Seth, hi everyone. This is Seth stern at Freedom of the Press Foundation, let's just wait another minute or two for more people to join, the space just went live, and then we will get started. Thanks to everyone who's already here for joining you.
Okay, well, we can get started with intros as people sort of file in here. And, of course, the x space will be available afterwards for folks who aren't able to listen live. That's that's not a problem. You can always listen later. We will make sure to promote it and and make it as widely available as we can. Anyway, we are here to talk about press freedom in Indian Country, indigenous media and the award winning film, bad press. And with us today, we have both folks who are involved in the film and advocates for press freedom on on tribal land who will introduce themselves shortly. Let me just briefly introduce myself. I'm Seth Stern. I'm the advocate director at Freedom of the Press Foundation. We are a nonprofit organization that advances press freedom in a number of ways through our advocacy efforts, which which I help out with, through the US press freedom tracker, which is a database that reports and documents press freedom violations across the country, ranging from assaults, arrests of reporters to subpoenas to damage damage and seizure of journalist equipment. We operate tools like securedrap and danger zone that help journalists communicate with sources safely and confidentially. We conduct digital security trainings for journalists around the country and some other things that hopefully are doing some good in the uphill battle for press freedom. We've got three guests with us today to speak. Let me allow them to introduce themselves and talk a little bit about what they do, and maybe if you could each briefly identify what you see as the most significant challenge faced by journalists attempting to report on Indian Country. Angel, do you want to go first?
Yeah. My name is Angel Ellis. I am the director of Muskogee media, which is an independent media outlet that is owned by the Muskogee Creek Nation, our citizens recently in a very contentious election. You know, four years ago, our citizens voted on a constitutional ballot referendum to protect press freedom in our tribal Constitution. It was pretty significant, and the way we've been. Reporting since has been dramatically different than the way we've we were reporting before. I've done a few cool projects and been able to be a mentor with NBC original voices. I was the subject, or we don't use that word anymore, sorry, the protagonist of bad press which kind of followed that advocacy work for constitutional press protection, and I've won some Elias Buno awards, things like that. And I think the most significant challenge for indigenous press freedom right now in the landscape is really access to to information and having the safe space to advocate for good press freedom policy, because there there's not a lot of constitutionally enshrined protections in the Indian country. So it's an emerging concept, and I'm happy to say that reporting on indigenous issues is not emerging, but protecting it by policy is and so, you know, we have a lot of unique challenges, but we're working through them.
Thanks, Angel. We've also got Rebecca Lansbury Baker with us. Rebecca, do you want to introduce yourself and talk about what you see as a particularly difficult challenge for journalists reporting on Indian country. I don't want to say top challenge, just in case your top one is the same as angels, but
I definitely, you know, I think all three of us, Jody Angel and I like being, you know, so plugged into the media landscape here in Indian country, you know, we've all faced our own, you know, unique challenges to press freedoms and have those, like, personal experiences to share. So I'm really happy to be part of this conversation. But yes, I am Rebecca Lansbury Baker, one of the CO directors and a producer on bad press, the award winning documentary film. And as Angel mentioned, she was one of our protagonists. And you know, in making this film, one of the things I wanted to do, I'm also the full time, my full time gig, I guess, is the executive director of the indigenous Journalists Association now, and you know, I've been with the organization for now more than 11 years. And you know, we see it happen all the time in the indigenous communities that the tribally funded media outlets, you know, just get shut down because they're doing coverage that doesn't necessarily, you know, suit the the wants of the Tribal Administration. And so we had seen that happen, you know. And it happened to me in my experience as being a former tribal media editor, and I actually worked with Angel in the what was then the Muscogee nation news, before I came to Naja, and now IJA and so, you know, and I know Jodi also has her her own, you know, stories and experiences to share with that. But all three of us, that's something that we, you know, share in common is, you know, those challenges to, you know, just reporting on the government and what that looks like in indigenous communities can be so different from, you know what that looks like in the mainstream media. And that's why, you know, I think having an organization like IJA that's dedicated to, you know, addressing this and providing, you know, space for you know the nuances of covering your own community, you know what that can look like. So I obviously had worked with our journalists in the film in bad press. So Angel, of course, Sterling Cosper, Jared Moore, Jason Salzman, and you know, I wanted to be sure that the journalist side of the story was told when the repeal happened, you know, in the lead up to an election. So that's really where bad press, you know, begins. And I wanted to make sure that, like, somehow, this journalist side of the story was going to be told. And again, we'd seen it happen in Indian country many times, that this just gets swept under the rug. And so I had no idea was going to take us four years, and some change to, you know, follow the story, but I'm happy that, you know, it had the ending that it did, and the citizens were really the ones to exercise that tribal sovereignty. And so I'll, I'll pause there, but also just mentioning that I am also a Muskogee Creek Nation citizen, so I have skin in the game as a citizen, as a voter. And so, you know, this was a an issue that was not only important to me, personally and professionally, but also, you know, I knew to our community who was outraged when Free Press was repealed. So I'll pause there as my my intro before i. Yeah, I get into it, but yeah, I think all as far as challenges go, this is always, you know, having the freedom to report on your government accurately and fairly and with all the resources. I think that's an important point, too, whether those be, you know, financial or, you know, human resources, like, whatever you know, it takes to follow these stories and do the kind of coverage that's required to, you know, make sure that we're accurately covering our indigenous communities. It takes an investment of time and, you know, all of those resources, so that is always going to be, I think, a challenge for us so but yeah, very excited to join uh, Angel and Jody on this call too, because, again, they have such unique perspectives, actually being boots on the ground, working in those in indigenous newsrooms as leaders.
