Welcome to Louisiana Lefty, a podcast about politics and community in Louisiana, where we make the case that the health of the state requires a strong progressive movement fueled by the critical work of organizing on the ground. Our goal is to democratize information, demystify party politics, and empower you to join the mission, because victory for Louisiana requires you.
I'm your host, Lynda Woolard. On the first interview of Season Three, I speak with Sade Dumas from the Orleans Parish Prison Reform Coalition and PAC for Justice. We talk about the foundational work that goes into successful progressive change, the tug of war between Criminal Justice Reform and rising crime rates, and how to best welcome people into the movement.
Sade Dumas! Thank you so much for joining me on Louisiana Lefty, on the very first interview of Season Three.
Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.
Well, I always start with how I met my guest. And we only met last year. We were brought together through PAC for Justice for the Orleans Parish Sheriff's race, specifically. So we haven't known one another long, but I really enjoyed working with you. And I feel very fortunate to have had that opportunity.
Yeah, it was definitely a great experience. And although we hadn't known each other before last year, I've been watching you for a while. So it was really an honor to work with you.
You're very well known in our community, as well, so... likewise. Well, tell me your origin story, Sade. What got you involved in political activism? Was it around the Orleans Parish prison, or does it predate that?
It kind of predates that. So, I'm a native New Orleanian. I'm from the Lower Ninth Ward. I'm a '90s baby. I grew up when the jail population was over 6,000. And I grew up knowing so many people who went to that jail for like the smallest, pettiest offenses, things that don't pose a risk to public safety. And I saw how those things ruined people's lives. I have a brother who's in prison right now. I have an ex-husband who was in the Orleans Parish prison, a 17 year old, for doing something that didn't pose a threat to public safety. And I saw how people came out of that jail traumatized. But truthfully, that is not what started me on this journey. Whenever I saw my loved ones, my friends, someone from my community, go to that jail, I thought, like, "Oh, maybe the legal system made a mistake," or "Oops, this is unfortunate. It really sucks that this person is going through there." It wasn't until I was a student at Tulane, and I studied sociology - so crime and human development - and just looking at the numbers that Black people were doing the same things that everyone else was doing, but Black people were disproportionately over-represented in jail. That's what triggered me to want to address this. That was the clicking point. For me that said, this is not by mistake, this is by design. You know, it's really funny because a lot of people come to this because of personal stories. And I'll admit, growing up here and seeing it so much, sometimes you're desensitized. Sometimes it's normalized. It's like, okay, that's a way of life. And it took me seeing the numbers to say, "This is not normal, and we absolutely must address this."
Well, you're still very young, but can you give us a cliff notes version of your bio, so folks know what you've been doing between your entree into political activism and today?
Yeah, absolutely. Some of the things I've done: I was a program director for a GED clinic for formerly incarcerated women, helping them receive higher education and more professional opportunities, because we know that that's one for sure way of reducing the recidivism rate. Before I was executive director of the Orleans Parish Prison Reform Coalition, I was on the steering committee. I was a VOTE member for a long time, very involved with Women With a Vision, really great organizations. And, you know, right now I sit on the task force for the City of New Orleans to create a non-police crisis response team, so that when someone calls 911, when there's a mental health emergency, a trained clinician and peer support specialist respond to that instead of a police officer, which is really important, because right now over 90% of the people in the jail are Black, over 80% have a psychiatric or substance abuse disorder. So that picture right there shows that Black people are not getting the tools we need to thrive in this community. And we're being punished in jail for it. I am also a part of the National Association of Civilian Oversight of Law Enforcement, so really just working on jails and prisons and the conditions in there. And I'm a part of the MacArthur Safety and Justice Challenge Group, the community advisory group to reduce the jail population in New Orleans safely and work with those criminal legal system actors. And so, you know, listening to some of the things that I've done, there's the reentry part, but there's the jail population part, which some people would consider, an abolitionist strategy. And there's the improving conditions part, which some people see as jail reform. Whatever language we want to use, I think it's important to do these things together. As we're working to create systems that help our community members thrive instead of going to jail for survival crimes, we must also realize that millions of people are suffering in jails right now. And we can't forget them.
