Hello everyone and welcome to reverb. My name is Alex Helberg, and I'm pleased to introduce today's special episode of the podcast. Our show today is being streamed on our main RSS feed, but it's also a featured digital panel for the 2022 Computers and Writing conference. We had originally planned this episode to be featured as part of the 2020 Computers and Writing conference before it was cancelled due to the COVID 19 pandemic. But we are pleased that we're now able to present to you our panel episode entitled How can podcasting help us re engage with social justice inside and outside the academy? In this show, three of our CO producers: myself, Sophie Wodzak, and Calvin Pollak reached out to individuals doing social justice work in our local communities. In the upcoming segments, you'll hear me talking with Danny Singerman, a food justice advocate working in Hartford, Connecticut, Sophie Wodzak checks in with our previous guest and friend of the show Crystal Grabowski who does reproductive justice work in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. And finally, Calvin Pollak presents a conversation with his colleague, Avery Edenfield, a faculty member in the English department at Utah State University and an advocate for LGBTQ issues in the University and beyond. Afterward, the three of us take some time to reflect on the through lines we noticed in our conversations, and offer some takeaways on the role that podcasting can play in helping amplify social justice work both inside and outside of the Academy. We hope you enjoy.
Hello, everybody, this is Alex Helberg. Rob reporting in from Hartford, Connecticut. I am lucky to be joined here today with Danny Singerman, who is the Advocacy Coordinator with the healthy Hartford hub. Danny, thanks so much for being with me today.
Thanks for having me.
Yeah, it's great to great to get to sit down and talk with you. So I'd love to hear a little bit about and the listeners would love to hear to a little bit more about the advocacy work that you're currently involved in. And how did you become involved in that?
Sure. So I am, like you already said the Advocacy Coordinator for the healthy Harper hub. That title basically means that I not only work with the members of the group, so they are comprised of community members, as well as stakeholders. And stakeholders could mean the organizations that support us, as well as maybe government officials, business owners, any of those sort of people, I work with all those sorts of folks, coordinating, communicating, letting me know about meetings, communicating our messages, just letting people know, you know exactly what our practice is about. And the project is about, you know, creating not just a grocery store, but an entire healthy Hartford hub, an area, downtown Hartford, that will be dedicated towards making sure that there is access to healthy foods, that there's access to, you know, activities, things like that, that supporting small businesses, and just anything else that is important for the life of a city and for neighborhoods that depend on a healthy city.
Yeah, I was curious to ask you about some of the of the more sort of communication based aspects of the work that you do. So you run a lot of social media accounts, you said you do email communication, how else would you say communication kind of comes into the work that you do with healthy Hartford hub?
Well, I mean, like we already mentioned, so we do email, we have a newsletter, we also have social media. So that's Instagram and Facebook, they also have a Pinterest account. And we just use that to share like, you know, recipes and healthy tips and things like that. But one of the main parts of the work is actually going in speaking to people, making the community members going and talking to business owners, as well as you know, speaking to people at schools and things like that, parents, people who are raising kids, but they might not necessarily be the parent of the child, maybe grandparents or guardians. That's part of the communication that we do as well.
I'm really interested in that latter aspect where you're actually getting to, you know, have interactions with people. I was wondering if you could tell me a little bit about what are some of the best ways that you found to get people engaged or interested in the work that you're doing the work that healthy Hartford hub is doing? I guess, do you have any good sort of conversation starters like what do you use to pique somebody's interest who might not otherwise know about about these issues?
So So actually, earlier you asked me a question, I didn't really explain why I got involved. So let me explain that really quickly. And then it will make sense. So basically, a few years Years ago, I was a divorced mom of two little kids. One was just like one years old. And I was living, you know, in the north and neighborhoods in Hartford. And there are no grocery stores here. Except for smaller ones to like, save a lot. See town is on the south end. But still, it's, you know, it's a small grocery store. There's another one, but it's kind of expensive. And I was one of those people that this project is for a person who was pushing a stroller with a one year old and a little kid, you know, trying to get to the grocery store to get food because I didn't have a car, 40% of our residents do not have vehicles, or taking the list. And that's expensive, or taking a taxi, which is even more crazy. Or taking the bus. So I was one of those people and I was approached, because I was also an AmeriCorps member I was AmeriCorps VISTA, serving the North Parker Promise Zone, and working out of City Hall. And you know, because of that I was meeting a lot of people in a lot of different meetings, planning meetings, development meetings, things like that. And I was approached by someone from Harvard community loan fund, who was a part of a project for possibly opening up a co op grocery store. And they initially, I guess, the idea was initially just trying to start a co op, I've been a part of those before, where they'll just go and purchase a bunch of food. And then, you know, it'll be like in one location, and everybody comes and picks up the food. So I was like, yeah, absolutely, I was at once, for the church that I used to go to, but then is just started to grow. And the project, you know, a practice has a lot of money behind it and millions of dollars that has support. But the support that they really needed was that community members. So someone like me, a single mom at the time, was perfect, because it really meant something to someone like me. And I mentioned and I talked about this all the time that one of the things I noticed is that if you go to where people are already congregating, you will be able to have a higher impact. So for example, at my wife, she's eight now but at the time she was at a daycare, okay, and daycare was pretty big. And it had a really, like, it was so cool. It had a really cool governance, kind of like a PTA. But it wasn't a PTA because the kids were like to, like, you know, three or less. But it was, it was super cool. Like they had a president, a secretary, Vice President treasurer. And I remember going to these meetings, and they're like voting on stuff and everything, it was really awesome. And from that, I realized, like, people are already here, you know, and they're already doing that sort of thing. And they're already supportive of their, their kids, and they care about that stuff. So why don't we go and talk to people like that, you know, churches, as well as an AmeriCorps member, we used to have to go to home business owners and churches, and we would go to the churches, and you know, talk to the pastors and different leadership and things like that, and see if we can get things put into their programs. And from that, we got a lot of people who were interested in joining like a working group. And so currently, one thing that I'm doing is my daughter goes to, you know, a local school. And what I do is I go to the school, and I just talk about healthy food and healthy things like that. And you're working on ideas for projects. So one thing that I'm planning to do is show up on Friday afternoons, and make movies and trail mixes and stuff like that for the kids. So it's actually more like, you know, just do the things that people just probably need a little bit of help with a show for them in that way, and then they'll show up for you. That's what I'm saying,
that is so cool. I really appreciate that answer so much just because I think it's really revealing of the fact that like, you know, you don't have to go out and like bring somebody you know, from like, Oh, hey, you get up off the couch. And like, you know, come join me in this advocacy effort that there are already people that are like active and engaged and like want to be engaged in more.