Thanks so much, Becca, and we've also got Jody raves about to bear with us today. Jody, if you could introduce yourself, talk a bit about your your background and what you see as the foremost challenge facing journalists covering Indian country these days.
Sure. Good afternoon, everyone. My name is Jodi rave spanabear. I am the founder and the director of the indigenous media freedom Alliance, we're developing our membership model right now. And within the indigenous media freedom Alliance, we have a news website, online, website called buffaloes, fire.com, and I've been a worked in the mainstream prep. I started off working for the tribal press on my reservation here in North Dakota, and then went to the mainstream press as a daily newspaper reporter for 15 years, and then returned back to North Dakota, where I served as a director for our tribal radio station and our tribal newspaper, and from that experience, was motivated to start the nonprofit, the indigenous Media Freedom Alliance, specifically because of the lack of information I think we're hearing. And a theme here among the speakers that for the pressing issues facing Native journalists specifically, or I would say anyone trying to report on Native issues, is a lack of freedom of information laws, lack of Sunshine laws, lack of overall open meeting laws, there's just no clear cut path to go into any of our tribal communities and accurately report on issues that could really raise the quality of life for our people. And my argument is that because of this lack of information media in Indian country that you do wrong of the economic ladder, the health indicators, social indicators, that show that, you know, people are living their best life, And that is not happening in Indian country. And well, we can get into more details, but that's again, a theme here we're seeing is our hearing is just a lack of open records and freedom of information within our specific tribal communities. Thank you.
Thanks so much, Jodi. And I think the I want to lead with a question about something that I'm sure some who listen to this don't fully understand, and I'm not sure I fully understand, but I want to talk about the legal landscape governing journalists reporting on tribal lands in theory, as I understand it, tribal government is bound by the First Amendment, but it doesn't quite work that way in practice. And I'm also not entirely sure I understand what goes to a tribal court. What goes to a US District Court? So can you, can you talk a bit about just the general legal landscape with the understanding they call or not lawyers, as far as I know, but the interplay between the Constitution, state law, and tribal
I guess, I guess it's helpful to understand. And yeah, I'm not a legal expert, but just a person who ran the Justice beat for my publication for many years. And so you find yourself reading a lot of law that's really boring, but what it really amounts to is that people have a hard time understanding the relationship between these sovereign entities, right? So I am a citizen of the Muscogee Nation. I'm also an American citizen, and I'm a citizen who resides in the state of Oklahoma. I'm all these things at the same time, and these laws do apply to me in a layered way. And so what we need to understand that, when we talk about tribal sovereignty, for example, this is a treaty law that establishes one Sovereign's relationship to another recognized sovereign. So this is very high law. This is like the upper echelon of law. It's, it's the United States Government entering into contract with another sovereign. And so when we talk about, you know, these layers of law and constitution and how these interplay, it's important to kind of know that it's filtered through all three of these realms. And then there are specific laws that are kind of supplemented into law in order to kind of reinforce that tribal sovereignty. You know, for example, like once you have established that the tribal nations are sovereigns, well, there was a period of history where they still didn't allow us to be citizens of the United States, and then, you know, there's supplemental laws that apply. And so it can be really tricky, unless you understand that all those things kind of fit together. And when you talk about the interplay between constitutional law, so tribes have their own constitutions as well as a sovereign and so, and that's what people see, if they've watched bad press, is they've watched the citizens of the Muscogee nation change the constitutional law of a sovereign nation. It's like, imagine being one of the Hamilton's, you know, like in the in Hamilton, and you've, you know, formed these high doctrines of law for your country, basically. And that's what it's like when you when you fit in. How does the tribe fit into law? And then there's certain US law that statutes and that apply to tribal nations when you get into like, criminal jurisdiction, for example, you know the tribes have a right to police their their jurisdiction and and they do that in conjunction with the US government. And guess who doesn't really have a say? So the state, their state police, don't really have a lot of Investigatory Powers on a tribal reservation, for example, but the tribal legal people do, and then the US Federal people do. So that's kind of my short, long answer for that one
understood before I have a follow up. Jodi Becca, anything you would like to
add? Yeah, I I'd say This is Jodi. And I think the the important thing to understand here is, yes, as a US citizen, you know, if I'm in Bismarck, North Dakota, which is off the reservation, I am, you know, First Amendment applies to me. But when you move on to the reservation level, then all that you you have to remember that of 574 federally recognized tribes, they do, each have their own constitution and their laws take precedence, you know, the majority of the time, unless you get into major crimes. But let me just, you know, give a real world example that just happened, you know, two days ago, our organization, our newsroom, Buffalo's fire, is part of the national documentaries network. We're the first indigenous led newsroom of the documenters network, and we're the first rural cohort of the documenters network. And one of our proposals upon, you know, becoming part of the documenters was, you know, let us go into tribal communities and report on tribal council meetings, as opposed to just city county level meetings in the Bismarck Mandan area, and that was something that they agreed to. So we did everything we thought that was necessary in going to the Standing Rock Reservation, which is just about an hour south of. Bismarck, and we knew we're entering as an independent operation newsroom. We're entering into sovereign territory. So unlike any other meeting, probably around the country, whether I live here in Bismarck, if I want to go to Cleveland, Ohio and be a reporter at a city, county meeting or something of that level. I normally don't have to get permission to do that. And so we knew when we went to Standing Rock that, you know, we're going to have to reach out to the tribal council and let them know that we will be working, not just independently, but with the Teton times, which is a local independent newspaper on Standing Rock, but also working with a with a video sound production company that is also based in Standing Rock. So you know, we, we followed the proper protocols and worked with local people to go into the tribal council meeting and record and document the first meeting. What we did differently was the council was not used to video cameras in there, and we did get the okay from the tribal Chairwoman that video would be all right, but unfortunately, she was not not present. But they have every right just to tell us, until we get further clarification, an MOU and you know, there will be no further recording of our of our meetings. So we actually had a pack up and and leave. So I think that's what people have to understand, is, yes, even though I have first amendment rights, that doesn't necessarily apply, you know, to open meeting laws, it doesn't apply to open meeting laws. Those laws just really aren't in existence in the majority of tribal communities. Thank you. Thanks,
Jodi. And maybe it would be helpful to try to think about this in terms of a scenario like a scenario that people who are not accustomed to the legal landscape in Indian country can relate to. So you're a journalist reporting on tribal land about a tribe that does not protect press freedom in its own constitution you want, let's say to avail yourself of the protections of the United States Constitution. Let's say you're retaliated against by the tribal government for critical reporting and you want to do something about it. One is that something you would do, or would that sort of be bad form to take community business into US District Court and and to you know, what would your recourse be? Could you go to US District Court? It could. Could you would it be a state court issue? What would you do?
