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RCC CC&R Updates Meeting 1/9/25

JJosh PackerJan 10 at 1:24 am1h 42min
SScott Reid03:20
So we'll give everybody A few more minutes to kind of get in. I
SScott Reid03:56
so Quinn, who is on your team? Is it just you?
QQuinn - Attorney04:02
The team? Here tonight.
SScott Reid04:04
That's here, yeah, just representing. As far as to answer the legal questions, is it just you from your office? Yeah,
QQuinn - Attorney04:12
just me. Okay. I
Unknown04:29
Well, kind of
SScott Reid04:36
with the introduction here. So this is Quinn everyone. He is the one who drafted our new ccnrs. And I know there has been some questions, and I think the best thing to do is I can share the ccnrs with with everybody, and we can kind of go over things. And I think what we really need to do is probably, I think there's a hand raising option, or we can do it in the chat. I think the best thing to do is have you ask the questions directly to Quinn, and then if your question has been answered, then we don't have to re ask it. So I guess the first thing is, let me go through and share my screen with the new ccnrs, and I can kind of start there. So let's see.
SSpeaker 105:42
This is the right the right ones. Yeah. Okay.
QQuinn - Attorney05:48
And Scott, do you want, do you want to just start with the questions? Or do you want me to have, you know, do a explanation on anything, just kind of an overview?
SScott Reid05:57
Yeah, I think the big guess, the biggest thing that, you know, people have been asking is, you know, there's a lot of red inside of here, and I think, I think it confuses people. So maybe you can start off with explaining some of it, and then we can circle back and ask the question,
QQuinn - Attorney06:16
sure,
+2
Image 1Image 2do you want to I can do that. You know, just, just more of a let me give you a context or some groundwork as we as we look at covenants, there's four concepts that you want to keep in mind. It's ownership, use mints and insurance. And so ownership is really who owns it, right? I mean, each of you own, you know, your individual unit and the town home units in the single family, you're owning the home the lot, right? And so clearly, it's, it's what's been deeded to you there, there's certain limited common areas, you know, driveways, decks, patios, those types of things you wouldn't own those that's common area. The common area is owned by the association. But the limited common area, if it's, you know, assigned or or adjacent to your unit, or pertinent to your unit, you get to use that to the exclusion of others. So it's essentially treated as yours, but the ownership is still the HOA and then common area, it's it's the association. So keep that in mind ownership, and when you get to maintenance, that doesn't, that doesn't have to follow ownership. So again, use, you get to use yours limited commentary. You can use it to the exclusion of others. And then general common area, everybody has an easement to that. So generally you're going to be able to to use most everything, unless you can see, hey, that belongs to these individual people. So back on the maintenance again. Everybody just thinks, Well, I only maintain my own stuff to a degree, yes, but you can in through the covenants. You can allocate or assign or allocate a sign or delegate certain maintenance responsibilities of common area to owners. And that is being done here limited common area. You can, you can make the owners responsible for that in in certain situations, right? So again, they get to use it. And so you're, you're saying, you also maintain some communities will say, hey, the HOA still going to maintain all that. And then some people feel that there's an inequality on some of it. And then it's insurance for the town home units that is designated by statute because you share walls. It the statute says you have to have this certain type of property insurance, which is a blanket policy that's going to be covering that. The example that's always given is, take your unit, flip it upside down, whatever doesn't fall to the ground. The HOA is insurance policy is going to cover that the, you know, the things that are inside, that's what you are responsible to have. You go get your H o6 policy. And so that is for the town home units. That's how it comes into play. Single family, you got to have your own insurance, right? And so with those with those things in mind, you know, as we go through the changes, hopefully that that helps you, you know, understand and address some of the concepts. Okay, good question. So, you know, the question that came in is, you know, what was the basic, you know, reason of why we, you know, why we were looking to change this. Another one, you know, water mains, common area versus homeland responsibility. We'll get to the maintenance there. So one of the big reasons to do the amendment is bring it up to code. Well, I should say code, but incorporate the statutory amendments that have been happening over the years, there's been quite a bit. Every legislative session there's, there's changes this year. I mean, we're not even in we were already seeing, I think with today, there was a seventh or an eighth one that's already been introduced, that that they're impacting homeowners associations. But but we do see some, and so that's where some of these updates you're going to see that it's really just to comply with the statute. And there's those notes I've included those on the side to really just say, Hey, we're incorporating this language from the statute, so that you know that one is really just bringing in language from the statute so that you're more up to date. One of the other reasons is really to clarify some of the maintenance responsibilities and really setting it up where there's the town home service area, so that those town homes it's clear that they are covering their own expenses. You know, Scott, if you can, you can chime in if I'm wrong, but I know that there was an issue of the way the books were being done, and kind of with taxes, of of, you know, allocating or accounting for some of that, with the town homes versus single family. So
QQuinn - Attorney11:47
clarify that and clean it up so that you know everybody knows, okay, this is how that's being accounted for, and that is in the town home section, the roadways private. And then the HOA is taking care of the exterior the buildings and some of the other maintenance responsibilities, where, in the single family that roadway that goes through its public and obviously the owners of those single family homes, they're in charge of maintenance on their lots in the home. So it again, it's to clarify those town home units. They're taking care of the maintenance in their in their areas, and the single family you know, they're not paying necessarily to take care of the maintenance of those, those town home units. That was the intent before. It just wasn't as clear. And so we are clarifying that also with the insurance, since you have to have the different type of insurance for town home versus single family, that insurance cost, or even the, you know, the increase for having that as you work with your insurance agent, that becomes part of a town home expense as well the one area that is on the town home plat that the single family home owners do contribute to the maintenance. That's what the clubhouse in the pool, because that is used for everybody. So it's not just even though that's on the town home plat. And much of what we're doing is saying, you know, the town home area is paid for by the town homeowners. It's not fair for you guys to pay for all the clubhouse in the pool if the single family owners get to use it. So, so we've carved that one out of the town home plot to say everybody's going to help contribute to the maintenance and upkeep of that. And so those were, those were some of the big ones. We were also addressing leasing, and, you know, talking about that and leasing restriction, which I'll get into as we get in further on again, just to put out some of the again, statutory updates or recent laws. So it deals with signs where it's clear that religious holiday signs that the you know, the association of the board, can only adopt rules to regulate them to a certain degree. You know, you're balancing freedom of speech, but we've incorporated statutory language that same thing with political signs and defining what a political sign is. That was there were some ambiguity until just really a year ago, where they clarified what a political sign is. And that's good, because you had instances that there was some messages that were almost say it was borderline hate language. And so we've incorporated that to make it clear for sale, signs, those types of things that that we've really incorporated that water efficient landscaping. You have to do that because, as owners, take care of some of the landscaping, especially the single family, the there's a reinvestment fee, so when a lot or a unit is sold, that you can capture some of of that to put into the reinvestment of the community. So the statute does allow for that. It the maximum amount you can charge is up to a half of 1% of the value. Not saying you have to do that. Many communities just said a flat dollar amount that that is, you know, collected upon that the reserve analysis, reserve study, again, putting in there the statute has to be done every six years, reviewed every three so that as the as the board is preparing a budget every year, they're taking into account, and we need to be planning ahead for these expenses that are going to be coming out. You know, whether it's here in the next couple of years or 10 years down the road. And then some of the others that we were bringing in is the the right to or strengthen the association's ability to collect against delinquent owners and and really incorporating many of the statutory remedies that are there so that everybody's on the same page. Okay, let me go. I know several questions have been coming in. Let me, let me see those.
