Building a System of Belonging + Making Technology More Human - Meet the Human Stack - Jonathan McCoy, CFRE, Becky Endicott, CFRE and Tim Lockie

10:13PM Sep 21, 2022

Speakers:

Julie Confer

Becky Endicott

Jonathan McCoy

Jonathan McCoy

Tim Lockie

Keywords:

nonprofits

tech

stack

human

people

tim

organization

create

drive

data

belonging

digital transformation

work

world

friends

conversation

technology

team

salesforce

understand

technology alone can't solve the challenges nonprofits face. And that's why neon one provides software that empowers you to manage constituents all while giving you the resources and support you need to connect to what matters most your people and their passions. Learn more about how neon one is helping nonprofits create stronger connections by visiting neon one.com/we are for good. Hey, I'm John.

And I'm Becky.

And this is the We Are For Good podcast.

Nonprofits are faced with more challenges to accomplish their missions and the growing pressure to do more, raise more and be more for the causes that improve our world.

We're here to learn with you from some of the best in the industry, bringing the most innovative ideas, inspirational stories, all to create an impact uprising.

So welcome to the good community. We're nonprofit professionals, philanthropist, world changers and rabid fans who are striving to bring a little more goodness into the world.

So let's get started. Hey, Becky.

Hey, John, favorite human alert today on the podcast.

We've been counting down to bring Tim on the podcast. He's finally here.

Okay, everybody, like we met the most incredible human earlier this year. And it was kind of one of those serendipitous moments where I was at a town John, I'm not sure what was going on. That was like so much frenzy. And then there was just like this piece. When we met, Tim Locky and Tracy cross snag. And there was just something about the way that they understood the human side of the way that nonprofits need tech in a different way. They understood that we are kind of a species that is tech illiterate, we're scared of tech, we've been bruised by tech in the past, in like all nonprofit professionals who are out there, you all know what I'm talking about. Like it is an intimidating factor to move into something that you just don't know about. But friends, these are the things we need to help improve our lives, our mental health, the way that we engage with donors. And Tim is the guy who is going to teach us how to have what he calls the human stack. You've heard the tech stack, we are taking it up ratcheting it up, I wouldn't even say it's 2.0. It's like the 3.0 of the tech stack well, but before we dive into this incredible conversation, I want to introduce you to our Montana friend Tim lucky. He is the CEO and founder of the human stack and the co host of the incredible Wyatt matters podcast. And he has had a long history in the nonprofit world with technology. And he's just felt his life intertwine between his pull to want to do mission work one of Chase purpose. And he just believes that digital transformation should be affordable and scalable with nonprofits from all sizes. And so he's truly obsessed with this human stack. And you can hear about this all on their podcast. But we're just so delighted to take his 20 years of organizational experience, his background of being a volunteer, a youth worker, a camp counselor, a music instructor, a foster parent, a getaway driver for teens in danger, a board member of finance, I mean, look at this, it goes on and on. But what I'm trying to tell you is even though Tim has these incredible technical logical capabilities, his heart is truly in the for purpose space, and he is trying to build the bridge in between and today we're going to learn about it. So Tim Locky get in our house.

Oh my gosh, that is thank you so much for reminding me who I am. Like, I know, I know. And I know I probably am supposed to move on. But I can't introduce myself like that. That's just thank you so much like

what it guys feel so human, right?

We're humanizing it as well.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you for that. And thank you for the work that you're doing. I love the podcast, obviously. But I just enjoy you as people so much and have been excited. I'm excited about putting the ideas out in the world. But I'm just as excited to see you both because it's been a while and you both inspire me and Julie to all three of you do so. Thanks. Thanks for having me.

Yes. cannot forget our unicorn. I mean, I just I just think the journey is very interesting that you've been on in your career. And of course, as we always do, we want to go back to the very beginning. Because you don't just become a getaway driver for teens, you know, or a foster parent by chance. Take us back like two little Tim, tell us your journey. And what led you to this place today.