I think that, Well, the short answer is, can it be done? Can I? Can I appeal to the federal government as a as an American citizen, say that this tribe has violated my rights? Yes, it can be done, but you will be a pariah in your own community. Culturally speaking, you're going to be the person who has brought federal suit against your family, basically, right, like, that's kind of the feeling on the ground of being a tribal citizen is this is your extended family, and now you're suing them in federal court when we were advocating for press freedom in the film bad press. If you notice that every vote, and you know, every vote meeting you see is taking place on the tribe. That's where we kept the conversation, because I don't think that I want to appeal to this patriarchal entity to recognize my rights as an individual when this is a community conversation. And so what we did, instead of that, was we appealed to the community, and we empowered our our media outreach to the point that our citizens were taking this conversation and they were holding the electorate, you know, to to address this issue. Every time an elected official of our tribe came to a community meeting to campaign. They were asked about press freedom, and they couldn't ignore it. And so I think that when you talk about really advocating for good policy in Indian country, it kind of starts and stays in the tribe. One example. I can give you, too, is, this was another appear of mine, colleague, Lori Edmo, was, was trying to report, and her, her tribe was trying to shut down that reporting. Well, Lori defended the tribal, you know, press freedom code. I actually, I think at the time, they didn't have press freedom code. She defended her rights under the Indian Civil Rights Act in tribal District Court instead of appealing outside. And she was successful in advocating for the press freedom through the Indian Civil Rights Act, which the tribe did recognize. So you have to start there. And if you do go and appeal outside of your tribal district courts into, say, state court. Well, state doesn't have jurisdiction over federal so they just kick it out. Tribes can sovereign immune. Out of some of these cases, we have seen cases climb through the circuit courts about the tribe. One example more recently was a Friedman case that made it to 10th circuit DC court. And what happened there? The judge kicked it down and said, You have not exhausted tribal remedy yet, and so you must start at the tribe and ask the tribe this question first, and then you have so. So even if you do want to appeal outside the tribe, you have to bring the question in the tribe, in the tribal courts first, or if you're going to have any traction for us appealing outside of the tribe. Didn't feel like the proper way to do it. It seems like an internal issue. When we talk about self governance, that's really what it means, is to really work within ourselves. And so that's kind of the way we had it. We had a lot of success by doing it that way, I think,
yeah, and this is Jodi, and I can remind everybody that every tribe is different. So the way angels, tribe, the Osage, govern itself, is very different than the legal system on other reservations around the country. So with my tribe, the Constitution specifically states that the tribal council has control over the judiciary. So what does that sound like to you who's controlling our judiciary? They might want to say they're independent, but when the tribal constitution says tribal council has control over them, then you can imagine where that would lead. So in our tribe, nobody has ever led a successful referendum vote, kind of like they did at Osage. It has never happened at Fort Berthold, because our legal system has too many roadblocks. So we don't have a cookie cutter textbook legal system that lets you go from point A to point B to point C to point D. It just doesn't happen. And so in that case, we have had many, many, many, many tribal members that do file outside of the outside of tribal court because they have exhausted their tribal remedies, or they just know that they're they're not going to get any tribal remedy in their favor if your judiciary is influenced by elected tribal council leaders, and so we have people going into federal to District Court, you know, in North Dakota. But oftentimes, then sometimes those cases will get accepted. But as Angel did say, that the kind of standard responses that you have to take care of this, you know, in tribal court, but in our people's cases that they don't really ever stand a chance in tribal court. And just to further solidify what I'm saying, I did go to tribal court to hear a hearing of tribal citizens that I think they did go to federal court, and they said, Sorry, wrong jurisdiction kicked it back to tribal court, and so they had to exhaust their remedies, and that group of citizens was protesting that the tribal council was not allowing them to exercise their tribal constitutional rights to a referendum vote, or even to, you know, being informed on how you know, the tribe is spending hundreds of millions of dollars. It's why they were in in court, and the tribe intervened in that particular case and said, you know. We would like to have this case dismissed. And so a lot of people were actually in tribal court that day, waiting to hear from from the judge, or presenting arguments on why this, why the tribal constitution needed to be upheld, and to show that the tribal council was abusing it. And you know it. The ruling that came out of that was the judge, surprisingly, did mention that constitutional language that said this, the tribal council is in control of them. And the judge said, I don't know why it says that, but in the end, he did rule that he would not dismiss the tribe's suit. So that was a big turn of events for people, but that judge has still not ruled on you know, if the tribe is going to have to uphold its constitution or not? So people are waiting on that. So just again, every tribe is very different.