Unknown16:35
Okay,
SScott Reid16:37
use the I think, I think the next one we're at is the water mains. I think that's been something that's been brought up, because, you know, the we have the main the community has a water mains that obviously the HOA is responsible for, because it services the entire community. And then after that you have the offshoots that are mains that go into the units themselves. And I think our old CCR were written in such that those lines going into the into the into the units were covered by the HOA, and we changed it so that they're no longer the HOA responsibility. Do you want to elaborate on some of that? Yeah,
QQuinn - Attorney17:20
absolutely. So, you know, really, if what it is the, the simplest concept is just to say, if the pipe, or any, any part of that infrastructure is it's going if it's serving more than one unit, right, the HOA is going to maintain it once it splits off from that where it only goes to serve one unit, the the homeowner is responsible to that extent, which is not uncommon. When you you know you're in an area that's not in an HOA, when you get the sewer lateral or the water lateral, the the law has been changed, where in fact, those, those those entities, have to provide notice at least once a year that shows, essentially, once it hits the curve of the property going in, the homeowners responsible for that so, so that's, that's what you can think about, is once it comes off a main line to just serve your area, that's what you're responsible for it.
SScott Reid18:22
Okay? And then moving in again, I want to keep this session to like, a Q, A, because, you know, if anybody who's on the call, I think it's fair that they get to ask their question. So I just kind of want to go down. Let's try to keep the chats relative to the questions, because if we keep bickering back and forth on the chats, we're never going to get anything done. So let's, let's keep the chat to the questions so that we can answer them. That way we can kind of get through this. So I'm just going to go down here. We someone has a question on 7.2, dot for the pool being rented. I don't remember that one, but we can definitely dig into it
Unknown18:59
right here. So I
QQuinn - Attorney19:01
mean, when it says like it hadn't been the case. So I mean, what we added is the red line there, right? So if you, if you take that out, well you can charge a reasonable admission to be used. And so that is, well, do you just charge every homeowner a fee to be using it? Well, that's what you have right as as part of your membership. And so it's, it kind of be employed, or implied you can, you can rent it. So we were making that, that you can. It doesn't mean that they have to, right? It's just if they're choosing to do that as a way to get some revenue, then, then they can do it. And that's, again, you're not, you're not going to rent it to really make it like swimming lessons are a big thing. It's maybe, if they're doing a, you know, birthday party or something, that's what you see. The board doesn't have to allow it,
SScott Reid19:52
right? That's what I was going to say. All of these in here are just allowances, but the board could opt not to allow that. Yeah. Okay, so let
QQuinn - Attorney20:01
me address a couple of those on signs. You know? Why? Why regulate signs? Why is that an HOA issue? Well, the legislature adopted the law, right? It's part of the statute that is basically stating, here's what HOAs can do and not do so. So what we've done is is bring into your CCRS the limitations of this is to the to the degree of what the association can regulate it. So it's more of the HOA can't be overbearing to prohibit all of these things you you do have to allow those certain signs not saying the HOA has to regulate and not allow the other signs. It's just incorporating, if the HOA does regulate it, you still have, the owner still have these rights to have those signs. So, so that's what we're doing, is bringing that in so that, again, it's really more of the homeowners rights, that you can display those signs of the religious signs, political signs. And there is some regulation that can take place, you know, time, place and manner. But that's, you know, that's why we're having it again. The legislature adopted those statutes that put it in place. You know, there is that. There's the comment, hate language doesn't exist. I can't see the whole thing. I mean, I made that comment. It's borderline. I mean, that was on the political sides, because, until we got the definition, I mean, it was things like communities, people would put up, you know, a swastika or or they it would be like, hey, f this candidate, right? And people didn't, I mean, they didn't appreciate that, especially some of those signs that it does it, it's
QQuinn - Attorney21:55
expensive to people. And so the legislature, they came out and said, This is what a political sign is, and we've incorporated that language, which really is, you know, it's, it's to elect a certain candidate for office there elect or defeat, and then to basically seeking to approve or defeat a a, you Know, ballot initiative. That's there. That's That's it. That's really the two areas that are political side.
SScott Reid22:24
Now I just want to go in one thing, Quinn, if we can, to let people on this call understand the difference between because I know there's a lot of a lot of talk as far as we have single family homes and we have town homes, and this will kind of go into the limit on the on the the rentals, but a lot of people are, are looking at these H or the CC and ours, and, you know, they're, they're looking,
SScott Reid22:59
how can This be enforceable when it's, you know, when you're dealing with the single family homes versus the town homes, where, what part does the HOA actually have control over when it comes to the single family homes, when we have public streets, public utilities, you know, public sidewalks and easements. Where, as far as I know, I don't know where that what the HOA could enforce. Because as far as I'm concerned, if we have a law that's in place in the city, the HOA can't override that law. Is that correct?
QQuinn - Attorney23:32
Yeah, you can't. So the HOA can be more restrictive if they want, but you can't be less restrictive than the city ordinance. And so, an example, and that kind of surprises people, is parking right? It's a public roadway. The city is going to have certain regulations on parking. You know, most common is winter parking, right? If it snows, you can't be on the street because it impacts snow removal. Well, the HOA can actually come in and regulate, and I know I'm not. I'm not saying do this. I'm just using an example to say there's no on street parking at all in the community, even on the public street, right? And people like, how can you do that? It's a public roadway well being in the HOA, and you have these covenants and the statute that does allow the board to adopt rules that allows them to restrict the parking to owners and the residents that are there. I don't like doing that. That's why I'm saying, you know, you don't do that, because if somebody else from outside the community comes and parks there, and then they go and visit somebody outside of your community, you can't regulate that person, right? So then it comes to, how do you actually know who's parking there on the public roadway, but, but that is an example that you could do. Got it? The other one does go back to kind of the signage, right of you know, what can you regulate there? Again, all we did was bring in the statute that the legislature adopted, and so you're not going to be able to, especially with a single family, there's you have less of an ability to regulate some of those things than you do in the town homes, because where it's common area, or where The HOA is maintaining, you know, like the exterior, you can regulate that, because you're not going to let people go and put up a sign where they're, you know, affixing it to the building where it can put holes in. But again, there, there's a little bit difference between the town homes and single family, where you can regulate some of those things. And I know somebody else is putting in there. Hey, constitutionally protected rights can be infringed by an HOA. I agree with that. You know, if you're referring to the signage and those things, again, it's, I mean, all we're doing is bringing in the, you know, the the Utah code for that, and so it's not saying you can't have freedom of speech. It's, I mean, the law does allow you to to regulate some of that by time, place and manner. And that's really what Utah legislature has put in place, and that we are putting in your covenants. It would even if we didn't have it in your covenants, it applies. And so what by putting it in there? It's not everybody is aware of that, and so it's in the statute you're subject to it.
