Welcome to a bonus episode of Cubicle to CEO. The podcast where we ask successful founders the business questions you can't google. I'm here on campus at CU Denver's Jake Jabs Center for Entrepreneurship. To answer students submitted questions for a live podcast recording, moderated by the center's Assistant Director of Operations. And my best friend, Claire Seville. Whether you're a student with aspirations to launch your own business, or years into running your own venture, you'll find timeless actionable insights uncovered by the impressive depth and diversity of questions these CU Denver students asked class is officially in session.
So to kick things off, just to reiterate, all of you submitted some incredible questions, there are 280 in total. So there's a lot to sort through, but it was a lot of fun as well. And from that, we narrowed it down, we're going to focus on 12 questions for Ellen. And then once we kind of get through those, we will open up to the group and we will do an open live Q&A. So with that, we will just jump right in. You guys won't be surprised by this first question. How big of a role has networking played in your growth and success?
Claire was telling me how she can't get through a single class without saying the word networking at least once. So let's tell we're at one for for today's session. Oh two for me saying it. Networking has definitely played I would say probably one of the biggest roles in my success, I really believe that people are your greatest assets in business. And I feel that almost every opportunity when I'm looking back, I don't know if you've heard of that Steve Jobs, quote, you can't connect the dots looking forward, you can only connect them looking backwards. I think in the moment when I was meeting someone, I may not have immediately understood how that connection would play out down the line.
But when I look at every significant thing that has happened in my business, I can undoubtedly trace it back to a specific person or connection that made the opportunity possible. So I think one of the biggest things that I would always encourage you all, especially as you're going through school, but even after graduation is oftentimes when people go to events, I think where their attention is drawn is to the person on stage, right? You're like there to see someone's speaker, you're there for whatever reason, I would really encourage you anytime you attend an event, whether it's a small one like this, or a huge conference of 1000s of people always take more time to get to know the people in the room with you, the people who are sitting to the right and left of you those are the people who are actually going to play way bigger dividends in your life, I guarantee it than whoever's on stage.
And that being said, obviously, you have a massive social presence. So the follow up question that would be how do you balance your online networking presence with offline networking?
I think both are equally important. And I say that as someone who the word creator, and like the creator economy, the creator business is definitely a newer term. I think, you know, in the early 2000s, and 2010s. It was like the influencer industry. And now you know, people resonate more with the word creator. So technically, because I own a media business, I am a full time creator, right? Like, my income comes from my podcast from my newsletter, from social media and brand partnerships, as well as digital products and courses that I've created on my own to teach other entrepreneurs how to grow their business.
But I would say that even though my business is 100%, online, we have students and customers all over the globe, we have listeners in over 220 countries for our podcasts, I still think there's so much value in local networking, local in person events. And the way that I stay connected through that is not only attending, you know, in person events like this everywhere. So I travel a lot, but also being part of my local Chamber of Commerce. I serve on a nonprofit board in my community. And I think that even if the people you're networking with may not necessarily be your direct customer, again, I think you can't really assume what sort of relationship you might have or where that might lead you in the future. So I really encourage both in person and online networking.
Well, thank you take that to heart. A closely related you mentioned that mentorship is important for entrepreneurs and some of that can stem from networking and developing those relationships. So what are some unconventional or creative ways aspiring founders can access valuable mentorship?
There's many ways I think the biggest thing is realizing that the larger presence a potential mentor that you're eyeing wanting to have time with is the more precious their time usually is right? It's more limited. And so I think directly approaching someone and being like, Hey, will you be my mentor is not always the best route to go. I think putting yourself in the rooms where they're already going to be present is probably one of the best ways for you to become front of mind. for them.
So what I mean by that is if there's someone that you really want to get FaceTime with, look up, what events they're traveling to, where are they speaking? Do they have a book coming out? Could you go to a book signing, think of creative ways where they're already going to show up anyways. And if you can make yourself available, and put yourself in the same rooms as them, it's going to increase your chances and that likelihood that they'll, you know, be able to give you that time of day in that moment.
I think also, gratitude is a really underplayed strategy for getting in front of people. I think because of how pervasive online content is, and and, you know, DMS and comments, you just think that someone with a really big audience is constantly being inundated with, you know, gratitude messages. But the truth is, oftentimes, that piece is much more rare than you might think it really does stand out, when you take even 10 seconds out of your day, if something that someone created really resonated with you for you to send them a DM and say, Hey, I saw your post today. And I just wanted to say, I really got a lot out of it. Thank you for taking the time to create that here was my takeaway from that. And if you show up consistently in that way, you'd be surprised like, I remember certain people who constantly are showing up in my comments, or like replying to my stories, or whatever it is, I remember them.
And sometimes I've referred them to people, sometimes, I've been able to open doors for them, you just never know who's watching. Even if they're not paying attention, someone else might be paying attention to the comments that you're leaving. So don't discount how much gratitude can really lead to opening doors. And also don't discount, readily available resources. Like if there's a mentor, you really want to, you know, have one on one time with, but it's not a possibility, start with something they've already created. That's a product of their brain, their books that they've written, their podcasts that they've created, you can learn a lot from a mentor, even if you don't have proximity to them.
That's a really interesting perspective to take advantage of what's already available. So speaking of that, obviously, one of the things that we highlight in our program here is experiential opportunities outside of the classroom. And so my question for you is, do you think entrepreneurship can be learned more effectively through classes and lecture format? Or by engaging in real world experiences? Or perhaps a combination of the two? What's your take on that?
I think there's certainly room for both. One of my favorite quotes is, I think it was Mike Tyson, who says, it's everyone has a plan until you get punched in the face. So the reason I bring that quote up is because I think that academia certainly has a great role in laying the foundation of teaching you how to critically think how to create relationships, how to work and collaborate with people. But at its core, right, you are learning theory, you're learning, something that has been distilled into some form of curriculum or textbook and there's nothing that quite replaces real life experience.
