Ep 6: What The Mountains Can Teach Us About Life: Unleashing independence and confidence through outdoor living and learning.
2:57PM May 9, +0000
Speakers:
Shelli Ann Garland
Cormac Lynch
Keywords:
people
mountains
felt
friends
mountaineering
realise
learning
thought
outdoors
good
climbing
life
day
fia
cormac
adventure
important
knowing
job
experience
Hello, and welcome to a dash of salt. I'm Dr. Shelli Ann and I'm so glad you're here. Whether you stumbled upon this podcast by accident, or you're here because the subject drew you in welcome. Salt is an acronym for society and learning today. This podcast was created as an outlet for inviting fresh discussions on sociology and learning theories that impact your world. Each episode includes a wide range of themes that focus on society in everyday learning, whether formal or informal. So let's get stuck in shall we.
Welcome to a dash of salt. Today I'm joined by my friend Cormac Lynch. Cormac is a mountain leader who's been hiking rock climbing and mountaineering for over 25 years in Ireland, Scotland, Wales, in the Alps, the Dolomites Africa and North America. He's a highly skilled member of the Dublin and Wicklow mountain rescue team, and he's owner of FIA mountaineering, where he runs nationally accredited two day courses in maps, maps and compass navigation for Hill walkers and mountaineers. Cormac is also a writer and is currently writing a book called 32 summits with 32 friends about his experiences climbing the highest mountain in every county in Ireland, each one with a different friend. I'm delighted to have you on the podcast today to speak with you about the history and the inspiration for your book, your experiences, undertaking this ambitious challenge to set that you set for yourself and the lessons that you've learned during your 32 month adventure. I also want to talk to you a bit about what can be learned through your work as a as a mountain guide, and a skilled skills instructor, for your students and for yourself. So you're very welcome today, Cormac.
Thanks very much. And thanks for having me alone.
Firstly, tell us a little bit about your background and how you came to love the outdoors. And what inspired you to embark on this 32 month climbing and hiking adventure of yours.
I grew up in Wicklow town and was very lucky to grow up there because it's right by the sea. And it's close to the mountains. And I had a real kind of classical outdoor kid lifestyle, you know, just coming home from mealtimes. My parents not really knowing where I was when I went out the door, just having a vague idea that I'd gone left and not right. And that would mean I'd be in one neck of the woods rather than the other. That was fantastic. And I'm very grateful for that upbringing, reading adventure books, you know, Famous Five and swallows and Amazons and things like that growing up as a kid that sort of instilled in me a love of adventure, and swallows and Amazons led me directly into sailing and buying sailing dinghy. And that led me into cruising, you know, yachts and cruisers, and you're racing and sailing to Wales and back it back to Ireland and all that kind of stuff. So it was a great upbringing. That's just translated into an adulthood of adventure as well.
Well, I had the wonderful privilege of joining you on your 32nd summit. And it was an experience of a lifetime for me. And we'll talk a teeny bit about that in a little bit here. But can you tell the listeners exactly what your project and what the book is all about?
Sure. Well, the project, I suppose, didn't start as a project at all. In my own head, it was really two separate things. On New Year's Eve, I saw, you know, how am I gonna do but one of my resolutions for this upcoming year, and one of them was to be in better touch with my friends. You know, as we grow older, we kind of we get busy lives. And you realise I haven't seen some of my friends or haven't talked to my friends in a while. So I figured, look, let's be proactive. And let's actually pick up the phone and talk to people. And the second one was a bit more personal. I had seen somebody had climbed all the county high points in Ireland, and I thought that'd be a nice thing to do when I became a mountain leader. And I have two large days in Ireland, going around the various mountain ranges. And that was a great way to see a bit of Ireland and I thought, you know, what, why don't I see the mountains in every county and climb the county high points. So those are my two kind of New Year's resolutions and I innocently thought that's great, you know, they're completely unrelated. And they kind of trucked along in my mind for that evening, New Year's Eve. And then I thought, hang on, if I bring a different friend with me each time that I can These 32 summit's I'm gonna spend a day with 32 different friends, that would be a really nice way to, you know, use both resolutions as a benefit to me this coming year. And innocently again, I just thought that was just gonna be me hillwalking with a couple of friends. But then if it really took off, I suppose one friend suggested that would be a great book. And I thought, well, actually, it would be a great book, it would be great to record what we're doing, as we go along, and to, you know, have to have conversation with the friends and say, what's gone on in your life, what made you the person you are what's happened with you. And I recorded people on the trips much like this chat. And other words, you and I are sitting down in a warm house. Now, sometimes it wasn't quite that warm up on the trips, but you know, it, I had all my notes on I sat down, and I wrote the first draft of the book. And I'm now on the second draft, and I'm on chapter 20, out of 32. So it's going really, really well. And it's one of the good things about being locked down that I have a bit of time to, to write a book. So I'm enjoying that.