Thanks so much. And I've got to resist the impulse to keep asking questions all day. I do find interesting. But there's other stuff we want to cover. Angel I wanted to sort of move from the legal to the cultural issues, which you've already touched on, and I thought a good way to bring this up is by using a conversation we had a while ago as an example. There was a journalist who was concerned that he would be seen as giving up his objectivity, because on the way to cover a rally or a protest, he helped an older protester carry their stuff, possibly including protest signs. I'm not sure about that, and you know when he did so he wasn't thinking about objectivity. He was thinking about helping an elder, which is hopefully a value that all of society would share. But that being said, a journalist from CNN probably would not help an older person carry protest signs precisely because they want to maintain their objectivity. So I'm hoping you can talk a bit more about that dynamic and about how these sort of contemporary American journalistic norms that a lot of people here just assume are universal when they're really not fit the realities of indigenous cultures.
Oh my gosh, this is, like a fascinating topic, and like in the instance we were talking about, the journalist was going to cover a protest, and he saw an elder. And it's important to understand that in the indigenous community, there are a lot of times that our protests are incredibly like wholesome, peaceful community events where our children come and, you know, they might have a drum, and people will sing songs, and they can be very family oriented. And so this journalist spots an elder who's carrying some folding chairs they're doing, like a sit in kind of thing, and he offers to carry this chair for this elder. Like, I mean, that's like, so like, such a common native thing like that. You just look out for and take care of your elders, and you help people. But the mainstream society's view of this, especially the mainstream law enforcement. Like, who the mainstream? You know, county, city law enforcement responded to this protest and actually charged the journalist with participating in the protest, which he was not. He simply carries a heavy chair for an elder, and sets it down, and then he commences, you know, behind his camera, taking notes and doing his thing. And that's just strikes me as something that would really not happen if tribal Light Horse or the tribal law enforcement of you know, were the ones responding like that that's so common to us, and other instances are applicable here too. Like, I think that many journalists in the mainstream journalism world would never, you know, like they might attend a meeting and they would cover it, but they wouldn't sit and have the meal with the people you know, whereas we do, it's like really rude not to in our community, if you're if you're coming to the meeting and there's food, you better sit and eat, or else you're pretty snobby. These are just ways that we bond with our community, and we do that in these settings and and it helps kind of enforce that relationship of, hey, I'm a journalist, and I work for you to tell your story and so, but these things are viewed in the mainstream world as you know, a little, you know, not the normal I can I've worked in mainstream journalism and, you know, it's been a situation like, you know, similar. And they're like, Oh, you're just all. Up in here, I didn't even realize you were the journalist. Well, I am, but I'm also a community participant. And for me, the relationship between myself and the community, and building that relationship is one of the empirical needs that we face, too. We have to build these relationships in order to do our jobs, and so I feel like that's very common in the indigenous community, whereas it's not in the mainstream world. I won't accuse every main mainstream journalist of parachute reporting, but a lot of people just come into a community, take some notes, take some names, and bounce the fuck out, and that's just what the way it is. I Yeah,
thanks, Angel. If anyone else wants to add any observations about those dynamics, I see Becca, you took yourself off
mute. Yeah. I love when this question of objectivity, you know, comes up, because I think it's such an old school journalistic like education, way of thinking, and I feel like we're moving into this, like, new era where being a part of that community that you're covering that doesn't make you ineffective as a journalist, like that doesn't make you, You know, non objective as a storyteller that actually like being part of that community that you're reporting on, like that actually strengthens your reporting and makes it better. You're able to do more nuanced coverage if you're a part of that community, because you know the tribal citizens, you know that your work is impacting. You know the stories, you know the history, you know the culture, and so, you know, I think that you know from i j, A's perspective, and this is also just, you know, personal, you know, opinion. And something we wanted to showcase in bad press, as in the documentary too, is that, you know, there's certainly room for outsiders to tell Indigenous stories and tell them well, but as I mentioned earlier, it takes a lot of resources, you know, to do that, and there's no one that is better prepared and able to tell our stories than we are as indigenous people, because we have that background and because we have, as Angel, you know, touched on that accountability to those communities. And so outside media doesn't have that accountability. They're accountable to their, you know, their outlets, but we as tribal citizens, we're accountable to our fellow tribal citizens. And, you know, I think that care is something that's so, so important in doing work in indigenous communities, and again, not parachuting in, but taking the time and spending the resources that it requires to build that trust of indigenous communities who have been burned so many, many times by, you know, outsiders and outside media. And you know sometimes that even, you know, it takes a lot of time to, even if you're from the trouble media outlet itself, to to build that trust with people. So I think literally sitting across the table from, you know, folks at events like that, being a part of the community, that's really important. And I found that as a filmmaker too, like I was obviously, you know, a part of the community as a citizen. I People knew me from having worked at the newspaper, at Mugi media, but still like trying to get folks, you know, to go on camera, to talk, you know, for the documentary, it still, you know, can be challenging. And there were, you know, friends in the newsroom that I had that didn't want to sit down and do an interview until, you know, six months later, because you have to build that trust and let people know that you're not just going to parachute in because we've been burned so many times. So that trust is so, so important to our communities, and I think it's really central to doing impactful, meaningful work when it comes to our reporting.
Thanks, sorry, go Jody. Go ahead.
Yeah, I can be really brief. So the indigenous media freedom Alliance and the trust project, we were working on some research and from the readers that we surveyed there, there's a real strong pensions for trusting news more when it is written by a native journalist, and that just kind of goes to everything that Angel and Rebecca were saying is that, you know if, if you're going to be reporting on local news, then you really, it's, it's pretty important that you're also a part of the community. Then, because. That's where the real trust comes from, readers, and if you're part of the local community, then you just follow the cultural norms. And you know, both Angel and Becca gave plenty of examples of what's what's normal, like sit down and have a meal with, with, with folks. So it's those sort of things that we need to be paying attention to when we're coming into native communities. Thank you.
