when you mixing up the rep ranges. I'm curious as to what you found with clients in that category.

Um, I don't know that I've actually read any research that specifically focused on women are going or that are in perimenopause, and then different types of strength training. So I don't know that there are but I can speak to that like anecdotally and just the clientele that I'm working with, and I would say that there are probably other states adages that I would personally probably go to first before I specifically jumped into, you've got to do heavy strength training, I might be more inclined to have my clients provide like a sub subjective score, report to me. So I often will look at their recoverability, their fatigue levels, their mood, their energy levels, I guess hunger and appetite, you know, PMS, you know, some of the women that are still you know, in that space experience negative symptoms, but they're not just they're just not getting an actual, you know, menstrual cycle anymore. They're not having that bleak. So, I tend to work with those clients a little bit more subjectively. And if we are to I'm going to dance across to the literature in, I guess, menstrual cycle and different types of strength training. The results are quite mixed. I've read a couple of randomised control trials that show that women tend to have a decrease or reduction in strength, you know, around the time of their cycle. But I've also read randomised control trials that have shown no difference in strength. So I think it is something that at least what we know, at the moment, really subjective, and it's based upon the individual. So I think some coaches probably don't even ask those types of questions. So I think a really valuable introduction into their coaching onboarding would be to kind of find out when their cycle is, in the past, have they experienced any negative symptoms? Generally, what's your energy, like? How's your mood, and then I might even programme you know, my D loads for a client around the period. So that there isn't that, you know, pressure to be in there performing like an RPE nine, which even for me, like, I've got to get myself psyched up, you know, to do that on a good day. So if you're not feeling well, and then you've also got the physiological symptoms of pain and bloating and cramping. It's like, no, so I don't do any hip training personally, you know, in the week leading up or during ovulation, because it's just too painful. So, you know, I've got specific times for me of the month where I'm like, Okay, I know, I can go hard. And I, you know, that's something I never used to do was track my cycle. So you know, that has been really advantageous about how I programme. But for some women, it's not as much of a big deal. You know, some people don't get those extreme symptoms. So relating this back to your question around women that are going through menopause. It is so individual and I'm actually a big advocate of having them working with their healthcare team, specifically, their endocrinologist probably they're obg and looking at ways where they can get their oestrogen levels and their testosterone levels back to the normal reference range. Hormone Replacement Therapy, there's a lot of taboo and stigma. And I think, unfortunately, it's been created through lack of knowledge, lack of education, I think that information in the wrong hands has probably led to this phenomenon of hormone replacement therapy being like steroids, and it is not it's not the same thing. So you know, I would say probably 50% of the women that I'm working with, and my team that are over the age of 40, and they're not getting the cycle anymore. They're we're encouraging them to work with their doctors find out what their blood biomarkers are saying, How can we improve these we're already doing everything we can dietary, you know, and lifestyle stuff from a standpoint, what else can we do to support you so that you feel your best, and most of them are starting to go into that process of getting their testosterone levels back to the normal reference range. And again, it's a therapeutic dose, we're not putting people into a place where they're achieving, like a super physiological, you know, testosterone levels, it's like, no, no, they're just going back into how everybody else, you know, is. So you know, that makes us a substantial difference to how they feel their long term performance, and ultimately, they're feeling better. Guess what, they get better results, because they're training hard, you know, they're able to be consistent, they're not fatigued all the time. You know, so I think there's a lot of things that we can do outside of like specific training intervention that can help with with that.

Yeah, amazing. Amazing. I always encouraged women to go and get tested. Last question, then before you go, you've been so generous with your time zone to training. I think I've even seen a photo of you. I think I listened to you with patriots here. He's obviously a massive, massive fan of Zone Two for longevity. What are your thoughts then just lastly, around cardio and how much we should be doing?

I think the answer to that is probably very vague and very broad. And I don't think that we know that there is a specific answer. I'm a huge advocate of incorporating some cardio, I think, you know, looking at all of the data about You know, somebody's cardiovascular health and their vigour to max, those types of things, it is very consistently showing that it can have so many benefits across, you know, so many different, I guess, health conditions. So, I have all of my clients, you know, trying to hit step targets, you know, up to the age of like, 70, I've got women that are, you know, and they really enjoy it. And I think, you know, it's, there's so many benefits of exercise period, not just the physiological ones, but you know, from a psychological standpoint, too. So, I'm a big advocate of cardio, I do think that we need to, you know, everything in moderation. You know, some of my older clients now, you know, there is a focus on strength and being building muscle. But we, you know, we're not going at it, like the prospective bodybuilder trying to be the most muscular, we're actually freeing up some of their time to also do some kind of cardiovascular work, some some movement, in some mobility, they're trying to stay functional. So, yeah, there's elements of cardio in some of my older clients programmes, and I think it's a massive value add. Sorry, I'm in love with Peter Hotez thoughts on zone two training, but again, I think it depends on somebody's goals, because, you know, if someone came to me and they said, You know what, I want to be a world champion jujitsu player. And, but I also really think that I'd be pretty good at bodybuilding. Like, you know, there's, there's only so many hours in the day, and I think sometimes we just have to set realistic expectations for our clients, and help them you know, develop a solid plan that does a little bit of all elements of, you know, health and fitness. So, yeah, I think Zone Two is a great thing. I think some occasional hit training is also a great thing. The same way that I also think a little bit of resistance training is a great thing. So yeah,

that mixing it up. Amazing. Where can people find more about you about your app, your coaching programmes? Yep.

So everything that I have is listed on my Instagram page. So my Instagram is just Holly T. Baxter. You'll be able to get access to the carbon diet coach, which is my nutrition coaching app, you'll be able to get access to my team of coaches. So we have our chiropractor, physical therapists, exercise scientists, dieticians, all the good stuff, I still coach and August, then all of our books, educational material, products and services are on my website. So you can find all that in the link in my Instagram.

Amazing. Thank you so much for coming on Holly. It's been such a joy speaking to you. And you've just got like such a wealth of knowledge and also real life experience, which is amazing. Those two things combined. So thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you. Appreciate your time. Thank you for listening to today's show and for your interest in health optimization for high performance. If you're new to my podcast, you may be interested to know that you can get a free health score and report complete with personalised recommendations on how to optimise your sleep, nutrition, fitness and resilience in the top link in the show notes below. I hope you enjoyed this episode. Links to everything we talked about are also in the show notes and if you enjoyed today's show, please subscribe for more