But I think that you've touched on something that's really important, it's that idea of connecting with friends on it, where you can set aside sort of the the technology and the digital toys and whatnot, and be able to just have you know, that that those experiences with your friends that are very wholesome, and outdoorsy, and, you know, just to have real conversations, that I think that a lot of times are missing. Having these, you know, special conversations one on one with somebody so on. That's really interesting. I know that out of 32 summits, you've had lots of memories that you've gained. And I guess what I want to ask you is what was your most memorable, memorable climb and why?
The I suppose, the one that had the biggest impact on the on the project is probably the most memorable one. Because of that, they were all great. They all they all had something to give. And that was the joy of bringing a different friend each time it was it was a different day, each time in a different adventure, five of the mountains, straddle two counties, so there'll be the highest mountain in two counties. So sometimes when people are trying to county high points, they will, they will say, Great, I've got two for the price of one, I don't need to come back because I've climbed a mountain, that's the highest in two counties. Whereas I took the view, no, I want to give each county any trend their own day. And so we went to 32 times, but the one that had the greatest impact. It was the second one, it changed the whole, the whole nature of the project. And it changed it from a personal idea, just me with my new year's resolution into something, a project that people were following on Facebook, strangers, people who've never met me at all, were following us on Facebook, we obtained the key to a passage way on the top of Slieve NAkali in countyMeath, and we were able to stand inside the passage grave. And when you're there, you're thinking about all of the rocks above your head and the corbelled roof and particularly the bigger rocks, looking at them and just knowing that if any of those rocks fall, they're going to kill you. But then you stop and think, well, it's been there for 4000 years, it's probably not going to fall in the next five minutes while I'm in here. And there's a connection, I guess, down through time with every single person who's stood in there, and looked up at that ceiling on top, gotta hope that rock doesn't fall on my head, it's gonna kill me. And, you know, regardless of who we are, or what our circumstances are, or where we are, in those 4000 years, there's a kind of a human connection that everybody has felt the same, the same emotion standing inside there. And that was amazing. And after that, we went and searched for the house in which my mother grew up in county Meath, and it took us a long time a lot of searching. And we you know, we met neighbours of hers who remembered her, remembered my grandparents and who were you know, able to tell me things that I was already telling to my friend john who would come along he was the friend on that summer. And I suppose on that day, boats standing in 4000 year old passage grave you know, listening to the the kind of whispers of history echoing down through time to us. And then, more recently, more personally standing outside the house in which my mother grew up and listening to neighbours. Tell stories about her and my grandparents, you know, people who have been dead for years and years but but who were still remembered in that neighbourhood, it made me you know, realise that the project was not going to be about me climbing some mountains, it was going to be about our relationship, that landscape in which we live in our relationship to one another, and how we commemorate our loved ones last and how we engage with one another while we're still alive. And, you know, we're, you realise when you're standing inside a building that's stood for 4000 years, you know, how fleeting is our own time here on Earth, and how important it is to make the most of it. So the project wasn't really about the mountains anymore. They were just a framework. And it certainly wasn't about me, it was about the people we met along the way, both alive and dead. And about how we remember and revere one another.
Yeah. And like you said, it's, it's fantastic that that was your second, second climb or, your second outing, because I'm sure that's probably one of your driving and motivational factors continuing on, waiting for sort of those aha moments and those experiences along the way with the all of those who came after the 30 times after?
Absolutely, because, I guess, knowing knowing what the team, if you like, of the project was, after only the second so much, it meant that I was able to look out for it and see it. Once I knew what the project was about. I was able to see it every time I went out. And, and that was just a gift. That was That was amazing. And, you know, the idea of of knowing exactly what what this project would entail, and it knowing exactly what I needed to make it a success was was phenomenal. And have that right at the outset was amazing.