SScott Reid26:25
So let's go on the next one actually refers to the water lines, and I just want to make sure that's addressed, because that's been a big topic. But when a water line does need to be replaced and it has to dig up the driveway, is the H the HOA is responsible for the driveway, replacing it. I mean, that's the weird thing that we have going on, is all the water lines go underneath the driveway, yeah,
QQuinn - Attorney26:48
so that is and so help me understand that if it's going under the driveway, is that where it's it's already split off into the individual unit. Okay, yeah, and that is, so let me, let me do the reverse example of that, with repairs to the common area, and then hopefully it'll help you understand, you know, the reverse here, if there's, let's say it's a common line in the building, and the water line breaks, right? So you've got a burst pipe, it's obviously going to cause some damage. Well, the HOA is going to have to go in and get into that common area to repair the, you know, that common area and the common line. So if the HOA is going in and in order to access that, they're having to cut through, you know that the wall or some other area of the unit, well, they don't get to repair the common area. And then look at the unit are and say, Hey, sorry, you got to repair your unit, right? The HOA is responsible to restore that part of the unit to the way it was before. So the reverse of that is if, even though the HOA is responsible for the driveway, if the homeowner is responsible for that water line and it breaks, and they have to go through that that driveway area to access it and repair it, the homeowner is responsible to, you know, kind of restore that, that driveway in the common area.
SScott Reid28:25
So, okay, um, regarding the rentals, someone you know is asking about, you know, why? Why we are limiting the rentals of the town homes versus the single family homes? And I can probably address that. I mean, in theory, we could put caps on everything, is that right? But, yeah, but in this case, we did, and just so everybody's aware, we're not planning on approving these or sending them to final review until we go to all of the In other words, since that rental cap really only affects the town homes, we're only going to pull the town homes to see if a majority of them want to keep the cap. If it comes back where a majority of you don't want to keep the cap, we'll remove it. And same goes with a lot of other things that people disagree with. So just hopefully, that answers a lot of people's questions, just because it's written in here does not necessarily mean it's the final draft. We have to get this approved, and we're not going to. I, for one, would like to make it fair. So if we go through the town homes, or making decisions that have to do with the town homes, even though I don't live in the town homes, I want to make sure that everybody who owns a town home has a voice, and again, it's the majority of the rules. So if we come through and that gets kicked out, we won't have it in there. That's that's going to be up to the town homes, not the single family homes, because that doesn't affect us. But just so everybody's aware, anything in here is not final, and that's why I wanted to have this conversation with Quinn, because he can, he can address some of those wording in there and the verbiage and the reasoning better than I can, or the board can, so it's not that we're trying to tiptoe around it. We just aren't equipped to answer the question. So we'll keep moving down.
QQuinn - Attorney30:09
Well, let me, let me follow up on that. Scott is just to say, you know, I applaud your board for this approach we have. We represent some communities where they get this draft and they send it out to the owners that we're voting on this right now, clearly some of you are saying, Hey, I don't like this provision. I don't like that approach where they just send it out and say we're voting. I prefer this approach, where it's we're sending it out to you homeowners, we're having a, you know, a question and answer, kind of an education meeting to say, here's what the changes are. Let's get some feedback as the board gets that they can say, hey, maybe, like, I'm I'm looking at these questions. Hey, that language to be able to rent the pool. Some people have some strong feelings about that. Hey, let's go back. I mean, the board will decide this, but this is an example. Let's go back in on that provision rather than clarifying, hey, this is how you could rent it, change the language to say the pool will not be rented, right? Anybody can always use it. So that's the type of thing that we're looking at here, is to say, how do people feel about these and so we go back, we make the changes and and then it's, it's in a better spot to say, now we can vote so, and that's the same thing with the rentals, right? And I know there was a question earlier, Scott, you had brought up to me, is that somebody was saying, hey, we need unanimous approval if you're if you're restricting and banning all rentals, yes, you do need to have everybody. That's not what you're doing. And so you only need the threshold to do your amendments. You're also incorporating the exemptions or exceptions that are in the statute that that you know you would have to allow people to lease if they qualify for one of those. So,
SScott Reid31:58
so moving down, I think we've answered as far as the question about the voting process. Just to reiterate, yeah, and we're not going to send these out without having a majority vote on some of these items, right? Obviously, we can't put every single item, because some of these existed in the old ones, and some of them are, like you said, Quinn, there's statute updates and verbiage updates because we gotta do it,
QQuinn - Attorney32:25
yeah, and we did that. So if it's not read or underlined, that's language that's already in your in your covenants, right? And then the language that was really just the statutory updates, that's where we made a note to say this is incorporating language from this statute so that you can, you know better, understand that if there's if it's a red line and it doesn't have the note, then that is more of just good practices, or what the board thought would be a good idea for your community at this point, but get feedback From the owners, and then that can be revisited. So
SScott Reid33:04
okay, so the other one, I know this is a question. So Melinda, you asked this as far as the water lines and getting insurance on that, I don't know if anybody here, I can't give you an answer on that. I I'm not sure. I don't know what kind of insurance there is on water lines, so I'm not sure there's
QQuinn - Attorney33:22
insurance. Yeah, you can get
SScott Reid33:26
that the town homes would be able to use. Well,
QQuinn - Attorney33:30
you would go to your own, your own insurance agent, and get it. And oftentimes you'll see with the entity that's providing it. And it's the same with, I mean, your sewer line, your your gas, you can go and get insurance for those. Probably the most common one that we do see is the sewer lateral that people get. And probably because I think that those entities are probably more active in, you know, advertising. To get that insurance, but, but yeah, there. There are products out there that you can get.
SScott Reid34:11
Okay, just so everybody knows, when you mention a section in here, I'm going to log it down. These are the sections that I'm going to send out to you guys to vote on. So we don't that way. We don't have to waste a lot of time kind of understanding it. Because the next one is, you know, why should the HOA be allowed to charge a fee to lease rent property? I mean, as far as I'm concerned, that's a legal thing that we could do, and that's why it was put in there. It doesn't mean that we have to, right Quinn, it's just something that's in there opens up the opportunity, if we had to
QQuinn - Attorney34:42
correct where that is. So I currently am the chair of a legislative action committee for the HOA industry. And anytime there's a provision that talks about leasing or rentals, there's the it was the Apartment Association. They've now changed. It's like rental ownership or
QQuinn - Attorney35:10
about is they, I mean, they were trying to say, hey, here's some restrictions or limitations we want on rentals. And managers were saying, well, with the with rentals, we often will have more expenses and be just dealing with some tenants on different issues. Well, if managers do that under their contract, they're charging you as the association, right? Well, everybody else, if you're not the landlord, you're paying that. So we worked with the, you know, the Apartment Association at that point, to say, Okay, let's find a balance, right? If you want to promote more leasing in the community, that's also going to increase expenses. So how do we offset that? So they agreed to that fee of saying, it's 200 and up to 200 that's in the statute. But you can only charge that if you allow at least 35% of the units or lots in your community to be rented, which you would qualify for that so and
SScott Reid36:13
everybody needs to understand that everything in here can can be we don't. It's not like the HOA, the ccnrs are not made, that we have to follow them is exactly. We can be lenient on that and say we're not going to charge for lease to rent and property as a board. And that to me, I think everybody who's an owner here, you guys, should get involved in the board. It's the making decisions. I mean, I'm not going to be on it all the time, but you know, that's, that's who makes these decisions, right? So I think it's important that, you know, we may have those options inside of there. It's probably not a good idea to develop CC and ours where we limit those options from being in there. And a case in point is the rule around the parking right? I actually agree with that. I don't think we should go and have it more restrictive than the city. I agree with that. But again, we would have to have everybody. I think it's important to get everybody's take on it, and so that's kind of why. Like, I know So Timothy, I know you've brought this up a few times, and I think in this case, we would probably put this out that that rule only applies to the single family homes. You can't park anything in the town home. So again, it's one of those things. I know that's a concern, but I think we just need to bring it out to the entire community to say, you know, is this something that we want to have? And if it isn't, and we want to follow back on the city's guidelines and rules, by all means that we'll, we'll be happy to do that. And the final draft will be a will consist of everybody's ideas to a majority vote. We're not I'm I, for 1am, not willing to make enemies in the neighborhood, by by, by pushing this down everybody's throat. That's not my goal. My goal is to be fair. So So Timothy, just to kind of get your understanding. We'll definitely put that to a vote. Stands on it, and let's go with the majority. And if we have to, we're going to knock door to door to get that, you know, vote. So kind of goes down there, and then we've already answered the majority, 67 or 80% that's been answered.