So like you may come out of a classroom thinking, you know, everything there is to know about writing a business plan or launching something or scaling a company managing a team. But in reality, when you're placed in the arena, when you're actually in the middle of the game, you have to call those gametime shots, that nobody prepares you for things that it's the you don't know what you don't know, right. And so I think having a combination of both is really important.
But what I will say is a huge advantage of all of you being here at the university and getting opportunities to learn like this is and I wish I had leaned into this even more as a student is the fact that the university or the college experience higher education as a whole, I think is really a cool opportunity for you to treat this as your playground. It's a place for you to try new things, and to test concepts with very little risk or real world consequences. And I don't think enough students actually take advantage of that, especially when it comes to business and entrepreneurship.
I'll give you a very specific example of this in my own time as a student so I went to Oregon State and Retail Merchandising or fashion merchandising as a big major there, I was not a retail or fashion merchandising major. I was an Exercise Sports Science major. And one of my internships in college was working with a an online fitness startup, they sold coaching services, health coaching, as well as they had an apparel line. And I remember when I was working as a marketing intern, I was like, oh, the headbands that they would create. It was like a very unique headband that you could wear like four different ways. And I was thinking to myself, these colors that you know, are being made, we could make these in our colleges colors, and we could sell them at the university bookstore.
And so I actually went like cold walked into the bookstore, and I was like, Hey, who is the who is the buyer here like on the floor? Like Who can I talk to that picks what products go out here on the floor? And I ended up being able to set up a meeting with the, I guess it was like the manager who's in charge of buying the merchandise. And I was able to get in front of him and pitch on this product and say, Hey, I think you should you know, carry this collection in your store. Could we start by doing a test run of this, see how they sell and I, again had no experience in this. And I think in the real world, if I had done this and walked into a random store, with really no track record of sales for this particular product and no experience, and not knowing my numbers, not knowing, you know, all of the language specific to this type of work, it would have been much harder for me to get their attention.
But because I was already a student there, it kind of laid this foundation where they gave me an opportunity to at least share my idea now whether or not they accepted it, you know, I wouldn't have any control over that. But they actually did. And they ended up carrying our line in their bookstore. And that's, again, an opportunity that's, I think, unique to having a built in network of resources like you do when you're a student at a university.
You'll notice probably a common theme is that Ellen has an absolutely insane amount of confidence, and just walking up to people, and it never hurts to ask. That's one of the main lessons here. And so I'd like to go a little rogue and ask a question about whether or not you think that entrepreneurial mindset, and having that confidence is something that you think comes naturally? Or is that something that you can learn? Essentially, what are your thoughts on whether or not that that comes with practice, or if it's something that you're born with?
I think it's definitely both. The biggest misconception I think people have about lack of confidence, or imposter syndrome is that it's something you're supposed to overcome. The truth is, I think of entrepreneurship like a game. At every level, there's a new boss to beat, right? If any of you are gamers, you know, this, like you beat the level you get to the next level, it's harder, you never really, truly conquer your imposter syndrome. And I think to do so or to try to do so would be a fruitless pursuit.
Instead, I kind of think about it, like you're driving a car, you're in control, you can push the gas pedal and go faster, you can let that go. Or let off the gas pedal, you can take a rest stop. Fear is always with you in some capacity, but you just have to remember, they're like, they're not driving the car you are, you can put your fear in the passenger seat, and you can go on a road trip with them, they're still going to be with you.
But the thing about confidence is like any other thing in life, it's a skill that is trained. So it's not like you are born with a finite amount of competence. And that's all you're ever gonna have in life. The more that you do something, the more that you just like any of you who may work out, the more that you work a muscle, the larger it grows, right? That resilience is built, and you can't think your way through being more confident, you have to actually just do the thing. And the more times you show up and do it, the less scary it becomes. I do also want to add one more note on impostor syndrome that I hope all of you take with you. And it's that I've kind of tried to flip the script on imposter syndrome. And the way I think about impostor syndrome these days is as an advantage rather than a detraction. And what I mean by that is, I think if you have impostor syndrome, it means that you actually care about the people that you help, right, whether it's through your service, your product, or just the work that you do in this world. People who don't care about other people don't have impostor syndrome, because their ego is number one, right? So if you have the privilege of even feeling impostor syndrome, it means on some level, you have an amazing heart and that you care about the quality of the work that you do.
And I think you should lean into that strength and realize that by hiding yourself and removing yourself from opportunities, because you think you're not ready yet, or you're not qualified, you're not actually doing the people that you could help service, all you're doing is making it easier for someone who cares less than you to take that spot and to take the opportunity. So just keep that in mind whenever impostor syndrome comes up, remind yourself, this is a good thing, that means I'm a good person, and that I care, and that I actually really do deserve this opportunity.
Thank you for including that perspective. So switching gears a little bit, this is a topic that's been coming up quite a bit with the various classes, various guest speakers. And I would love to hear your perspective on the fact that with all the various forms of funding that are available to entrepreneurs, or that entrepreneurs typically pursue, what was it that led you to opt to bootstrap your business?
Great question. It's a combination of naivete and ignorance. Because when I started my business, I was 23. And I, I was, I mean, pretty much in your seats, I was less than a year out of college. And I did not know that there were other options. I didn't know anything about business. I wasn't a business major. I did not grow up around a lot of business owners who you know, kind of modeled what that looks like. And so, in my naive mind, I didn't even realize that funding was an option. And so that's why I had to bootstrap.