How long have you been with OPPRC, and tell me what those letters stand for?
Yeah, yeah. OPPRC, it's definitely a mouthful. It's the Orleans Parish Prison Reform Coalition. So I have been executive director for almost five years, and I was on the steering committee the year before. So when I came to OPPRC, it was a few people meeting every couple of weeks. We were not a 501(c)(3). And up until last year, I was the only staff member. So I did a lot of work of coalition building, like increasing our membership by hundreds, increasing our organizational partners from 18 to over 70. We won a lot of campaigns, we stopped to jail expansion in 2019. We worked to make New Orleans one of the first cities in the country to ban tear gas against protesters, we worked with partners to stop NOPD checkpoints that were located in Black communities. They were supposed to be COVID-19 informational checkpoints, but I guess some people felt like only Black people needed that information. So we really worked hard to stop those checkpoints. And you know, just a number of things to promote healthy research backed safe alternatives to incarceration. It's just been great with how much we've been able to do, from building the board and creating infrastructure to make this fight sustainable, to actually getting on the ground, throwing down and winning with our folks.
So the original mission, and I just want to say it's Orleans Parish prison, they now call it the Orleans Justice Center, but it started obviously before then. So Orleans Parish Prison Reform Coalition, what was the original mission? Was it narrower than what you're doing now?
OPPRC, it really started in 2004. And there were a lot of, you know, lawyers who came together and people who wanted to figure out like, how do we support families of incarcerated people and incarcerated people on a path outside of litigation? So when OPPRC started, New Orleans had one of the most dangerous jails in the country. Like this isn't our first consent decree. And you know, we're creeping up on nine years with this consent decree, because it's one of the most horrendous jails in the country. It's not a great place; it's not a safe place; it's not a place where people want to go. So OPPRC initially started to address violence and conditions, and then there was a growing consciousness that a smaller jail is a safer jail, because fewer people are subject to the violence in that jail if fewer people are in there. Now you hear the "safer, smaller, more humane" slogan a lot more.
And how did you connect with PAC for Justice? It's very different kind of work, but related.
Yeah, great people work together. So a lot of the people who were involved with PAC for Justice, I worked with in some capacity with OPPRC. And with the sheriff's race, we definitely needed a body that was more free than a 501(c)(3) to move this work and messaging to support a progressive sheriff candidate. OPPRC, you know, we did that education work, we created a platform of what we wanted anyone running on a progressive platform to adopt. We created one pagers. We have the biggest forums in the city, like 100 people in person, 150 people watching live and hundreds of people watching after, because this is our thing. When it comes to jail conditions and jail size, we're hyper focused on this on the local level. And the 501(c)(3) is really limited. We can't really stand up and say, "Hey, this candidate is lying to you. We have this track record, this 17 years of offenses." But you know, the PAC was more liberated to really point out what the truth was and speak more boldly and audaciously about the history of the candidates.
And as I said, we connected on that campaign. PAC for Justice just played a role in electing a new sheriff in Orleans Parish, Susan Hutson, the first woman to be elected sheriff in New Orleans and the first black woman to be elected sheriff in Louisiana. Did you know her prior to the campaign?