QQuinn - Attorney38:23
The other question up above about, you know, the voting process, let me touch on that. I mean, it clarifies. You know, Scott has said, Hey, I'm going to highlight some of these and send it out to vote, Scott, I believe what you're saying. There is more like a poll, right of hey, we've got this. How do you guys feel? To give us feedback so we can come and change it if we need to. So that's one type of the voting that's not actually approving the amendments, that's just soliciting feedback so they can change it, and then we put it out for a vote when it does go to vote, you know, once the board is comfortable with the additional revisions, there's a couple different ways that it can be approved. And one thing to point out is your current documents say that you need 80% of the homeowners. The legislature did enact something about well a little over a decade ago that limited that to 67% and so that is, again, that's one of the reasons we're doing the update to your documents. So it's clear it's not 80% that's in there. The statute is overridden that at 67 but you can the way it can be voted on is people can come to a meeting and they can vote there, right? It's hard to get 67% at a meeting, unless you go get a lot of proxies. So you can do it at a meeting. You can also do a hybrid. The law allows you to do a hybrid, where people can come and they can be voting in person, or they can you even send in a ballot, right, a mail in ballot. So you can do a hybrid that way, you can just do it by ballot, completely mail in ballot. You can also written consents. You go around and just get people to sign off. And you don't have to record those signatures with the county recorder, but they get that, and then they're saying, we got it. If you do the written consents, you do have to collect all those signatures within 60 days. So so there are a variety of ways that it can be approved, and as you get to that point, we'll talk to the board, and the board will decide which method do we want to pursue to get those and and also, in giving the signatures of the approval. You can use electronic means. The the law allows for that too. So DocuSign even it through an email responding to say, I approve this, that that'd be written consent. So, so there, you know, there's the various ways to do it.
SScott Reid40:56
So again, the water line thing, we'll, we'll bring that to a vote with the with the homes, I mean, to understand, you know, we can keep everything in the one of the things that has come up is, you know, When I bought the
SScott Reid41:19
builder wrote these ccnrs, not necessarily for long term use. I mean, they if everybody in the town homes wants all the services that they currently have, by all means, we can keep it in there, but those services are at a cost. So as far as the water mains and the water lines, the water main to the entire community, obviously, that's done by the HOA, we have to pay for that water going to your exact home, or your home that's not normally taken care of by the HOA and but again, if we want to leave it in, that's, by all means, we can leave it in. It's just going to be the majority vote for the town homeowners, because that's the only individuals, or the only households that really, you know affects.
QQuinn - Attorney42:03
And that goes back to where I was starting saying, hey, these four concepts, right, ownership, use, insurance, maintenance. So, because I know that you know the comment there is hey, if it's on one line,
QQuinn - Attorney42:22
well, even though the documents may say individual homeowners, you're responsible for the maintenance here again, the the association could say, hey, if we go get a policy, and insurance policy, maybe because homeowners can't get it, or if we do it as a whole, it's going to be cheaper. They can do that, and then that cost of that insurance for the town home units is, again, the way we've set it up for this town home service area. It's a town home expense gets spread out amongst all the town homeowners, right? So there is some flexibility that, that you can do with that.
SScott Reid42:59
Yeah, and then just going again, as far as the parking I don't know who asked for that. I don't know why, why it was worded the way it is. But again, it's one of those things that we can change before we do the final though.
QQuinn - Attorney43:14
And you can, I mean, in the single family, it can just be, hey, it's city ordinance. And then, you know, obviously the private roads is a little different, but, yeah, um,
SScott Reid43:30
so that Richard and I'm just going, and maybe Quinn, you can address that, I'm not sure exactly. And Richard, if you want to chime in, you can chime in and ask Quinn directly,
QQuinn - Attorney43:42
which one are we looking is that the majority bottom
SScott Reid43:46
with what's, what's the criteria? Simple majority thought statute required 80%
QQuinn - Attorney43:52
Yeah. Okay, so I hopefully I touched on that is, know that. So the statute dropped it to 67 right? Your, your ccnrs that are in effect, put it at 80. It says it's 80, but when the legislature enacted that statute, it went and dropped it to 67 and and I mean, I I can give you context for that, because it was actually my law partner who drafted that statute and it came out. We represented a recreational property, a cabin community, and they wanted to do amendments because it had discriminatory language. I mean, it was, you know, it's outlaw, but it was saying you can't sell your property to people of these certain races. They I mean, there's now a statute that you can get that out with the board, but at the time, they needed 100% approval to get it out, and that was just impossible. So went to the legislature. They said, Okay, yeah, we see there's certain instances like that. We're going to drop it to 67% so that's how that came up. Even up. Even since then, they've come out to say, hey, if it's got that clearly discriminatory language, the board can just take it out.
SScott Reid45:10
I think the confusion, Richard, I think I understand what you're saying. We talk about the majority and we talk about the 67% I think the misunderstanding here, because
Unknown45:20
it because
SScott Reid45:24
majority I'm talking about a poll, meaning we're going to go ask the owners what they prefer out of these topics that have been brought up that people don't agree with, and we're going to use the majority of those to redraft the ccnrs with what the majority of the community owners want. That's that's the idea. Then we go back after we get the final draft done, and that's when we give it out to the community to vote on. And that's where we need. The 67% does that. Yeah, that makes so that's what I think. That's why that was the confusion. But yes, and the idea behind that is because I want it to be fair, and it's one of those things where I may not agree with something in here, I may not agree with what other people say, but if most people want to have a certain thing changed, we all have to accept that most people want it and then go with it, even though we may not agree with it. It's we. I would rather have it go out to a pool and understand that the community, by D or by majority, wanted this in there. That's kind of the idea behind it. Going back, I know the rental thing is, it is a touchy subject, and that's been brought up several times where people disagree with it. Again, it'll be something that will bring out to the community. If the majority of the owners don't want it, we will have to remove it. If they do, we'll leave it in.
QQuinn - Attorney46:54
And there's, there's various ways to even approach that. You know, many people, they they like the idea of of restricting rentals, you know, long term, but they also don't like to lose the ability to rent, right? And so there's communities that even say we're going to restrict rentals, but anybody who lives here now, when we adopt it, you can still rent, even if you're here and 10 years from now, you're like, right now, I can rent. I mean, a position you would be allowed to rent. So there's, there's various ways to address it. You don't have to have any rental restrictions. And the pros and cons are, if it turns into mostly a rental community that turns some people off, right? And then it's investors like it, so they'll come in, but, but some others don't like it. Even some lenders don't, don't really like it. I The lenders aren't as concerned about it. Is, you know, people that want to come and buy it and live there be owner occupied, but, so that's, that's one why you want to restrict it. You know, some people think tenants don't take as good a care, and so the appearance, the esthetics of the community, kind of go downhill. That's a stereotype. Sometimes you see it, sometimes you don't. But the the argument against rental restrictions is you're limiting potential buyers for your property, right?