So that point that doesn't really work. Like the thing that I noticed about like trying to go after people who are not really interested is that you're going to get the same results. People were already out showing up for the community showing up for their kids already being a part of something, that means that they first of all have this time. And a city like this, a lot of people are at well below the poverty level, and they are working multiple jobs. So they do not have time to go to these meetings in the evening. But what will happen is when they do have a tie, so you know, from doing this kind of work and organizing and all that sort of thing, from that you will be able to pull them and because their neighbor or their brother or their sister or their cousin or whatever was going to this event that was already held at the school. So I feel like that's super important. Like we shouldn't be trying to force people off the couch. We should be more like the people who are already up and out are the ones that you should be targeting. You know,
yeah, I've always kind of felt that way with, you know, in seeing certain activist movements that are you know, like whether they're on social media or other places just trying to get people from zero to 60 in you know, three seconds or whatever. It's like, There's already people that are going 40, you know, or 50. Like, they're already people that are on their way there. Yeah, I also really loved what you said too, about, you know, using food as kind of a way to bring people together to so is this kind of one of the first times that you've done where you've like, you've had like a food based workshop, or you've used food as kind of a way to get people involved? Or have you done some things like this before.
So I have not put them on myself, but I have participated in them. And that's what kind of just kind of looked around I was like, this is really a smart idea. So you can get this some kind of pilot program called, I think it was about food matters. And no Cooking Matters, sorry, Cooking Matters. And they went to my daughter's daycare, and they would show us how to shop for food, how to look at labels, how to prepare food, and every night, we would go home, not every night, it was once a week. So every week, he would go home with a bag of groceries to cook the recipe that we had tried. And so it was super popular. Like I think they didn't have any more places. Everybody was just like super excited. Most people showed up every single week. Yeah, it just was like, everyone was so excited. Like everybody was happy, everybody was talking to each other. And it's so funny, because this is the kind of city where a lot of people come here because of low rent, and you know, things like that with the intention in the hope that they can move out. You know, so when things get better for them financially, they will move out, which means the community isn't that strong in terms of neighbors, like neighbors helping neighbors is much not to say there isn't any, like I see a lot of examples of that all the time that would love to share. But it's just not people don't know each other that great, right? So at this event on that food or Cooking Matters, people were just like talking and laughing. And this was a few years ago. So now I might go again, with my eight year old daughter, when we see these people like out and about. It's like the kids hold hands and you know, play with each other, they remember each other and they don't go to the same schools anymore. And the parents were all talking to each other. And, you know, it really did the community. I think food is so important because we all got to eat. And you know, gathering around the table is just it's it's something that, you know, it's strong. It's a strong bond.
Absolutely. Oh, that's so cool. Thank you for sharing that. That's really amazing. Yeah, so I'm also kind of curious to hear a little bit about, you know, like, like your kind of success stories to so in your time working with healthy Hartford hub, could you tell me about you know, a time when you had a, you know, a project or an organizing effort that went over super well? What kinds of things do you think went into making that a success, particularly as it pertains to, you know, communicating with people and kind of making those connections with the community like you're talking about?
So we did two things that I thought was pretty cool. And again, it was centered around health. So one was a well, I call it a walk in the park Wednesdays. So on Wednesday, we was the evening, I think it was around like an August. Last year, we all met in the park, and just took a walk around the park. And it was nice, like people were talking to each other. It wasn't a crazy, huge turnout. But what happened is, since we did it every single week, people who couldn't make it showed up the next week, you know, and they told someone else. So it ended up being where at least, you know, you saw people like two or three times throughout this, just walk in the park Wednesday. And Kenny Park is a place that has been just under you like it's a really, really huge part and one of the biggest or I think it's the biggest probably in the Northeast. So it's like the biggest park in a city and the Northeast. And Hartford is actually a super great city. So this is like it's really cute, like the park is crazy. Like there, there's like surreal. So people are like not using it to the best of their ability. And so just by walking around walking around time and just seeing all the beautiful ingredient greenery in the foliage was just really nice. So that was one thing and the lead up was you know, I posted on Instagram no actually this at this point. And we're only on Facebook that posted on Facebook because most people are on Facebook that posted on Facebook or our Facebook page. And I shared in some of the really strong part for Facebook groups that we have. So there are a lot of them absolutely one one of the most popular one is Hartford dwellers and usually people are complaining and that was but every once in a while there's some nice stuff so like you were just sharing like computers in the park, you know, let's go for a walk and then what I would do is you know what, we were on Instagram now I just kind of saw the post in my head. So we were I was sharing like first of all, you know that was just stay hydrated. What's your tips on staying hydrated throughout the day, and then I will also share tips on just starting like a walking program like a walk for 10 minutes. You know, walk up the stairs, walk with your friends, take your kids on a short walk little little things like that. And then of course, I will pop in there, Hey, join us on Wednesday. And so I think that really, you know, got people's attention, like, oh, that's this is different, you know, instead of the gloom and doom that can sometimes happen, it was more like, hey, let's just do this. Like, let's just try this. So that was really cool. Okay, and then the smoothie challenge. So I did a smoothie challenge. The smoothie challenge was basically just to introduce people to different types of food and different ways of eating, I just shared different smoothie recipes, I found them either on Pinterest, or, like, I had the smoothie diet book. So I kind of revamped some of them to be a little bit more palatable, because they're like, for diet, you know, so if you want little kids to eat, it might need some use a little bit more banana, or dates, or whatever. So we did that. And not a lot of people participated in this, because we had just gotten on Instagram, people didn't really know who we were yet, but we did get people who did make some of the smoothies, and they took a video or pictures of it, and they posted it. And to me, that was kind of like, okay, if we could give them a way to you know, interact, that would be really cool. So I actually want to try to do that again, and put some, maybe some ad dollars behind it and see if that might help. But then the other part of it is I felt like, you know, we need to do a in person version. So this is why I went to my daughter's school. And I talked to them about, hey, let's do some smoothies, let's do that sort of thing. So my goal is with what I told you earlier, is to basically, you know, do these smoothies with the kids and then send them home with the recipes. So I'm kind of trying to mimic Cooking Matters on a shoestring budget, but I do think that will be you know, kind of useful because the kid because my daughter so and my home, like we drink smoothies all the time. And I told her Okay, so you helped me and she was like, Yeah, I'll help you. But listen, they're not going to drink it if they see spinach in it. So. So I'm like, Okay, I'm gonna figure out what to do, which might be like pre mixing, you know, the, the basis of the smoothies and putting it, like just putting the kids put the fruit in. But I think parents will be interested to know what was in there. So, you know, that's something that we're going to do. And then the other part of it is, I will make video and take pictures and show the kids making it because I think that it will definitely make parents, you know, become interested and excited around this idea that their kids are making healthy food, you know, so, yeah, that's, uh, that's it, that's what we're doing.
That is so cool. I mean, I think what I love so much about both of those examples that you just gave is that, you know, it's like there's a place an organizing work for, you know, like holding a rally, like having a march and things like that. But, but like you said, it doesn't always have to be like doom and gloom, like let's, you know, focus super heavily on on the problems. Let's focus instead on like, what, you know, like, what food security looks like? What like access to healthy food looks like, what does it feel like to actually have? What can we do now? Yeah, exactly. So I find that really inspiring. And I appreciate that. And just towards that end, we can we can kind of start wrapping things up here. What would you say? I guess, as any words of advice to anybody who wants to get involved in, you know, food justice, advocacy, or this kind of organizing in their own communities? What kind of advice do you have for for these, these prospective communicators about food justice?
