riverside_olivia_sadler _ may 14, 2025 001_radical_massage the

2:57PM May 14, 2025

Speakers:

Krista Dicks

Keywords:

Mobile Massage Therapy

geriatric care

palliative care

hospice care

compassionate touch

end-of-life care

personalized treatment

health history form

caregiver communication

professional boundaries

self-care

grief therapy

public speaking

Toastmasters

nature therapy.

self-care

end-of-life perspective

mortality motivation

massage therapy

retirement

end-of-life doula

University of Vermont

legacy project

practical skills

upcoming workshops

client appreciation

time management

financial priorities

personal values

professional development

Hey, radical massage therapist, welcome back to the radical massage therapist Podcast. I'm Krista your host. I'm also a registered massage therapist and clinic owner, and today we're diving into a meaningful conversation with a very special individual. I'm joined by Olivia Sadler. She's a registered massage therapist, educator and an end of life care advocate who's been practicing for over 19 years, Olivia lives along the peaceful shores of Lake Huron, where she offers Mobile Massage Therapy for clients at all stages of life, from infants to hospice. After the loss of her uncle nine, Olivia felt a deep calling to explore how touch could offer dignity and connection during life's final chapter, she now works part time at her local hospice and teaches her signature compassionate touch workshop to help fellow RMTS bring more meaning and confidence to this tender work. This episode is about holding space, honoring boundaries, and remembering that sometimes the most powerful thing we can offer is simply being present. Let's get into it. You Well, Olivia, I'm so glad that we're finally able to connect, and we're doing this, we've kind of met and come together organically through the inter webs, which has been amazing. And you're so lovely to get to know. So I'm really glad that you're here. You've built something really special, and you continue to evolve as a practitioner and an educator and just an overall wonderful human being. Your work touches so many lives. No pressure. Can you just start by telling us how you found your way into Mobile Massage Therapy, but more specifically geriatric, palliative and hospice care, absolutely for sure. Well, thank you, Krista,

for having me. You taking the time to do this podcast. I find it amazing. I don't know how to do podcasts, how to put them together, but I always look up to people who do do things in their own way, and your podcast is just really entertaining. I really always enjoy your guests that you have on. So it's an honor to be invited to actually come and chat with you today. And regarding my practice, I definitely I got into geriatric, palliative end of life care because of my own experience. So in 2009 I visited an uncle, and he was dying of cancer and had a large tumor growing out the side of his abdomen. And I, of course, being the sweet niece, showed up with massage lotion and lasagna and the whole bit, and thought, I just go massage his feet. And, you know, take care of my aunt, my cousins, while we were visiting. And he actually asked me if I would massage his tumor. And I was like, I don't know if I should. I don't know how. I don't want to hurt you. I don't want to irritate anything. Like I don't know what to do, and I don't know if I feel comfortable with that. And he said, it just feels really stretched, like, he's like, it reminds me as if you know, like when you were pregnant with your daughters and your stomach was getting bigger, he's like, it's just, it feels like it's pulling and I just, he's like, I rub it gently myself, but it's just nice having someone else do it. So I said, I'll try, but if anything's uncomfortable, let me know. So I went ahead and just did a really gentle, you know, with a little bit of oil massage and then some soothing strokings. And he, like, visibly relaxed into his chair. He was so grateful. And on my way home after visiting him that day, knowing it was the last time I was going to see him, I just had this feeling that there has to be more that we can do, as far as our education and our skills and our overall confidence. I felt very underprepared for that experience, and I was just angry. I felt like I should have known what to do, and because I didn't know what to do, I was feeling guilty about it. So from 2009 until now, I just have been taking, you know, one course after another, reading books, taking online courses, connecting with like minded people, and it's just kind of been an ever evolving passion of mine. And now I actually am offering mobile service for geriatric, palliative and end of life, because those people in that category can't always go to a clinic. They can't just get in their car and go to a spa or a clinic or a multi disciplinary a location and have care. So I wanted to be able to still offer that kind of care and bring it to them. So I've been doing that since 2000 and was really when things shifted for me during COVID. Things were obviously weird for everyone, and I was working at a clinic part time, and I had a friend of mine who passed away from lung cancer, and I kept thinking to reach out to him, and I missed my window, and then felt guilty that I should have reached out sooner. But again, things were weird. You couldn't go to people's homes, etc. And I reached out and talked to a mentor of mine, my high school art teacher, CJ. And she said, you know, you need to, if this is something you're passionate about, you have all this education. It's being wasted if you don't offer it. And she said, You need to have a website. And you need to have, you know, postcards and pamphlets, and you know, an online presence so that people in your community can find you if they're looking for you. And so that's what I did. And like I said, it's been an ever evolving path, and it still is always changing, and there's always new things that come up and new courses that I take. And even after, you know, 16 years of taking different courses, I still feel like I learn things all the time. And so being flexible and having that beginner's mind and always, you know, showing up to see your patients, knowing what we know with our skills, but being open minded that we might walk into a scenario that we've never seen before, and and just being present and open for that. Yeah,

I love your story, and I appreciate what you said there, just at the end that we don't know what we're going to walk into, no matter what courses you've taken, what experience you have, because every individual is different, and now you're also walking into very special environments as well, where you might be visiting a hospital, hospice care, like homes, somebody's bedroom, and now you're also navigating that dynamic of treatment as well, where we can much more control when people do come to see us, but everything is almost out of your control when you're in someone else's environment and at the same time, wanting to provide such personal, professional like and compassionate care, which will just maybe jump right into it all of your experience you've now developed a workshop to introduce RMTS to the work that you do. Do you want to just start off on explaining what that course is all about,

absolutely. The reason that I put my workshop together was I'm only one person, and I by no means know everything, but I've learned a lot in my 16 years, and I wanted the people in my community or in our province or in our country or in the world to just have more confidence going into those personalized treatment centers, into people's homes or hospitals or whatever. And there isn't really anything that I have put together that I've found anywhere else. So my idea was, I'm just going to put this together because I want more people to be offering end of life care. I don't think that the patients and the people of the world at when they get to end of life, I don't want them to say, Oh, I really love touch therapy, but now that I'm dying, no one's going to come and treat me. I wanted more people to have this service available, so I've put it together. And there isn't really any magic technique that's available, like massage therapists are all taught the same, you know, effleurage, petrissage, soothing, strokings, positions, Pillowing support, range of motion, like we're all taught the same or some kind of the same techniques, but it's all about all the details that go on behind the scenes. So for example, having an online health history form is really important, because to walk into someone's home with a piece of paper or a stack of papers, depending on the health history, and say, Okay, you're dying, and your time is valuable. And now I'm going to sit here and waste 25 minutes going through all this information and, oh, you don't remember your medications. So now we have to go and get them all from the bathroom and write them down. And I don't have time to look them up to see what they all stand for and what their side effects might be and how that might affect their massage treatment. So having an online health history form, not everybody does online SOAP Notes and online forms, but it's really imperative for this kind of treatment, because you have to be one step ahead of the game. You have to be prepared. You can't just show up and wing it. So that's one of the things that we talk about. And even having details in the health history similar to, like, What music do you want to listen to? If it's only one hour that I get to see this patient and they might die in a week, I don't want them to listen to, you know, harp music. If they don't like the harp, and I don't want them to, you know, feel obligated to just be like, well, I guess this is the music she brought. So I like to really personalize the treatment and allow people to pick and choose. I even ask them, Do you prefer heat or cold? Because some people, at end of life aren't cold. They don't want a heat pack. They actually feel really hot and sweaty, and sometimes they are actually perspiring like their skin will feel damp. So then that's a different treatment, where, if I show up with a heat pack and just say, like, Oh, here's your hot water bottle, or here's a plug in heat pack or thermophore, they wouldn't like that because they're already uncomfortable. So a lot of things that I've put together in my workshop are practicing the hands on skills we already know, but in a different location. So instead of renting a space that would be like a clinic classroom space or a massage table space, I actually have sourced out different Airbnbs that are, you know, a large home. So when the participants come to the workshop, they can actually practice realistic care. So end of life patients are not able to get on a massage table. They, quite frankly, are many times quite frail or uncomfortable in any way. And massage tables are great. Healthy People who can climb on them and climb off them and turn over and all that jazz, but people who are dying are sometimes a little more sensitive to movement, so to keep them where they're comfortable and meet them where they are is really important. So I've treated people in a lazy boy chair. I've massaged clients while they lay down on their couch, which can be awkward, and if you haven't practiced it in a course you're going to show up at someone's house and be like, I've never reached around someone's body on a couch and massage them, so you just kind of troubleshooting all of the things that I've learned in my practice, and then created a course around how to make it more successful for the other massage therapists in our community.