You know, you said that you were sort of audio recording the conversations that you were having with your friends. And, and obviously, as part of my research, I did a qualitative study. So I had a lot of these rich in depth conversations with volunteers. And they're so significant to me that a lot of times I'll go back and listen to those conversations, and to get another nugget of wisdom or you know, something really remarkable. So this next question that I have for you is based on that, what were some of the conversations or interactions that you had with your any of your 32 friends that stick with you today? And why are they so significant?
One that certainly jumps out of me would be Dennis O'Sullivan, who came with me on Summit 18, in Monoghan. And I didn't particularly know Dennis terribly well, neither of us knew each other terribly well. We had met a couple of times on some guided walks for Tomica mountain rescue team, and I was the guide. And he was in the group. And he'd come back to second year, and jumped into my group again. So you know, we kind of were Facebook friends and all that kind of thing. And the way I had sourced Turkey to people to do the walks with meat was simply put it up as a status on Facebook, I didn't pick anybody to come along. I just said this is what I'm doing. Who wants to come along? And kind of the first 32 people then we're the 32. And so Dennis was one of the people who had said, Yeah, I'm interested in doing that. And my second rule was, once people have self selected, once you're in, you're in, and that's it, I'm not going to, I'm not going to choose the people that I would normally choose because that would be a bit predictable. And it would sort of defeats the purpose of what I wanted to do. So I wound up, you know, on walks with people that I didn't know, some of them, I didn't know that, well, they might have been the friend of a friend or the brother, a sister of somebody that I knew. So I would have met them for sure. It wasn't that they were strangers, but I wouldn't have necessarily known them that well. And for some of them, I guess it was it was a unique situation that we went off and spent a whole day together climbing a mountain even though we didn't know what to do particularly well. But Dennis and I had, you know, we didn't know each other all that well. They're all that long, but we got on really well. And that's a start I was kind of thinking, you know, how, how will we How will we manage a full day of conversation on the mountains when we don't know each other. But it was the opposite of that. We just we just chatted and gone like a house on fire, which was fantastic. He had a lot of different little stories that all revolved around his life growing up in Blennerville in county Kerry, and a lot of them were revolved around his dad and his grandfather. They worked on the railway down there and they lived on railway terrace. And, you know, their their whole kind of lives revolved around the train times Like, you know, the next train is coming in at 10 past five, so we have to be here for that kind of thing. So that he had some lovely stories about just people coming in and off the train and with nowhere to stay and Dennis's parents would put them up in the railway has just look after people, it kind of harkens back to almost like, you know, the golden age of steam railway kind of thing, it was that sort of feel of when the railway was, like a really important part of, of the community and of the rural community and of towns and villages. And when I guess the railway in its day was the internet, you know, it was it was the connectivity. And as a result of that it had huge important stuff that, you know, we've kind of forgotten about nowadays, the significance of the railway has diminished hugely with the advance of telephone, and fax, and email, and internet and all these kind of things. But back in the day, the railway was a big deal. And to be involved in the railway was to be an important person in the community. And the, you know, listening to Dennis's stories and listening to a bit of pride in his voice, I can even hear myself getting emotional now. You know, be like the pride of his voice, this talking about his father and, and just how important railway life was to them. That was great. That was those, those ones, the ones that really sticks out for me.