I think that, basically, what we're doing is learning what works. And one of the best ways to learn what works is to go ask the people, and don't just make assumptions. I think that's the biggest problem that a lot of times people tell, you know, those who would be affected, this is what you need, as opposed to asking them, well, what do you need, you know, what would be most, you know, beneficial to your life right now. And like I just mentioned, like, we're working on what we can do right now, as opposed to, like, you know, things that might be a heavier lift, not to say that we're not doing that at the same time. Like, they're, we're having meetings with developers and all that sort of thing. But I feel like the if we're talking, if we're really talking about grassroots, that's where you should go, you should go talk to the people who this is going to be affecting, and ask them, what do they personally want? What would you know, move the needle on, you know, just making things better for health and health outcomes and an area and then do those things, you know, like, do those things as opposed to you know, focusing all your time and effort and telling people what's wrong with them, their health, all that sort of thing? Because these are people you know, so I think like, when it comes to food justice, just think about what people want. And they will talk to them, you know, asking them questions. Definitely if you can do this around food, and then just be respectful of cultures and and, and don't tell people don't eat that instead say, let's try this. You know, let's let's try this together. You know, and get that feedback too, because some stuff is not gonna taste good. We got to be honest.
Oh my gosh. Well, this has been so much fun. Danny, I want to say thank you. Once you Going to Danny Singerman, the Advocacy Coordinator with the healthy Hartford hub. Thank you very much for being here with us today. We really appreciate it.
Yeah, thank you for having me.
Okay, I am here with Crystal Grabowski. And I will start by just asking crystal, can you introduce yourself and tell tell us the kind of work that you do?
Yeah, absolutely. My name is Crystal Grabowski, and my pronouns are she her, and I am a abortion care worker, and an abortion fundraiser. I work at a an abortion providing clinic in western Pennsylvania. And I also am a board member of Western pa fund for choice, which is a abortion fund in western Pennsylvania that serves patients and provides financial assistance for patients at Allegheny Reproductive Health Center.
Wonderful, and how did you get involved in this kind of work?
Um, I began doing volunteer abortion, access fundraising. And you know, I really enjoy doing the work and talking about abortion access and services. So I ended up getting a job at a clinic, I really enjoyed doing that as well. And I just ended up basically doing both things at the same time, because they go together.
Yeah. And my next question is, what have you found is the best way to engage people who are unfamiliar with the kind of work that you do? Do you have maybe a good conversation starter or opener? Yeah, my,
my conversation starter is really unfortunate, because it, it's always based around the attacks on abortion access, that have been happening, and escalating in severity and frequency over the last five to 10 years, I've been doing this work for five years, but really, you know, the attacks on abortion access have been fairly consistent and escalating over the last several decades. And, you know, I, you know, there's new stories all the time. And we're seeing new developments, you know, on a daily and weekly basis, and all of this is awful, and really horrific. And I, I try to help people understand what's happened, because it's also really confusing. It's intentionally confusing. Abortion bans and restrictions are, they're all over the place. They're, they're state by state. It's an overwhelming amount of information sometimes, and it's really confusing. So I often use those as starting points to saying like, hey, this happened, this is what this means. This is how it impacts people. So you know, it's, it's like a, it's a really awful thing to have to be talking about. But, you know, that's, that's what were the conversations are starting and
where I'm going from, like, current events and like, yeah, news. Okay, so this isn't the
news today. This is what it means. This is the reality. Sure.
Okay, so in your experience, what would you say? So you've got somebody interested in the conversation or interested in what you're telling them? You know, having started, how do you move people from interest to action? Do you have strategies for doing that?
Yeah, I like to talk about how the policies, and the legal conversations that we're seeing are directly impacting people and focusing on you know, the needs that arise, how people are impacted. So, you know, for example, the Texas SPCA abortion ban that has been in effect since September 1 2021. That's an abortion ban that has been in effect for over six months, where the majority of people in Texas are not able to access abortion services, if they're over six weeks. It's unconstitutional. It's racist, it's, it's all these all awful things. And, you know, if I'm talking about that, then I talk about people, you know, now people in Texas who become pregnant and are seeking abortion services now need to travel. Okay, so they're traveling several states. They're even taking, you know, plains to Western Pennsylvania, and we are seeing Texas patients in Pennsylvania. So then I'm talking about the cost of travel, talking about the cost of plane tickets. And in doing that, I can say like, you know, one way that you can help if you hear this awful story, and how this is impacting people, is you can help people, you can help support organizers and workers who are helping people navigate this political reality and helping people get to these services by help, you know, paying for things, helping them get from point A to point B. So then, you know, I moved from a new story to help, you know, pointing people to organizations that need support, pointing people to possible donations and things like that. So, you know, in talking about the reality and the impact on individuals, you can point out individual needs that exist now.
Sure, like breaking it down into smaller. Yeah.
Like, like, oh my god, this story is so horrible, you know, it makes you angry? What can you do? Yeah, you can turn to this organization and support them. The people who are, you know, doing this work, you can make a financial contribution, you could, you know, share these talking points, you know, there are little asks that you can do, and then you get somebody involved, you give them the tools to take action.
Great. So, I wonder if you could tell me about a time you can take this question in two ways. But wonder if you could tell me about a time when a project or an organizing effort was either surprisingly successful, you know, in a way that you weren't expecting or maybe didn't, didn't turn out the way you thought it would? Like, have you ever been in sort of like surprised by something that you tried in an organizing space?
Yeah, the first thing that comes to mind is like a positive thing. So, you know, I think it's important to also look at like the negative when things fail. I mean, I guess, the first thing that came to my mind was success, because I, because I do a lot of abortion, access fundraising work, getting donations for patients, so that way they can, they can get to their appointment. So I am often surprised by how willing everyone is to help. I feel like when I've made specific asks, I'm always surprised in a good way about how if you always say, This is what someone needs, people will rush to fill that need. Like, for example, I can think of like a specific time where there was a individual who needed like about $500 for their abortion service. And I said, like, this individual needs $500. And I got that money donated for that person in 12 minutes.
Do you say it like online? Or? Yeah, yes, it
did on social media. And then like, you know, I'm involved in a lot of different communities, like a lot of like, abortion access communities, people who are who identify who are organizers and identify as pro abortion and like to help when they can. So I posted this to that audience, and I got $500 for that person in 12 minutes. That's amazing. Yeah. It's just and then like, I wasn't expecting that, like, I, you know, I
Yeah, I figured every little bit helps or a little bit. Yeah.
And I would be able to help this person. But, you know, like, 12 minutes later, I was like, sharing that money with the individual.