Yeah, and I was completely blown away, and it's by your idea of having the course in an Airbnb where, as a participant, you are going to both be like the body and the therapist, so that you can experience what it's like to be in the bed with very limited mobility and not helping the You know the therapist as you know they're working around you, feeling what it's like to awkwardly, or now you know you're probably teaching much less awkward how to not do it so awkwardly, um, in real life situations. And if you, like you said, if you haven't practiced it, then you really show up blind and kind of go E and obviously, like, most of the time these, these people at end of end of life, they have family around, and now you're sort of, like, under this microscope at the same time that, you know, the families, they're like, kind of watching, like, what you're doing. And, you know, there's sort of that awkwardness that that can be there. So I love this idea that you're bringing it into an Airbnb instead of, you know, a hotel banquet hall, because what is the point of learning in that environment on a massage table? Exactly. So that is really, really special I have so I love, like you said, you can't just wing it. You can't just show up and wing it. And as part of your sort of lead up to that appointment, you also want to talk to the primary, like caretaker as well, so that you have a better idea. That's that's part. I just because I scoped out your website. Do you want to explain a little bit more about that? Yeah.

So typically, when people become palliative and then and then get into end of life care, they usually have, like, a substitute decision maker or a power of attorney for their health that kind of manages all their appointments and medications and things like that. Sometimes the person themselves are still quite verbal and able to fill out their forms themselves. But if the case is that, you know, it's their loved one, it's their partner, it's their friend, whatever, they sometimes will fill the forms out ahead of time, and I would typically offer a complimentary like 10 minute phone conversation. So if someone's booked online with me, and they're a new patient, I would send them a follow up email and say, you know, I'm available at these three different times for a 10 minute conversation, just so that we have a few minutes to kind of touch base. So if you have any questions, it gives them an opportunity to just have a conversation and then ask those questions, you know, like, What time are you going to show up? And should we kick everybody else out? Or can they stay? It's like, no, absolutely, we can kind of navigate that together. And I think that's really important, is building that level of community and connection through healthy communication with our caregivers, because they're so overwhelmed trying to manage everything. You know not, they're not just taking care of their person. They're also managing groceries, and they're a chauffeur and they are a medication schedule person, and they just caregivers. Are very overwhelmed, and they need, they need some support. And I think it's important that, as massage therapists, if we're showing up for people in this capacity, that we are also organized and prepared to be there for them in a healthy way.

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I have some, like, follow up questions to that for me personally, because I have worked with quite a few palliative clients in in my career, and there was a good part of my career that I saw them a lot, almost exclusively, and it was, as you said, you're hoping to get more people to learn how to be more confident in these with these types of clients. And I was kind of just, I want to say, just thrown into it. I feel like the massage experience that I had was was great preparation, and I am a problem solver, and, you know, I'm comfortable in these types of scenarios. However, like I was just working for a mobile company, and I can, I can imagine, as a caretaker, when you're looking for somebody, for your person, I mean, that's kind of the only go to that you had at that point was, well, we need a massage therapist, but we really need somebody that can do mobile. So from my experience, it was kind of, this company was mobile, but we were also physios. And so I kind of just got, you know, put into the situation, grateful for it, because I'm all for, you know, being pushed into something then just, you know, dipping my toe in it. But from my experience in this, in this world, I want to ask you about, like, is it hard when you're moving on to the next appointment? Can we talk about what? Because at the end of the day, you are still a practitioner with a business. You have time limitations as well. Okay, like they're in contrast to the type of client that you're working with, not the same, but you are having to move on from one appointment to the other, right. Potentially in your busy day, you're still emotionally holding space from the last one, but also I feel like, just like that time barrier on, so on, so many layers. How do you navigate that? Navigating

time and capacity has become something I've really had to work on in my life. I used to be the kind of person that was late for things, and I think just becoming a more effective adult, I've just learned how to manage my time more effectively. But when it comes to work, I definitely don't I'm not an assembly line massage therapist. I know some people, you know, don't book any time between treatments, and it's you know, one right after the other that doesn't work for me. I don't like feeling rushed, and I think that this kind of treatment is not something that can be rushed. So I book 30 minutes before and after each end of life massage one, because if I can get there a few minutes early and say hello and pet their dog, and, you know, I wear indoor shoes in their home, and I have battery operated candles, like I want to get set up, and that shouldn't be part of their massage. They're paying for hands on care. So me bringing all my stuff in that's all built into the cost of my mobile service, I try if I know, like, typically, I work within a small circumference in my community, like I only have, like a 2030, kilometer radius that I that I travel around. So I already know when they've filled out their forms, where they are in the community, and if I notice they're on the far end of the community, I will actually add in an extra 15 or 20 minutes after their treatment, ahead of time, so no one can book right after, just because I don't want to be like, Okay, have a great treatment. Peace out. Leave in quick like you want to be sensitive about that. And so typically, by the time they're done their massage, you know, quite frankly, most of them are sleeping, or at least in a very calm, relaxed state. So I quietly start packing my things up, and then just say, you know, it was really love to Lovely to meet you today. You know, thank you for including me in your circle of care. And I don't say Have a good day, because that seems insensitive, but things like, I hope you have a relaxing afternoon. I hope you feel peaceful for the rest of your day. If you'd like me to come back, you know, have your people call my people that kind of thing, like, just letting them know I'm I'm leaving, but don't get up, don't worry. And if you need me to come back, I can. And then usually the caregivers are, you know, offering to help carry my stuff out to the car, and it's like, no, like, go make yourself a cup of tea and enjoy this kind of calm energy that we've created together in your space. So I do block off extra time between treatments and and I typically only see three to four people in a day, and that way I'm not feeling burnt out at the end of the day as well. Because if it were assembly line, you know, one after the other, I'm seeing six or eight clients, I would be burnt out and probably crying by 8pm every night. And the whole point of this work is to show up healthy and energized and capable. And I don't want to bring, you know, 50% energy to someone who needs me at 110%