You know, I got my first client for $300. I remember that very first $300 paycheck, I took out $49 And immediately reinvested it back into education because I knew I had to uplevel my skills in marketing to continue to go out and get bigger clients and bigger accounts. And that's what I've been doing this entire time when we take money in. We reinvest a portion of it out every single year. And that's what's allowed our business to grow organically over time and stay profitable the entire time.
I think the other big row of bootstrapping is obviously that you retain control of your company. Anytime you take investor money, you are relinquishing, on some level, your ability to call the shots in your company, and you really do become beholden to your investors. I think it's not raising money is not a bad thing. But it's not something that should be taken lightly. And I think too many people default to raising money, instead of trying to prove out a concept on their own first. And I say this from the perspective of also being a new angel investor. So I actually do invest in companies, startups, I have three companies that I've invested in and I one of them is actually a FinTech platform called Cherub that matches founders with funders. So it's literally a marketplace where founders of startups can sign up and get connected and plugged into a network of like 500 Plus and growing angel investors, influential leaders, people who are literally looking to invest their money in your company. And as much as I believe in that, and I'm super excited about educating around investing, I do also think it would be a disservice and not to remind you that bootstrapping is a very viable option. And it's an option that a majority of businesses have to take, whether it's out of necessity, or out of choice.
Wonderful. Okay. So I want to go back to kind of around the time that you were making that $300 paycheck? How would you recommend navigating the challenges communicating the validity of entrepreneurship as a career pathway for students coming from traditional immigrant or first generation college families?
Does that apply to any of you in this room? You can raise your hands, I'm with you. Okay. Yes. I love seeing that. Yeah, I mean, this is a complex question, because obviously, each family dynamic is very different. And I certainly would never want to speak on behalf of all immigrant children, or all immigrant families, or first gen college families. But I think it's hard to argue evidence, right, like proof.
So I know when I quit my corporate job, without a backup plan, my parents were not super stoked about the idea, right? They were like, Why are you leaving a stable corporate job with benefits and salary to not even to start a business just to just quit because you're not, you know, enjoying what you're doing? They didn't understand that choice, they were very apprehensive about that choice. I think, for me personally, and again, this is not speaking to everyone's situation. But for my parents, it was coming from a place of love, right? They sacrificed a lot to give us the opportunities that we have me and my sisters. And ultimately, they want stability for us, because they don't want us to have to work and sacrifice as much as they did. So their fear and their worries were coming from a place of love, not a place of control. Now, that may not be true for everyone.
But I think once they saw that I could not only sustain or replace my corporate income with my business, but I was actually exceeding and growing, you know, my income at levels that I never could have achieved in my corporate path. You know, when I was able to buy a home on my own at 25, or, you know, pay for our entire wedding in cash, or hire employees and pay for their salaries, and, you know, health benefits, and 401k's and all of these things, I think it's hard to argue with the evidence once you see that this is a viable path. So while I don't have like a blanket advice statement, where you could just come to your parents or your family and say, Hey, this is what I'm doing, and everyone's going to accept it, I think you shouldn't let the opinions of others stop you because ultimately, their opinions are not going to pay your bills, a and b, this is your one life, right? Like you can't live I think for other people's expectations, I think that will cripple us.
So my encouragement is to is to go for it because nothing very few things in life are permanent. And that's another thing that I think if you can really learn and instill in yourself, I can make this choice and it may not work out how I wanted it to work out. But it doesn't mean I have no other options. It doesn't mean I've locked myself into this position I can never get out. So keeping the impermanence of things in mind can really free up your ability to go after new things.
Some great suggestions as far as how to approach the situation. So speaking to that, obviously, some of this starts out with, you know, having a great idea or having a dream. And so, that being said, you know, fear can be paralyzing. And it you know, some people freeze and it's time to take action. So this kind of goes back to confidence, but maybe a little bit of a different spin. How did you find the courage take the first step in marketing yourself for that first internship while you were in the educational setting? And how did you use that confidence going forward to achieve goal after goal after goal?
I think the greatest lesson I've learned in my last six years of entrepreneurship is that planning does it create clear already, action creates clarity. The greatest common denominator amongst all successful entrepreneurs I personally know as well as people that I admire who have done amazing things in this world is they have a huge bias towards action. That's it, that's the only common denominator like, you could remove all natural raw talent skills, educational backgrounds, resources, there, one thing is that they have this relentless drive towards action.
And one of my favorite quotes is from this poet, and it, it goes something like traveler, there is no path, the path is made by walking. And I love this quote, because I think oftentimes, we like stand at the bottom of a mountain. And we try to map out like 10 different ways to get somewhere and we plan and we plan and we plan. But the truth is, you can only plan with the limited frame of mind that you know, in this current moment, right, again, you don't know what you don't know. And so you are very limited in your ability to even think outside the box if you don't have those lived experiences.
So I love this, quote, the path is made by walking, because it's truly you taking the action, trying something and figuring out what works and what doesn't, that actually creates the clarity for you. And I think an underrated thing, too, is when you try new things. Even if you discover that you're really bad at it, or you hate it or whatever, it wasn't the right choice for you. That process of elimination brings just as much clarity as finding something right off the bat that just sparks. And so don't underestimate that to like, if you can try something and you can cross it off your list and be like that, wasn't it, that is just as much of a win to me as trying something and being like, I hit it out of the park with this one. So yeah.
And I think that perfectly ties into what you said about this educational setting, being the perfect playground, because again, there's low risk involved. And so why not try things out? Why not take that action when, you know, again, low risk, so take the advantage or take advantage of the opportunity.
So that being said, actually this ties in perfectly with our next question, which is, in that case, with that perspective, how much time and other resources do you think that people should dedicate to things like market research or the planning, before fully committing to launching a startup?