That's wonderful. So it seems like what you're saying is that, like, you found a lot of success in sort of taking, like a big ask, like, support reproductive justice and breaking it down to like, this person needs $500 right now. Yeah. Okay. Like, you know, like in order to get to an appointment and pay for an appointment, right. Like, they
need that right now. Yeah. And people will help, like you ask, and you have a big ask. And you say exactly what needed, like people will come and help? No,
that's great. I mean, I think, yeah, people do care. And I think that's, I mean, at least like, it seems like people are sort of like they care so much and are at a loss because like, how do you help with these great big things, but like breaking it down as a way that like I as a person in my $20 will help that other human? That seems very effective?
Yeah. So if you start with like a horrifying thing like SBA and the Texas abortion ban, yeah. And the idea that, like, there are people who are taking plane trips out of their state to access a health care service, you go from that. And then you can go like, Oh, my, this is what someone needs right now. To do this, you can help them right now. And then you get like the $20 or $50. Yeah, and that accumulates, and then you're able to help that person. That's amazing.
So So you were saying just a minute ago that you're like involved in a lot of sort of different communities in this space? So, you know, you're affiliated with various like levels of, of networks and organizations. So what do you view as the role of activists working with or within sort of larger larger institutions organizations, how do you maintain a commitment to radical change working within those kinds of constraints?
So I think that you have to be open to working with everyone who, who is willing to help and being open to have conversations and doing coalition work. And, and and just doing cooperative work with other organizations that are safe organizations. You know, I want to be honest, that there are some harmful organizations and leftist spaces. Yeah. You know, like know who you are talking to, but you know, most organization shins are trying to do good work. And, you know, just be mindful of who you're talking to, you know, you don't want to talk to boss, necessarily, but because like, I know that, you know, I'm just going to name the big name, but like you don't plan parenthood can be a difficult organization to work with at times. But at the same time, there are so many amazing people who work for Planned Parenthood, there are there's also a rise in unions in Planned Parenthood clinics and affiliates. So it's like, yes, it's great to reach out to Planned Parenthood workers, and their unions and to collaborate with them. And I think that like knowing, like, you know, approaching it like that, is a much more positive and constructive way than saying, like, you know, Planned Parenthood is a is a can be a harmful organization and the reproductive justice movement, which is also, you know, like, there's a lot of like, really valid conversations happening there. But, you know, I, there's a big difference between, like, looking at what a Planned Parenthood CEO is doing, and looking at what the individual workers are doing. So I just, you know, you know, be mindful of who you're talking to, but still reach out and make those connections. And, you know, constructive criticism, and navigating these conversations of harm are also really important. But, you know, they're not, it's not like one or the other, you know, you can still be engaged in those conversations of harming healing. But then also, you can be working with people who share the same goal with and doing really excellent collaborative work for the same goal in getting people access to these services. So
wonderful. That's complicated. Yeah, it was complicated. Well, we get we get tricky with this podcast. I this is perfect. Crystal, thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it.
Hello, everyone, I'm Calvin Pollak. I'm joined here today by Dr. Avery Edenfield. Avery is an assistant professor of technical communication rhetoric in the Department of English at Utah State University. Avery, thank you so much for joining me.
Thanks, Calvin,
I really wanted to invite you for this conversation. Because you know, the broader purpose of this episode is we're talking about the connections between activism and academic work. And you're someone whose work really inspires me who not only you do research about activism, but you do activism yourself, and you do very inspiring activism within an academic context. So I wanted to ask you first, if you could just tell me a little bit about your research and teaching and how you incorporate activism into your work. As a faculty member at Utah State.
I think a lot of it goes back to reading an article that inspired me. Natasha Jones technical communicators advocate, she called for what she she called an activist stance, which is going from describing oppression, to actively trying to change the conditions and to actively trying to bring about justice. You know, for me, that was just like a groundbreaking moment to, to think about my work. And also thinking kind of the banality of evil by just describing conditions of oppression as if I'm, I'm not also embedded in those conditions myself. Right as if I'm not by reporting them out. I'm not also participating in this somehow. So it would became important for me to seek ways to actively intervene when I'm talking about that. And I think it goes back I've talked about this before, too, when I was queer kid at Lee University, which expels students through being queer, LGBTQ plus when I was a student there, and they had come out and was really struggling with my identity and you know, because they expelled students I was whipped in a lot of fear. I teachers actively were working against me to get me expelled and to silence me and trying to pray the gay away kind of stuff. Most of my friends stopped talking to me and even my family and friends stopped my family stopped talking to me for a while. So as I pretty much lost all my social structures, almost all my social support networks, were all gone. And so I went, I would spend a lot of time in the library and I would I would read a lot of books, so they had queer theology and queer feminism and stuff like that. I mean, feminist theology and queer theology. So we just pour over those books. And they would give me the gave me a language to describe my content. but I didn't feel any material change. And if I was frustrated, I was frustrated that these theories helped me to understand why it was happening. But I didn't have any tools to change it, except just to kind of live through it. And so when I became, but I got into a position where I could publish scholarship, and I could do, I could teach, and I could research around those issues I wanted to change I wanted to make, I wanted to provide tools for that, that queer kid reading in a library going what now. So that was really my inspiration. And one of the ways that I do try to incorporate activism into my work as a faculty faculty member is to follow along with my university's mission statement, and really cold it really hold hold them to task to to follow this mission statement. So for Utah State is a land grant university, they have an obligation to serve the public. And that includes the whole public, right, not just the whole public of the state, not just people who look like us, or those who are in power includes everyone. And so I don't do any likes, like lobbying or anything like that, in my role as a faculty member. I do. I do hold that mission statement is sacred, and try to think of the ways that we don't quite live up to that, and how we can do better. The issues that I'm probably most passionate about right now, our LGBTQ access, issues to health care, support, you know, feeling like cultural support at the university level for people who are underrepresented at Utah State. And so I keep in mind, Sarah meds statement that diversity is a local tool. You know, it's not about aesthetics. It's not a benign plurality. But it's a tool for power, right? It's about it's about power. And so that's one of the things that I'm really interested in, working on now. Utah State,
that's fantastic. You brought up the some of the specific issues that you've been working on, around health access for LGBTQ plus individuals, I wonder if you could talk a little bit about what it's like doing that work in a state like Utah, which is extremely culturally and politically conservative, from a broad level? How do you feel that sort of hegemonic conservatism when you're doing the work, and and what are some strategies that you've developed for approaching people, you know, whether students or administrators to kind of get past their initial blind spots and biases when thinking about these issues?