Yeah, I love that, and I'm thank you for sharing how you end the treatment and how you leave the client, because that was my next question. I mean, you can't exactly say See you later, like, see you next time, because that's an end, or even just you saying, like, have a nice day. It can be really insensitive. And you know, so I really appreciate you giving those guidelines as well. And and have you ever had some of the caretakers just want to be in the room with you, just because of the energy, just that shift, that calmness, like they're just there to close their eyes and just enjoy it? I've had

a combination. Actually, I've had my caregivers who are completely tapped out and overwhelmed. And if I show up and I set everything up, they'll say, Do you need me here? Or can I take the dog for a walk for 15 minutes? And I'm like, I'm here. I've got your number if we need to call or text you, but if you need a 15 minute walk, like, I'm here for 60 minutes, like, go enjoy some sunshine or go make a cup of tea and sit on the back deck kind of thing. So giving them permission to take some respite care for themselves is really important. And then the other side is yes, absolutely. Many times caregivers want to be in the room, and if the person is enjoying their treatment, I'll even invite the caregiver and say, you know, this isn't rocket science. This is very simple. I can show you some simple techniques. So I'll usually invite the caregiver to get their cell phone out and take a wee little tutorial video, and I would show them, you know, this is how you can gently work on the shoulder, or this is how you can gently work on the back of their neck, or this is how you can relieve some of their jaw tension, and then they have a wee little video on their own phone. With their own person, that if their person is uncomfortable at two in the morning and they're waiting for, you know, their palliative nurse or doctor to show up, you know, with pain medication or whatever, they now have this tool, which is a non pharmacological way to decrease pain through touch. And if they don't remember what they did, they can just go back and watch that video, and they've got this, this really great tool that's now available to them, yeah,

um, what are some of the other ways that you make it personal and meaningful and still treat it like a business, you know, with time and price boundaries? I've you already mentioned that you're setting up these battery powered candles, which just sounds lovely, because there's, you know, amongst other things, there's probably beeps and boops, and there's, you know, like, weird art on the wall that's been in there from like, the 70s, if they're in some, you know, hospital. So, yeah, what are some of the other ways that you make it very personal and meaningful for the individuals?

So I typically, when I go through their health history, I'll kind of look at just different details, like their birth date. So if they've checked off that they want to listen to instrumental music, but they were born in 1950 I might not pick an instrumental playlist that you and I would listen to, but I would go back to 1950 and add like 16 to 20 years, and then go on Spotify and look up instrumental music from 1955 to 1960 because, or, sorry, 1965 to 1970 because, typically, people do connect to music more from their youth. So if you can think, you know, by the time you were age 15 to 20, that's really the only music that you really love, like all the new stuff is great too, but there's just a different nostalgia about youth music. And so I will try and have those kinds of things already downloaded and ready on my phone to play, and I do make sure that I have my speaker already on just low volume and my phone is on airplane mode before I even go into the home or the hospice or the hospital, so that I'm not getting those feet boops, or your cell phone has connected successfully, or whatever it is for Bluetooth, so just making sure that it's already, like, you're walking in really prepared, and the battery operated candles, it's so funny, like, I'll turn them on and set them down, and it's like, well, let's just pretend we're at the spa. And, you know, I usually get a little chuckle, but usually people are like, Oh, that's so nice. Like, they wouldn't have even thought that lighting can make such a huge impact. Yeah. And there have been instances where I've walked into, you know, a home where every light in the room is on and the TV is on, CNN on volume 74 and there's just a lot of energy going on in the room. So instead of being insulting, I try and be sensitive and say, Is it okay if I just turn this light off and we'll just open the window so we can have some natural light, and then I'll just grab the remote and I say, I'm just going to turn this down a wee bit. Or do you mind if I actually turn it off during your massage? Is it okay? And then if they don't care, then I turn the TV off, and I even travel with a little please do not disturb massage therapy and progress sign that I put on the door at their front door, so that if the Amazon person drops off a package, or the neighbor is bringing over a casserole, they'll see that and go, Oh, this is like quiet time. I'm going to come back later. So all these little things, they definitely do, make an impact? I think it's important to to to personalize your treatment in any way, shape or form. I also have a question on my health history that says, How do you typically deal with stress? So if people write down, I love nature, then I would maybe play nature music. Or I would ask them, you know, you mentioned in your health history that nature is really how you like to manage dress. Were you a hiker or a gardener? And just ask them about what it is that they're interested in, because sometimes that can bring a positive memory that the client will talk about, and sometimes they're not interested in talking. And that's okay too, but at least you have that information ahead of time to show up more prepared and create a

personalized treatment. Yeah. How far into like, end of life? Have you like? Have you treated somebody like, has there been like, several months that you've been seeing clients, or is it usually one or a handful of appointments?

It's actually been a combination? So I have a patient right now that I've been treating for two years, and so that person has been palliative. They have a terminal illness that they're not going to recover from, and they are just in comfort care when it comes to their medical team. And so within that, massage therapy has been added, and it's been really vital for building relaxation into their stressful experience. But then at the same time, I have patients that I've seen once, maybe twice, and so it's just a it's a scale of people depending on how how long their illness is lasting, and how soon they reach out to me. So I think sometimes people will reach out closer to the end, and then think I wish we would have called you sooner. So sometimes I. Patients will actually reach out, or their family will reach out and say, we just got this diagnosis. We've been given three to six months. And how can you help us? And then we come up with a plan together. So it's been a combination Excellent.

Let's talk about boundaries and burnout and saying, you know, I prior to recording, I know that you did see a client this morning. It's Sunday morning, by the way, and in your in your message, you know you were just like, Well, time is of the essence. And I think we all have difficulty with our boundaries, time management and saying no to clients in this line of work, it seems even harder to do that, but at the same time, like, how can you say no when your schedule is full or you deserve to have a Sunday off? Because if you say yes to a Sunday for now until you retire, you don't get to enjoy you know your your own life and in perspective. So how, how do you manage your time and boundaries? That's

a great question. That is something I've worked on for sure, and I actually do feel very comfortable with my boundaries. And this is only the third time in my entire 20 year career that I have worked on a Sunday, and the reason being, when this person reached out and said, Can you come and work on my loved one who is dying, I said, Absolutely. And I gave them a couple different opportunities, a couple different appointment spots, and one was a week and a half ago, and they had a very successful treatment. They their pain was down. They didn't need as much pain medication that day. They slept better. And so when they asked me to come back, I said, I can come back, but I'm going on a holiday next week. So my only options are, you know, Sunday morning at 10am or Thursday at one in the afternoon. And they were like, Sunday would be better. And so sometimes that language is saying that person might not be here by Thursday. And so I could have just said sorry, I don't feel like working Sundays, but I think there's a level of I had the time and capacity. I wasn't run off my feet. It's an hour of my day. And if it's able to help someone, then I think it's worth it. And like I said, it was only the third Sunday that I'd ever worked in my career, so it wasn't, it's not a regular thing. I typically try to book my clients, you know, Monday to Friday, taking like, half days off here and there for my own kids, self care and appointments and things like that, or even just to see my grief therapist or to pencil in a nap. I do block my day off, not a whole day, but I block my day through so that I have breaks throughout my week and I don't book myself completely full because I think a lot of massage therapists do, they think, Okay, I'm gonna get this job and I'm gonna see patients from nine until 7pm five days a week. I'm gonna make all this money, but then what's the point? You have all this money and you have no quality of life. And I think working with people at end of life, it changes your perspective on your own existence. I love my life. I love traveling. I love eating good food. I love visiting with friends and family and having decent conversation. But I also love my job, so I don't really look at work the same way that some people look at work. I always ask massage therapists. When I go for massage Why did you take massage therapy? And it's either I love it and I knew that I wanted to help people, or I just picked a course out of a book, and I'm like, I already know before I get my massage from this person, if it's going to be a good treatment or not, because people either get it and are passionate about helping other people with hands on skill, or it's just a job to them. So I think for me, it's just always been a passion, and because it's so important to me, I've realized that I have to take extra good care of myself. So when it comes to my self care and building in boundaries, I do see a grief therapist every four weeks until the end of time, the one I found is phenomenal. I adore her, and I booked massage appointments for myself. Every three or four weeks, usually six months out, I go to see a friend of mine for reflexology. I do block naps in. I do cycle syncing. So every 28 days, when I know I'm going to need a little extra support, I block in nap time twice that week, and I tell my family I need to, I'm going to need some of you to make me dinner this week, or I'm going to go to bed, you know, at eight o'clock instead of 930 to get that extra time in for care, I think too, like even coming down to, like, meal planning, you know, you could wait till six o'clock at night to be like, Oh, I'm I'm really tired and physically drained and emotionally drained, and I wish I had something to eat. And then you go and get McDonald's or take out or whatever. Or you can look at your schedule and be more proactive and go, Okay, Monday, Wednesday and Thursday are really heavy days. I'm gonna make sure I put something in the crock pot in the morning or make extra the night before, whatever. So I think being proactive and staying on top of your schedule, and not just planning work all the time, but planning those self care blocks is really important. Definitely.