And that and I'm sure that that connection you made with somebody who was essentially, you know, just an acquaintance. And now you know, this connection that you have with them, and how much more deeply you know him. And in the way that in which you selected your your participants, if you will, your your friends to walk with, it really speaks of that idea of community and belonging. And, and bringing that that idea of that wider community together to make more intimate and closer connections with others. And then here, you tell the story about how, at one time the railroad was that, that sort of that connection, that way of connecting. And so it's it's, it's it just gives you that wonderful sort of idea and visual about the interconnectedness of relationships and how important it is. So, I remember myself, being really so excited on so many levels to be part of the the 32 month Odyssey that you that you were had undertaken. And, and being the last to climb on this adventure felt really momentous to me. And it was momentous to me, for me what I was thinking it was going to do for me, but also what it was going to do for you. And I got to experience this moment with you crossing that proverbial finish line, you know, when when he when we both reached the top of Mount Errigal together, and looking over the valley valley below and being really in awe. And, you know, I just remember, for me, it felt like an opportunity as an American living and working in Ireland, who, who often feels like an outsider here, you know, even though obviously, all my friends and people that I've met and worked with and that kind of thing, Um have always been very embracing and open with me, I would still have that tendency to feel like an outsider. But, um, you know, sometimes I do feel like I don't really belong here. And so being able to go up Mount Errigal, with you, you know, was that ability for me to experience what I called my Ireland and to embrace Ireland in a way that I think that sometimes many Irish take for granted. You know, I've had conversations with many of my friends sitting now that I've been living here for five years, who have said, Oh my goodness, you've been to more places, counties, you know, than I have, and I've lived here my whole life. But for you, for you, this was a journey of 32 long months. And it was a labour of love and loss and everything in between. And it was finally coming to pass. And I felt like that's what represented when you know you and I stood at the tippy top of that peak. So was there ever a point that you that maybe you had wanted or felt like you were going to give up or maybe one of one of your 32 friends, you know, felt nervous or felt like they wanted to give up or throw in the towel? And if so, how did you overcome it
standing on the very first some of Gahltee Mohr with Cian and I didn't want to give up but I was kind of thinking wow, if I bitten off more than I could chew here because we were so good to the skin. You know where like when your underwear is wet. I used absolutely soaked five hours in the rain and driving sideways rain and the wind and so on. And we were at the summer. And I thought, okay, you know, we're only halfway today we've got to go back down. And the weather isn't showing any signs of improving. So I'm kind of halfway through today, and I've got 31 and a half summits left to go. Cian is a good HillWalker mountaineer, you know, but there are some other people on the list, who, you know, wouldn't have a huge amount of hillwalking experience, and they did sign up on New Year's Eve, you know, is this a good idea? I get to be bringing people up mountains like this and getting soaked and so on. Will that work out? Okay. So I don't I didn't want to give up. But I was I did have a bit of trepidation about how well Will this work. But it It worked. And, you know, after about three or four summits, when people were following me on Facebook, and, you know, it became very real, for for other people and became very real for me then. So, no, I there was never a point at which I wanted to give up. And it was only that one moment at some level. galtee Moreover, where I thought oops, is a good idea. And all of the people who signed up, you know, they were great, they absolutely brought their A game and including you. And you know, gave it socks and got on board. And I think as as the project went along, and they could see it on Facebook, I think people got very interested people who were in on the list, or contact me and saying, I just looked at your, your, your adventure from last week, and I can't wait for my want to come along. So I think it was kind of the opposite. I think people got more and more enthusiastic as it went along rather than less so. And thankfully on all of the days when the weather was against us we soldiered through, it was never, never a day when we didn't so much. There was never a day when we turned around and said, Oh, no, the weather's too bad. It was too bad, lots of the time, but we just soldiered on through, there's really only two days where we were absolutely, you know, fully soaked.
I would imagine that there were times when when you felt this enormous, you know, responsibility for the people that that, you know, we're going to be doing the climate's with you. And and sometimes in making those decisions, you know, should be turned back, like, you know, do we turn back do we keep pressing on, I remember hanging again, you know, it was absolute stunning, beautiful morning and day when we made that drive towards Mount Errigal. And it was a beautiful getting started. And I and I remember we haven't gotten very far up and anybody who's kind of climbed around Mount Errigal there's a sort of a in you'd be better to tell this I think than me but a small area where it's nothing but sort of rocks and you know, in your kind of grabbing on to get it to get to me, it felt like I felt like I was climbing straight up. And I was a bit of in a bit of a panic, I remember myself thinking, Oh my gosh, like, I'm not going to be able to do this if this whole thing is like this. And then all of a sudden, the wind picked up and I remember you tucking me into a little crevice or a crease, you know, we tucked ourselves in, we put on our windbreakers our jacket zipped ourselves up. And we just kind of stayed there for a few minutes with the wind and we were seeing people coming down and and they were like, Ooh, it's getting rough up there. You know, are you guys just heading up and that kind of thing. And I remember myself being in a bit of a panic. But I also remembered that I was with what was with somebody who was very skilled, who was who wouldn't put me in danger. And, you know, that was that was really a powerful moment. For me I think it was a powerful learning moment to know that I could A overcome some of my fears. And but B knowing that I was with somebody that I could trust that you know, was going to make sure that you know have that again, that audacious responsibility that you have for all of us. But you're so skilled and and i think that that was um you know, sort of an again an important learning experience for me. And I'm sure that even as a skilled guide and and all these experiences that you've had, you probably still have learning moments too. And so that's my question for you now is what did you learn from doing the 32 summits with 32 friends