Yeah, that's a that's a great question. I keep going back to Utah State's mission statement, and I have it here, the mission of Utah State University is to be one of the nation's premier student centered land grant and space great universities by fostering the principle that academics come first by cultivating diversity of thought and culture, and by serving the public through learning, discovery and engagement. So I use that when I talk to administrators about things, ways that we are not so cultivating diversity of thought and culture, or we're not serving the public. Again, that includes all public, right. So if there are, for example, trans students at Utah State who aren't being served, then that that's points to a failure or mismatch, a contradiction in a mission statement. And that's one way that I keep doing it, I think the largest thing is to, to hook into things that people care about building that bridge on the shared values. I think, you know, a lot of people want to see USU, succeed, they want to see students succeed. So by being able to point out contradictions between public statements like this, and what's actually happening can sometimes be an inflection point. I also think it's important, it's important to know where those inflection points are. So for example, as a kind of up and coming Space Grant, land grant university, Utah State, you know, just received the top r1 designation. So, you know, by what, by pointing to things where there, there's some anxiety around like, how they're perceived, you know, within sports, how they're received, how they're perceived regionally by their peers, or aspirational peers, peers that they want to be like they want to grow to state state competition between Utah State and University of Utah. Pointing to those things, I think, can also be a leverage point to say, look, they've been doing this for a long time. They received tons of federal funding for it, they received recognition for it. We can do it too. They've already paved the way. I think that's that's another inflection point with with Utah. State.
Yeah, no, I'm glad you brought that up, because that's something that I've definitely observed since moving here is there is this kind of like, sense that even though Utah is a state with, you know, majority Republican legislature, Republican governor, there is this sense. And I feel it both at Utah State and like, from statements that I've read from the Governor, that Utah needs to have sort of a positive public image to the rest of the country. Like there's this kind of like, the the national gaze is something that Utah is very cognizant of. And it feels like that that is the kind of inflection point that you're talking about, like you can sort of leverage that for change. Would you agree with that?
Yeah, I would, I would think that there are some other states that are more conservative, where they would rather take the hit economically and PR, wise to the CPC and is soft on a value. I just don't think that's necessarily the my experience. I mean, maybe there are other ways that's true. But I think Utah does try to try to work hard to cultivate an image of of welcome. Right, that the I think they don't want to be seen perceived as bigots. And, and I do think that's an inflection point. I mean, I go back to the trans bill that just passed here, where the governor vetoed it, he put out statements against the trans ban. And he's a Republican governor, he put up he put statements against the trans ban. He was crying on television, about how, how painful it was that the bill went Pat went through, it doesn't mean that there's Republicans that voted for it, or people who voted for it. You know, they still get that political win. But the governor was able to strike a strike a balance of trying to seem, you know, empathetic. And so I think that's a good example of, you know, trying to, to how much like me, your perception can matter here.
Sure. I wonder if you have any examples of a project or an organizing effort that you've been involved in that you were surprised at how successful they were? And looking back on those, what do you think contributed to those outcomes.
So I worked for an employer that had trans health exclusions. In other words, they did not cover anything related to gender transition, specifically. And so on, that's a, that's a major problem, because you're singling out a group of people to deny specific health care to, right. So if you were, for example, of a woman who needed a breast reduction, and your doctor said you needed it, and gave you a notice saying that you needed it to your insurance company, they would provide it. But if you're a trans man looking for top surgery, similar procedure, they would refuse it, they would deny it. So it's clearly discrimination based off gender identity and sex. So it took, I started working on that, it took about three years for it to change. Thankfully, it did change. But the lessons that I learned along the way that we're I felt really impactful is first to make allies with the people from Mark with different margins of maneuverability. So I just at this place, did not have much power. But I was able to draw people into the cars that had a lot more power than I did. And ultimately, they were the ones to push and push and push and get it done. I kept working with them. And I kept the issue in their mind, you know, like, basically almost had a timer every three months to ping them. It's like, Hey, how's it going? You know, can we meet and talk about it? And that went on for years. So I definitely kept the issue in their mind. I did, you know, make a formal report about the discrimination itself. So those things and following up on that report. So other thing I did, what I would recommend is doing your homework. So I had a fact sheet on trans health care at the ready whenever people needed it. Whenever those allies said, Hey, I'm going into this meeting, can you give me a fact sheet? Here you go, go for it. I had that ready at any moment, I did the research with other folks. And on what our peers did aspirational peers and other folks were doing, as well as mounting lawsuits for companies that we're refusing trans health care. In fact, some more really recent news. And so, yeah, like being able to have all that homework done and ready that I could just send was really, really useful and I think ultimately paid off. Also, just knowing knowing where those pressure points are, like I said before that I knew the things that my employer was anxious over, and they wanted to appear diverse and inclusive. They wanted to compete with big boys, you know, so called Big Boys So I think ultimately, people were became more anxious about the appearance than whether or not they were doing the right thing. And mounting lawsuits was part of that. I think ultimately, what happened was one of the head honchos told the ultimate person in charge, that they were worried they'd be called out in public, at a public conference over this. And that it would, that was one of the things that ultimately made them change was that they were concerned about being called out publicly. And so that, you know, the last thing I would say is being patient persistent. I know people got sick of me. You know, I talked to anyone that I could talk to you about it, I brought it to people's attention whenever I could. I was in a public training on, you know, workplace harassment, and I brought it up there, whether it was appropriate or not, you know, rooms full of people. I would bring it up. Anytime I could talk one on one with people. Hey, did you notice was an issue? More often than not? No, that did not even know was an issue. So yeah, I met with the HR I met with the insurance representatives I met with, you know, diversity inclusion committees, I met with anyone I knew who was interested in diversity, including inclusion, I met with my boss and met with their boss. And I got them all on my side, you know, they ultimately were on my side with that. And so, because of the, because it was the right thing to do. And there was I had a fact sheet, right. And then I did recruit others to kind of make those complaints to and bring it to people's attention. I didn't never wanted to make enemies in the process that was never my attention, I always was, was gracious and kind and patient. But I wanted them to do the right thing. And I would frame it as that, you know, and I had to admit, I had to be patient. Sometimes it means giving people the opportunity to fail, you know, but let their failure, you know, then then you can move to the next thing. But it was hard for me like to be patient and let them give give them the chance to do the right thing. And that's why I think ultimately, it took years and years, but it worked its way through and made the change. And there's healthcare in place today. So, you know, ultimately, it paid off, but it was a lot of work.
Ya know, and, and a lot of just being annoying, like, like being willing to be that annoying person, but who's also who's also gracious and kind, persistent, but kind.
Yeah, you want to like throw your hands up and like start a protest or shot or walk out or a strike, that that is not going to be effective with a lot of, you know, administrators who most folks don't even know their names, right. Like, was, you know, as you move up a ladder, like, I don't even know who's in charge of what you know. So it does, it's not as effective as I think, these these things that I mentioned, these four stops, and having all done my research beforehand and having it in multiple ways that could just be shared, I think was was one active thing that I did, you know, besides like having my my timer on my calendar of like, my reminder on my calendar about going back and talking to people over and over and over.
My final question for you is a little bit more philosophical, because, you know, there have been a lot of conversations over the last few years in social justice spaces in academia about how to achieve radical change when you work for an institution of higher education, you know, what does that look like? When this is an institution, that kind of reifies hegemonic power structures in so many ways, you know, and, you know, if we think about the lessons of critical pedagogues like Paulo Frary, and Henry Drew, you know, these these institutions reproduce the ruling class. And so, you know, when you're within these spaces, how do you conceptualize activism as still making a difference? Or what does a difference mean in these contexts?