The best form of market research is to get someone to pay you $1 for anything, I think, Mark, you can research and research and collect data all day. But people's feedback to me doesn't have a ton of merit, unless they're willing to put their money where their mouth is. So I am a huge believer in pre selling whenever possible. If you have a concept for a product for an event for a service, whatever it may be, there is nothing literally nothing to lose by texting five people and saying, Hey, I have this idea for like, I'm thinking about hosting this event in the summer for XYZ, right? Would you be open to grabbing one of the first tickets if I got you in at like a 50%? Discounts? You know, they say yes, okay, cool. Venmo me $25. It's that simple.
But like getting that first payment from someone validates your idea better than any amount of market research or business planning can do. And I think too many people again, get stuck in the ideation and planning phase. When, and again, it's going back to like everyone has a plan until you get punched in the face. You truly don't know if the market wants your idea unless they're willing to pay for it. So don't be afraid in small batches and small sample sizes to get someone to get you that first dollar to validate that idea and then build it, there's been so many times where I'm like, Hey, like there was a membership that we sold 100 founding spots for very low price, we were like, we'll price this at $100 Each, if you're the first 100 to get in the door, we had 100 people sign up in a week, right? That's $10,000 that we made, the membership wasn't even created, I was like, this is something that we're literally going to build for you as you get in, pay your $100 We'll get you your login, and then we'll build it as we go. You don't have to have this perfectly fleshed out product right off the bat to go to market.
Now of course there are some industries where that may not be true. Like if you're, you know, if you're creating a product that you know, has implications on people's like health or something like with long lasting impacts, of course, you need to make sure that you hit all of the regulations, but for most things in life, like my friend Adrienne Dorsen always says we're not creating error, right? Like as entrepreneurs, we tend to think about things so seriously. But these emergencies that we make up in our head 99.9% the time you are not responsible for someone living and breathing. So don't like paralyze yourself with this idea that AI has to be perfect because chances are if it's not perfect, and it won't be honestly if you're any good at being an entrepreneur, every single product sees a million iterations. Like if you can just put that first MVP that first minimum viable product out get someone to actually pay you for it. You always have opportunities to improve it down the line.
So the action piece is still key, for sure.
100% It is like the number one determinant. I can tell if someone's going to be successful in business based on how quick they take action. Yeah, for sure.
Very cool. And a little scary. But okay, so obviously, that's all really exciting and when wonderful when things work out, but let's talk about for just a moment, if there were ever times that you have wanted to quit, or times that people actually just told you to give up. And if so, if you've experienced those things, what ultimately led you to keep pushing forward? When it felt like the odds were against you?
I have been lucky in my life that I've never had anyone that I respected or was close in my life come to me and say, Hey, Ellen, I think you should quit your business or, you know, do something else. So I've been lucky not to experience that type of discouragement, I guess. But as far as like, why I would keep going, when times are hard. I think it ultimately comes down to like, what is what is most fulfilling for you, you know, every single type of career or job is going to have its challenges, nothing is perfect. There is no such thing as like having a perfect business, there's no such thing as having a perfect nine to five, there are, you know, pros and cons to every single situation.
So you kind of just have to think through like, what excites me to continue to grow. And for me, entrepreneurship has been the best playground for me to challenge myself and grow in that way. That isn't true for every single person. I think some people can have amazing careers within organizations, as an intrapreneur, as I call it, like you have an entrepreneurial mindset, but you like to work within a structured organization, rather than starting from the ground up on your own. But it all comes down to kind of understanding what what lights you up and what keeps you growing.
So what does that for you? Would you say?
Like, what lights me up with maximum growth? I think just being able to solve new problems and being able to create things that don't exist, like I love testing new concepts.
What was that puzzle question that you'd like to ask all of your? Always?
Yeah, okay. So hiring question, that I can't remember who I heard this from originally, but it's so good. It's like in a job interview asking someone would you rather pay if I sat you down each day? Would you rather be given a brand new puzzle at the beginning of each day and have to create or figure out how to solve the puzzle? Or would you rather be given the same puzzle every single day, and learn how to get better and faster at that puzzle?
Those are two completely different types of people who are going to thrive in different types of roles, but it really kind of shows you like entrepreneurs are definitely person number one, they're that person who's like, throw a new problem at me every day, and I'll solve it. People who maybe aren't as inclined to want to pursue a path like that are people like I really like to get really good at my one skill set and, you know, rise through the ranks or create a lot of impact through my job by getting really good at one thing, but good memory, I'm surprised you remember that?
It was for entrepreneurship class actually didn't? Yeah. Oh, yes, we're interviewing you. Okay, so let's see, let's talk about more risk taking, and risk as it relates to financial stability. So first part of the question, how do you approach the balance between taking calculated risks, and maintaining financial stability in your business endeavors?
I think that you kind of have to know for yourself, what are your own risk tolerances. So if you're going to talk to like a, you know, a financial professional, I would say that, in general, they're probably going to advise that you have at least three months of runway and your business or however much cash you burn each month through operations and marketing and labor, and you know, whatever other costs, you probably want to have at least three months of runway, if you are in like a very healthy or stable place with your business. But, you know, sometimes, if you want to scale faster, you're gonna have to take some bigger risks.
So, you know, there, there are definitely times where we have cut way back on our reserves in order to push faster. And there are other times when we're kind of more in a season of like maintenance or stability that we like to have those bigger reserves and like re rebuild our cash up. So there isn't like a perfect answer to this. But I think you have to know your own risk tolerance. And then you have to know, what are you working towards? So for me, like I, when I'm making investments, I like to because we're a bootstrap business, and we don't have the luxury of just going out and raising more money. Whenever we run out of cash, I have to really look at decisions through the lens of if I invest in something, could I realistically see myself getting my investment back and turning a profit on this within three, ideally 90 days, up to six months? And if the answer is yes, I'm probably willing to go for it. If it's a no, I may not be able to take action on that. Because again, as a bootstrap business, we just don't have that luxury.