Yeah, I love you. Routine that you described there, and cycle thinking and the naps are all things that I feel like we should all be integrating into our routine. But all of it was, yeah, just wonderful advice as well that we can all, we can all learn from. And I mean, you're 20 years in practice, and you know, maybe it wasn't like that from day one, but it is now, and that's really inspiring, and that's only going to keep you running on, you know, for maybe another 20 years if you do want to, you know, continue to practice this way, which is really important to our career. Like you said, there's and there's the difference between the ones who are just doing it for a job and the ones that were feel called to do it. And so, yeah, that's really, really special. And even just like, the meal planning is important because you're in your car a lot, or you're going to people's homes, there's not, you know, you there is opportunity to grab something on the go, or you can plan to have some really healthy snacks. And, you know, a little I used to have like, a little bento box of, like, snacks so that, you know, guilty I could be eating while I was driving, but I knew it was also, you know, healthy, and I wasn't stopping at drive throughs and things like that, because that that is just the default. If you don't, don't have the the time you're not looking after yourself when you're working with a palliative client or geriatric where's the line for you, and you probably expand on this in your workshop as well. Where's the line for you between like RMT and PSW as far as, Do you like when you have to, if you have to, do you choose to move the client, if you need different access, and they're, you know, two, two different body parts,

I typically do not move patients or clients. I don't think it's not in our scope to shuffle people about. And I don't know everything that is happening with the person. You know what you know on their health history, but you know if, if they didn't sleep well, or their hip is bothering them, things like that. So I typically rely on PSWs. I do have patients that I see at different long term care facilities, and we're kind of in a rhythm now with the PSWs or the nurses aides and whatnot. If I'm coming in for massage, they typically already have my patient in bed ready for me. And sometimes they're rushed and they don't take, like, their their pants off, so then, you know, they're fully clothed underneath their bed sheets, and it's like, okay, well, I'm not going to take your pants off, because that's definitely not in my scope of practice, but I do travel with a satin pillow case, so I use that to still kind of like reach underneath, work on hamstrings, and still recreate that massage feeling, without necessarily having to use oil. So that's another tool that I use in my toolbox. As far as not everybody wants an oil massage, or can have an oil massage if they're fully clothed. And same thing if I'm working with palliative clients to move palliative clients is a very delicate procedure. Some of them have pressure injuries or just thinned skin, like the bonds of their skin has changed, so you don't want to be aggressive with someone like that and create a tear or a friction burn or things like that. So I would typically ask the family member has already been taught by the PSW on how to move and rotate their person. So if I'm working on someone and they want their back worked on and want to get put into a sideline position, I would just ask their caregiver, or I would, you know, ding the bell and have the PSW come in and say, Would you mind turning this person onto their side for me, please, just so that it's we're staying within our scope and we're still able to offer our care, and we're not worried about injuring ourselves, because I'm not trained on how to do lifts and turns and things like that. And that's I don't I don't have time to be injured.

No, definitely, we do not have the time, and it is out of our scope of practice. And you know, I appreciate you, you know, just reminding us of that, that it is not, you know, may sometimes, in my experience, I always felt like I would ding the bell, and I just feel like such a dick sometimes, because, like, they're so busy, they're running around, and then I'm like, Hey, like, can you just turn them so that I can, you know, massage their back? And that's a me thing, and that was, you know, like, 10 years ago as a practitioner. But like, yeah, I appreciate you just saying, like, it's not in our scope. There are professionals who are trained to do this, and it's okay to to call on them. And that satin pillow is genius for the pillowcase, yeah, for helping you to slide underneath the legs, you know, because there is sometimes that awkward scenario where, like, need to get behind or the hamstring, or, like, I do some lymphatic work, and I'm, like, need to get, like, under the knee, but it's heavy, and, you know, it's, you know, they're not, they're not able to help. And so that's really, that's a, really, a great, a piece of advice there for sure.

And one thing, just to add to that, Krista, if you are ever or if anyone's ever working with someone and they need to call on a PSW or or a nurse's aide or or whatever, to have them come and move their person, just be honest and turn it back on yourself and say, Listen, I'm not trained in this, and I don't want to hurt this person. And this is your profession. I'm so great. You're here to help me. Like, that's their job. They're happy to help. It's just, I think it comes across in how you communicate, it like, thank you so much for coming to help me move this person. Because, like I said, I don't know what I'm doing, and I want to make sure that they get moved, you know, properly, so that they don't get injured.

Yeah, and just knowing ahead of time, you know, going back to, like, the intake, and when you're communicating with the caretaker, like, I know, I've been in scenarios before where the individual had, like, a feeding tube, and so it was like, like, please don't lower that. Don't lower them, you know, on the table, right? Like their head is up, you know, for a reason. And just understanding something like that before you get into the room, because sometimes I have, you know, the caretaker is not there. You kind of just walk in and it is you and just the client. So it is that, that nice reminder, and then, you know, you're not getting, like, the dirty looks from the nurse when, when she's like, Well, did you like, like, if you call them because, like, like, something's like, they're vomiting, or something's happening here, like, Well, did you move the tape, like, the bed? And you're like, No, like, I didn't move the bed. Like, they just said, help them kind of problem solve, like, what's happening? Because, yeah, those are scenarios that that can certainly happen

even navigating hospital beds if an RMT has never, like, figured out all the buttons on hospital beds, the ones that actually get delivered to people's homes are usually quite different than the ones in the hospital, and those are different than the ones in hospice. So they're all, you know, they all have buttons. They're going to raise the head or raise the feet or raise the whole the whole bed up and down. But if you're not comfortable with how to maneuver that, and also how to put the sides down so you can access your patient closer, and you can actually get in and work on their body, but then also remain, remembering to put it back up, because it's a safety rail there for a reason. So becoming more confident and comfortable with how to navigate around a hospital bed is is a huge skill that you need to become familiar with, definitely

and like that, as also adds the importance of just giving yourself more time so you're not rushed, like you said, just making sure that that bar goes back up for safety reasons, and you're not rushing out, forgetting about it, but also knowing that you know you did how to put it down and put it back up. So that is wonderful. Do you go to the funerals of your palliative and hospice

patient? I don't go. I don't go often. I have been to funerals in the past. I haven't been to a funeral of a patient since before COVID. During that time, you know, you had to only certain amounts of people were allowed to go, or you had to sign in and whatever. And I never wanted to take the place of a friend or a family member, and I haven't been since probably 2019, and I'm not saying I wouldn't go, but at the same time, that almost feels like a boundary that I would maybe only cross and go to a funeral. If I felt strong, strongly connected to the patient, like if I had been going to see them for years and knew the whole family and the whole care team, and we were all in in it together, I would absolutely go to a funeral like that. But if I only met a patient once or twice, for me to show up at the funeral, and then people are like, who are you? Why are you here? Like, that's bordering on, you know, breach of confidentiality and all of that kind of thing. So I have been, but I don't make a habit of it. It's,