I I'm from Montana, and so like born and raised in Bozeman, Montana, and I couldn't wait to get out and now I'm back. So I spent 20 years away. Most of that time was in San Francisco and I wanted to travel the World I wanted to see, see new people, meat, meat things, I wanted to make a difference. And I think a lot of that honestly was misguided, very, very well intentioned but misguided. And in a lot of evangelical missionary kind of work that I have some mixed feelings about and some pride in. And, but that's really where it started for me was how do we make the world better. And that has that really has been the core of what I have always tried to be about, I haven't done it very well, for a lot of my life. But I really do want to be about that and, and have found that my contribution wasn't being a influencers, speaker and all of that it really has been around helping nonprofits just get their it together, you know. And so that's, that's where I got my start, I realized there are not a lot of businesses that know how to work in the space. And with nonprofits, they don't understand how decisions are made. They understand the economics of nonprofits, they didn't know how to, like they don't know that they may not be hearing from a decision maker what they think they are. And so I took that knowledge and put it into a consulting firm called now what matters. And and then in 2019, and 2019, a guy put a friend of mine named Brian COMAR, put a slide up on a screen that just kind of ruined by business. And it just it was really simple as a statistic by every action put out in 2018. That said, 90% of nonprofits click data, less than 40% of them use that data to make decisions. And I don't know why, like I've seen a lot of the stats, or I believe LG is very believable, right? It's very believable. Yeah. And this one, this one was mine, I was at a Salesforce partner conference. And I was looking around the room at other consulting competitors, but they're really friends. Like it's a it's a tight knit community. And, and I realized, like, this is not about software. This is not about nonprofits. This is about the leaders who take the conversion of that data and turn it into decision making. And we're failing at it. Like we have a more than 60% failure rate at the thing that's ours to do. And, and I it just, I just couldn't keep doing it. And so I spent I've spent since then that was in summer of 2019. I've spent working the maze backwards to the to the exit on what does it look like to solve that issue as consultants? What does that mean? And so that that's that's a little my background, I also studied economics, I lived in a Christian commune. I, you know, it's been a really interesting journey has done a lot of things.

Tim, is the guy you want at your dinner party, because you've got stories. Yeah,

when the apocalypse happens, like, what goes through?

But I mean, let me just say, you know, we talk about tech a lot on the podcast. And it's great. Like, I mean, we all believe in these tools. And we love that there's been so much inflow of that. But I love that this conversation where you waive this Boehner is like, that is not enough, like the problem is not that we don't have the tools right now. It's like, it's an internal thing. Like we need to figure out what growth we need to have. And we talked about growth, mindset, leadership, tons on the podcast, threaded through all these episodes, because it's more about how we show up as people in the openness, we have to create teams that embrace change, and innovation and all that stuff. So I love that you put your flag firmly there, and you're going to take us into this human stack. And I want to just kind of tee you up for this. Because when I heard that concept, and if you're not familiar with the concept of tech stack, you know, that's what the geeky person is gonna say, what's your tech stack? It's like, what are all the tech tools you use in your office that are connected? When you said human stack? It just like clicked for me. And I want to I want to give you the space to kind of talk us through Why do you think that's where you want to focus and put energy as we kind of think about this kind of two 3.0 conversation around tech?

Yeah, the way the way I say it to my mom, which is my test on whether I actually understand it. And not. That's not a measurement of her competency, but really my communication on it. The way I explain it to my mom is if you think about technology, as the car industry, so Salesforce, Microsoft Blackbaud, neon one, all of these, all of these CRMs and other pieces of software in the tech stack, if you think about the those as car manufacturers, the companies that make those car manufacturers, and then you think about partners like now matters. That is a dealership so nonprofits come to the dealership and they want to order a car. And a lot of times those dealerships are just functionally extensions of that particular car manufacturer, you know, like the Toyota dealership, or whatever. And I was Salesforce dealership for years and years, that's really where I got my start. And so nonprofits would come to us, and we would help them order and configure their car. And then they would wreck it driving down to the parking lot, because the issue was always that they didn't know how to drive. Not the it wasn't the car. And the more, the more starting in 2019, the more I just studied, like, what is going wrong, the more I realized, I think one of the main core issues here is the quality of drivers, that nonprofits don't know how to drive tech. And, and that's a social construct, that's actually an issue around people.