QQuinn - Attorney48:28
Because who have the money, they wouldn't be allowed to come in and buy it, because you already need the cap. So that's, I mean, those are kind of some of the arguments you hear on both
SScott Reid48:38
sides. And I'll touch to the Why didn't, you know, why didn't we have the poll before? People have to understand. This was in the works of probably two boards ago as well. You know this they there was questionnaires given out to boards in the past, and they put things in here, and this is the final draft of those boards in the past. And so that's why this is years in the process, and that's why things were put in there. And so we even, I don't know what exactly was put in there before my time, but things were requested before I got involved. And that's kind of where we stand, which is why I feel like it's important to take it to a poll to the community. Because, you know, just because the board decides to do it doesn't mean that it's right or doesn't mean that the community wants it, and that's something we all have to just accept. Yes,
QQuinn - Attorney49:27
I looked at my notes on that our we were, our firm was approached back in 22 to, you know, to give a proposal to kind of work on it. So you're right, it's, it's been in the works for a long time, and that's not, we haven't been working on a con. On it constantly, right? Because the boards, they have other things. And so it may be, we send information, they're working on questionnaires, and we get it back six months later or something. So it Yeah,
SScott Reid49:52
yeah. And I think back then, I think Jason gave you some context to put things in there as well. And I'm pretty sure that came from other people. That came from because he'd been the manager for a while, so I don't know. Yeah, sorry,
QQuinn - Attorney50:08
there's another comment about lenders won't land on property if the community has more than 40% rentals. So there is a difference between condominiums and community associations. You guys are not a condo, but to have government backed loans in a condo, you do have to be HUD approved. And yeah, there's if your rental number is high, you can't get HUD approved in community associations like yours. That's not necessarily an issue, but individual lenders, yeah, they can, they can evaluate that again. If it's a government backed loan, yeah, if it's a high number of rentals, you you lose that as an ability to do it. But we have, I mean, we have communities that they just say, we don't want to be HUD approved. We don't, we don't want that because we want people that are coming in that can put more money down, and then we don't have to worry about them getting delinquent and other things. So it's, again, it's people have different perspectives and what they'd like to see and like what Scott says, you may be in, you know, you may not want something, but if 67% of the owners want a certain way, you may get out voted on that.
SScott Reid51:27
Yeah, so the next one is a renter. I don't Dave, I don't understand what kinds of things can a renter cause the owner doesn't referring to the fee. I don't, I actually don't understand that. Maybe you can elaborate.
QQuinn - Attorney51:39
Um, go back to the the $200 one. Maybe I don't remember, yeah, I think that's what it is where, if, if it's a rental, they can charge up to a $200 fee. Oh, I see. So. So, I mean, the most common one that you deal with is, is really, managers need to know who's living there, right? So if there's if they need to contact them for any reason, or if they're, you know, parking issue, they want to have the contact information. And so it's a basic thing, just as tenants change, hey, there's an administrative fee of updating that. Of course, tenants may stay there for years. So hey, why is that fair to charge 200 a year? That's actually something that maybe changed in the law this year. Again, we've been talking to what was the Apartment Association and and that's an issue that they have, and it may move to more of a move in, move out fee, where that's done, or it's still some things we're negotiating. There are other examples where it's tenants cause more of an issue. There's community, a community in North Salt Lake, where the manager has come and just dealing with a certain tenant on things. Some of it's not to where they can go and find the owner, but there's been additional administrative costs of they said over $2,000 that they're billing the association. And so, again, I haven't delved into it to see what all those are with that manager. But that is one of the things that they've, you know, they've kind of put out there to say we need to be able to charge
SScott Reid53:20
those. I know, as far as the decks go again, it's one of those things where I and the board has agreed with me on this. That's one of the reasons why Josh is sent out the pool, or the, you know, the pool, as far as you know what people want to see. But the decks, we will put that to the majority vote as well, because that is another item that I think people are, you know, are looking at one of the things I do know. And Quinn, maybe you can address this. So the deck, the decks to the town homes. They are connected to the structure. So when it talks about the decks, even though some have them and some don't, because it is attached to the structure. Would there be as far as the ccnrs and normality goes, if the decks needed to be replaced, and it was a sub structure that needed to be replaced, would the HOA Is that something the HOA typically would take care of because it is attached to the building
QQuinn - Attorney54:21
for this. Are you talking about the decks with the 18 units that have those decks? Yeah, so, so, and there are provisions in there, right there. We call it deck assessments. So those individual owners, they're responsible, if the HOA does the repair, they can, they can, you know, assess those particular owners specifically. But decks are one of those that it's really driven by your your documents. Some communities say, again, going back to those four concepts, right, ownership, use, maintenance. So even though it's those, decks are common area, or limited common area, and that's technically owned by the Association. The association doesn't have to do the maintenance. They can. They can in their covenant and say, homeowner, you get the benefit of that, you're going to maintain it. Or, yeah, because it, it ties into the building. The HOA says, we have an interest in making sure that is repaired and done in a way that it preserves the structural and integrity of the building right? And so it can be we will do we will bring somebody in do those repairs, but we're going to assess you for that, but we're overseeing it to make sure it's done properly. So but some communities even say limited common area. If there's decks, some have them, some don't. It's going to be a common expense. All the owners pay for that. So again, it's just what is in your covenants, what the owners want. You know, again, 67% so you can, I mean, that that's one you can put it how you guys want. So, okay,
SScott Reid56:03
well now, I mean, in that case, I think it's something we should ask everybody, being one thing I would like to bring up when it comes to the decks, I understand not everybody has them, but you know, one of the issues with that is that it is connected to your neighbors, and I don't think we want to chance any issues. But I think that is one of those things that have been brought up for both sides. So I think we'll bring that to the vote the poll as well, to get people's input on it.