it's really great to hear you say that you, you have been, and you, you don't, you don't make a habit of it for excellent reasons. You know, for confidentiality, it is a boundary that we can cross. I've felt conflicted about, about, like, not going and choosing whether to go or not, and I have not gone, and I just, yeah, I felt, I felt really conflicted about that. And actually, I don't know if you know this, but my dad's a funeral director, so I did not know that. Yeah, so I'm pretty comfortable in, you know, at funerals, in these scenarios, and I've even, you know, asked, asked him about it, and he's like, I mean, you can, you can go, you know, you can be in the back. There's also maybe opportunities again, but confidentiality, though, like, never done it, and I'm glad to hear you say that, because it's just been something that's been heavy, like, on my conscience and, like, my heart for like, so long. Like, I feel bad that I didn't go to their funeral, but there's such great reasons not you know, professionally, that it's okay, like that we don't go. So yeah, that's that maybe, like, the visitation. But then, like I said, you know you're gonna be explaining to people like, who you are, why you're why you're there, how you know the deceased. So, yeah, that's, that's, it's really great to to know. I think, I think it's actually come up in some of the community chats recently, on our on our Facebook pages as well. Do you do you engage in some way with, like a condolence card or donations at all? Or do you again, keep that boundary separate?

I typically will send it an email, because that's usually how I go back and forth with the caregivers. So if I have an appointment with the patient, and then the caregiver emails and stuff. As I'm sorry, my person passed away yesterday, so we'll have to cancel your appointment. I would just respond to that email and say, I'm so sorry for your loss. You know it was, it was an honor to be included in a portion of their care, and it was lovely to have met them and to have met you, and thank you for for introducing me to them, and you'll be in my thoughts, because, again, you don't want to say, I'm sending prayers or whatever, like you have to walk that line between what people believe and don't believe, and you want to kind of stay neutral. So letting them know I'm thinking of you, and thank you for having me be a part of your care, I think, is a professional way to let them know. But you, you are in my thoughts, but I'm not going to, I'm not going to send a bouquet of flowers, and I'm not going to send a card and things like that. Maybe that's something that I could be doing. But I think that, I think that there's only so much that we can do in our profession and in our line of work is very we are very compassionate people. You know, we're going in and offering hands on care to people at their most vulnerable time in their life, and so to to expect more of ourselves, like, oh, I should have sent flowers or I should have made a donation, I think that that's putting more pressure on us to do more than what's necessary. I think doing our job and showing up and being professional and offering care, I think is doing what we're meant to be doing.

Thank you for free saying that you recently posted about finishing your end of life doula training, because you are always trying you know, to learn more about yourself and just you know about the profession and how you can contribute. And you mentioned that you were taking a few days off to walk in the forest. Can you talk about that, need to pause and recalibrate.

It's my favorite. I love being in the forest. I find, you know, I really love listening to music and podcasts and audiobooks and all of that good stuff. And our world is so busy. Like you look around and like, there's just chaos everywhere, even like screens everywhere. Our kids all have screens. Our parents have screens. We're always plugged in all the time. And in 2015 I went on a really big hike with a friend. I went and hiked mount Marcy in the Adirondacks. It was awful. I thought I was going to die several times. It was like the most intense hike I've ever done. It was 10 hours. My calves have never been the same. And the reason I actually did that hike was because I thought I had breast cancer. I found a lump, and gone for some imaging, and they were like, yes, we found something. We have to do some follow up tests. And so I had had the follow up test, but not gotten the results yet. And my friends were hiking this mountain, and I thought, I think I just have to go. Because if I find out I'm dying, and I didn't climb a mountain, I want to be able to say on my deathbed, like, oh, I went and did that. I don't know why I had this, this thought, but anyways, that was the hike that we did, and it was so intense, and it was long, and, like I said, my calves will never recover. It was brutal, but it was beautiful, like the views that we had and the laughter that we shared. It was the group of eight of us girls that did this hike, and it's an ongoing joke, like, now, like, oh, remember when Julia lost three toenails? Like, it's just it was such a wild ride. And it like opened something up in my mind. Like being in nature is what I need, not to that extent. I've not climbed Mount Mercy since, but from 2015 until now, I've, I've searched out different places to go hiking, whether it's in Ontario or in the States or over in BC or whatever. And it's just it does something to like, you said, recalibrate me just being in the forest, walking around, my kids make fun of me. I'm like, let's go find rocks and trees and water. But it's true, like you just, you're on a path, and all of a sudden there's a clearing and there's a lake, and then you see, you know, a bunny or a bird or whatever. And it's just, there's something that we are missing, I think, as humans, by being so plugged in all the time and returning to nature and having that time has kind of helped bolster my spirit, and like filled my cup, made me feel like, okay, we're all made of stardust, and this is great, and I can go back to work now. I've got energy again to kind of return to what I love to do. But yeah, being in the forest is my favorite. There's definitely, there is a connection there for us, for sure, and not not we just don't spend enough enough time. Maybe some people do, but we I don't spend enough time in nature. And I can relate to that, that feeling, and I never thought that I would enjoy hiking and being outdoors and but with the right the right people, the right setup, even if everything goes wrong, like you said, you get some great memories out of it. Yeah, and it's just really the world is, is just incredible when you do unplug and get get outside, it's, it's pretty awesome.

One thing that I do love about you, and so many people love about you, and. Having been able to spend time with you at the conference back in October and seeing everybody all together, you seem to have this beautiful ability to connect with everyone, absolutely everyone, from your clients to the waitress at the restaurant, who you got a hug from at the end. She was so sweet.

Yeah, she did such a good job. We bombarded her. There was like, what? 10 or 12 of us? We didn't have a reservation, we just showed up. And she's like, I've got you and She memorized, you? Remember that this waitress memorized our entire order for 12 people, drinks, appetizers, mains, desserts, the whole bit. And I'm like, You're not going to write it down. She's like, No, I've got it up here. I'm like, You're incredible. Can I hug you? She said, Yes. It was pretty funny.

Yeah. So how did you become so approachable and easy to talk to? Have you always been this open? Is it something that you've worked on?

I don't know how to answer that. I don't think I have always been this open. I think I always wanted to just be myself. But definitely felt like I had to, like, walk the line to try and fit in with people, like when I was a kid or a teenager or whatever, I think life experience. I think just being an adult and having bills to pay and groceries to buy and kids to look after, and just the responsibilities and experiences that we all have, I think that that just allows you to see people and really see them like, you know, I think when you realize that everyone this is actually a line from my therapist, she told me, everyone's grieving all the time, so you never have to think like, oh, it's just you, or it's just that person. Like, everyone's grieving all the time. And they're not always just grieving people or pets. Sometimes they're grieving their childhood home that they can't return to, or they're grieving a friendship that kind of fell apart and never got back to what it was. Or they're grieving, you know, the smell of a person that you know used to live beside them or whatever, but everybody's grieving. And once she kind of said that, it kind of shifted my perspective. And I think it's just people are people, everybody's everybody's doing the best they can, but everybody has struggles, like no one has a perfect life. No one has it all figured out. Even the people who look like they have it figured out, usually don't. So I think realizing that everyone's doing the best they can, I try and meet people where they are. I don't know that I can necessarily talk to all people or connect all people. I just, I try and treat people, how other, how I would want to be treated and and just be open and honest. And sometimes you swing and you miss. So I'm not, it doesn't work every time Krista, but like that waitress could have been like, No, I don't want to hug from you, you weirdo. And luckily she was like, I'll take a hug. And then we were buddies, but, but, yeah, I think just being open and honest, I think it, I think it's refreshing in a time when people are very, you know, putting on a mask, or being filtered, or, Oh, I'm only going to talk about this with so many people, because it's private, or whatever. I think, just be yourself, and also being 4041, now, actually, I just, it's kind of a beautiful thing. As we age, we just kind of stop caring so much about what other people think like. Of course, you care to an extent. You don't want to go outside in your underwear and things like that, but I think really worrying about what other people think is an exhausting habit that people get stuck into. And I just, I think working with people at end of life has changed my perspective on I don't, I don't make time for things that don't matter to me anymore, and that doesn't, it doesn't matter to me if people don't like me, that's okay. Like, I'm not everyone's cup of tea, and I'm okay with that. And I have a lot of really great, wonderful, beautiful humans in my life. Yeah, I think just be honest and be yourself, Yeah,