And what I mean by that is, it's embarrassing and bad. Like it's just considered societally bad to wreck your car, or to drive it into somebody else's car like that is a shame inducing action. And sometimes that shame was accompanied with tickets, and you can't drive anymore, and all sorts of other things. So it's like really serious. And so you hide that. So what we have are nonprofits who don't know how to drive, they may not know that they don't know how to drive, they certainly are hiding that from themselves from their donors from each other. Because it's shame based. And so one of the, one of the core core things I started to look at is, you know, in architecture, you're always dealing with gravity, right? So you have to contend with gravity and make sure it's all supported. And on the tech stack, there's a binary, you know, that is that gravity, but the binary for the tech stack is true false is all zeros and ones right on the tech stack. Or maybe people don't know that. So at whenever you're looking at a pixel on your screen, whenever you're looking at Excel, or anything else, everything digital, goes through microchip. And it's all broken down into zeros and ones and just massive amounts of true false statements to come up with an answer on is this true or false? That is the core base piece of technology on the tech stack. Humans, on the other hand, have an in out binary? Am I in or out? Do I belong to this group or not? It's all about belonging. And so at the end of the day, we have to look at these two stacks from completely different lenses. Because what drives humans is not whether we're accurate or not, like we are on the tech stack, what drives humans is whether we belong or not. And so when you when, when an organization does not drive, like they they wreck their car, that's in your out moment, right? Or if you haven't logged in to your system, because you forgot your password, don't know where the link is, which happens all the time that says like, you feel like you're out, right. And so you don't admit that. And so what you say when people ask for the report is the system doesn't work? Well, you don't say is system doesn't work, because I never log into it and put any information there because I do everything in my spreadsheet, you know, and so functionally, yes, the system doesn't work. But the reason it doesn't work is not because people don't use it, it's because people feel ashamed about not knowing how to. And then to just ratchet it up. One more is not individual. This is this is not like a car that you're driving. This is like a ladder truck, you know, there's big fire engines that have a steering wheel in the front and the back because you're coordinating data with other people. And so it's not just you driving the car, you have to have your whole team oriented around doing this. This is this is really challenging. For any organization, that would be a challenge for nonprofits with no capacity funding related to this, you know, for the past few decades. Yeah, this is a very high lift. And it's much easier and much more acceptable socially to say the system doesn't work and to get funding around the system doesn't work than to say we don't know how to drive. Because that actually feels that feels a little threatening to your identity. And it could threaten your funding, and people really don't want to, like pay for driver's ed, honestly. And so. John, to your question, I feel like there's such a need to start recognizing that if the issue is drivers, we need solutions that address how you drive, not just getting better, better cars, and it's better to learn is is way better to learn how to drive in a car you have than to buy a new one and learn in that right. And so it's really the order in which you do this, these actions make a huge difference. And right now the preferred action at the funding level is get a new car, when it really should be let's ensure you know how to drive because we do not drive and drive almost any car. We're talking

about the human stack and I have I have so many thoughts that I need to like opine and emote about what you just said, because I have never in my 20 years and nonprofit ever heard someone in tech, talk about build a system of belonging, that is a mindset shift. And, and I want to, I want to thank you for that one. And I want to say to every single nonprofit professional out there, you don't have to feel shame about not understanding your tech, like release that surrender it, let it go. And I will be at the head of the line to say, I have always felt shame that I don't know what to do in every situation like, especially as a marketer, because the integration of all your communications channels is absolutely essential to make sure that you're communicating accurate data that you're pulling from every resource that you're targeting and segmenting in to have someone come in and say, Actually, we're just gonna, like, teach you how to use what you have, you don't have to buy the shiny thing. Thank you for that I am. So down and into this conversation. And I want to double click a little into just the tech literacy and the digital literacy, that nonprofits need to be that driver for their tech. So talk to us about how nonprofits can work on getting educated, you know, we are a space of like, let's upskill let's learn, like how can they start to improve their staffs digital literacy, their training, getting their skills to be able to use this tech, and we would love any affordable, or creative suggestions here, because to your point, there are so many nonprofits who are on the margins with their budgets, and they just don't have the budget to bring on like maybe something at a Salesforce level, and maybe they need to make what they have work now. So I'd love your input on that. Yeah,