QQuinn - Attorney56:30
About fences, you know, yeah,
SScott Reid56:32
the fences, I'm not familiar with the community. I don't know if with those fences, I mean, somebody who has been a part of the community, were they there? I've heard a lot of different wording behind the fences. They weren't there and the owner put them up. I I don't even know. So, so I don't know. As far as Quinn, I mean, the fence is, what do we do it? I don't know what's in there. Now,
QQuinn - Attorney56:59
uh, let me see. I mean, it is similar to the decks you can, you can, sorry, I'm doing a search on here to see, but you can say Ho is going to pay and maintain them all, or those owners that have them, you know, for their they're going to pay for that. And, I mean, we do that for communities too. And then if it's a fence, you know, that's shared between those two owners. Shared fence. They have to share it equally, right? So
SScott Reid57:30
let's see. So it looks like the fence, the fences have been there. So, yeah, I don't know. It's one of those things where I think the reasoning why those came up was because, you know, the idea was that if it was shared, if it was a shared, like common space, that was going to, you know, be under the liability the HOA, but if it wasn't we, I think it got removed because of that. The Someone asked about the the funding, the funding earmark for the deck repairs. I'll answer that one. It we used a lot of that money here a few years ago when we were repairing the decks. So obviously we're we have to repair the decks now. I don't know what the status is of them, but that's something that we can probably address offline if you guys want to email the board, and maybe we come look at it and see what needs to be done. I know that the contractor that we did have to do the decks, yeah, the contractor that was doing it, I don't think did a good job. So it may be one of those things where we kind of have to go back, and it wasn't, yeah, I don't know. I mean, it's one of those things where we may have to go back and have the contractor look at it again. I know we were having a hard time getting any response from that contractor, even when we asked them to come back and repair them so but we can talk about that offline and see what we can do about fixing that. Because obviously, what I don't want to do is I don't want to say, Hey, you're responsible for your deck, and it's an it's in that it's in bad shape. Now, I would much rather repair the decks as an HOA while it's in there, and get it to a state where at least you're happy with it, and then maybe go back and when the ccnrs are rewritten. If that's what everybody decides to do, that's my personal feeling on it. I don't know what the rest of the board wants to do, but it would have to be voted
QQuinn - Attorney59:28
on. Yeah. I mean, I'm seeing some of those comments too. Of saying, hey, the contractor that came in and did it did a terrible job. It's worse. I mean, I haven't gone and looked at those, so I'm not saying, Yeah, that's true or not. Again, you can address it a couple of ways. One, it's, Hey, the HOA just oversees it. They make the decision who's doing the repairs. The flip side of that is really saying, okay, owners, you can choose the contractor that's going to come in and do it, but us as the association, we can have, you know, we can, we can have certain benchmarks, or, you know, requirements you've got to submit, you know, an architectural plan, and we can look at it and then make, we want to make sure is it going to look good, or at least, kind of up to the same standard the contractor that you're bringing in, do they have a license? Are they insured or bonded? You know, some of those things. And just making sure that it's we want to make sure they're reputable. And if something goes, you know, south, you know, we can, we can look at them, right? But then saying, okay, homeowner, as long as they're checking those boxes. You picked them, you know, let them do the work, right? So,
SScott Reid01:00:42
yeah, okay. Well, I mean, hope that answers some of those questions. I kind of want to get back to the CC and arts. I know a comment was made, and Quinn, you can answer to this. Some of these comments on the sides, again, this red line, and just to be clear, you have the items that are crossed out in the current CC and ours, or the red line version you gave us that was removed, right? And then the the items that are in red were the replacement of that, right, correct? Yeah, okay. Now, some of
QQuinn - Attorney01:01:13
the strike through that is the language that we're we were deleting from your original or existing ones, right? So
SScott Reid01:01:21
some of it was, some, some, some of it had been now the wording that was used to replace,
SScott Reid01:01:34
or how was that, just to clarify what the original text was saying. So
QQuinn - Attorney01:01:38
it depends on where you're at. So if you go down the ones that have the comments that usually saying, Hey, this is incorporating language from the statute. For the most part. That is using essentially the language in the statute. I mean, some may change, like in your documents, we define the term dwelling right, where the statute may not use that to it may say unit or something. So we may bring in some of those. But then other language, like, again, on the religious and holiday signs, the language there is taken right from the statute, right. So there may be a few others that hey again, just to fit your documents. You know we we may not have used it verbatim from the statute, but it's it. We're usually pulling that from the statute. For the most part. Have that comment on the statute. The language is being put in there. Because either that was what a prior board was saying, Hey, we think this is what our community needs, or we even said, Hey, here's kind of best practices in the industry that we see, and we were putting it in and kind of like this, like the board is saying, Okay, if that's kind of what you see in the industry, well, let's put it in if our homeowners don't like it, we can. We'll pull it out, right? And then if there were some ambiguities, then we were putting that in to clarify.
SScott Reid01:03:12
So one thing that was asked, and this is with a question that came in from an email, was, as far as So, just so everybody is aware, and this is, this has even been brought up, but the the new ccnrs does, in fact, relinquish liability from the single family homes to the town homes for special assessments. And so somebody, you know, one of the things that was asked is, and Quinn, maybe you're better equipped to answer this, can, can our HOA split? Someone was asking if they could split into two HOAs, one for the town homes, one for the single family homes. Is that, is that an option?
QQuinn - Attorney01:03:54
You can, it's you can. You can do that. You know, this service area concept that we've put in is essentially trying to do that right? If you're splitting, it's going to be, it's going to be more expensive to prepare some of these things. And it's not a given. You know, you've got to go really, if you're well, if you want to do it right, you're going to have to go even to all your lenders and recognize, hey, we're pulling these out of this community and then subjecting them back to covenants in two different communities. That's very hard to do right, getting everybody to approve that. What some do is kind of cut corners a little bit and just say, we know we're not going to get everybody for that, because that is one you're going to need everybody because you're pulling it up, putting back in and others like, yeah, we're just going to go with the 67 right? We're going to roll the dice a little bit. You can. I mean, there's you're exposing yourself to liability that somebody could challenge that, and then you're working, even, you know, typically, with the municipality, to amend your plot, yours, you already have those different plots. So I'm not saying you would have to go do that. That is one benefit with how it was developed. But by doing the service area, that town home service area. That's essentially what we're doing without going through that process of dividing it, but you're still all one community. But those really the expenses and the regulation for a lot of town homes. It's being paid by the town homeowners. If you did split, since the the clubhouse and the pool are on the plat for the town homes, we would do a across an easement and use agreement between the single families with the town homes so that they could use it. The single family are still going to have to pay a fee to the town home unit for some of those things. So, so, yeah, that would, that would be there, leaving as one as is, there is some risk, and I've talked to your agent, I think it's been a while, because we've been working on it for years. I think you guys have Le Monde Woods right at Century West, I think
SScott Reid01:06:19
for the insurance, yeah, or, I think you're right, we just updated, or we just renewed, okay,
QQuinn - Attorney01:06:25
but I had a conversation with him about some of this, where staying as one and because you have to have that, that different type of insurance for Your town home area, right? Because you're, you're, you have shared walls. And so the statute says you have to have this there. There is the risk of, well, what if there is a catastrophe? Right on that, on that town hall area, or, you know, every there's an accident, somebody passes away, there could be large claims. Well, they're bringing the claim against the HOA as a whole, not just the town homes, right? So it's a, it's possible, but it's, you know, I think we can recognize the risk of that is pretty remote, but it is possible. And in talking to your insurance agent again, he was saying, Yeah, that could be there, but if you have your insurance policy at a high enough limit, you know the individuals are not going to be exposed to liability per se on that. So what you would want to do, if that's a real concern, you you increase your your policy limit, right? Instead of, like, 2 million, put up to five or 10, well, the premium is going to go up. And so that's an expense you're gonna have to share, but, but that's the way. Again, that risk is there by staying as one. I think it's pretty small. And if you're that concerned, you just you up your insurance policy.
SScott Reid01:08:05
So before we go on to some of these others, this is the same I'm just going to ask this question, because this person couldn't attend. But the other part of this is in regards to the rental caps we've talked about, as far as putting that out to a vote. But one of the things the comments they made was by, by, by limiting the rental caps, or having the rental caps in the town homes. Does this open the HOA or expose the HOA to potential fair housing lawsuits?