Can you give us an example of a time that you had to make a difficult financial decision whether it was to take a massive risk or to scale back or to pivot entirely?
I think hiring my employee As was a big one, I mean, you know, there was a time in my business when I only had contractors and having the responsibility of employees is a big deal because you're not only obviously responsible for your own livelihood, but these people are taking a risk to come work at your startup and being able to make payroll every month and make sure that they're taken care of, I think is a huge risk. But I knew that without their support, I was going to be limited in my ability to scale.
Thank you. And then follow up question just kind of going back to taking calculated risk balancing that with financial stability. What about factoring in your personal financial stability on top of the businesses,
This is something that's actually been a lot more recent. For me, I hired a wealth manager at the beginning of I think last year. And prior to this, you know, my business, like every bit of profit, like I would take the minimal salary and every bit of profit, I would just feed back into my business. But she really opened my eyes to how important it is to also make sure that I am making strides towards my personal wealth building beyond just feeding my business. And so she really helped, you know, set up a custom plan for I don't really love the word retirement because I think it's, you know, when you think retirement, traditionally, you think like, oh, when you're 65, and your Social Security kicks in, like that's retirement, but what I love about being an entrepreneur is retirement is really kind of up to you, like you could be financially independent, by the time you're 35, you could want to work into your 60s, because you just love the work that you do so much. And you couldn't really see yourself doing anything else.
So there's so much flexibility there. But, you know, we created a plan with her like, okay, what would it look like, if I was the term we use is like work optional by 40, where the assets, the income my assets produce, exceeds what we spend so that I could work or it could not work. And it's really, you know, just an option at that point. So for us setting those clear goals made it easy for me to then reverse engineer and go okay, in order to meet those goals in my personal life. What does my business have to produce to take us there?
Well, thank you for being willing to share that. Staying innovative and competitive is critical, you know, in today's rapidly changing business environment. So within your team, especially how do you foster an environment and work culture that allows your staff members, in addition to yourself to embrace creativity, in order to continue the innovation process,
We have a big role on our team where I always want you to, I don't want you to bring forward a problem without a solution. So like, if you're going to say, Hey, this is a challenge, I want you to come to the table with a potential solution for how we could fix that or try something new. And I always encourage our teams to take risks. I am not that boss where like if you take a risk, and it doesn't turn out the way that we thought or we don't hit our KPIs or metrics that we had set, that's fine. As long as you can come back to me and tell me, we did not hit the marks that we set. And here's why I think that is, and here's what I would do differently if I gave it a second go.
And I think that especially as you leave college, and you're looking for careers, or you're looking to you know, start your own businesses, but especially if you're looking to work for someone else, I really encourage you to ask that question in your interviews, how do you encourage risk taking in your team members? What does that process of review look like? If I want to implement something that's a little bit outside of the box? Or maybe not, you know, already tried and true practice? Like how, how do you give feedback? How does that look? That's something I think that is so key. And I think if you can work in those environments that encourage you to be creative and encourage you to take risks, your learning curve is going to be so much higher or faster than your peers who have to stay within boxes that are like this is the way we do it, because it's the way that things have always been done.
So previously, we've talked a little bit about how you never had formal management education. So is this an approach that you had going in? Is it something that's been developing? How did you-
Learned
Learned, okay? And what was your process in that?
Talking to a lot of entrepreneurs who are more successful than me, reading a lot of books, listening to a lot of podcasts, courses, attending events, just learning from leaders who I admire, who have built great teams and who understand leadership because again, I think nothing beats real life practice and and getting to foster that team culture has been a really challenging thing, like management is not my top skill. I would say I'm much more of a creative person than I am an operations person.
But I definitely think that if you can create a team that one thing we always say is like Don't be a TaskRabbit don't be that person that gets like a work instruction or an SOP and just looks at the boxes and go check check check check, like Oh, I did this thing. I posted on Instagram. I did this thing because I was supposed to do it. Being a TaskRabbit will not evolve your career. You have to like really be able to look at something and go okay, I'm doing this thing, but why am I doing it and how is this actually moving forward? And if something's not working, am I am I able to think outside the box enough to adjust and pinpoint where We could, you know, tweak and iterate.
Okay, wonderful. All right. So in that same vein as far as your continued development personally, how do you actively keep growing your entrepreneurial mindset.
Just constantly seeking out learning opportunities and every way imaginable, reading a lot of books, listening to a lot of podcasts talking to a lot of people, talking to people in different industries talking to, I learned the most from people, when I get outside of my silo or my vacuum, I love talking to people who own mom and pop, brick and mortars in my town. I love talking to real estate agents. I love talking to franchise owners, I love talking to you know, people who are on the in the C-Suite of like a fortune 500 company as well as people who are startups, people who raise money, people who are bootstrapped, try to get outside of your circle as much as you can and just talk to a lot of different people, you can learn something from everyone.
And that doesn't just mean peer to peer talk to employees of companies ask them, What do you like about your job? What do you wish, you know, you could have done differently early on in your career, what have your favorite mentors offered you that I should be looking for in my own career development and growth? Being curious leading with curiosity is going to take you really far don't make assumptions and just like, go in with a really open mind and ask a lot of questions.
So networking.
So networking. yeah.
Okay, so that brings us to our final pre prepared question from your submission list. And this is going to be something very relevant to the whole group in here that is taking the builder business plan pitch launch class, we're about to get into pitching. So I'd love to ask you what techniques do you find most effective when pitching yourself for a role or a business opportunity?