I learned a lot really and some of it myself some better other people and some of that life and I always go back to that that day on Errigal the two of us together. One thing that I've always found is important in the in the mountains are in life is that when when people give you advice like the well meaning people who tell It's it's very windy up there dunkel that's advice, it's not instruction, and you don't know who they are, you know, and you can't sort of necessarily take the advice of strangers at face value. You have to, you know, added added for sure to the to the heap of advice, you've got an added to your own wisdom and your own experience and your own research and what's happening in front of you, what can you see in front of you? So they didn't particularly know that we, we were going to be okay, that we had plenty of you. I mean, they were they were coming down, I remember the people who were telling us, it was very windy, were dressed in T shirts, and we had all the proper gear. So yeah, you know, okay, it's probably not gonna be as cold for us as it is for them. And we knew what we were going to do. And I felt where we are right now, we're not in any danger. So let's keep on going. And if it gets more dangerous, then let's dial it back. And if it gets too dangerous, then let's turn back. And that that's, I guess, one of the things that I've learned in the mountains, and it applies to life as well. You know, keep on going. See how you feel, you know, dynamically risk assess. So, you know, ask yourself every so often is it still okay? Am I still comfortable with this level of risk? have things changed? And if they haven't, or if they have and you're still, it's still within your comfort zone? Well, then keep going. But keep an eye on it. And if the risk gets too much, then yes, you need to turn back and obviously you need to not be overcommitted that you can't turn back. So I suppose having an escape plan or an escape route is important. But making your own decisions is the most important part for not that's mountaineering is all about self reliance. But so is life really ultimately when it comes down to it now we have obviously a lot of people to to look after us in life and in mountaineering you do too, you have your partner on the other end of the rope, if you're if you're into serious mountaineering, but you got your part like you did that day, you had a partner who's bringing you up who was looking after you. And that's that's what mountaineering is about partners being self reliant teams of people being self reliant. And I think that's what life is about having a good team around you. People, you can trust people, people who will take the risk with you, but will also let you know that this is too risky, we need to we need to move back back from the edge routers, the metaphorical or the real edge.
Yeah. And before we move on to we're going to start talking a little bit more about your business, FIA mountaineering and we're going to talk about your work that you do in the with the rescue team. And we're going to talk a little bit about play and leisure and that kind of thing. But before we do that, I just wanted to say what another sort of aha moment for me, which still gives me a chuckle, even to this day was when we were I don't I don't know where exactly we were up on the mountain. But once we get off the cliff face, and I realised I was surviving that which in reality listeners, it wasn't a cliff face. But for me, it was it was pretty steep and craggy.
I'm glad you said that. Because I
know, I know. That's what I wanted to say. For me, it felt like, you know, the scariest thing in the world. But when we got up off from that, and I thought, Oh, my goodness, I'm almost there. I'm gonna make it, you know. And we, you know, we really had only just submitted the first little, little bit, but I remember all of a sudden, the wind picked up and it was mighty and it was fierce. And we were being pelted with this rain in this mist. And I was like, where did this weather come from? I feel like we're in a storm and you're like, Shelli we're in a cloud. And I was I had never experienced being in a cloud before and what that meant, and, you know, again, it was like a be experiencing all these different levels of, you know, of newness that I had never experienced before. But just, you know, I just remember looking at you and I'm like, I felt like I had my hands up and I was shouting, what is this weather and you were like, we're in a cloud. Like it's nothing it's
that's the thing. That's the thing, I suppose most people don't experience clouds other than their, their open the sky, but to actually be in the clarity need to stick your head out of the window of your plane or climb up on an Irish mountain where the clouds come down to meet you. And it is it is quite an experience because it's it feels like rain. It's it's not raining. It's just the clouds sitting on the mountain. But for all intents and purposes, when you're standing in it, it's it's as you described there, it's a windy, wet Maelstrom whirling around your head, and everybody else is driving pass down and Valley is going Oh, that's a pretty cloud, sitting on the top of the mountain and we're kind of in the middle of a thinking well, this is a this is definitely a workout from my rain gear.
And we're gonna go on again, like I said to you sort of your business and work and play and I have some questions here for you. And the first one is, have you always worked as a mountain leader?