amazing, like, yeah, and you're right, you might swing and miss, but like, just that openness to try and just, you know, talk to somebody out of, you know, like a complete stranger. I think that that is still really special, and not enough of us do it. And another message from you recently, I learned that you do Toastmasters. And for those who don't know what Toastmasters is, it is something that I am petrified of doing, but at the same time, they feel like everybody that's done Toastmasters has it has been such an experience for them that it's only enhanced their communication, and it's been an excellent experience for them. Can you share what is Toastmasters? Why you, why you decided to do it, and what you're learning from

it? Absolutely. Um, about last summer. I think it was June or July, June. I believe I had sent in a presentation proposal to do a workshop at the Canadian massage conference, and pretty quickly found out that they had accepted my proposal. And then I felt like this pressure like, oh my gosh, I have to put together a presentation, and I don't want to waste people's time, and I should probably figure out how to do that effectively. So when I was younger, I'm sure many of us in public school. Had to do public speaking, like, in front of the class, you have to do a speech about raccoons or whatever. So I really enjoyed doing that. I still had the same feeling. Everybody gets the same feeling when they're doing public speaking. You get sweaty palms. You get like, a knot in your stomach, you get increased heart rate, like you get a lump in your throat, dry mouth, like, it's not unique to you. Everyone gets it, it's okay. It's all part of the process. And Toastmasters is really interesting. It just had the 100 year anniversary of it starting, but it's an international public speaking program that anyone can sign up from anywhere in the world, and it's a really supportive, positive environment to practice speaking in a small group, like, I think there's 10 or 12 people in our Toastmasters group. Sometimes there's 20, sometimes there's 30, like, whatever. It doesn't matter, but you practice just with your own group. So sometimes people will join it if they have to do a speech at their child's wedding, or they have to do a presentation for a massage conference or whatever, and then you get to practice the skills that are going to help you become more successful as a speaker and as a communicator. So you're not saying the word 75 times, or you're not stuttering over words, or you're not forgetting what you are going to say. It's all about learning how to be organic and prepared at the same time. So I joined it last summer, my group is phenomenal. My president of my group is in her 80s. She's like five feet tall and has turquoise blue pixie cut hair. She has the most contagious laugh. So the very first meeting that I went to, I just fell in love with this woman. She's so sweet, and it's been a really fun time. So my group is a hybrid, so we do virtual or in person, depending on the weeks, and it is a bit of a drive away for me to go to my meetings, so I typically, especially this winter, oh my gosh, we had so much snow. I haven't gone since November, but it's nice because I can log in online, and we follow a schedule. So it's an it's an organized schedule, and everyone has different roles, whether you are the person chairing the meeting, or you are doing table topics. So that's kind of like impromptu, almost like, what's the word improv? Rapid Fire improv? Okay, yeah, so it's like an improv speech. So they'll give you a topic, and you off the fly. Have to come up with something to say about it for a minute to two minutes, and ever there's a timer role, so everyone has a different role, and it's a two hour meeting once a week, and it's been a lot of fun, and it's really I've taught, I've learned a lot about myself, about how to teach more effectively and how to communicate more effectively, and I've met some really cool people along the way. That

sounds great. I mean, I think it's wonderful, even if you don't have something coming up. But I also love that you had your presentation coming up and you were like, well, I want this to go well. I want to communicate my workshop and like my presentation effectively. How can I seek out guidance to do this, not just winging it? I think that that is really, really wonderful, and something that we couldn't all you know, take into consideration we might know our material really well, and we might be able to speak passionately about it, but to really communicate it effectively on a time schedule with different personalities in the room. Even though we're all you know, massage therapists, body workers, we still got all we got different attention spans and personalities. So yeah, it's just really, really wonderful to hear you say that. Like I said, I'm petrified of it, but it gives me a little bit more confidence. And the way that, the way you described it, you

should join my group. Should come out. You should come out and join my group, just virtually for a night and see what it's like. And you wouldn't have to necessarily do a speech. You just get to, like, watch it all kind of happen and unfold, and then you would have a better understanding. I think we're scared of things that we don't know about. And then the more you learn about it, you're like, oh, okay, I'm not as scared anymore. So I'll send you the link. I'll see you on Tuesday night.

Okay, yeah, send me, send me the link. Yeah. I think that sometimes we also get it into our heads. I imagine, like, let's say Toastmasters. It was probably a boys club in the beginning, right? Potentially 100 years ago. Yeah, so you know, you might come at it with those expectations as well, or you're going in to learn communication. But who, some people in this group have been in it for so long, they're going to be better at it than me, and that whole imposter syndrome thing comes out, which is a major theme on this podcast as well. Yeah, thank you for, yeah, sharing that experience. How are we doing for time? Because I've got like three more categories to go through with. You go for it. Yeah, we're good, great. Okay, so we're jumping back to palliative care, and let's I want to talk about etiquette and, like, the environment. So you did mention, going back to you mentioned that you bring indoor shoes. Let's get into like the the tiny things might make a big difference. When you're in someone's home, it sounds like you're obviously very respectful. I think that we got the idea of how you represent yourself and how you're professional while still being very personable in in someone's home, or however you are showing up wherever they are. One. Thing one, one piece of feedback that I got from a caretaker was I bring my own hand towel and, like, soap just just in case, because you don't know where you're going, you know, or hand sanitizer nowadays as well, you don't know what the situation is going to be like at somebody's home. So I would always bring my own towel and so, and somebody was like, you know, out of all of the different kind of healthcare workers that travel through, you know, she was like, You're the only one that, like, brings your own, like, supplies, and I just like to be prepared, yep, coats, putting your shoes away. Like, can you walk us through again? Like, I you almost feel like this shouldn't need to be said, but I think that it does need to be said because how we act in our own home, or when we go over to like, grandmas or whatever, like it's it's different than when you're in someone else's home. So you really, you do want to like, really become like, turn on that professionalism a little bit more and just be respectful. Can you give some examples of how we can act appropriately in the home? Absolutely,