Make it about them? Not yourself? I almost never go into a pitch without first asking the person I'm speaking to. In your ideal situation, if we work together in XYZ way, what is the outcome, the dream outcome that you would determine this as a success. And you would be surprised. I think that if you go in with that, again, that curious approach, it's going to eliminate a lot of the things that you think people want, or you think people will define as a successful outcome. And allow you to build a pitch that actually shows them how you can get them to their desired version of success. So always, always know your audience, ask them what they want, what they're looking for, and then figure out a way to structure your pitch that showcases how you can logically take them from A to B.
All right. And with that, I'm going to ask Brian and Beatrice to turn on your microphones. And we'll open it up for q&a from the audience. So feel free to just raise your hand and either Brian or Beatrice will come hand you the mic.
So when you started introducing your team to your business, when did you feel like you were ready to introduce a team, workers and you were ready to hire?
That's a great question, Kim. So my very first hire ever was so I started my business early 2018. I quit my job at the end of 2017. And I think I made my first contract hire in mid 2019. So when I first started my business, I started out as a solo Social Media Manager, just like a freelancer getting clients. And then as our client roster grew, we kind of scaled into more of like a boutique marketing agency. And I needed help because I was at my limit with client accounts. So I hired a girl to help me with actually, I think the first campaign I ever hired her was just one project. It wasn't even, you know, a part time job it was we were running an influencer marketing campaign for the university's bookstore, actually, and I needed her help like putting together the final recap deck and helping to manage some of the, the different creators we were working with.
And from that role, she just kept evolving. So then I added more accounts to her responsibilities. And we increased her hours. And then eventually, she became our first ever Podcast Producer. And then eventually, my first full time employee, I think, at the end of that summer, and then you know, her role has fluctuated with us throughout the years, she actually ended up starting her own business down the line and kind of went back to being a contractor. But she was my very first hire ever and it kind of kick started, um, you know, different employees have come and gone but we now have two full time staff members and then a team of maybe like three to five contractors, depending on you know, what different projects we're working on. So I would say start small and don't be afraid even if it's just with one project to kind of test how well you work with someone and then you can always expand that scope.
Oh, well, I am very interested in your process of making a podcast. So what what is your setup look like for that like Do you have anyone who does editing for you? Do you have like a microphone at home or do you do it in some kind of studio like what's Just just like a quick overview of what that what that looks like.
Sure. I mean, it's evolved over the years I started very simple. I had like a $99 Yeti mic forever. And I just kept it super simple. I started with that, and literally the webcam built into my computer, so you don't have to be fancy. But over time, obviously, we've upgraded our equipment, I kind of built out like my own little home studio now. So I, the mic i use i think is like a shore SMB seven, you know, we have like the cloud lifter for like better sound. And I bought like a DSLR camera that I connect to my computer so that it feeds in as the webcam, if you will.
And then as far as actually recording. So I script all the questions, and I obviously do the hosting and recording. But then once I've recorded it goes straight to my producer, and she is the one who actually edits all the audio rights, all the show notes. She's also the one that researches our guests and books then. And then our final step in that process is we have a video editor who does all of our YouTube content and our shorts. I'm sure you know way more about audio engineering than I do. But that's kind of the beauty I think of, you know, being in business, you don't have to be the expert at every single thing. As long as you it's what did they say? No enough to be dangerous? You don't have to be the expert. Yeah.
It's a very cute office. Very cute setup, you only have to take a peek at the YouTube if you'd like to see what the setup is.
So my question is, what was your drive when you first started your business? And has it changed now as you become more successful?
Yeah, I think when I first started my business, I didn't even know I wanted to start a business. So my true accidental entrepreneur, when I quit my job. Again, it was not because I had this idea to start a business. So I worked in health insurance, which as you can imagine, is not a very exciting industry. And so I felt very limited in my creativity in that role. So I left that job because I wanted to find a different marketing role at a company that allowed me to have more creativity.
But in that job process I actually connected with it was a colleague of mine at the job, I had quit, he and his wife on the side, in addition to his full time job, he was like a project manager at that health insurance company. He and his wife owned these two coffee stands locally. And they were like, Hey, we heard you know a thing or two about Instagram marketing, would you be willing to you know, come take some photos and content and help us get our Instagram accounts launched for our coffee stands.
So it sounded like a fun project. I wasn't doing anything, I needed money. And it was, you know, a 300. That was my $300 project. And from that, I think what that job or that project gave me the clarity on is, oh, I have a skill set that can be monetized outside of a traditional job, like I could go find a marketing job, but I could also just go find more clients. And so that's what I decided to do. And like my very next client was they kind of pioneered like the cauliflower pizza crust phenomenon of like the last however many years and you know, I started out my only thing I did for them was answer Facebook comments, because they would get like hundreds of inquiries from customers everyday. So they hired me for I think it was like $1,000 a month to like answer all of the Facebook comments.
But within two weeks, I had like submitted this proposal. And I was like, hey, in addition to answering and managing your comments, I have this idea for you know, your your social media marketing strategy, would you be willing to give me like a test window, maybe four weeks to try to implement the social strategy? And they said yes. And so that's how my account with them just grew. And then from there, it just kind of like lifted off. And so I definitely fell into accidentally and over the years, we've evolved a lot as a business. Like I said, we started out as an agency. And then, you know, we started this podcast that I moved more into an educator role and created online courses and products that we've had over 11,000 students go through our programs at this point. And then most recently, in 2022, I switched fully into being a media business, which just means that content is our primary product that we sell to brands.
Actually, on that note of pivoting because you really have had an iterative experience over the years, what has historically been your process with that in terms of, you know, the testing the taking action, deciding whether or not that is the right path to take, and how you ended up here.
I think it depends for each specific project. But typically, when we're trying something, you know, we have these metrics in mind of like this would be a success metric for us. And if we don't hit the mark, we kind of have to what I call find the leak, right was did this thing not work? Because this idea this concept wasn't good, was it because we didn't get enough traffic to the page where we were selling it? Is it that you know, we got a ton of traffic but then the conversion was off because our messaging wasn't on point. There can be so many factors that influence why something succeeds or fails.