No, is the simple answer No, I haven't. I have had a varied career really, which is good, I kind of think it's nice. There's a, there's a, there's definitely a value in having one career all your life, you know, being a really good dentist, because you're 40 years of experience as a dentist. But I think there's also value in having what we might call a modular career, where you can work at various different jobs and roles. And I think that rounds you out and develops you. And if you're clever about it, you can bring a skill set or a problem solving mentality, or some experience from one job into another job. When I was on a J1 (visa) in the States, I worked as a waiter, as a lot of people would have done in restaurants. And after I was there, while I was, you know, I knew what I was doing was a new kid in there, you're sounding like an American, there's a new kid that came in as a waiter. And it was his first day and he was kind of all over the place, which is fine. That was okay. And he took the last, the last mug of coffee out of the coffee pot for his customer. And he didn't, he didn't make a new pot of coffee. So when I came along, I had to make new coffee and wait for that. And then somebody else asked me for some help. And I was like, sorry, I can't, I have to do this. And then eventually that trickled down to he needed some help from somebody else. And they weren't able to, because he hadn't made the coffee, ever, there was a trickle down effect, that everybody was suddenly behind time. Whereas if he had made he, if he had made the coffee, I wouldn't have been delayed, the next person would have wouldn't have been delayed, and the next person would have and they would have been able to ask him or help him when he asked for help. So I think that the takeout, the take home message from that was, you know, it's, if you do your job, well, you facilitate other people doing their job well, and they then they have extra time in which they can help you if you do run into trouble and vice versa. So I've worked on a number of different things, I went back to the States after j one, and I worked in human resources in California for a couple of years. In a market research firm in Silicon Valley, I came back from that, and I wanted something a bit more. So it would have been more bite to it, maybe then human resources, I wanted something, you know, if the company makes widgets, I want to be one of the widget makers kind of thing. And I went from that from from being a systems engineer with that company, fixing the year 2000 bucks and saving the world into being a lawyer, a solicitor, which was kind of closing the circle, I guess, because I studied law in college. And I kind of felt now at the time is right for me to actually be a lawyer, I, when I came out of college, I didn't want to be a lawyer, I wanted to do different things. So time was including going to the states. So the time is right for you to be a lawyer. And I did that for a decade or more. And the firm I was in closed down. I was in one firm for eight years, and it closed down. Hopefully not my fault. I don't think it was anybody. It was a lot of law firms are closing down at the same time. And a lot of law firms are letting people go, which then fed into my not getting a new job but with a with another law firm because there were simply no jobs they were letting letting lawyers go, as opposed to hiring them. And I just thought, you know what, I've had a lot of responsibilities. And just in the last year, a number of things have a number of responsibilities if you have ceased for me. Now, at this point in time, the only responsibility I have is to myself and to my dog, I have to put food in the bowl for the dog and put food on the table for me, but I can do that at the moment. I don't need to be a lawyer right now. So I decided to kind of step off the treadmill and not be a lawyer at the same time as qualifying as mountain leader. And I thought you know, I'll be lucky if I get get to run a map and skills course once every six weeks or two months or something like that. But sure, I'll give it a go and it'll be a bit of pocket money and that'll be fun. And it just took off straightaway. And I've been running courses every weekend that I can plus or minus COVID restrictions. So it was an amazing sort of change I guess but it but I'm very happy where I am right now.
So Cormac, if you can tell me the name Fia, Fia, mountaineering, what is the significance or the meaning of Fia? Is it is it the name of somebody Or um, I was just very curious about what Fia means?
It is girl's name. But that's not how the company is named. As a lovely name If I had a daughter, I'd probably call her Fia. But she got I'm sure she got very upset. Realising that I named her after my business. It means deer in Irish and deer feel at home up in the mountains, they're sure footed up in the mountains, they thrive up in the mountains. I'd like people on my courses to feel that way too. And it also means to run wild. So when my friend Rosaline suggested that as a name for a mountaineering business, I thought, yeah, that works for me.
Yeah, that whole idea of, you know, just some, the freedom that you gain in the mountains and the freedom, the real freedom that you have, after everything that we've been talking about the real freedom that you gain, not only from being in experiencing the mountains, but also, you know, when you when you do take on some additional learning, and you, you know, take on, say, a mapping and a navigation course and that kind of thing, you are more sure footed in it, it does sort of increase that, that idea of freedom. So, obviously, you know, leading guides and walks and, and, and doing these courses, where you're teaching and doing something that you absolutely love in the outdoors. It sounds like a dream job. You know, you get you get paid to go hillwalking. And they say that if you love what you do, you'll never work a day in your life. Is it really as easy as all that? This job that you do now?