Well, I think part of it starts with the kind of classroom conditions and the kind of mentoring relationships that I have, you know, on those one not one to one relationships within the department within the committee's I'm on, they were behavior modeling, and trying to like I teach consensus decision making in my classrooms on purpose. I teach activism in the classroom. I often find myself bringing those, you know, the way that we as a as a program, a tech comm program have redesigned how we do meetings to make them more democratic and consensus based. So I would call that prefigurative pedagogy, which is a paper that I've written about with Jessica Rivera, but it talks about like doing within your life, the kind of world that you want to create. And so that So I that's how I tried to navigate it, you know, you could I believe you can be in the institution, but not of the institution. You know, it's kind of funny, I just got tenure, and I got a text from a person who I really look up to that texted me tenure as power. That's what they said. And I was like, wow, it's like, don't don't forget the tenure is power, you have to use it. And so that's what I look forward to as a tenured person to take the place, the people who worked with me, you know, as a junior faculty and saying the tough things to people that you can say, and using that power positionality that I now have, and just working at all levels, right, you can't just be can't just be like programmatic. Right? It has to be taught, it has to be all the way through to your late policies, right? I mean, and doing thinking about, like, what is the goal of what is it that I'm teaching here, you know, looking for looking for opportunities for justice, and to make change. And maybe I'm teaching the project management, maybe maybe I'm teaching them, you know, science and technology studies, but But within that, that's what we're doing.
Thank you so much, Avery, this has been a great conversation. And thank you for sharing with us a little bit about your work. It's been great talking to you.
Thanks for having me. It's been a pleasure.
And we just wanted to kind of come together now to talk about what we learned from one another what we learned from our partners. So I guess we can just start going around. Sophie, do you want to get us going? What did you What did you learn from listening and talking with with your partner?
Well, so this was actually a revisit to a conversation we've had before. So we featured crystal Grabowski on a previous episode of reverb. So we kind of touched on some of the things that we covered in that episode. But I love talking to Krystal. She's an activist in the reproductive justice space, and has worn a lot of hats in that space. But I've worked with her myself in various capacities. And I've always just been impressed with her ability to really get things done. And YouTube with no crystal as well, right, she has this uncanny ability to really get a commitment out of somebody, which I think is one of the hardest things about organizing is, you know, everybody, it's not always hard to find somebody that agrees that something's a problem or agrees that something should change. These are easy wins, right? Agreeing is fine. But crystal is able to really get people motivated to do something. And I've seen her do it over and over again. So she's always somebody who I kind of look to when we think about, okay, well how you know, what is? What are effective strategies for doing that, because she really does it. And I think, every time we've talked about this, and in the conversation that we had, she really emphasizes, and I think this is something that both of your interview subjects talk about, too, is that breaking things down and making things accessible? is the way to get action. And if people right when things are big and abstract, and maybe you don't know, who you're targeting, or what you're targeting, or how you know, when things are big, you don't always get action. But if you, you know, can break down a bigger cause or bigger problem to, you know, either how that affects the person you're talking to, or what's one little thing they can do to help or, you know, making things bite sized is maybe a silly word, but making things smaller, and giving people a point of entry, I think is really, her technique turns on that. And it sounds like that was the case with the people that you talk to I don't know,
Sophie, I mean, I would just say that, like, your conversation with Crystal really emphasized the kind of accessibility of action, if that makes sense, like, like you render things accessible by giving people something to do something concrete to do. And I think that's really important for kind of leftist and social justice advocates to take to heart for all of the issues that we're concerned about. I don't know, I think that sometimes like donation drives, which is something that Krystal works on a lot in the reproductive justice space that donation drives can kind of be thought of as like charity, or something or, and there and therefore is not radical. But there's something so impactful and so important about like, knowing that that money is not going to like an organization that's going to kind of pump itself up and like do its own tax avoidance. That money is going directly to supply material need for someone who is like in dire material need. And so like you are directly intervening in the issue, there's no kind of gap between either you sort of expressing an amorphous opinion, or giving money to an organization that you're hoping we'll do something right like you are directly helping with the issue, and that that kind of renders the issue more accessible.
You don't need a big mechanism or organization necessarily do intervene, like you can buy the thing that somebody else needs and give it to them. And like you don't, nobody needs to give you permission to do that. Like, I think that's really powerful to like, make people realize like, Oh, me myself, I can help that person right over there. Like, that's Yeah, I think, yeah,
I mean, knowing Crystal and her work to that has been something that she's so anybody who is listening to this, who, you know, is in Pittsburgh who works in feminist circles, and particularly in reproductive justice, you probably know who she is. She's extremely effective at at, you know, getting people to do things, not only because she is able to, I think, rhetorically figure these big issues or refigure them into smaller, more bite sized tasks that are actually making a huge difference. Right, that, you know, we're not Damon deigning to dismantle hetero patriarchy, straight from the get go. But I mean, what she is helping people do does contribute to that effort, I think pretty directly.
So it's one thing, I think it's effective to, like, break bigger things down into something manageable, but also not feeling the need to make something bigger than it is like, you don't need big $10 words to describe something, when it's as simple as somebody's not having what they need. And so I feel like, I don't know, I feel like I've always like personally responded the best and like, felt the most compelled by activist work and communication that doesn't try to dress things up to be confusing, or to make me feel like I'm not sure you know what I mean? Like, you know, what you need, you know, that other people need that too. And it does not always have to be more complicated than that. And I respect crystal for that approach, too, because she doesn't really waste time trying to wax philosophic, like, because you don't need that to do the work.
Yeah, no. And I would say like, that's a very technical communication away way to approach this. And so one of the things that I've loved about getting to work in the program I'm working in now on working with colleagues like Avery Edenfield is that, like, he very much keeps that in mind when he's working on these social justice issues, like his research and his pedagogy are very direct about his values, and about his kind of commitment to radical representation and inclusion and equity for LGBTQ plus people. But he's always finding ways to make that as accessible as possible. And so I was really struck by his like, using the university mission statement as a rhetorical resource. I thought that was really powerful. I think that's something that's a huge takeaway, for anyone listening to this, who wants to get involved in any kind of advocacy at your university, like, look to the kind of founding documents of that university and any sort of, like broad value statements, mission statements that they're putting out? That's a huge resource for you to say, like, okay,
let's say it's your own words like,
yeah, like, let's say, let's say it's Carnegie Mellon, "our heart is in the work," right? Well, then what is the nature of that work? And do we do we all agree that our hearts or our, you know, our, in our in the kind of work that our universities name is on, you know, and let's talk about that and debate that?
Absolutely. I also love the way that that that ties in with what Avery was talking about not to invoke another $10 word, right, but prefer prefigurative pedagogy, right? Like that is something that I feel is kind of implicit in the work that all of the people that we talk to are doing, the actions or the actions that you're taking are essentially prefiguring I guess, I can't think of a better synonym for that. A world that does not yet exist, but acting as if you know, you are living in a different kind of world, right? Or imagining Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Or modeling. I mean, even like, modeling through action.