Yeah, yeah. I worked with Susan in 2020. She was a part of this group with Court Watch NOLA and other groups. We worked together for a summons ordinance, so that, during the COVID 19 pandemic, when people were being stopped by the police, they would get a summons instead of being sent to jail for nonviolent municipal offences. Susan worked really well with us on that. Susan worked really well with us on the tear gas ban, and also stopping the NYPD checkpoints in Black neighborhoods. And her story was just compelling. You know, just how she got involved, or her personal story, which, you know, I won't try to tell it, because she tells it really well. But, with her grandfather being killed by a sheriff, you wouldn't think that someone with that story would commit their life to improving law enforcement entities. But that's her story. And that's so unique. So she gets the racial justice part of it. She also gets the transparency, the accountability, and the need for efficiency part of it. So with Susan running, I think... she's like a unicorn, right? Because sometimes you get people who are really competent, but the values don't align. And sometimes you get people who have amazing values. You can sit over coffee and talk about those things forever. But they don't know how to do the work. And I think with Susan, she has both. So New Orleans did a really great thing, by electing someone who's going to turn the page on the era of mass incarceration and treating people like animals. And that's important because we know that rehabilitative methods work better. If we look at the Norwegian prison system, there recidivism rate is about 20% compared to our 80%. And they adopt a public health model. They have an import model where they bring teachers from the community into the jail, where they bring doctors from the community into the jail. So there's not a substandard treatment of people in the jail thing happening. And when I visited those prisons years ago, I was just like, "Oh my gosh, the clinic in this prison looks better than some clinics I've seen in neighbor hoods," right? I'm rambling, but I say all of that to say, having a sheriff in the state of Louisiana, which is the incarceration capital of the world, to take this public health model into jail is going to be so transformational. And I hope that other parishes can follow this.
And she was working with you on the things you mentioned in her role as the independent police monitor for the city. Is that right?
Yes, she was working in her capacity as the police monitor. And another thing I forgot, when we were protesting outside of the federal court, we had a letter writing campaign for one week. 800 community members wrote to Federal Judge Lance Africk in a one week period, saying "We do not want this new jail, we do not want a psychiatric jail to be built. We don't want to cage our loved ones with mental illnesses. You can renovate this for constitutional care for whoever needs to be in there. But we want our tax dollars to go toward a community-based crisis center, so people don't have to go to jail for those resources." Susan, in her role as the police monitor, wrote to the judge saying how she opposed the jail expansion. And this was before she even thought about running for sheriff. So again, this is that values part where like, "Wow, she really gets it."
Who organized the letter writing, Sade?
That was OPPRC. At this time, the court was closed to the public. And so I said, we can't have hundreds of people walk in there and say, "Hey judge, this is wrong." So we had to find a way to get to the judge. I will say initially, we were emailing and snail mailing. And, you know, if you want to make a judge angry, fill up their email boxes. They weren't so happy with that. He said and put in a record, he received 800 letters from community members from New Orleans, saying they didn't want this expansion.
I think that's outstanding organizing. Were you involved with choosing Susan to run for the seat? Were you involved in that process?
Yeah, absolutely. So we knew that this year was coming. And to be frank, the community had been fighting Sheriff Marlin Gusman for years. One of the first things I did, as executive director of OPPRC was sue Marlin Gusman for illegally operating a temporary detention center in 2017. We had a press conference, and we said, "You can either stop illegally operating this jail in 90 days, or we are going to sue you." Of course, they didn't listen. So we sue. And from there, we've just been fighting and fighting, you know, the lack of transparency, the lack of accountability, the deaths, the stories we hear from members who are formerly incarcerated or their family members are in there. I just knew we needed change. And I was concerned that no one would run against him, because everyone thought he was untouchable, this 17 year incumbent, who has a lot of support from Black faith leaders, who has a tent program that a lot of community members use at their events, you know, the sheriff's office tents. I think a lot of people were afraid of running against him. So at the beginning of 2021, I convened a group of justice-minded people, and competent people. I always say this, because it's really important to find people who can actually perform the roles we want to vote them into, not just people who align with our values. And so we went through this process. I led this process where we looked at people who aligned with the values and people who were competent. And Susan was the one who stood out for the whole group. The funny thing is, when Susan first came to mind, I was like, "Oh my gosh, she is so honest, how could she be an elected official?" And I had to stop myself and say, "Wait, elected officials are supposed to be honest, they they're supposed to be good people." You can totally take that point out.