No, in a word? No. I think if if you love what you do, and your your job consists solely of doing that, then yes, it's probably very easy. But you know, that's when you have a whole staff of people to look after the admin and the accounts and all that kind of thing. But if you're, if you're self employed, and you're doing all of that yourself, then there are, I don't want to call them tedious. But you know, they're the more sort of mundane, perhaps, aspects to any job. It doesn't matter what class you are, if you're if you're, if you're a rock star, and you love playing and playing stadium tours in front of hundreds of 1000s of people, great, cool. But you probably still have to go back and do your own books. And, you know, whatever else it is that rock stars do. Yeah, I have to do the admin the booking the money stuff, the feedback for people, I enjoy doing it all I enjoy. I like my both my parents were self employed. So I'm reading and getting a kick out of being self employed. Now having been an employee, all my life, I'm really enjoying the idea that this is my little business, and I'm doing everything associated with it. But that includes, you know, all the all the kind of jobs just need to be done. But I'm enjoying doing those, I'm enjoying the advertising, I'm enjoying the feedback I'm enjoying, I guess I'm enjoying chasing people for money. But for the most part, people are very, very willing to you know, people are, you know, take my money, take my money. So that's great. The admin side of it, I suppose nobody particularly likes that when you when you think of any cool in inverted commas, cool job. Nobody thinks, oh, there's probably some admin involved in that as well. But there is. So from that point of view, yes, does work. And then from another point of view, it's, I don't just go hillwalking, and some people come along with me, you know, I have a curriculum that I got to work through, I teach people a whole lot of stuff in just a weekend. And I have to do it, right. Because if I do it wrong, they they might get into trouble later on, out in the mountains, I have to make sure that there's there what I'm teaching them is safe. And that they are understanding. I've always I've always found regardless of where where you're learning something, just a teacher being good at their, at their subject isn't enough, they have to be good at teaching the subject as well. You can have, you can be an expert, you can be an expert in the field, you can have all the information. But if you can't convey that information to somebody who's not an expert, then that then you're in trouble. And in particular, if you're if the if the information is going to you know, help that person safeguard themselves, you don't convey that information correctly, then that's not good. So I have to be able to get through a curriculum and teach people and make sure that they're learning. regardless of the circumstances. Regardless of the weather, it's easy to teach people on a beautiful sunny day, but when the wind is coming along and the rain is coming sideways on the wind, I still have to make sure that these people are learning as well as the sunny day people. And in particular, they've paid the same amount of money as the sunny day people. So you know, there's a huge onus on me to make sure I'm working through the curriculum, and maybe that means we're not going to go all the way up there. We're going to go over here instead. For more sheltered, and I have to, you know, on the hoof, I have to change my lesson plan and say, right, we can't go up there and do to talk about the thing I wanted to talk about up there, it is a really good example. But I can't talk about it, because they're not going to be up there. It's not, it's not safe. Instead, we're going to go down here and talk about something else that I need to bring it back. So that the people who are on today's course in the wind and the rain, don't miss out that they get the same exact same course, that that everybody else gets.
Yeah, and it comes back to that, again, that sense of that huge responsibility, that duty and an obligation that we have, as teachers, as educators to make sure that in whatever it is that we're teaching, you know, that they're getting the highest quality learning and education, and in teaching beyond just the subject, you know, and putting sort of your whole heart and soul into it. But making sure that you know, you know, having that idea that, that they come out of it with, you know, the highest, you know, sense of understanding that they can have opportunities, you know,
yeah, absolutely. Because if I, if I look at my bedroom window, and it's lashing rain, I still have to turn up with the same happy attitude that I that I try to put on it on a sunny day. Or if I'm having a bad day, and it's a sunny day, I still have to turn up with a good attitude, I have to present exactly the same course, to the people who've turned up on a day when I'm having a bad day, that, you know, my bad day shouldn't bleed into their day. So even if I'm not having a good day, even if I'm thinking, Oh, no, here's another rainy weekend, and I don't have a choice I have to turn off. I that's not the attitude I turn up with, I turn up with my eight, bring it game face, let's go bring your A game. I mean, I'm very grateful that I have that opportunity. I'm very grateful that people are saying we want to give you money, and have you teach us what you spent a lifetime learning. And, you know, when we are trudging up the hill in the driving rain, I say to people this, you know, this isn't this isn't the most one we've ever had on our lives, let's face it. But there are people in, you know, in hospital beds, who I am sure would gladly trade places with you. And I think even now, when we when we go back out, I think I'll be able to add in a little bit of, you know what, in when we were in lockdown, and you couldn't go two kilometres or five kilometres away from your home. And I said to you, hey, let's go up the mountains in the driving rain, we've got a special dispensation do that I think you'd all of bitten my hand off for that. So, you know, it's it's important to, it's important to, for me, I, for me, as a professional mountaineer, it's important for me to be professional. I am not just going hillwalking and people Hand me money at the end of it. That's kind of the opposite of what I'm doing. I'm delivering a course to people, I'm educating people. And I'm giving them value, not just value for money, but you know, value for their time that they've given up a weekend to come along with my course I want them to go away, feeling good about and I asked them at the end, do you feel? You know, do you feel that that was time well spent? And they're like, Oh, absolutely, absolutely, absolutely. And that for me. It's obviously it's good feedback for in an advertising sense. But it's very good feedback for me from a professional development sense, if you can see people really, really getting out of what you're trying to give to them. That's huge.