thanks. I mean, thanks, first of all for emoting on that and, and it is it's such a twist, for some reason to think about systems as, as human and one of one of my, like, I had to reach relearn everything I thought about technology, I had to go back and basically start all over. And one of the things that was an aha moment for me in this is that humans are, are part of the system. You know, we talked about information systems. And it's really important to understand that humans are part of that system that, you know, there's a daisy chain of, you know, data turns into information, information turns into insight and insight then turns into story. And the tech stacks really good at storing data and information, it's good to storing that data and then sifting it through. And humans are really good at insight and story. And so we have to start by understanding nonprofits need to understand this is not a VAT tool. And then us and the like, is different than that, we have to understand like this is a participatory action that we're taking. So I would say that's the first, the very first thing is an especially at the executive level, whoever is functioning as CTO. And there always is, because someone's name is on a contract to some kind of software, that's your CTO in an organization. They, they need to understand that as a Northstar. That's part of what they're doing. So I would start with mindset. And then the next thing I would say is in the human stack, there are two roles that are critical, and they lead to teams. So I have a methodology that I've worked out with this in practice on on organizations. And the the shift on on this has been to recognize that digital transformation, digital literacy doesn't happen for the whole organization all at once, is one department at a time. And the first department is the two teams that I'm talking about that that you establish. And, and they guide they learned, they learned the ropes and the in the moves, which are pretty simple, and the routines, and then they take each department through it. And there's actually multiple tech stacks, like marketing teams have like all of these stray tools that come together, that some need to integrate with other parts and some don't. But marketing teams like there's such a huge number of tools, and feels completely different than the development team who has you know, a solid CRM and a front end system. And then finance you know, like finances just trying to keep all of the the crazy data at bay so that they have one data pool that is, you know, their 990 information. So all of these teams interact with their technology a little bit differently. They each have their own culture around technology. And so the path here is to lead each team one at a time through that and I And organizations I'm I'm committed to creating this methodology in a way that it'd be, it'd be great if you could afford a consultant to help take you through that. But if not, I'm I'm wanting to create a course and I have created a course that will allow nonprofits to do this on their own and make the actions or break them into weekly and monthly actions that they take. And then these are the things that you do for the rest of your organization's life just like reconciling your bank account, have to do that same kind of maintenance with your you know, with your technology, and people just don't especially the leaders they don't know what to do with it and so they don't know how to create accountability structures around it. And and, and accountability positive accountability is the lifeblood of what the what makes the human stack work just like electricity is for the the tech stack, accountability and recognition and belonging is what drives humans towards towards increasing their skills on that.

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Okay, Tim, I love where you've taken this conversation. I love being philosophical. But I think what what this has done is that it disarms the whole tech conversation. And I think there's something here for everybody. Because when you said that people learn and connect through story and insights, like I've seen the power of that. And that's honestly why We Are For Good to have a fire in our belly to completely revolutionize and disrupt professional development, because we're humans, like, we can't just see stats and go change the world. Like we need to hear lived experience, we need to have proximity to things we need to connect, like why this really matters.

I mean, Tim just illustrated that in his bio, like it would be I mean, it would be so typical to come into our industry and say, Here's Tim, here's his 20 years, here's what he's done in the tech world and give validity based on your tech experience. That does not humanize and tell me who you are, and how you're going to connect with my mission. When I learned, you know that you're a camp counselor, and that you have done all this volunteer work with troubled teens, that takes the element to a human level. And I want that in my tech, I want that built in to my story. I want all of it. So I see that you're already doing this. Sorry, John, keep going? Well, no, I

mean, you're exactly right. I feel like that's why this is just vibing, this whole conversation because it starts at the beginning goes all the way through. But let me just lift I mean, as you're saying this, it also goes down in a practical brass tacks standpoint of how you budget for this stuff. Because these tech tools have gotten so inexpensive compared to what they provide us value wise, or can provide us value wise, that we're skipping over that we've got to build in time and money into the human aspect of this. And whether that's hiring a consultant, or creating space for these kinds of conversations and this kind of belonging to get built around the tool, then that's what we have to do as leaders in this space. So I love that you're kind of leading us in that direction. This is beautiful. Yeah.