I think it's a great comment. I want to make the connection here that there was a lot of foundation laid by activists on the ground prior to this election. Because I think part of what we do on the Louisiana Lefty is try to get folks to understand that things do not happen overnight. The first three episodes we released were on Stacey Abrams and the decades of work and the money she put behind organizing Georgia. So I know part of what made this last campaign successful wasn't solely the months leading up to Election Day, but the years leading up to recruiting that candidate, and then the actual work to do just what you were talking about, recruit that candidate. So can you talk about your role in OPPRC in that light? Were you always kind of working towards knowing that your end goal - I mean, your mission isn't completed - but in this moment, your end goal, was it always to replace the sheriff?
No, absolutely not. In fact, when I first met Sheriff Gusman I thought he was really charming. And this was before I was with OPPRC. I thought he was really charming. And I said, "Wow, so many community members have trouble with him. Why don't they just talk to him? He's really easy to talk to." And then when I got really involved in the work, I realized that like, "No, he doesn't really listen to the community." One example of that is, because of the consent decree, he's required to have quarterly meetings to update the community on compliance with the consent decree. So you know, in this little COVID era, everyone else learned how to use Zoom. That office did not. So we went over a year without a meeting of the community knowing what's happening in the jail in consent decree compliance. And the first meeting we had was for him to announce that he was running. This was right before qualifying. Well, we never had another meeting for the rest of that year. So this is an example of just shutting the community out, and not letting the community know what's happening. There was also a situation last year where, on the day of his budget hearing, he delayed it. And I think it was an intentional tactic to delay it until after the election, maybe because of the request for more money. For years, we've been pointing out how poorly run the jail was. And it's not a personality competition. It's not a question of if someone means well. For four years, in his role in the last five years, there was a compliance director, who was appointed by the federal judge to run and operate the jail. And I don't know about everyone else. But if there was someone who had to come and run and operate OPPRC for four years, I don't think I would be in this job, right? Because it points to, I don't have the capacity, whatever that capacity is, to run this organization. And so you know, we see those person who I have to tell people, it's not it's not personal in terms of Gusman or not. The truth is people are dying in that jail. There have been over 60 deaths under his time as sheriff. So it's a life or death situation. The last time I toured the jail was 2019, and I remember seeing a trans woman in the pod with men. And a deputy said, "Well, if you're born a man, you're a man." With all of the stats of how trans folks are harmed more when they're housed according to their assigned gender, it's just it's like, "Okay, this elected official was so out of touch, and people are being harmed." So it was about harm reduction. And I don't think the end was replacing Gusman or, you know, having someone else elected. I think it's what was needed. And hopefully, this leads to not building a mental health jail, too, because at this point, the mayor has spoken against it. We rallied the city council to speak against it. The community has spoken against it. Gusman is the only elected official who's on the other side, who's not listening to the community. And if we're going to elect people into office, pay for their salaries, and have them running things, they need to listen to the community.
That's fair. So I did want to make that point because I want folks who are looking for things to change to think about that how long it actually takes and how, for instance, in your story, the change that you ended up making wasn't necessarily what you started out to do. That just came along the way. But you know, money is also a big part of this as we're organizing in this state for progress. And that's another thing I think we need more people who are trained in or who are prepared to do. I've been on fundraising calls with you, Sade, and you have some real chops in that arena? Do you have training in fundraising? Or does that come naturally to you?