QQuinn - Attorney01:08:37
Because of a difference between,
SScott Reid01:08:41
you know, I think because, because we would have it in the we would have it inside of, we would have a cap in the town homes and no cap in the single family homes,
QQuinn - Attorney01:08:49
yeah, well, and I saw somebody saying, hey, it's disparate treatment. Well, the Fair Housing applies. It's got to be a protected class, right for there to be discrimination, and so the, you know, just having that, that distinction, well, having a single family versus a town home, that's not a protected class, right? And it's so I don't see how you would have that as a claim. You know, if you were saying, Hey, if you're from this nationality or this gender, you know, something like that, you can't rent. But with what you're doing, it's really just, it's this area, single family, you can rent town homes, no. And there's also logic behind that, right? Because single family their space with noise. I mean, people can say, hey, you know, renters, they're not, they're not as conscious about, you know, the neighbors, because they're not worried about a long term relationship. You know, trying to be good neighbors when you're sharing walls. Yeah, some of that, there could be more of a nuisance issue that comes up. So you'd want to limit that. But I don't, I don't see a Fair Housing Act coming from that. We have other associations that even take like neighborhoods just because of how it's set up. And it's, Hey, this neighborhood, you guys can rent this many, you can rent this many, you can rent this many. It's, yeah, I don't. People may not like it, but I don't see that that's coming up, if any discrimination claim under the Fair Housing Act. Okay,
SScott Reid01:10:25
again, I'm just, you know, everybody has to understand. I'm just reading what somebody wrote in. So it's not my it's not my question. Um, I think, okay, so I think I covered just about everything here, and I think we got most people's quick is, did we not answer something from somebody that's on the call? I mean, we went through a lot of it here. I
QQuinn - Attorney01:10:49
mean, there were some comments. I think we probably addressed it. And townhomes pay a higher fee than the single family they do, because the HOA maintains exterior the private road in the town home area, single family homes don't have that, right? They they pay for their own exterior maintenance. So
SScott Reid01:11:09
let's talk a little bit about snow removal. Because I don't think anybody's asked about that, but I know that's come up and little there's some people that are up in arms about that, that being inside of the HOA or the ccnrs. And I just want to explain that that doesn't necessarily mean that we are going to stop snow removal to the driveways and to the doors. It just means that the HOA is no longer responsible by their ccnrs to provide that if, if that is the means that the board wants to take,
QQuinn - Attorney01:11:42
yeah? And so that's, that's a good point, right? It's like, first of all, snow rewild doesn't apply to the single family because they're, you know, they take care of their own. The roads are public, so the municipalities do it, private roadway and the town homes gate choice paying for that? Yeah, we've got it so that the sidewalks, the HOA is doing, the sidewalks, the driveways, if you're not doing that, the homeowners can do it, but the board, and that's where you come in, we put in what's called the benefited assessment, right? Because you'll have some people in the town homes, they're like, hey, I'll go out. I'll shovel my own driveway, right? I don't want to pay for that. Well, others may say, I don't want to touch a show, right, or a snow blower, whatever. I want somebody else to do it. So if, if, if the HOA saying we're going to do it from the street and the sidewalk our, you know, the person we're hiring to do the snow removal, they're willing to do driveways, and so you can opt in for that. And we're going to ask our, you know, our company that we're doing, how much are you charging to just do somebody's driveway? You put that out there. If you want to take part in this service, this is what the fee is going to be. They can opt in. And then if they're doing it, you charge those owners that amount as a benefited assessment that they've opted in to get.
SScott Reid01:13:08
So there's a couple other things here. I'm just going off this other let's see job covers for water maintenance.
SScott Reid01:13:27
Yeah, again. I mean, I understand, Patrick, what you're saying. Again, I think these items that have come up, we just need to see what everybody else's input is on it, as far as the pool being sent, right? I mean, as soon as we can, we'll, we'll get this out to everybody, and again, nothing's going to be voted on until we come up with the final draft based off of everybody's input on on these items. I
Unknown01:14:12
I personalize
SScott Reid01:14:17
this, okay, I mean, that's again, the decks I understand. We'll just have to put that out to to get everybody's input on it. And, and I think that's probably the best approach to it, because there's, there's say in both directions on this. And so let's just, let's just get everybody's input and, you know, let's not, let's not, you know, deem everything is, is being set in these current CC and ours? Let's, let's get everybody's input so we can make a better decision
QQuinn - Attorney01:14:49
as you, as you send out that poll. I mean, with the decks, right? It may be, Hey, is it just those 18 they pay for their own deck, or does the whole Association pay when that's there? Because I get it. I mean, that person makes a good point. Hey, it's, you know, it's kind of a very protects the others. You could even put in that option of saying, hey, is there a split somehow, right? Hoa is going to cover part of it, and then the homeowners are covering another part. I mean, you know, you can craft that different ways. So
SScott Reid01:15:19
I'm going to jump into one of these here. Let's see 30k the one that somebody was asking about, restrict x, of 7245,
SSpeaker 101:15:40
I'm the right to actually. So this 7245,
SScott Reid01:15:48
somebody just wanted to know clarification on that, does it? Does it for areas up to 60 days? I mean,
QQuinn - Attorney01:16:01
yeah, so when it's four or five, I mean, the four was, what was there, because we added to it's really, it'll be the 7.2 point five, okay? And again, most of that language is really what's already in yours, right? I mean, what we did was, I mean, I'll explain what it is, but, I mean, we took out management committee and put in board, because that's management committee is a condo term. Board is, you know, the non condo projects, like, like yours, capitalizing the defined term. So that's really the changes to that. We didn't, we didn't substantively change this provision. So it's okay, hold on. I'm just reading it.
QQuinn - Attorney01:16:49
Okay. So what that's saying is, you know, the the board, if people are delinquent, or if, you know, if there's, you know, some of the reason, perhaps violations behavior, whatever the board does have the right to suspend an owner's right to use the recreational facilities, and if you're spending the owner, then obviously, you know near their tenants or occupants of that that unit or lot would would be suspended. So,
SScott Reid01:17:24
okay, I mean, that's, that was just the question on that. I
QQuinn - Attorney01:17:29
mean, I will say there's one I get it on the assessments. I mean, that first part that's there that you've had in there, it doesn't really limit it, right? It just, it's kind of saying a the board can just suspend it for any reason. I mean, yeah, I kind of, I don't like how that was drafted either. I mean, again, we were leaving the original but you know, you can put in there where it's like, hey, certain things have to happen right before it's being suspended. So it can't just be, Hey, Scott doesn't get along with somebody like, you know what? That guy's a jerk. Let's just spend his right to use the pool. So
SScott Reid01:18:11
let's see. Okay, I think I answered. I mean, there's a lot of them that came through, but most of them were answered on this email.
QQuinn - Attorney01:18:20
There is one that just came through to people who don't pay. Should be allowed to use the facilities. Yeah, that's allowed in the statute that if they are, you know, if they're at least 60 days behind, you can suspend their right to use the pool of the clubhouse.
SScott Reid01:18:40
You can do that. The as far as the feedback of the pool, yeah, I mean, it would be what we don't want to get into is, I understand everybody has reasons why you do or you don't want something, and we'll never get through this if we, if everybody wants to go and give their input to everybody around them. I don't think we'll ever get this through. So I understand, like, you want your input, and I think that's a good idea, because ultimately, I think another pool we can put out, another pool that has your input. I don't know that that inputs going to be publicized to everybody, but it certainly would be given to the board, and that's something we definitely can do. What about renters? Sorry,
QQuinn - Attorney01:19:25
real quick, somebody did a follow up. What about renters? I'm assuming that's if people don't pay, you know, you can suspend their rights to use the pool. Well, that's if the owner's not paying and you're suspending the owner's right? That does go down to, you know, the tenants. So,
SScott Reid01:19:45
okay, um, let's see, oh,
QQuinn - Attorney01:19:51
or maybe, did you Yeah, maybe they're commenting on, you know, letting people in, people who just let people in to use the pool, then yeah, and I agree with that. Sam, hey, it's hard to regulate. It is unless you've got a camera there and you can identify who's doing it, and if they're doing that, you can. I wouldn't put that necessarily in the covenants. I would put that in your rules, because then it can be more flexible and but if people are doing that, it it subjects and defines. So if you, if you're noticing, hey, these people keep doing it, you give them a violation warning letter. If they keep doing it, you can find them. And
SScott Reid01:20:30
we do that just, just so everybody knows that does happen. My I live right across the street from the pool, and in the summer I probably out. I mean, I used to go kick them out, but now I just started calling the RPD on them, and that seemed to have stopped people from hopping the fence. It's a liability when they hop the fence and they're swimming in our pool, especially when it's dark, but when people do let others in, we are notified. If any of you have any issues with that, you can email the board. We're not going to tell anybody who did it. We'll just simply look at the cameras and find out who. Will find out who did it, and we will, we will send them a letter. We can typically tell me when I go look at the cameras, I'll look at the backlog, and if someone badged in, and then they've let a bunch of other people in won't go through and send them a warning letter, and after a warning we'll start finding them, because that's, that's something that I think it's it can be frustrating for the community, especially when those people aren't paying for those amenities.