I kind of think that I like it kind of stems from me as a Muskogee citizen doing coverage in the Muskogee nation, I understand and know all of those ethical values that are taught in our tribe. We all have these different set of values, you know integrity, you know wisdom, you know all those different things, and we have our own words for them, and it's kind of fun to compare that to the ethics of journalism, because in almost every instance I've seen and I've I've listened to other journalists who are from different tribes, they talk about their grandfather teachings, almost always these teachings align so dramatically, perfectly with journalism ethics. And it makes you kind of ask yourself, can you even do journalism right in Indian country if you do not understand these, these core values?
Thanks. We've been talking here and there about the film, bad press throughout this conversation, but I did want to give you all the opportunity to discuss it in a little more detail, both what it's about, the impact it's had, and, of course, what people know When and how they can watch and support it
absolutely. Thank you so much, Seth, and it has been, like I said, a journey that I I had no idea when we started this. And you know, this was we started following the story of the, you know, Muskogee nations repeal back in November of 2018 and so, you know, as as Jodi mentioned, out of 574 federally recognized tribes here in the US, only five of them had free press protections, you know, at the legislative level. And at that time, the you know, Muskogee media was one of those handful of tribes. And so when this emergency session came up for our National Council, which is our legislative branch, for the Muscogee nation, you know, I heard that there was a vote that was like going to happen that night, in an emergency session to repeal free press. And so I was serving on the Muscogee media editorial board at the time, and and so everyone is obviously like, you know, on high alert. And Angel can tell you, I'm sure what the, you know, what the vibes of the the newsroom was, you know, at that time, everyone, it was just chaos. You know, everyone was like, couldn't believe that we had, we had established our free press in 2015 so it had been, you know, in place for three years when this vote, you know, came up, seemingly out of the blue and in the lead up to an election year for the Muscogee Creek Nation. And so, you know, I don't want to give away too many spoilers. I think we've touched on some of those, but, but, yeah, it was, it was a story that we, I don't think anyone could have anticipated, you know, what the ending would be. And there, I think, in Indian Country, sometimes, unfortunately, you know, it's not always a happy ending. But I will say, you know, for our story, there was a very happy ending. And I'm, you know, happy that you know for our impact campaign, like there's now this you know, path to follow for other tribes. And as we've we've mentioned here as well, not every tribe you know their path to press freedom is going to be the same for the Muscogee Creek Nation. But I think that you know the citizens again, that were exercising that sovereignty and saying, you know, we need Muscogee media as our tribal media outlet, especially during an election year where we need to be educated voters, educated citizens, and we need to have accountability for our elected officials. And how do we do that without a functioning, you know, independent media, and so it was, and again, the citizens who really led this effort to restore this free press. And even though, you know, it took a really. Long time to do that, I think it just showcases, yeah, how you know your citizens are, ultimately the ones that hold the power and those healthy, you know, tribal democracies and, you know, independent media outlets that serve those citizens are such an essential part of that, because they are that, you know, accountability mechanism there in place. And so again, that's who we're bold into. It's not the elected tribal officials who want to squash the bad news, as you you know, see in bad press, but you know, it's we're beholden to the citizens. And so I love that our film, you know, showcases how you know it can be, you can have a successful, you know, movement of the people, and there's now this template for Indian country to follow when it comes to, you know, supporting your tribal media outlets and adopting Free Press protections, whether that's at the legislative or, you know, constitutional amendment level. And so it's very exciting, I think, to see other tribal nations that are inspired by the film, and, you know, to say, if Muskogee Creek Nation can do this, and they can make these changes within their own government, like, how can we do it too? And I think that's really the heart of our impact campaign for the film. And again, really continues on the work that we're doing as an organization at the indigenous Journalists Association. Press Freedom has always been one of the most important issues to us. And there's lots of, we'll say lots. There's many important journalism organizations who are focused on diversity. But I think when it comes to Indian country, again, like we have so many tribal nations that, you know, are represented within our our membership and the challenge of free press is so unique to, you know, the work that we do, that bad press is really, I think, such a beautiful like tribute to the boots on the ground journalists, again, who are doing this work and digging into the coverage every day. And also, I always just like to mention that, you know, it's very stressful. We know as as journalists, any newsroom is a chaotic place, but I think especially when you are working with your community, and there are certain challenges and joys that come along with being a part of that, because you feel that pressure even more intensely. And so I think being able to see that and the humor that you know, our journalists have, and that we as indigenous people have and use, really, as a survival mechanism, was also something that was really important to me, as you know, having been in the newsroom, and you know, having worked with our with our journalists and participants to make sure, like, you know, it really, we needed something to like, show like we're just human and just dealing with these very stressful situations. And I think, you know, using humor as a tool to do that. And it's it, it basically, it's like, you know, it's such a small like story relatively, but I think so universal are the themes, you know, and bad press, as we see, have played out here, you know, in the US, especially on the the the run up to another election year. So this really took us from election to election, and it was, it was a joy being able to follow angel and the Muskogee journalists and, you know, tell their story. And hopefully have you know that representation on screen that I feel like you know just didn't and doesn't, you know exist yet. So just making any difference we can when it comes to indigenous representation. And you know who we really are as indigenous people with all the diversity that we have. You know, whether that's tribal diversity, geographic diversity, and being able to show that and have people relate to us has been very, very rewarding. So I'll pause there. That was a long response.