And I think the more you can wear that detective hat that's what I always teach my employees to and I think that's why they're so encouraged to take risks is because I just tell Then like everything in business is just like it's just a game. Like if something doesn't go right, just put on your detective hat, look for the clues and find out what went wrong. And then just try again. And again, it kind of goes back to that impermanence thing. Like if you kind of let go and stop attaching outcomes to your personal self worth and making, it means something about yourself, if you fail, it allows you to have a lot more fun with trying new things and iterating on them.
When you initially quit your job, what was if you don't mind me asking what was the financial safety net, kind of like the urgency that you had to either find a new job or start your business?
I love this question. And if you listen to our podcast, I share so much on finances. So very transparent about this always happy to talk about anything with like finances or income. So when I quit my job, I'm trying to remember the exact numbers I was in, I was in a unique situation where I had graduated college debt free, that was a huge, huge thing that allowed me to, I think, take much bigger leaps than I would have had I had student debt hanging over my head. So I always want to, like state that very clearly, because that is a you know, a privilege to be able to be in that situation. So that was one thing. So I didn't have any debt.
But to clarify, you had student loans, it should I did have paid them off before graduating.
That is correct. Yes. My senior year I just like worked like a fiend had like three part time jobs and paid it all off before graduation, because I was like, I do not want to do that. So anyways, but yes, that that, you know, by the time I was working, I did not have student loans. And then I was living with my then boyfriend now husband, and we split the bills evenly. And actually, I think the only month that I did not pay rent was January, in that first month, but I was you know, out of a job. So I leaned on him a little bit in that month. And then I had a safety net of an emergency, a personal emergency fund I'd saved up I think of, I want to say was anywhere between three to six months of expenses. Now granted, I lived pretty frugally, like we weren't, you know, big spenders.
Again, we didn't have debts. And so you know, I had enough where I was like if I can't find anything to pay me for at least three months, I know I have my bills covered. But that very first month at the end of January is when I got that very first client. So it wasn't that long of a I guess a gap between when I quit and when I started making money again.
Thank you for that.
I kind of just want to build off of kind of proof of concept question. And then first of all, my name is Petros and I have a clothing brand called Goonsville clothing, claw, and I co-own it with Carlos. And we've been doing it for about two years. And we've really been building the proof of concept because the the name the idea is so brand new. And earlier in your presentation, what you said is you go to an event and there may be somebody on the stage talking and you may not get that chance to talk to that specific person. But the people around you and networking, I guess, how do you take the people around you and then also build off the proof of concept and take it to the next level of expansion and actually getting it maybe statewide or even country wide.
I would say how you win with collaboration and networking is to always lead with generous action. So anytime I'm walking into a new relationship with someone or I'm networking, try to approach it not from a place of having an agenda like Oh, I'm gonna go meet five people today to like be my affiliates for my clothing brand, right? But instead again, leading with that curiosity, leading with that generous action and asking people what are you working on right now that you're really excited about? Who is someone that I could connect you with? That you would really like to meet?
Or like, is there a support you're looking for in your business? asking those types of questions is really revealing when people start to share those things because if you this is like one of the most underrated forms of value you can provide especially when you're starting out and you may not have like a lot in like monetary or other ways of giving back to someone is if you can find a mutual person to connect that person with whether it's someone you already know or someone else you met at the event just doing a quick email intro whatever.
When you become the common point of contact for two new people meeting you will always be top of mind for next time an opportunity comes up that is directly related to what you're doing. So always try to go into an event not looking for like how can I connect people to me, but instead looking for like common ties between other people in the room be like who are you looking to connect with today? Okay, who I met someone who might be perfect fit for you and try to foster those, those connections and introductions, but then I would also say as far as like scaling your presence for your clothing brand, I would really look at okay, like for example who is like your ideal your favorite dream customer like if I could like come to your door tomorrow with 100 of this type per person, who is that person that's going to wear your hoodies and wear your your apparel?
Would you say more of like our target demographic or like a specific person?
Just pretend like you had to describe one perfect buyer to me, who is that person?
A college student.
Any college student or a specific type of college student with specific interests, like, get as granular as you can with me.
I'd say a college student who is very, very outgoing, but at the same time, is very aware of kind of who they are as a person.
And tell me when someone buys your clothing, why do they choose to buy your hoodie over any other just random hoodie off the rack?
I think more specifically, I think the culture we're building is a big thing. Because it's very just who you are, what makes you who you are. And we also come from a, you know, a multi multicultural background. So we've seen pretty much all of it. But I think the big idea that we're trying to promote is, okay, we have comfortable hoodies, we have the idea that we are promoting high quality hoodies for a low price. But also, I think it's the name, and also kind of something that rings I've been doing more of a study on it with Carlos but kind of the cursive, but also the, because we have to find something that differentiates us, but more of the name and also kind of the vibe you get out of it.
It sounds like from what I'm hearing and feel free to jump in. And correct me if I misunderstood, but it sounds like the people who gravitate towards your brand are people who have a strong sense of self, but crave community, would you say that's true?
100%
Write, write that down.
So I feel like if you want to get your product in front of more that type of college student, you need to be looking on campus, again, asking people what types of groups or organizations have you found the most community and, and when you can kind of identify what those groups are, that's when you can because the biggest thing that you can do to scale your marketing when you have no money is to borrow other people's audiences.
This is like how we were able to scale our digital presence so quickly is because we didn't have a big audience to begin with for ourselves, like, we leveraged other people's audiences. And the way you have to think about it is your ideal buyer. It's not like you have to like birth them, right. It's like they already exist, they're walking around in the world, hanging out in certain places, buying from certain shops doing certain activities showing up in certain places.