And to that point, the moves that you make to become a driver are different moves than you make to build a good car. Right. And I think that was that was a moment I had to get to was okay, if you think about digital transformation, as a whole, and a lot of us do, like I'm in so many conversations with academics, with philanthropy, with foundations, you know, other technologists, platforms like Microsoft and Salesforce, and others think about this all the time. And we talked about digital transformation is just not very well understood. I actually feel like digital transformation is like the emperor's new clothes of the professional services world. Like we we don't realize how how little we know about it. And and so I feel like one of the most important Other ways to understand this is that digital transformation is pretty simple it is better cars and better drivers who make a better a better car, you are transforming, you know, digitally, if you make a better driver, you're transforming digitally. And so you, but the better cars are that is just digital upgrading on the tech stack, all you can do on the tech stack, is upgrade your system, you put more money into it to make it better, actually, sometimes you put more money into it to make it better. But all you can do on the tech stack is upgrade your system. And on the human stack, you digitally mature and digital maturity does not feel tangible enough, I think for very good reason. It just doesn't it hasn't felt tangible enough, because we don't have driver's ed as a service offering from professional service providers. And so that is that's the real need in the market is Driver's Ed, for technology. And, and I think that the you know, that means that you're moving an organization, one team at a time, from resistance to resilience, you know, and you're helping people get past that their feelings of shame about it, and creating an empowering them so that they feel engaged in it. And the first and most important action on that is to allow people and encourage people to complain, because complaining is a sign of hope. So it's a really simple thing help people complain. So I make it so that you can complain in less than 30 seconds on the page that you're on because I'm a DD. And if I go someplace and say, you know, this isn't working? Well, it could be two hours before I get back to what I was working on. So it has to be fast, right? And say like, I understand this thing, but there's the question, a conversation, whatever. Complaining is a sign of hope. And it's an investment. whining, isn't that helpful. But complaining if it's done specifically is great. And that creates feedback. So that's the first thing, make a list of what doesn't work. That's like, that's where it starts, what's your list of things that don't work, some of our big things that I call those uppercase problems, and some of those are small things. And I call those lowercase problems, you know, and so find your lowercase problems and see what you can do about those in the next 30 days, as a good place to start. And then the other thing to look at is your data is probably not always telling you the truth, right. And until your data tells you the truth, you can't really do anything with it you like the reason that less than 40% of nonprofits use their data to make decisions is that they would they know better their data is terrible, they shouldn't make decisions with it. And so the other action that we that we work on is to help nonprofits make their data better. And so if you do those two things, if you make your system a little bit better and make your data a little bit better, what's actually happening is that in the process, your team is learning how to drive together. So those actions are really important on the tech stack. But what they really do is they teach your team bite size, ways of learning to drive, you know that it's not going to crash the whole system. And so, and I've seen this a lot of times where organizations go try and drive a new CRM off the lot, and they didn't practice enough and old CRM had to move all the data anyway. But then so they could have spent a lot of time, you know, learning to update their data. And so then they crash it, and it's really unfortunate. It's a big, it's a big expense to have go wrong.

I mean, I feel like you've just given us rapid fire, like such good practical, you know, how do we kind of transition this, and we love the low hanging fruit ideas, because I think a lot of us do feel overburdened. And there's so much happening and there's not enough time. What are some of the you know, lowest hanging fruits for Nonprofit Tech, what could accelerate an organization, especially we love to speak to the tiny nonprofits that feel like they don't have these resources to bring on a Bougie CRM. What is something that you know, is low hanging fruit? The

first thing I would say is I created a diagnostic that that is like six questions that are really basic, basic questions. The econometrics person in me sometimes cringes about it, but it's so functional that it works really well. So for less than five minutes, you can go in and Becky, you've you filled this out this this diagnostic out, it really is just very accessible

ticket quiz. And humbling. Thank you. Yeah.