I have zero training in fundraising. Ultimately, it's about finding people whose values align, and who have the capacity to give, and making the ask. A lot of people, you know, they had questions about, "Well, if someone donates to the PAC, is Susan Hudson required to listen to what they say?" No. I think it depends on what type of fundraising you do. Some people do fundraising in a way where it's quid pro quo. For us, it was very much, "Here are our values. This is what we're trying to do. If you believe New Orleans needs a sheriff with a public health model, and who's going to oppose caging people, because they have psychiatric disorders, this is where we need your money. This is how you can contribute to progress." And I always say, everyone has a different role to play in this fight. Some people are really busy, and the only thing they can do is write a check. That's great. The movement needs money. Some people, their best contribution is baking cookies. That's great. We need cookies when we're protesting. Some people are artists, right? And we know that art has been used to start conversations about conditions and to challenge the world that we live in. So there's not a single thing that that someone has that cannot be used for the movement. We had a sleep-out in front of City Hall in 2019. It was 40 degree weather. Of course, I do not know how to pitch a tent. I'm not breaking my nails. I'm not like messing up my eyelashes. That's just me. But there are members who are really good with things like that, right? So they pitched the tents, and we were warm that night. And so anything and everything, any gift you have any talent you have can be used for the movement. But it's so important to source the movement, even through grassroots fundraising. $10 here, $10 there... Our fights in 2020, we won so many campaigns, and our OPPRC community was to thank for that. Because there were about $40,000 from community members, just throwing in money to support. And a reason that's important is because sometimes foundations have limitations on what they fund. So it's important for people as individuals to donate to causes that they believe in, because there are some rowdy groups like us, you know, who won't allow our work to be dictated. We definitely want to be led by people on the ground.
I love that whole message. The other thing I found that you excel at, was speaking to the press and there were a couple of times that I spoke to you in advance of interviews, thinking I was going to help you prep for those, and then you'd start speaking and I think, "Oh yes, she's got this." That's better than anything I could tell her to say. And part of that has got to be natural talent on your part. But also I believe that's in your preparation. You know your material inside and out. Do I have that right? Is that really what you think prepares you for those interviews?
I think that's what prepares me. Honestly, I was a really shy person before starting with OPPRC. We used to meet at Hope House with Brother Don Everard. He's like one of the founding members. And I remember driving to the meetings to practice, "Hi, my name is Sade. Thank you for coming this evening." That's how shy I was. That's how much social anxiety I had. But I knew the material really well. So it took me years to feel comfortable just speaking. I think public speaking is something that people fear a lot. And I just had to do it scared. I had to say, "Okay, this is scary, but it has to happen. Because if you don't do this thing, people on the ground will suffer. People in the jail will suffer." I'm comfortable with it now, but if you saw me five years ago, you would be horrified at how I practiced my name in the car.
Oh, that's awesome, though. I love that. I love that. Do it scared.
Yeah, do it scared. People are depending on our courage. Our community depends on our courage.
And then the other thing I saw, you had actual attack ads directed at you during that campaign that we just were involved in. And you stayed very poised through that. And I think that was another moment where you really modeled the behavior of the courage that you need to do the work. So I really appreciated that. Did that surprise you that you were part of those attack ads?
Absolutely. You know, I'm like, I'm just a community member trying to do the best that I could do. I am not running for office. The weirdest thing is they chopped and screwed my words, but this was something that was recorded from just a regular meeting, it wasn't a press call. So just the thought of someone has been recording me for years, because this was at least a year before the race, and the conversation had nothing to do with the sheriff. So it just, you know, people are always watching. And that's the world we live in now, I guess.
That's true. Sade, I wanted to talk to you a bit about crime being on the upswing. That's happening where you and I live. It's happening across the state, across the country. I see elected officials - nationwide - lashing out at each other and trying to blame each other, trying to blame criminal justice reform. I think a lot of that is politics. But there's no doubt that folks are feeling extra vulnerable. And I don't fault people for that. But I also hear, even from liberal people right now, some parroting of right wing and "law and order" talking points. That concerns me for the movement. It concerns me for making progress in one of the few areas I see where we're actually making good progress in Louisiana. So I did want to get your thoughts on this. But I want to preface this by saying that I keep telling people, we're in a difficult situation and these are difficult days. But in Louisiana, we've had centuries of inequity. In New Orleans, we've had decades of ineffective means to address the plight of young people here. And across the country, the pandemic has exacerbated issues of poverty, health and how we interact with one another. So we're just in precarious times in many respects. But do you have a concern, like I do, that there may be a backlash to the movement in response to this heightened crime?