Yep. In Avery's case, you know, that is kind of like an active redefinition of, you know, something like a university mission statement, there is rhetorical power in being able to apply values to what it means to serve the community, right? Or serve all students and using that kind of, you know, their categorical definitions and being able to persuasively argue for a different kind of definition that serves you know, a kind of more just world I think was was super inspiring to hear about
tied to that but different and you guys will probably know how to describe it. I'm not sure what to say, but that the whole act of like, okay, well, maybe there are people whose minds were not going to change, like in as much as like you can't get people off off the couch as it were to do activist work if they're not already motivated, somehow, even more difficult will be to like change the minds of your opposition. Right. And maybe that's not realistic, but like, showing the opposition, Kevin, I think you talked about it, like pointing out that like oh, there's actually lawsuits against people who do this or like actually, it's better for your public image to take in like using their own like victory and like actually, that's maybe not great for you after all like that. that's really powerful. And I hadn't really, I don't know that that was like a surprising, not not surprising, but I thought that that was like a really cool, good point that seems very effective, like hitting people where it hurts or finding those pressure points, you know? Yeah, that
looks. No, we actually talk about that in my classes where when I'm working with students on like, professional editing, and thinking about ethics and professional editing that you need to name agency, honestly, and transparently, like don't use obscure language that, you know, that hides what actually happened, because that's unethical, that's that's untruthful, that you can justify that to large institutions that you work for by saying like, you don't want to get sued, do you? Like you don't want this to blow up in your face when there's a public relations crisis? Because someone realizes you kind of obscured this. And this either hurt someone or was harmful. And so yeah, I think those arguments are really important to think about how to make as a way to enact change in within powerful institutions.
Yeah, in the conversation that I had with Danny Singerman, we didn't really get a chance to talk about this specific tactic of her as much, but she actually does something kind of similar to what Avery was talking about, and, you know, holding institutions accountable by holding them to standards of public perception, right. One of the things that I always know, Danny likes to circulate as kind of an activating message in social media and other spaces, because she and the organization that she's working with are advocating for food access in the city. You know, there's the statistic that Hartford a city of, you know, 120 plus 1000 People only has one full service grocery store within its city limits, right. Most of the other grocery stores are in the wealthier surrounding suburbs. And that is a blemish on the city's record, I think, in terms of its development goals. And and the fact that yeah, like I mean, they've they've partnered with researchers from the University of Connecticut's to actually measure health outcomes in that part of the city and say, like, the city is failing as residents here, right? Like, if this is your goal to assist residents to assist in economic development in the North Hartford Promise Zone, it's not happening, right. And food access is such a huge part of that. So yeah, that strategic communication of holding other institutions accountable, I thought was really powerful across across all the interviews that we did here as well,
for sure. I mean, Another commonality that I saw across them was was just kind of finding sort of simple actions that can enact a small amount of change and just sort of involve someone in the issue and therefore, like, lead to greater engagement. And so I thought that, in your conversation with Danny Alex, like that, really came through with these sort of community events that are just and that's one reason that I think that your work on food, justice and food rhetoric is is so compelling to me, because it's such an immediate, kind of material issue. They like you don't have to do this kind of really elaborate consciousness raising. It's like, people know what it's like to be hungry. And too many people know what it's like to be hungry to the point of, yeah, like health problems, right. And so being able to kind of organize these events, which are very simple, it's like, here is a set of things that you can make easily that's affordable, that's like nutritious and, and sort of leading people through these workshops and events, like I thought that was really powerful form of materialist political rhetoric.
Yeah. No. 100% that that has always inspired me about Danny's work. And yeah, it's it is it is interesting that food, it's one of those things that we kind of touched on this a little bit that, you know, it's it does create a whole lot of pain when there's a lack of it. But when it's there it is one of the most joyful things in a lot of people's lives, right is being able to share a meal, being able to sort of activate those feelings of you know, communal solidarity in the way that even something that is as simple as sharing a meal with somebody else can materially instantiate right? We have a reason to come together, we have a reason to care about the same thing. Look at this, we're actually sharing something physical that brings us all life and vitality. Right? Yeah, I don't know. It's always been inspiring to me the kind of work that she and other people do in those spaces. But yeah, that's all part of the prefigurative notion, too. I feel Yeah.
I mean, something else that I just wanted to know that I thought was interesting. We didn't plan this, but I think both Danny and Avery kind of made a point that like for the issues they're working on, like having a kind of large protest or picket or something like that would not be appropriate. And I thought that was interesting. And I wanted to just like get everyone's take on that, because I think the past few years just kind of zooming out, have kind of revealed some of the problems with movement rhetoric that is so dependent on large demonstrations and marches and stuff like that.
I mean, I think the key word there is dependency too, right? If that's the if that's the only thing you've got in your arsenal, then that is, I think, always going to be insufficient, unless you are mounting an insurrection or something. Right. Like, I mean, that's the that's
I was gonna say to Yeah, you know, we know that this, this tactic can be appropriated by horrible people, too, right. So like, the tactic itself can't be lionized or valorized. Like, it needs to have a purpose.
Right. And I mean, again, we don't want to get to a point where we're discounting protests writ large, I mean, obviously, it's got a grand history that most people are aware of, as, like one tactic among many that, that really does help bring awareness to issues that helps people feel motivated, like actually does get some people off the couch and into the streets. But I think it's from talking to our guests here, I think in this day and age, with the ability of protest movements, especially to be appropriated by other institutions, who can, you know, take like an easy, like, you know, once something becomes like a protest movement, it has a brand and then that can be appropriated by Netflix or various other, you know, whatever companies are, like putting the label of a movement on their products, you have less of an ability to do that with the kind of like, well,
I think it's just like the fact that like a protest is, is because it's the most like photographable. And like, it's a thing that occurs in a time and place as an action that is visible. So I think that's an agent. Yeah. Right. And so there's the perception like, well, this is the movement is this stuff that we see in pictures? And like, obviously, you're not like taking photographs of every one on one conversation you have with everybody as you get. I mean, I'm like, that's because what I was going to bring this to is that I think all of our interview subjects really emphasize the need for patience, right? Like this is work that is aggregated, and it happens over the course of time. And if what you're expecting is big protest, immediate change, like that's not how it works. And if from a distance maybe, because of like, the nature of how these things get covered in the news, right? Like, you're more likely to notice those like actual sort of moments in time. And it's not really about that on its own. And so I it's not that it's unsexy, but it's maybe just like the, I don't know, sort of the not invisible activism, but it's just not visible to a crowd. And it doesn't have to be its right person you're talking to
well, and I think this is getting me thinking more conceptually about the way that our current media environments do kind of lionize that which is, you know, instantaneous, that can be quickly digested, that makes a spectacle that has that ability to feel like, Oh, we're gonna make this big change, you know, in, you know, in two seconds flat, versus what somebody like Jonathan Bradshaw came out with a really good article a few years ago about what he calls slow circulation, right, the sort of more ethical approach to seeing things as long term iterative processes by which you can change people's everything from, you know, getting a policy change to changing an individual's mind, we need to start conceptualizing these in more like slow down kinds of terms, because we are used to in a hyper mediated environment, thinking that everything by necessity has to move quickly. But I think that, you know, what we're sort of realizing now is that real community building real you know, that kind of rhetorical work that makes meaningful differences in people's lives does require us to kind of slow down take things step by step a little bit
does, I think the problem is not only that, you know, we're sort of like, led to want that sort of more direct just because you're, you know, we're modern, impatient people or whatever. But also, a lot of the problems are so immediate, like, yeah, it's hard to know like, Okay, well, maybe if I just sort of chip away slowly, in a year, somebody might have better access to food and they're like, when you know, the person next to you is literally starving right now, like, or any of these problems, right? Like, it's urgent, like in a lot of these cases, like it's a matter of life and death and it's hard to know that it is slow because I think you want it to be quicker and I think that that's you know, it's not just that we've been trained to want quick action is that we know like, we need quick action, just quick action, right? And it's just hard to know that like the way to get good, effective action out of many people, is this kind of slow burn, because wouldn't be great if it wasn't like I think that's like a hard challenge.