And so six questions in and and, and you can get kind of a read on like, where are we on the tech stack versus human stack? So there are three tech stack vitals and three human stack vitals that, you know, one question addresses for each of those. So the very first thing I would say is like, start by asking, you know, for as an outside perspective, like where are we in terms of our tech stack versus human stack? And so that's one like a very simple thing. You go to the, the human stack.com You find the diagnostic there and And you can take it for free. And there's a paid service for, for our team to come in and talk with you about what that looks like and review it with your team, be you probably at the end of that would have a decent sense of where you're at. And next thing I'd say is, if you like really own, the way that you drive, like, if you're not able to drive right now, as tempting as it is, don't focus on the tech stack, really focus on how do we make better drivers and just start at an executive level talking about that. And then there is a really important order that you address this in. And that's laid out, you know, in the course that I teach, and some of the other work that I do, there's a methodology around this. And so I'm looking to empower more consultants around this to learn this methodology. And I'm also creating a certification course, so that people can learn that methodology. And it really is too much to go into detail here. But but it's the the thing that is I want to just communicate is it is not complicated. It just takes a little bit of time and ongoing commitment. So this is tortoise work, not hare work. Like you can, you can do things on the tech stack. in like weeks and months, you can make those kinds of changes, but humans change in quarters and years. And so we have to set our expectations that this is a long roadmap towards success. So the sooner you start, the sooner you'll get there. And I see a lot of organizations hesitate and wait for too long, and then try and compensate on the tech stack because it moves faster. But it won't get you there if you're not not doing those actions,

your metaphor game, so strong.

Okay, so I just want to put a bow on this, because I want to release nonprofit, and I want to pump you guys up. Because if you're if you're thinking this is the year, you know, there's a lot of people that just switched over into the fiscal year in July. And it's like, we're looking at all of our KPIs we're looking at where we need to move, we're looking at the way that the world has exploded in a digital way, in the last two and a half years, what I'm hearing and I'm gonna roll this all up for Tim, is make a list start with making a list of what doesn't work for you, like look at your, your, all of your tools in your toolbox, and in look at it very objectively of what's working and what's not, you know, go to the human stack.com and do this diagnostic tool, it is like literally checking the the health of your nonprofit tech. And if I can throw We Are For Good under the proverbial bus, or maybe the car since we're staying with the car analogy here. You know, we were marketers, we're a digital company. And there were, there were parts of that quiz that showed that we were woefully, you know, underserved in some areas, and that we really needed to ratchet it up. And so don't get down on yourself about that. And the third thing I would say to you guys, make some intentional time to learn as a group, do not just put this on your tech team, this is a group effort. And when everybody can pour into it, it makes the data better, it makes the automations easier, we move faster. And you know, I'm always gonna go back to this, your mental health and the way that you enjoy your work is going to improve because you're not bogged down trying to figure it all out. So thank you for humanizing tech for us. Thank you for building this thank you for coming at it. From an abundance mindset. I truly believe this could be one of the greatest bridges between tech and nonprofit that we have seen in decades. So I want to put into the universe that I just think the human stack is the way we need to be thinking and creating an arc to the stories to these connections. Please put some intentionality around it. Okay, stepping off my soapbox, because you know, we love story. And you've been you have we've we've spent really intentional personal time with you hearing some of your personal stories in your life. I want to know about a time where philanthropy has come into Tim's world and changed everything about the way that you look at humanity and your business. Do you have a story like that that you would share?

And by the way, thank you so much. I am like, I need to just say I would not have gone human stack as the way I approach this work if it weren't for two critical conversations with you both where you said actually this is the direction we think you should take and so You're so polite to not bring that up but I just want to say like you helped me so much to think that through. So thank you and say you for your kind words around that a moment in in philanthropy. A moment in philanthropy that I that really affected me deeply was, I think it was 2016, there's a giving platform called cambia. That went down on a given day, like it just, they had not done a dynamic test on a on one of their dashboards. And so it compiled every time someone hit submit, it would recompile. And so like, the whole thing, just quit working midway through giving day, and I was part of the Giving Day data team in Bozeman, Montana, where we were doing this Giving Day, and I watch this Community Foundation, come together in like a half hour, and reconfigure the entire day. And I was honored to be part of that. So it's like, we're gonna do all of this on Google Sheets. And here is, here's what you need to know. Now go to all the banks, all the check writing stations, all of this other stuff, there's a phone bank, and here are the things you have to grab on every single one, write it down and get it into the spreadsheet. And then, and then the executive director went out. And a person on the board had a tech company with a support team. And they just re channeled all of that into being a support center or call center. They doubled the amount of donations that they made in that year, and the entire community came out for it. And these, the thing I loved about that is that there were over 100 nonprofits that were engaged in this. And really like this was a big deal for them and their funding source. And so it it showed how important well, maybe it showed how unimportant the tech really is compared to how important that relationships are. I think that that just I know that that's a very geeky answer for that question. But it really just showed me a different side of what can be done. It's like the opposite.