Thanks so much. Becca. And one aspect of the movie that jumped out to me, perhaps because of my legal background, is that there really weren't many lawyers. This was a mission that Angel and her colleagues took upon themselves, you know, truly grassroots, in a way we don't see often, and, you know, in a weird way, that's inspiring to me to see lawyers not be needed. I'm not practicing law anymore. So that's easier for me to say. So. But I think there's such an assumption that to affect change, you need to have a legal budget. You need to have all of these experts and professionals at your disposal. And you don't often see success stories where someone doesn't need that and is able to to get things done. So good to see lawyers not not be needed. Angel, did you have anything? I Becca said, said, you know a lot about the movie, but you know you might have something to add. Being the protagonist, I won't say subject. Apparently you're not say subject anymore. I didn't know that. But from the protagonist perspective, anything you wanted to add? Yeah.
So, like, really, this film, when Becca asked me if I would do it, I thought this film would live on a hard drive and maybe that some college students would see it. And I had no idea, like, what the end result would be, you know, maybe, maybe they view it and it helps them understand that you're going to bang your head against the wall a lot advocating for press freedom. I just wanted people to start understanding that as a journalist, you can advocate for press freedom, you can advocate for freedom of information. You should be advocating for free speech and open meetings, and that all these things support each other, which strengthen democracy. And I didn't know if we would have a happy ending. I didn't know if we would have an ending. I didn't know if anyone would see this, if it would live in the world, but I thought, if it is going to live in the world, I just want us to start understanding that our profession, this wonderful profession that supports our very way of life and governance, is under a venomous attack right now, and sometimes for good reason. I can't say that it's always perfect, but I want people to understand that advocating and journalism do go hand in hand, and that journalist get carte blanche allowance for advocating for FOIA, for freedom of press, for all these things, we cannot be complicit in our own demise. And the making of the film was really like, it was like this most stressful four years of my life, I guess I learned a lot about myself personally, which really doesn't apply. But like, as for the legal presence of attorneys, you know, we didn't have the right to hire legal counsel. We were a government entity owned by the executive branch of government. And if we wanted to go to court, it would be the the chief Attorney General representing us, and they were never going to let us go into court and sue the tribe itself. We are the tribe. So we had to kind of establish some precedents that ensured our independent operation. And we did that through the really boring work of policy advocacy. And I just hope that if anyone does watch this and takes anything away with it, and you're a journalist, or you support journalism, or you work in the profession in some way, set aside some of your you know, I just kind of equate it to a formula. If I work eight hours, I might spend 30 minutes advocating for press freedom in some way, you know, like there's a ratio to it. You can't be a journalist without advocating for these things, because that's just the world we live in. And there are ways, if you don't have legal Avenue. There are community involvement and engagement this. Everybody asks me, when I do speak? You know, speak somewhere. They say, what's the secret formula? Just the good old fashioned talking to the people you serve to be driven by the purpose of service and to really work on that relationship. That's that's what it means to decolonize the media right like to really sink right into all of your values and purpose and to live in relationship with what you do, and understand that even the United Nations protects our rights to tell stories. So if that's the case, then we have work to do in educating our community to know that that's important. And so that's that's kind of been my takeaway, life changing opportunity. I'm so glad I did it. Don't know if I would do it another four years. It was really hard. But as we, as Americans, all of us in this country are living through an election cycle again. I just want to say that if you watch this film and then you want to know what's happened since we have had the most boring standard, easy going elections you would ever imagine. I mean, it's such night and day difference. What what the American people are being subjected to right now in the election cycle is, is the chaos and horror that we lived through trying to get information as as a tribal nation too. And I can tell you that on the other side of that is a really beautiful place where you get to archive your community into your new newspaper archives and really tell the story without all the dramatic BS grandstanding that politicians do, because once you once you use their platform to advocate for press freedom, it's game change time, and that's the way it happens. You have to let them know that every time they appear in public, they are going to be asked about press freedom, and when they can't run away from it anymore, that's when the change starts happening, and we do that together as a community.
Thanks so much, Angel. And yeah, we cannot be complicit in our own demise. That's something that I wish every journalist would sort of say to themselves every morning before they go to work. So totally. Totally with you on that one. I want to ask a question that when I saw bad press at the screening in Chicago, I went with a relative who is not really from the world of press freedom, and the question she asked coming out was, well, this media outlet was dependent on Muskogee government for for funding. If they don't want to be subject to the risk of retaliatory defunding, why don't they find another funding source, a corporate or nonprofit news outlet, for example, easier said than done. Of course, are there news outlets covering Indian country that are not dependent on tribal government for funding? And if that's not really feasible, can you explain why?
This is a great question. I love this question. It's one of my most favorite and cherished questions. It's the most revelatory in understanding a news ecosystem to answer this question. It's like so the short answer, as you've seen in the film, I was trying to leak this story of censorship of our tribal government was censoring as I was trying to leak it to any outlet that would do the story. And no one did. It took one of our one of our advocates at IJA, assuming the big, big job of making a documentary before the world knew the story was happening in America, and that is the general attitude of mainstream media. I don't want to get too generalized. I don't want to criticize people, and I don't want to, you know, throw any of my colleagues under the bus. But the big consensus out there in the news ecosystem as far as what stories get precedents, and what stories get told is the only time mainstream cares about the reservation is when there's a big, sexy, scandalous story. Is the chief in handcuffs, they will show up then it was there an election, they might give you the results on page nine in a tiny, little box. Maybe. Do they care about Indian country's issues? Probably not, unless it gets into their neighborhood too. And unfortunately, mainstream community journalism doesn't understand all these nuances and layers of law and cultural nuances that we've been talking about. And so they often, even when they do pay attention to the to the people in Indian country, they often get it wrong or they miss something, and they just don't tell the full story. And so I feel like there is an emerging interest. But what would make the daily big newspaper that has to cover all of Oklahoma dedicate page one to a tribal issue? Almost nothing, almost nothing makes that happen. And then when it comes to the funding, you know, we're an outlet that has less than 20 people working for it. I could go out and I could try to sell advertising to businesses, but they look at me and they say, you know, hey, I'm trying to sell Ford pickups here. Why would I put an ad in your paper when I don't think the people who read your newspaper have enough money to buy my pickup, and so that really kind of gives you an understanding of how the ecosystem in news is set up. It's very hard to compete with the established news ecosystem for independent money. It's very hard to get. Their editors to elevate the stories, then what are you left with? And the answer is, really, just do it your damn self, if you can. But what people often overlook is that when it comes to tribal government, our tribal government, for example, the Muskogee Creek Nation, is funded through gaming revenue and some federal program dollars that gaming revenue that is public funds, it's set aside to serve the people. And we went to advocate Kate for our laws with the assumption that the people deserve a transparent government, and the people demanded this too. And so when you started talking about the tribal government's budget, that revenue is really public funds, and they should have a say so on how those public funds are spent. Some of it might be housing, some of it might be food, food assistance or utility assistance. But our citizens in the Muskogee Creek Nation, 76.25% of them said We want some of that money dedicated to informing us about what our tribal government is doing, and we don't want the tribal government to edit it. So that was a very powerful message that the citizens said to their government, and I think that imagine what the United States would look like right now, if everyone in the United States was saying that to their elected leaders, it could be revolutionary.