QQuinn - Attorney01:21:34
So there, you know, Scott, you said you call the police. Looks like Sam had a follow up. You know, we call the police immediately too. Yes. I mean, especially if you are seeing people jump the fence and they're outside your community, I would because it is one, they're trespassing. Two, if they get hurt, it's liability to you guys. They you know the the police department may say, Well, are you a board member? Are you part of the governing body? Right? I think that's just kind of depend on the individual officer or dispatch that they may say, We need somebody who's there making the decisions for the HOA to do this. But absent that, if you see the people trespassing and jump in there, yeah, there's nothing that prevents you from doing it.
SScott Reid01:22:18
And yes, anybody can call if you notice someone in the pool when it's closed, by all means, you're more than welcome to call the police. Yeah, they'll they'll come over there. They'll probably get a hold of me, because now they know me, and I'll probably go over there and just be the voice of of you know what those people are doing. But by all means, it's a community pool. It's all of ours, and we should take care of it. And if we notice that there's something in there that's that we shouldn't be, you know, that shouldn't be there, that's damaging to the pool, something, someone's got to say something. And like I said, as a board, I don't mind being the bad guy. So if you do have an issue, rather than you confronting somebody, it just works better when we can do it as a board than an individual. So if you do notice something, just email the board, and we just ask, for you know, if you have photos or any proof, we're happy to go in and take a look at it. I think we've been pretty proactive on that. Anyway, going back to the ccnrs, is there anything anybody else has as far as the legal question for Quinn, with the drafting of the CC and ours that we have, because I know I think we've covered most of them, most of the things that I have, as far as the questions that came to me, I think I've answered. I got answers for
QQuinn - Attorney01:23:39
part two of things I wanted to make sure we touched on. I think we've got most of them. Probably the only other one I'm seeing from my notes is, if you go down to the bylaws, and that's just the compensation or of your board, right? Not composition, sorry, not compensation, composition of what it's made up of Scott, if you go down to 5.4 of the bylaws, the bylaws, yeah, I think they're what Exhibit B or C, I can't remember right now, essentially, just your five member of your five member board, it's three. Should be from the town homes, two from the single family,
Unknown01:24:23
right? Yeah, was that before this one?
QQuinn - Attorney01:24:27
No, keep going down. Yeah, keep going. Oh, is Exhibit D. So go to 5.4 and by the way, you're not seeing the red lines in your bylaws, because yours were so bad, we just scrapped them. And, you know, started from they were, they were pretty bad. So this is just saying, hey, there's five. It's going to be, you know, three from the town homes, two from a single family. But if, for some reason, you don't have enough candidates from either one, then you could have, you know, more than you know. You could have four from the town homes. For instance, if the single family owners are like, I'm not doing that so well.
SScott Reid01:25:09
Look, let me ask you a question. Quinn, what if we have an issue where nobody wants to be on the board and we have to abide by the number of directors? What happens?
QQuinn - Attorney01:25:21
I um, in the most extreme example. So because, again, we take direction from the board, right? Your manager does, too. If there's nobody there to give us direction and nobody wants to step up. The most extreme example is the as the association's attorney, we have to file. Well, we don't have to. We could just say, Hey, we're firing you. We're out, but we would file basically a lawsuit with the court and say, Judge, you have to basically appoint people to the board, like by court order. We've never had to do that. We've really only had one where it got to that because there was everybody else resigned, there was the Board President left, and he said, I've been doing this for 15 years. I'm done. When we explained what the process was, he went around and got people to get on the board, right? But yeah, that's where it's at,
SScott Reid01:26:18
okay? And I only ask that because this last time we did. It's getting harder and harder to find people who will be on the board. So any of you on this call, I highly suggest you volunteer. It's not always the best job, but we do need people from the community to partake of that, and
QQuinn - Attorney01:26:35
your community is not unique to that, right? Yeah, it's a volunteer, and you're often getting treated not so well. So it's, there's many communities that don't want to, you know, people don't want to volunteer. There's, there's predictions that they say, Hey, in about 1015, years, the industry may say you're going to have professional boards where it's people, that's what they do. That's their job. They'll just be on boards, kind of like you see with corporations, right? They'll be on boards for several HOAs, and they get paid for that, will not sure, but
SScott Reid01:27:18
in regards to parking. So this came up because inside of here we have the, one of the things in our CC and ours is the allowance, or the ability for the HOA to provide parking permits that that I'll address that. You know, it came up because it's one of the, probably the hottest topics, especially in the winter time in
SScott Reid01:27:48
time parking for every single town home to have a spare piece of parking spot. So that's kind of the reason why that came up, and to allow the HOA the board, to attempt to manage it. Does it mean that the board is going to adopt those you know? It doesn't necessarily mean the board is going to adopt the permits, you know, right away, or unless it's, it's absolutely necessary, but that is inside the the rules. And I think it's just basically, we have the parking that. I mean, obviously, in the age in the town homes, there's no parking on the street, but we have, like, the rules of parking as far as how long a car can sit inside the stalls. And then we have the ability for the HOA to permit parking in that community. And I think that's, that's really what it is, right? And pretty sure that's the only
QQuinn - Attorney01:28:40
Yeah, and, and there's, I mean, again, another way you can draft it. We've done it is so again, the covenants. It takes a vote of everybody. It's hard to change the rules. The board can just change those. Some communities say, just put in our covenants that just say, hey, parking can be regulated pursuit of the rules adopted by the Board, and then that way you can be flexible and change things as you want. The downside is, you've got a five member board who can be really strict on a parking if they want, right? So it's okay, well, if they're too heavy handed, they're going to get voted out. But, but that is, that is something you can do is just say, just say, it'll be by the rules, and then we can, you know, as things kind of change or adapt, we'll put it in the rules and we'll change
SScott Reid01:29:31
them, yeah, and that's kind of what I wanted to get at. Now, as far as the the when the these will be voted on, I'll kind of give us, kind of reiterate that there is, and one of the confusions was, we talked about the 16 versus the majority vote, and when I say majority, we will send out a poll to the community outlining some of these hot topic items to decide for whether we need to change it, whether we need to remove it or whether it stays in. And I think we need to be better in wording on that. So we'll send that out, and we will that way you guys can can take a look at it, and we can get a better grasp on what the community as a whole wants. So that's that's what that and then after that is done, we will send out a final draft to everybody in the community, give you some time to look at it, and some time that we kind of go back and forth, and then at that point we'll push out the votes. So that's kind of the idea behind that. Quinn, you said something about 60 days is that when we start it versus when it ends?
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    RCC CC&R Updates Meeting 1/9/25: Otter Voice Meeting Notes