Absolutely. I've seen on like, Instagram, people say we need to bring the National Guard to New Orleans and I'm like, "Why would we do that?" Yes, crime is spiking in New Orleans. It's been spiking across the country due to the pandemic. And if we get to the root cause of things, poverty is real, lack of resources for our youth, that's a real thing. I remember growing up, I always had an after school program to go to, and I always had a NORD summer camp to go to in my neighborhood. Our kids don't have those same opportunities. And so that opens the door for many other things. Nick Chirastil from the Lens tweeted something saying New Orleans city council members are thanking NOPD for arresting an 18 year old, while criticizing the Office of Youth and Families for not doing more to provide services. Worth noting: last year NOPD's budget was 180 million. Office of Youth and Family was 2 million. And so we're investing in reactive measures, instead of preventative measures and being proactive and helping our community members survive and thrive. And then there's the blame game. I'm actually really sick of seeing the infighting from elected officials. Our lives are not your political talking points. We know that you may have better conditions, more resources than the averageNew Orleanian, but I don't want to see you fight. I don't care to see you fight. I want to see you pass a budget that actually reflects the needs of our community. I'm really disgusted by crime being used as something that people are campaigning on, as opposed to offering real solutions. I also think this is the time for grassroots organizations to share data. So let New Orleanians know that it's not just us, which does not mean that it's okay, but it does make it feel less personal. Because it's happening nationally. And also putting out stats and data around when you invest in affordable housing, you decrease crime; when you invest in education, you decrease crime. It's time for us to start playing the long game. We know that an investment in early childhood education is really great. Now, we may not realize the fruit of those investments for 20 years, but we have to start doing something. We can't keep spending money the same way. You know, like, I really love cookies, right? I can't keep eating cookies and expect to get back to my old sundress size, right? And so we have to do something different if we want something different. I think that applies for every level of government, and applies to how we vote. It applies to how we organize, and it applies to how we pressure our elected officials to create a budget that meets the needs of New Orleans.
That's fair. I heard so many complaints against the DA now, and, look, I can't sort all of that out. I need to dig further into the data. It really just started to hit me from all these different news stories. But I've heard so many complaints that, you know, the uptick in crime is an issue with the DA. And yet ironically, it wasn't so long ago, we had folks complaining that he was breaking his promise to not charge young people as adults. So there's got to be some kind of middle ground in this tug of war. And again, I think a lot of this is very much political. I I just hear people parroting some of those right wing talking points. Some of the things that I've heard people from the left say to me have come straight from an article from the Hayride. And I'm sure they didn't read the Hayride, but the person who gave them that information or someone somewhere along the way got it from there. Do you have any thoughts on how we reconcile this tug of war between people blaming Criminal Justice Reform or progressive officials, on the one hand, and then on the other hand, they're not progressive enough, they're not doing enough reform, there's not abolition involved. Are there any thoughts from you on how we can reconcile that?
Yeah, I think step one is realizing we didn't get here overnight. Even when I think about the work of OPPRC, to know that there were over 6500 people in our local jail. And now we have about 850. That's progress that took years: 2004 to 2022. It took years to get here. Right before the pandemic, there was data showing that was the lowest our jail population had been since the '70s, and it was the lowest our crime rate has been. So we have to come to terms with there's no such thing as incarcerating your way out of safety. Because when people go to jail, they are barred from opportunities. Think about a 17 year old who's smoking pot and charged as an adult, right? That person can no longer get student grants, they can no longer qualify for that. So this person who did this thing that wasn't a risk to public safety, now can't go to college, which bars them from opportunities for higher paying job and for a better life. And so we have to really, you know, first look at the the history of the work that has been done before us, and how we got here. And, you know, I don't want to say be patient, because I do think it deserves some urgency, but we have to be willing to try something different. I feel this way about both sides. We have to realize that our elected officials are supposed to respond in a way of the best interest for the majority. And so if we want to take a different approach, it's our job on this side to start educating people on what the data really says. And the data really says that other programs are a lot more effective than incarceration.
What's next for you, Sade?