Well, and I think abortion fundraising is a great kind of middle ground because you are doing fast work. I mean, Crystal talked about, like getting Covering someone's abortion in 12 minutes after, you know, after putting out the message like that's, that's incredible. I mean, that's sort of providing an immediate, you know, respite to someone who needs it urgently. But that in the act of doing that, you're building a kind of institution and institutional memory that can do the slow work, hopefully, you know, and I trust that someone like crystal is doing that. And I think like the work of someone like Danny or someone like Avery, like building structures that can outlast you as an individual or that can, you know, produce a policy change that will outlast like this immediate controversy, or this immediate need is so important. So I think that's kind of how I square the circle is like, it's, it's great to make a splash in response to immediate events, but that you have to sort of produce a structure that will be there after this immediate event.
It's a tools in a toolbox. Like it can't just be one of the other and like a good movement, I think, I think we talked about this with everyone like it's diverse, there's a host of tactics, it doesn't just depend on one leader or one protest or one thing, because like, that's not, you know, sustainable or scalable. And it's just not how effective sustained action, because that's what a movement is like, a movement isn't like a flash, it's a movement. So yeah, that implies some momentum.
Exactly. We should probably start wrapping things up here. But I thought I thought that one last final kind of food for thought question for us would be to reengage with that the question that we were kind of asking with this panel, which is how does podcasting help us reengage with an amplified social justice, and at the risk of, I really don't want to be creating a hard dichotomy between, you know, academics in the ivory tower, because I don't think that's really what we do. But I think what this gave me an opportunity to do that I really enjoyed was to kind of sit back and listen to somebody else, to actually reflect critically on a conversation and think about, I can abstract and, you know, contextualize this with the kind of conceptual knowledge that that I and we have, as people that have studied this stuff for a long time, but, but actually, you know, being able to sit back and listen to somebody else tell a story about how to do this kind of effective work. I don't know. And that was a really nice opportunity. For me, I think that sometimes academics could stand to do a little bit more listening, rather than, you know, like, speaking as if we are like, fully experts on a topic like social movement rhetoric, without partnering explicitly with people that do it for their daily life, right? Well,
I think in that sort of parallel to the way that maybe the best way to get by in with organizing work is to break things down and make them accessible. However, that is either with a one on one conversation or sort of tangibly explaining what one person needs or you know, something little in concrete, I feel like in the same way, and maybe this is a little, maybe this is a reach, I don't know, but like academia can be inaccessible, right? It's like a lot. Yes, it's big. And there's a lot and it's, it's easy to feel like you don't know what you're doing in this similar way that activism feels like that, right? The problems are big, it's confusing, you know, there's a lot of people with heavy opinions and maybe that know a lot more than you do. And so talking about it in these big ways, can make you feel scared and maybe ineffective, or just not prepared to like dive in. But like, I can listen to podcasts for 50 minutes with like, humans that I can, like, hear talking, right? Like, it's different to hear somebody say it and to read it on the page. You know, as humans, we get that, right. Like, it's a different kind of experience. And I think that, and it doesn't just have to be podcasts, there's all kinds of ways that digital media could be used to do it. But just making things a little bit smaller and more accessible, is very powerful. For me. Anyway, I find that like, I'll think about something that I heard in a podcast and it sticks with me in a way that like maybe if I had read it as part of a larger, more academic work, it wouldn't have the same poignancy.
Yeah, no, I agree with that. 100% Sophie, like I was thinking of that exact kind of way of framing this like about accessibility, and different ways of mediating knowledge, right? Part of what really inspires me about work and technical communication and rhetoric right now is there's such a focus on practitioners and sort of making these kinds of theories about social justice and about equity, usable for people working in industry or politics or activism, right. And so I think that's part of what our podcast can do is make some of this academic knowledge more accessible and more usable. And it's awesome to to like hear from practitioners and treat them as the x birds, they are like a not just go to people who have been studying social movement rhetoric with exclusively within like an academic theory frame for decades, but actually hear from people doing this on a daily basis, and the knowledge they have made through their own action, their own practices. And so that's what was really inspiring to me about all these conversations.
I think podcasts are sort of an equalizer in that, like, everybody can be an expert in their area on a podcast in a way that's like, the barrier to entry is a little different in academia. But just like we were talking about, there are lots of tools. It's not to say that, like, people actually doing the work on the ground, have more expertise. It's just there's like a host of different kinds of perspectives that are necessary to like, fully get what this is all about.
Yeah. And we are able to synthesize that and that's why our podcast is the best podcast, the best one.
Bringing it all together and without us. People would be lost out there. I think.
I think every every conference panel should involve some patting yourself on the back.
That's important, but we we brought it around to that because it's no. legitimize it.
Absolutely. Yeah, it wouldn't it wouldn't be a true academic presentation if it didn't have a little bit of posturing and a little bit of back patting a little, a little self congratulatory note with with that, we hope that you all enjoyed this, as well. We had a lot of fun making this episode. And we really hope that comes through for everybody. Thank you very much for being with us today. And from all of us that reverb take care. We'll talk to you again soon. Bye bye. Bye bye, everyone.
Our show today was produced and edited by Alex Helberg. Sophie Wodzak and Calvin Pollak. re:verb's co producers at large are Ben Williams and Mike Laudenbach. You can subscribe to reverb and leave us a review on Apple podcasts Stitcher, Android or wherever you listen to podcasts, check out our website at WWW dot reverb cast dot com. You can also like us on Facebook and follow us on Twitter where our handle is at reverb cast. That's r e v e r b underscore C A S T. If you've enjoyed our show and want to help amplify more of our public scholarship work, please consider leaving us a five star review on your podcast platform of choice and tell a friend about us. We sincerely appreciate the support of our listeners. Thanks so much for tuning in.