So if you can figure out where they already hang out, let's say like there's a group of like 50 people that like meet every Friday for some sort of thing. It's like a really strong community. If you want to sell your hoodies, to those 50 people, you don't have to go out and individually find all 50 of those people. All you have to do is identify that group and then find the gatekeeper to that group. Right. And that's one person versus 50 people. And if you can develop a relationship with that one person and say, Hey, what do you have going on? Like what events do you have this quarter on campus? How can we get involved? How can we do this, you know, do something fun and creative together that you know spreads the word about our hoodies helps you foster that community even more, you can see leverage at play. So you may talk to five people and spend all semester fostering relationships with five people but those five people are going to open your products to 500 people do you see the difference? Yeah?
Thank you. Thank you.
So Ellen is like the queen of personal branding. I don't know if you can see but she's got you know, purple nails, pink nails, purple shoes, orange matches, you know everything up here. So I would love to get your perspective or for you to share your perspective with them. As far as you know what your journey was to build your personal brand and how you keep that at the core of what you do.
Personal Branding is such like a layered and nuanced topic there's so many ways you can approach this But Claire, you are correct. It is in as subtle and seemingly insignificant but actually very important ways as color psychology like if you have a primary brand color that really represents your brand where it every possible place you whenever you're there for networking where that color there's a subconscious way that people remember people in like very, again, very nuanced ways. And colors if you're actually ever interested I love nerding out about like brain science, but like colors actually make people feel things like certain colors will create physical reactions and people or like make people feel a certain type of way.
So anyways, things like that be consistent and cohesive across the board with your personal branding, but I think personal branding really just comes down to your reputation. Are you a person of your word? When you say you're gonna do something? Do you follow through? Are you a person of integrity? Can people trust you? Are you a generous and giving business owner entrepreneur? I think personal branding people make it really complicated but at the end of the day, it's the association people have and what they say about you when you're not in the room. And I think if you can just remember that that's really all personal branding boils down to.
Did an incredible job of summarizing very efficiently. Thank you.
How do you reflect on the evolution of your entrepreneurial mindset?
It's a very deep question. I mean, I think I've grown a lot as a person, just because of the experiences that I've had. Of course, a lot of it is due to like intentional efforts to continue to work on my personal development. But a lot of it just has to do with living life, you know, and that's why I think, I believe in taking action so much, because it's only through lived experiences that you can kind of gauge where things resonated with you maybe where you fell short, or you know, things that you want to lean more into versus kind of fall away from.
So I really liked that advice that you gave Petros regarding like, you know, like marketing, and who to get in front of, how would you recommend, like marketing a clothing brand to your audience on social media? Because I feel like that's something that I was good at. And then all of a sudden, like, the changes in algorithm are always different between all different kinds of platforms and social media. It's like, how do you really reach the audience that you want to reach for your clothing brand?
I think when it comes to clothing, because clothing is such a personal expression of someone's identity, if you focus less on making it about the product itself, and more about how that product fits with someone, like amplify someone identity or self expression, I think it's really through storytelling, right? When people can resonate with the story around what wearing your clothing makes them feel or makes them become in their minds. Like if there's an aspirational identity that they associate with your brand based on the storytelling that you share online with your content. I think that's much more impactful than just posting like, oh, new drop today, you know, with like a carousel of like a bunch of photos.
Because that kind of makes your apparel line more of a commodity, rather than Oh, there's only one of this in the world. Like, I want that, because it makes me feel or think a certain way about myself when I wear it.
How would you recommend like really getting like that story across? Because like, I've tested it before by trying to like, talk about like, Okay, why I started it, where I've gotten my ideas from and how I make it. But it's like, I feel like that bores people?
Do you feel it bores people? Because that's a story you tell yourself, tell yourself? Or have you heard that feedback? Like has someone said this bores me? I'm just curious.
Just see it from the reaction in views.
Okay, one thing I will give as encouragement, I don't know if this is gonna be helpful to your specific situation. But I think it's important in our digital age to say this, the content that gets the least amount of engagement like likes and comments on our social feeds are always the one on the backend that drive the most amount of dollars. I guarantee every time the posts that do like the best, like in our top 1% of content, never moneymakers, the ones that if you were looking through my feed, you'd be like, Oh, that tanked. On the back end, we might have made 10s of 1000s of dollars, hundreds of 1000s of dollars off of you know that starting point, I would never judge the success of a piece of content just based on likes and comments, you have to kind of understand first, before you even post anything, I would try to understand what what is the action that I hope someone takes from this?
Is it just to like and engage with your content? If that's the purpose, then yeah, of course, if it didn't meet the mark, you kind of had to go back to the drawing board and go, Okay, what can I do differently to lean into, you know, what, what's, you know, cause someone to react in a certain way. But if your end goal is to use social media to drive sales, then I don't think prioritizing and planning your strategy around getting more engagement is actually going to be the same strategy that I would use to drive more sales. Does that help at all?
Yeah, that does.
Okay, good.
I would love to give you the opportunity to basically summarize what you would love a key takeaway to be for this group, as some of them graduate in, you know, a month and a half or just as they continue the rest of the semester and educational journey.
Oh, man, put me on the spot. I think the one thing I would want all of you to take away as, as students like, as you you know, leave university and go into the world is never allow yourself to be the person who disqualifies you from an opportunity. When you're looking to do something, something you want to apply for something you want to start something you want to you know, raise your hand and throw your name in the hat for even if you don't think you're ready. Even if you don't think you're qualified. Even all the reasons you could list for why you're not the perfect person to take that job. have that opportunity have that success. Don't let yourself be the person who disqualifies. Let someone else tell you "no". Don't tell yourself no before you even put your name in the hat I think that would be like the number one thing I hope you all carry with you.