Agreed.
Well, you talked a bit about this earlier Angel, about the threats to the press overall in the United States right now, I think you called it a venomous attack, which is another, another good phrase. I'm curious the extent to which press freedom trends in Indian Country track national trends. Right now, there's a lot of anti press rhetoric in the United States. Generally. There are things like the, you know, the Julian Assange case, or just the rhetoric from politicians calling the press the enemy of the people, and the whole fake news thing does. How much does that affect attitudes in Indian country, and how much are you sort of operating on a separate trajectory? It's
kind of a fun question, because, like, I think that the whole time we were filming bad press, you we were noticing these, you know, here and there, people in our in our tribal nations community, were kind of echoing the national trend, right? I mean, natives are on Twitter, natives are on social, natives are consuming mass media. Some of these attitudes do trickle in. The very big difference that I can pinpoint for us and how our policy developed over the course of this few years was that our tribe is not partisan. When I register to vote at the Muskogee Creek Nation, I don't tick a box that says Republican or Democrat. I'm just eligible to vote or I am not. And so a lot of that categorization, it is present, and people have their national preferences. But one thing that I think that the Muskogee people understood too was that erasure was real, and it happened, and they were told they couldn't tell their own stories. Our community was left out of the history books. So even if they're the most conservative and they're the most staunch believers and and even if they would say to us things like, oh, there's fake news, they don't necessarily have that attitude about their own media. You see what I'm saying, they still see that local media is their media, and they don't necessarily think it's terrible. In fact, culturally and generationally, they know that silence is very dangerous for indigenous people, to be swept aside, to be censored, to be told that your voice doesn't matter. And so there was a prevailing, you know, unifying thought that pressed freedom is still important. We still need. To tell our stories, regardless of how that journalism, regardless of how journalism was weaponized in partisan, you know, politics, it still didn't have such a bad rep on the rez.
That's that's really interesting, and I think there are lessons to be learned from that outside the rez. I you know, I don't think it's a coincidence that these anti press attitudes were able to take hold at a time when local media was on the decline, when news deserts are popping up everywhere. Things have been polarized in the past. People have hated cable news and the national media in the past, but at least they had their community journalists who they valued and who they didn't see as some sort of, you know, partisan working as part of some some conspiracy to advance a political agenda. Now the only journalists people see are the talking heads on MSNBC and Fox News, or whichever one they don't like, and that really impacts the their susceptibility to these narratives about fake news and about the media being the villain. So I think that just makes a strong case for supporting community media, whether an Indian country or anywhere else. I did have one more question, unless anyone has more to say about the national trends issue, feel free to come back to that, of course, but at the outset, I think Becca, you, you, you mentioned public records available, public access as a major concern. And Angel, I think you mentioned that as well. And recently, there was a Washington Post report highlighting difficulty getting information out of the federal government. Is the, how much does sort of government secrecy and over classification affect journalists at the tribal level?
Oh, this is a really, you know, great question. So you know, when we talk about data in Indian country, I think it's one of the biggest, you know, challenges that we have, whether that's on the tribal level, local, state, national level, there's just not enough you know, data about our communities that's really reflective of the like scope of the issues that we know that we have, like anecdotally. So I'll use, you know, the murdered and missing indigenous people issue, as you know, something that we're working to build data on. But that, again, there's really not just a master, you know, database for that as an example, and and it's something that is a huge issue for our communities. And so, again, just like using that as an example. But I think when you bring it back to the tribal level, and the challenges you know that come with that, and accessing FOIA again, every tribe is different. So within the Muskogee Creek Nation, if you want to put in a FOIA request, because we are one of you that do have, it's a pretty great FOIA law also, I will say. And it was passed around the same time that our free press legislation was restored. I believe it was, it was in 2020 is that right? Angel, yeah,
I think you're right there. 2020 it was, it came right before our constitutional amendment, yeah.