I don't know. I take things day by day, moment by moment. You know, frankly, I never planned to do this work. I didn't know what a community organizer was before coming to OPPRC. I just know what I want to see in this city is more Black people from New Orleans in leadership roles, for neighborhood associations, for grassroots organizing. I want to see us included in those conversations and leading a lot of those conversations. I want to see us in the mix. You know, a lot of times we talk about shaping New Orleans. And I'm like, "How many of y'all have gone to my old neighborhood like the Lower Ninth Ward? How many have gone to New Orleans East?" So I don't know exactly what my next step is. But I know that I will be doing this with Black native New Orleanians, who are still impacted by these systems the most and left out of conversations. And, you know, as I transition out of my role at OPPRC, I'm still going to uphold this work. And I'm still going to be involved in criminal legal system reform, because it's personal. A lot of us do this work, because if we don't, our brothers, our uncle's, our cousins, and all of the people who love will be in jail, because of an unjust legal system.
Would you consider running for office yourself?
Absolutely not. We've had this conversation before. But I look forward to helping other people run for office. I really want to see what it looks like to create a New Orleans that puts people first. And we can do that through all branches. We could do that with the criminal legal system, the city council, the school system. Everything is interconnected. So it doesn't matter where we're working on these progressive reforms. It just matters that we're doing it. And it's going to have a ripple effect from one system to the next.
So you're still involved with OPPRC. Is there way for people to plug into that if they're interested in knowing more?
Absolutely. We are on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram at OPPRC NOLA, and the website: opprcnola.org. OPPRC meets every second Monday of the month.
Well, very good. I'll post links in the Episode Notes for folks. And is that something that would be of benefit to people outside of Orleans Parish or is that pretty locally hyper-focused?
OPPRC is locally hyper-focused. But I think when something is effective, it can be replicated in other ways. So a few years ago, the East Baton Rouge Prison Reform Coalition started. They're doing great work in East Baton Rouge. And there's also groups like the Sunflower Initiative emerging in St. Tammany Parish. So I always find that the problems we're experiencing in our neighborhoods are happening in other neighborhoods. Although some of the landscape may be different, we can connect with organizers across the country, across the state, across parish lines and learn what's effective for them. We take what works, we throw out what doesn't apply for our localities, and we fight in solidarity for a better society for everyone.
So if someone contacted you from elsewhere in the state, you might be able to plug them in to what's happening there?
Absolutely. A lot of people like to say New Orleans is progressive. I don't fully agree with that. I think we're faux-progressive, and we are in red Louisiana. And so you know, I have friends from Oakland and Portland and we have conversations of, "That's really nice that that worked there, we are here," which doesn't mean that Louisiana can't have these great things. But it means organizers on the ground have to use different tactics and strategies, because our landscape is very different.
I agree with you and faux-progressive is one way to put it. I always think we're struggling to be progressive, or we maybe would have the potential to be progressive, we just haven't managed to succeed at it yet.
I think it's the education too, though. Again, I'm someone who's directly impacted, nd I thought everything was a mistake. I thought people just kept making mistakes, so folks kept ending up in jail. And then I saw the numbers. I think we also have to make things accessible to people. Abolition is a trendy word. It's been really trending since 2020. And I've been saying this new age abolition is actually not helpful, because it alienates some people who don't even know what abolition is. So someone may feel like, okay, this is crazy to say we don't want the police for this. But if you go to that same person, and give that picture of how over 80% of people in a jail have a psychiatric or substance abuse disorder, and you have a conversation and say, "Do you think the social worker should respond or the police? Do you think a clinician a peer support specialist or the police?" and that person says, "Oh, well, they need mental health resources not to be arrested, so not the cops," you just got someone invested in a pathway to create alternatives to arrest and incarceration. But when we use really big words, we also have to think about the literacy rate in Louisiana. So I try my best not to write anything over a seventh grade reading level. In the same way that I came to this work, I didn't know what abolition was, I didn't know what a community organizer was, and I'm a Tulane University graduate. Some other people don't know what these things are, too. And so if we want to change the landscape, we have to be willing to take a step back and meet people where they are. And we have to also be honest about the fact that there are people in jail struggling right now. And we cannot work on breaking down these systems while forgetting conditions of people who are in the system. Black people in jail right now are not sacrificial lambs. We have to do both simultaneously.