I'll just maybe just walk you through, like my routine of when I get to someone's home. So I always make sure that I don't block a vehicle in in the driveway, because I don't know if that's the caregivers or another healthcare professional. So if there's, you know, an empty space, I'll park beside a vehicle, but I'd never block another vehicle in or sometimes we'll park on the road if, if need be. I also travel with sidewalk salt in the winter time, because sometimes caregivers don't think of that, and I don't want to be slippering around. So I sometimes will sprinkle some salt on my way in and just be extra cautious, knowing on my way out, it'll be safer for me to get to my car, and like I'd mentioned earlier, I already have my speaker on and the music playing on low, with my phone on airplane mode before I even knock on the door. I also take a minute, not a whole minute, usually, like five to 10 seconds, to just take a breath before I knock on the door. I don't ring the doorbell, because if there's a dog in the house, I have a dog, he'll lose his marbles if somebody rings the doorbell. But if you do a gentle Knock, and I usually do like a like, kind of like a musical knock, so that they know Olivia is here, and then I put the sign on the door, massage in progress, and I would come in if I'm wearing my big clunky winter boots, or I have outdoor running shoes in the summertime, I slip those off, and I have my indoor shoes in a bag, and I would take the bag and wrap it up and just put it inside my shoe, my outdoor shoe, so that my shoes are there. My bag is there for when I go to depart. And then if I'm taking my coat off, I would say, is there somewhere you'd like me to leave this? And if they're like, I'll just throw it on the on the bench, then I'll do that. And if they're like, let me hang that up for you. Then I allow them to do that for me, and at that point, once I'm in the house, I would maybe turn the volume up on the music, one or two, just so that they know. As I'm walking into the person's home or living room, or wherever the person is that I'm going to work on, I'm bringing the music with me. It's like it's following me in my bag. And I do have a couple different bags. I've got a 31 bag that has all kinds of compartments for if I'm just going to see one person, and I have a larger bag if I'm actually offering caregiver massage as well. So it depends on like, what the service is. I have two different bags that I take with me, and in that bag I have paper towel, sanitizing wipes, warmed up, massage oil, a hot water bottle, not with boiling hot water, just warm water, as well as a plug in heat pack. And the reason I take the hot water bottle is you can't always rely on a plug in being close enough to the person to use a plug in heat pack or thermophore. So having something mobile is is really handy, as well as, you know, business cards and the battery operated candles. There's a whole bunch of stuff that goes in my kit. And then as I'm going into the room, I'm not like rushing around. I actually move, not in slow motion, but I move in a slow pace. And say, you know, good afternoon or good morning. It's nice to meet you today. Thank you for having me come in today. I'm just going to set a few things up. While we get set up, we can chat, and then we'll get started in a minute, because people typically think my massage started four minutes ago, and you're setting up candles, and that's cutting into my massage time. So I allow people to I just am honest with them. I'll say, you know, we're going to start in a few minutes, but me turning on my candles and getting the music adjusted is not part of your treatment time, like your hands on time is starting in a few minutes. So just take a breath and and then we get started. We do our treatment. I don't travel with a hand towel, but I do teach my participants in my workshop, I'll put three pieces of paper towel folded up in each of my pockets. So if I get to the bathroom and wash my hands and the towel is kind of cruddy looking, I have a clean piece of paper towel to dry before my treatment as well as after. I'm also a little bit of a germaphobe, so it kind of goes hand in hand with that. And then as I'm getting ready to leave, I kind of just do everything in reverse. I try not to spread stuff out all over their room, like, I'm not going to put candles here and a speaker there and a box of Kleenex over here, like I'm not going to spread my stuff out. I try and kind of keep it on one side. Table, or what have you, so that I'm not rushing around at the end of the treatment, collecting things or leaving things behind. That's only ever happened once I left my speaker and I was very embarrassed. But luckily, people realize that no one's perfect, so it's not a big deal. But I think it just depends on, you know, the tone of voice you use, the speed with which you move, if you're rushing around that makes other people feel rushed. So I think all of those little details come into play, and we do go over that, and we actually we practice all of these skills in my workshop as well, so that when people leave the workshop, they just feel confident in their skills and how they're going to carry themselves and be professional and just uphold that ethical boundary of you know, we've been invited into these people's homes, and we are healthcare professionals, so let's show up as one. You know, wear scrubs. We're clean. Don't have like, broccoli in your teeth, things like that. Like, I think it involves us being a little bit more aware of our own selves. Yeah, I

agree with like, like the no broccoli in your teeth. It is a good one. Are you still? Are you masking? Do you advise that we mask around people who are at end of life, just out of consideration? Or

I typically don't mask unless someone asks me to, or if I walk in again, I'm being observant. If there is masks at the front door, I travel with a package of sealed masks in my bag, so I'm always prepared if I need them. But if I walk in and there's, you know, hand sanitizer and masks at the front door, I'll ask, Would you like me to wear a mask while I'm here? And if they're anxious, they'll be like, yes please. And you throw, like, sanitize your hands and throw it on right away. And if they're like, Oh no, that's just, if you know, the sick grandkids come over, we make them wear them. So just again, building that communication. I think it just depends on yourself, like I will never go to someone's home or long term care if I'm unwell. Luckily for me, knock on wood, I'm pretty healthy. I do a lot of things to take care of myself and try and prevent illness, but if I have a tickle in my throat or a runny nose, I'm not going to see someone who's dying or anyone in general. I'm not having I have work at my house two days a week, and I would cancel clients if I was unwell, because I think it's a respect thing. I know several massage friends of mine are will will tell me, Oh, I had a bit of a runny nose, or my throat was feeling scratchy, so I wore a mask to work. And I'm like, if I were on the table and you were coughing and like, having to take breaks to wipe your nose and sanitize I wouldn't feel comfortable having my massage. I would have rather had my massage rescheduled or canceled or whatever, but again, bit of a germaphobe, so I'm a different cat, but I think you just have to go with what people prefer. And obviously, you know, if someone is more comfortable having a mask on, I will wear one, without a doubt, not a problem. But typically, people will leave cues, or they'll tell you ahead of time in that conversation with the caregiver, you know, no matter who you are, you're wearing a mask in our home. I hope you're okay with that, absolutely on the E where you are. No problem. Are you still masking? Actually,

for my palliative I am, and I just feel like I'm in their home. Don't I feel well, but you still don't know necessarily, and I just feel that I get still, kind of the tail end of things. I'm not nervous. I'm not like, certainly a germaphobe. I see that. But then, you know, in public school, people thought I was in love with the sink because I washed my hands so much so maybe a little

bit. We were friends for a reason. Remember, like

in primary school, when you had like, the sink inside the classroom. As soon as I came in from recess, I would wash my hands. It was just, I don't know why nobody else did it, but I always did, probably

because you were gonna go eat lunch, and it's gross to, like, touch them random surfaces and then put things in your mouth. Exactly,

wild. Yeah, yeah. Is wild. And actually, at the clinic right now, not in like, the major areas, but like, when I'm in treatment, when I start treatment, I am masking, and I'm sort of just doing that through the winter, like, to get over, like, that cold and flu season. I might be okay moving forward now, and I'm not nervous. I like, but I just want, I just want to protect my clients and myself. And you know, you know, one of my practice, the massage therapist that I work with, he was like, it's too expensive to be sick. And I was like, yes, yes, it is so absolutely trying to do the best that you can with your self care and then then the masking. But, yeah, um, going back to you, you mentioned a little bit about how your perspective on on on, life has shifted by doing this work and also with your own experience. You know, having, you know, you were unsure about the like the outcome of that, the breast cancer, so you decided to go on this epic mountain hike. Yeah. You know, being close to the end of life often changes the way that you think about your own obviously, and, and, and what other like, what ways has this shifted that your perspective and what on what matters the most to you?