And so it was really, I think, a very good template, again, for you know what legislation can look like in our communities. But if you want to file a for a request with the Muscogee Creek Nation, you have to be a citizen in order to do that. So if you are a reporter or a journalist, that is not a citizen, even if you work for, you know, Muskogee media. If you're not a Muscogee citizen, you can't make those requests. And so I know more than a few times there have been journalists that are outside of the Muscogee Creek Nation who want access to that information, and the courts just say, up the up. We don't have to. They're not going to respond. Actually, I will say it's not that they even deny a FOIA request. They just never, you just never hear from them. So I will say, I think that is one of the, you know, next biggest challenges that we have within the Muscogee Creek Nation, and really in Indian country, is like adding some teeth into those, you know, FOIA laws, because it's like, you can have a really well written law, but if you don't have the, you know, the government that's willing to address those laws, like, and then we mentioned some of the red tape that goes with that, like you really don't have any recourse as a. Journalists at all, because the court system, again, is, you know, run by and administered through the, you know, principal chief's office, the Attorney General's up, you know, work for the tribes. And so it's, again, a very it kind of sends you in a loop. But, yeah, I do think, like, as far as, like, accessing open records. And FOIA it's, it's still a really huge challenge, I know, for the Missouri Creek Nation. And I will say it's better and worse in other places too. And maybe Jodi has some insight on being, you know, representing an independent media outlet and trying to get access to those I know again, it's just across the board challenging, but still something that we're working on.
I think that, like since our FOIA law was adopted, we have had one or two instances where they actually turned over documents to us, and it was not the most controversial things, you know, like, it was not like, if it's too if it's too spicy, they're going to Deek, they're going to they're going to classify it. And the reason that that is kind of the standard is because we just don't have access to an attorney to represent us in tribal court. And that's the next step for us. We have constitutional protections now, and now we're working on partnering legislation that will allow us to hire an independent attorney and be represented in tribal court. And this is kind of what it looks like to build the very foundations of transparency in government. It looks like now maybe, and I imagine this to be the case for the next four or 510, years, we might be seeing instance after instance, where we take our attorney and we go and file, you know, a petition to the court and the, you know, we have to set the precedence that our government does have to be transparent. And there are it will take. It will take a lot, and that's why it's such a hard thing to advocate for an Indian country, because you're almost building the system from the ground up. And it's kind of a tragedy that the Bureau of Indian Affairs did not set up every tribe with all the components that it needed to be successful, right? The United States government has these and these things in doctrine, in law, but, you know, they were like, Oh, I guess the Indians don't need this, and that's why collaboration is going to be so important to, you know, get these stories out, if someone's listening, and you're from the, you know, New York Times or the post, and you want to do a story On a tribe, and you can't get the documents, find a person local who can get them for you, and work together and collaborate on these stories and break these stories together. Collaboration is going to be what actually saves journalism from this big funk that we're in. It's going to help us pool resources. It's going to help us spread the messages wider. And so I really think that that's a key to overcoming some of these challenges. And it's not always that we have to throw more money out of things. Sometimes we just have to be smart about the rebuild. You know, journalism in general has taken traumatic hits over the last 3040, years. And so when we talk about how to improve that, we start with relationships and trust in the community, and then we we move beyond that into collaboration of pooling resources together with with mainstream and niche news and and we break really good stories that are very impactful and important for people.
I thanks so much. That was the last of my prepared questions. But if there is anything else that anyone wanted to say that they didn't get in whether it's about the film bad press or whether it's just about press freedom in Indian country more generally, if there's any way you want to suggest that people who listen to this might be able to help, please feel free to to speak up and let us know. And on the film. I I'm not sure if it is, if there are still screenings ongoing, if it's go is or is going to be available to watch on any platform, but please, please let us know about that too.
Yeah. So we're really excited. Earlier this month, on September 1, bad press made it streaming debut on the criterion channel. So you, if you have a subscription to the criterion channel, you can watch it there anytime, so it's exciting. And then we also actually have a screening tonight that's free to the public at USC, so if you're local to the LA area and you want to join us, that'll be at 7pm tonight. Then I will also on my Twitter, I'll link to our impact survey for bad press as well. So if you have already seen the film and you want to fill that out, you know that data will help us as the filmmakers and as the impact team and our support organizations like IJA, you know that data will help us, you know, kind of shape our campaign and our strategy for again, you know, sharing this template now that we have through the Muscogee Creek Nation for what, you know, independent press can look like at the legislative level, at the constitutional level, it will, you know, help us shape that campaign. So we're really, again, excited. We're still doing impact screenings throughout the, you know, US and Canada. So this is the latest what we have this fall. But you can always go on our website at bradpress dot film for any future screenings there as well, if you want to catch it on the big screen instead of watching at home. But happy to have any reviews on letterbox.com. As well, for folks who have again seen the film or if, if and when you watch it, would love to have those. So thank you so much for this opportunity to the freedom of press foundation and to Jody and Angel and joining us for such a great conversation about press freedom in Indian country.
Thanks so much. Any other closing thoughts before we sign off?
If you are not a subscriber to criterion, and you want to become a new one until from now until September 16, if you use the the code bad press 24 you get 20% off. Just say, Good to know.
Okay, and this is Jody. I know we're kind of running over time right now, but I just want to thank the and your organization for having providing a platform for us to talk about these issues. And I would just put this flag up saying that, you know, we've been talking about the barriers to press freedom for journalists, but you know, one of the big, one of the buzzwords floating around right now is also regarding tribal data, sovereignty and tribal jurisdictions. So while we're fighting our own tribes to get information, you know, they have their own fight in information being extracted from them by, you know, state and federal governments with them accessing like health information, for example, without tribal permission. So I think, and I hope we're going to see that intersection of press freedom and freedom of information intersecting with tribal data sovereignty. Because I think we're we should be able to see some coming together of of minds and figuring out and understanding that data is important to individuals and communities, just as this data isn't important to tribal governments. So yeah, just be on the lookout for tribal data sovereignty, and let's, let's see where that path takes us.
Thanks so much to Jody Becca and Angel and for everyone who listened live, we're going to promote this event on x and elsewhere, so hopefully many others can, can listen in after the fact, and we'll, we'll also probably do a write up on it again. Appreciate everyone joining great conversation, and we'll talk to talk to you all soon. Thanks everyone. Thank you.