Well, I'm glad you said that, because I was about to pivot to the last three questions, and I was going to ask you about Criminal Justice Reform. And I wanted to make sure that it was okay to ask you in that terminology. Because I know that abolition terminology is out there also. So I guess it's okay for me to talk to you about Criminal Justice Reform?
Absolutely. I personally see it under the same umbrella. There are different types of reform. There's reformist reforms, abolitionist reforms... I think the question that we have to ask ourselves is, "Is this breaking down a system that funnels people into the prison industrial complex?" If the answer is "Yes, this system is being broken down," go full force with it.
Okay, well, what do you see as the biggest obstacle to Criminal Justice Reform in Louisiana?
I think the division of the argument of reform or abolition. Because when I came to this work, my political views were not this. It took a lot of developing for me to be where I am right now. It really took OPPRC members teaching me, caring about me, loving up on me, showing me the data, because I will argue anyone down if they don't have a number to back up whatever point they're proving. And my analysis grew. So if we are throwing people out because they are not where we want them to be as soon as they walk through the door, we're losing the opportunity to gain people who can help us educate others and organize. And a lot of times when you're educating one person, it's not that one person. That person's teaching their whole family. So we have to start meeting people where they are. And sometimes that's not a monthly meeting. Sometimes that's connecting with people, one on one in other areas. Sometimes that's letting people contribute to the movement in other ways. Like I said, if baking cookies is your thing, bake cookies for the movement, make lunch for the meetings. We use a lot of jargon, and it can be alienating for people who don't know what that is. And it can also be scary and intimidating. So the best thing we could do is meet people where they are. A lot of times were saying the same things, we're just using different language. And we have to really see people's intent and see where it matches and go from there.
And what do you see as the biggest opportunity for Criminal Justice Reform?
I think the biggest opportunity, oh my gosh, we live in the information age. I mean, it's too much information. So it's hard to funnel out what's actually important at times. But we have the numbers; we have the qualitative and quantitative data; we have so many means to get it out through social media, door knocking... I think the pandemic created a time for people to sit down at home, and just read and learn more and become involved. So I think that kind of worked out in favor of some organizers. But the biggest opportunity is really us showing people how this impacts everyone. We have a pothole problem in New Orleans, right? So maybe someone doesn't care about not building a jail for the righteous reasons, or what we may consider as a righteous reason, but maybe they're saying, "Yeah, I don't think we should spend 54 million on this when my street hasn't been repaired in 10 years." And so I think we have the opportunity to speak the language of people and bring them into the movement where they are. A lot of people may think that that's like watering things down. But I just think it's so important to understand people's experiences. It's different. We come to the work in different ways. We are all valuable, and we can all contribute to the movement.
Sade, who's your favorite superhero?
Anyone who knows me knows that I love Wendy Williams on a really hard day, after the end of the day, it cheers me up. I don't know if I would consider her a superhero. But I see so many women just killing it, like you, Andrea Armstrong, Ashley Shelton, just like women in this work, changing the landscape. I can't pick one.
Why don't you just say women, women in this work? I think that's a really great answer.
Women in this work. Yes, yes, we are breaking all type of ceilings. We are doing the thing.
I love that. I love that. Well, Sade, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me today. I really appreciate your coming on and sharing all your valuable insights. And I appreciate all the work you're doing in our state.
Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.
Thank you for listening to Louisiana Lefty. Please follow us on your favorite podcast platform. Thank you to Ben Collinsworth for producing Louisiana Lefty Jen Pack of Black Cat Studios for our Super Lefty artwork, and Thousand $ Car, for allowing us to use their swamp pop classic "Security Guard" as our Louisiana Lefty theme song.