Um, it definitely has shifted my perspective, because not everyone that I go and work with is an older person. So I've had a couple instances where I've. Worked with 20, 3040, year old clients that are at end of life and that it just affects you in a different way when it's either your age or younger. I think we just start looking at things like, ultimately, we're all going out the same door. Eventually, none of us are getting out of here alive. Like 100 years from now, we'll all be gone. Someone else will be here, taken over. But it's changed my perspective, because I feel like there's a ticking time bomb for all of us, and not all of us are given necessarily an old age or retirement or health into our old age. So things that you know, like for myself and my husband, we've made a list of places we want to travel to or things we want to do, and we'd like to say, oh, when we're retired, we'll do this, that and the other thing. But the truth is, retirement isn't promised to anyone, so finding that balance between what's important and how can we make it happen? So for myself, I I could spend a lot of money renovating my kitchen. My house was built in the 80s. It's a beautiful home, but it could be made more modern, and I don't care. My sink works, my counter works, and it's not modern and hip and in and and whatever. And I just don't care, as long as it's functional, it's not important to me. So if I had to choose to spend $50,000 on renovating my kitchen or spending $50,000 for my children's education and travel and having experiences. Those are my choices. Same with my vehicle, like I have an older vehicle, I don't shop a lot. I don't really care. I buy things at the thrift store, or I'll buy if I need, you know, basic T shirts or tank tops. I'll go to Value Village or giant tiger or Walmart or Joe Fresh or whatever. I just to keep up with the Joneses and by name brand things seems wasteful to me, and everyone has their own opinions about how they want to spend their money and their time, but I just want to spend my time with people who are important to me, that I love, and I want to do things with those people that are important to me, like hiking and having family dinners and playing board games or card games, or having deep conversation, or even just like, going for a walk with my neighbor, like I did that yesterday, and she's lovely. She's like, Oh, I need a knee replacement. I can't walk very fast. I'm like, I don't care the sun's shining. I just wanted to hang out with you. Let's go for a 20 minute walk. So I think your perspective shifts when you realize that all of us are dying all the time, whether we have a terminal illness or not, and then figuring out what's important to you, like some people might really like getting Starbucks and driving a fancy car and wearing name brand clothes, maybe that's what makes them happy, and that's great. Everyone has their own values of what is important to them, and those just aren't on my list. I want to see as much of the world and explore and experience as much as I can before my time's up. And I often think in my own mind, what if this is the last year that I'm alive? Like it's April right now, and I think like, what if today is the last April 13 that I am on planet Earth? How do I need to make today count so things like that? It's called mortality motivation. When you start looking at your own ticking clock, you start looking at things in a different way, and prioritizing your time and your energy and your finances on what actually matters to you, instead of going along with what society thinks that you should be spending your time and money on. So I hope that answers your question, yeah,

that's how you would answer the question. That's one that's great. Like, yeah, I agree with that, that perspective and you know, what's valuable to you and not keeping up with the Joneses. And everybody does spend money differently, but like, we're, like you said, we're all going out the door the same, the same way. What if this is the last year, like you said, April 13, it is does really shift that perspective. And I also feel in our line of work, you know, as you've already mentioned, like, sometimes we just, we work, we work, we work. Yes, we're helping people, but how? How are we experiencing life? And because it is such, you have to be so present to do this work. Well, make it worth something for your own life as well. Pour so much into other people that I just feel like it is so important to to, you know, reflect on what is important to us as well and to act on it. Certainly something I'm still, still working on as well. And I agree you get retirement is not guaranteed. You know, I bring up Tim Ferriss a lot on this podcast, but, you know, he's got many, he encourages many retirements as well to, you know, like, enjoy, enjoy life and and spend the money and travel well in in small increments. Now, because we we're not guaranteed retirement, yeah, and, and even even still, like, at the end of that time. Period when you've got all your money, you might not have the health and to travel. So, yeah, it is really important. What's, what's one thing you wish more massage therapists knew about working with clients near the end of life.

I wish they knew how valuable it was and how much it's appreciated by the person. I think it sometimes gets overlooked, like, you know, I'll take care of you to a certain point, but once you get to that point, I don't know how to deal with that, so I'm not going to treat you, or I'm not comfortable, or whatever. I think sometimes people miss, miss the opportunity to show up for people. And it's been so amazing to see, you know, the transformation working on someone who's got, you know, like a furrowed brow and whatnot. You give them a massage, and like, you can visibly see them relaxing. I just think being more open and being more willing to try it, because it's really beautiful, and ultimately, like I said, we're all going out the same door. So you almost have to think like, how do you want to be treated at your end of life experience? Do you want people to feel awkward and not come and see you and not come and touch you and take care of you, or do you want people to flood in and, you know, massage you or hold your hand or stroke your face or comb your hair or whatever? Like you kind of have to start thinking of it from that perspective and then just be more open and more willing. Yeah, wonderful.

Any closing thoughts that you'd like to finish with? Olivia,

we covered so much. I think the only thing that you had asked, and then I think I got derailed a little bit, was about the end of life doula course that I took, which was phenomenal. The course itself was an eight week course out of the University of Vermont. I would recommend it to anyone who is is working in the end of life arena. It was a really eye opening and inspiring and educational. It's definitely different than massage therapy. So I haven't actually figured out how I'm going to offer end of life doula services, because it is there are some things that are outside of our scope. Like to sit with a with a client and do a legacy project for three hours and help them, you know, write letters to their family. That's not a massage therapist job, so I'm going to have to be careful to take my massage therapy hat off and put my end of life doula hat on. But it is a really interesting opportunity to kind of help navigate and it's called companion, an end of life individual, and allow them to talk about their fears or talk about their anxieties, and then just show up for them to help them with whatever it is they need. You know, if they if they want to write letters to 15 people, but writing is physically, you know, uncomfortable for them, they can dictate it. You can write it for them and post them and send them in the mail. Or if they need, you know, some help around their house. Like, you know the family's coming to visit and no one's cleaned the bathroom. Like not signing up to be a cleaning lady, but like to wipe off a mirror and clean off a sink and empty a garbage is not a big deal. So there's just different things that end of life doulas do that is not the same as massage therapy. So the course itself was amazing, and I do want to start offering some end of life doula services, probably not till the fall, because I do have a busy summer, and I don't want to overburden my schedule, but, but yeah, for anyone who's interested in it, we do have a couple programs in Canada. So Douglas College offers a program, and the Institute for traditional medicine in Toronto offers an end of life doula program as well. And then the University of Vermont, their eight week program was phenomenal for me. And I'd asked a few other people who had taken all three of the courses, and that was the one that they had recommended. So that's why I took it. But there are lots of options, you know, whether you can do weekends or whatever. So if anyone else is interested, I would definitely suggest for them to look into it. Excellent.

And then for your own course. One of the reasons why you are busy this year is because you're offering your your own course this year as well. Do you want to go over how people can get in touch with you to learn more?

Absolutely. Yeah. So on my website, under upcoming workshops, there's a poster that's available that people can kind of look through the overview of what's covered in the three day course, but it is a full three days. It's actually planned on purpose, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, so that at the end of your three day course, you then have Sunday to recalibrate, get your groceries, have a nap, and actually go to work not feeling burnt out. So I did teach it a few weeks ago in Guelph, and it went really, really well with the participants. It was a beautiful weekend with a lot of sharing and great hands on practical skills. And the next course coming up is actually in September in London, the last weekend in September. And then the next one after that is the last weekend in October, is going to be an Ancaster. So if people are wanting to learn a little bit more, they can go and check out my website. They can register online, or if they have any specific questions, they can just send me an email and and reach out anytime if they want to chat.

Great. So we'll make sure, obviously, all of that contact information is in the show notes. And great. Thank you. Link, yeah, I'll put a link to your workshop in there as well. Well, Olivia, it's. Thank you for being on the radical massage therapist podcast. You are an example of the exact type of person that I love, speaking to on on the podcast, sharing your story, just showing massage therapists what is possible in this career, how we can evolve, how we can be more confident and comfortable with unique situations. So yeah, so thank you for sharing your time on the podcast. I really appreciate it. Thank

you so much for having me. You do all this work and run a business and do so many cool things. I know we follow each other online, and I'm always like, I wish Krista lived closer. I would love to hang out with her on a regular basis, but an eight hour drive is no joke for a tea date. Maybe we'll have to join up on a Toastmasters meeting and hang out, but thank you for having me. You