It is

literally the opposite.

It's the total opposite. I mean, what a beautiful story and how to pull this all together about how this meets the road. You know, Tim, I don't know how you're gonna do this, you know, we have to like round out our conversations asking for you to give us one good thing. But what's something you could leave our, you know, listeners with today, as you kind of distill this down?

Yeah, I think the thing that I would say is, the one thing is in your organization, if you're a small nonprofit, even if you're like a consulting firm, you're advising nonprofits, around technology. You need one person that's tactical, that is acting like a DBA and admin, identify that person, and give them all the support and love you can recognize their work. And then have a person that they report to that share, like looks at their work and says Good job, keep going, we need this to happen and supports them on that. If if you do that, you'll be amazed, absolutely amazed at the kind of progress you make, and highlight that to the board, put it in newsletters, like that role is so unrecognized. And the people doing that work. It's so isolating. And so when it comes to in or out, a lot of them leave that up for salary increases, but because they don't feel like they belong there, they feel so isolated. So find that person support them, and help them help them make that technology. Great.

Oh my gosh, you know, we we would expect anyone to come in and give us like the tech answer to that this is what you do. But you humanized it. And you literally built human stack into your answer by saying, lift up your staff recognize them, I'll tell you, I just did a training for a nonprofit in Texas. And the number one thing that the pre surveys show that was the thing they desired most in the office out of everything was greater recognition for their work. And I just think that is such an easy thing that we can do to make people feel seen and to make them feel motivated to keep going because they're going to pace that high of I'm important. I'm making it work. So thank you for humanizing, putting a human stack on your one good thing. Okay, Tim, you gotta tell everybody how they can connect with you how they can connect with the human stack? Where are you on socials? And we will definitely drop the diagnostic tool link in the show notes. But where else can they go and grab that and tell us about your course.

Yeah, absolutely. Um, find me on LinkedIn. I love talking with people on LinkedIn. So DM me on LinkedIn, that would be great. I do a lot on Tik Tok in terms of commenting and doing some videos. So those are kind of my two main platforms really. So you can find me there. You'll find out that I'm a very goofy person. Not at all sophisticated in either here or intellect. So you will we will love just bantering on there.

We love quirky people there are people Awesome.

Yeah, I think that must be we just we connect So well, in terms of the course. So, we're releasing this online course that is specifically for whoever got voluntold to do the CRM in nonprofit, this is for you, this is our way of helping you succeed at what you're doing. And we are putting all of our best work not into the enterprise level, the big nonprofits, this needs to work for organizations that are a million dollars, you know, and up or even even less, and so we were really trying to make it accessible at that level. And then if you're a consultant, we are we are creating trainings around how to learn to consult this way. And I would love to talk with any consultants that are interested in what this looks like. The course is not designed for you, but I have other things that I am working on to help with consultants as well. So I'd say those are those are the best places to reach me and Tim Locky, like if you've if you just search for Tim Locky on LinkedIn, and then the human stack is our website.

I mean, you've given us so much to think about, I love that diagnostic that you're offering to it's such a valuable tool. And Tim, we just love being in your orbit. So go find him and you're gonna get inspired by his post and laugh. You can hop in and encourage him as he's encouraged us today. I mean, this has been so great. Thank you. Well,

thank you both. It's really amazing.

Keep going. Thank you for pouring into trainers. We want this model replicated over and over. We want it to ripple out we want this to be the new normal. So keep going my friend, rooting for you in all things as you know.

And likewise Keep up the good. Keep doing the good that you're up to. It's so inspiring. And so and you are you are so far good. I just love it. So yes, back at you and 100%

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