And that just segued perfectly into my next question. So you're obviously you know, you do work as an educator and as a facilitator, and there's really much to be said about the benefits of informal learning over formal learning. And informal learning, you know, differs greatly from formal learning because formal learning expects goals and outcomes from a specific experience, whereas informal learning relies on learning from that experience, if that makes sense to everybody. Other than the obvious hard hands on skills and qualifications of mapping and compass navigation that you that you teach to your that you instruct them that you teach. What do you feel that people take away from your courses? Maybe those softer skills?
I think they take away independence and self reliance. Those were the two main ones. I always say to people, you know, you're come here and you're interested in hillwalking, but you feel that you're not able to navigate that me quoting them back to them because I asked people at start, why are you here? What do you want to get out of this course and pretty much University. It's It's around the idea of, you know, I go on hillwalking trips with people, but I'd love to be able to do it myself, or I did try doing it myself, and then the cloud came in and I got lost and, you know, I kind of nervous I need to I need to know how to do this properly. And I said, well, that, you know, that's great, because that's what we do here. So, and it's, I always say, people, it's kind of like going from being a passenger in a car, to learning how to drive the car yourself. And the independence that that brings. mountaineering is about self reliance. And, you know, being able to be up there and say to yourself, I know, I know how to know where to go, I can go into the cloud and navigate my way through it. And I can plan, I can buy a map of somewhere I've never been before and look at it, and know what it's going to be like when I get there. And I can make a plan as to my itinerary is going to be, you know, on my kitchen table before I've even seen the mountains that I'm going to be on. And there's a huge, huge independence, I think, in that one client wrote back to me and said, You know, I went out with a friend and we went around the mountains, and the clouds came down, and my, I have my map and compass out and all my bearings are spot on. And I really knew what I was doing. And my friend who was with me said she'd never felt as safe in the mountains as she did when she was with me that day. And the email ended with you know, thank you for unleashing this newfound independence and confidence. And that's, that's, you know, that was just amazing to hear that. That's what I'm trying to give people. In one sense, I'm trying to work my way out of a job, you know, I'm trying to educate people in in mountain skills so that they don't need somebody to bring them out of the gate do run guided trips for people who don't want that end of it. They just they want me to take care of it. Certainly when I was a solicitor, sometimes it would be the same. Clients would say, Yeah, no, I don't want I don't want to hear anybody anything about all of this, you just tell me where I need to sign you look out for that I have hired you. And some people want that and hillwalking you know, you bring me up the mountains, and I'll just admire the scenery. But other people want to have the the, I suppose if you like, be the driver, be behind the steering wheel, have that sort of experiential and have it translates into life skills, you know, if, if people feel Hey, I was able to navigate through the fog up in the mountain, and I was able to make a plan over the map things out. And, you know, find my way points and find my takeoff features and, and know where I was and, or not know who I was, but find myself up there and then come out of at the far side and be okay. Maybe that translates in a very kind of philosophical sense into life that people can say, you know, can I use some of those skills that I've learned to navigate the fog in my mind, or the fog in my career, or the fog in my, you know, my life satisfaction here I am commuting into work two hours a day or whatever it is, you know, I'm in a in I'm stuck in this traffic jam, there's a fog kind of over my life, how can I How can I navigate my way out of this? And I think it does give people you know, a template, I suppose to navigate their way out of other problems that they might have in their life.
Yeah, obviously, we've all been sort of living under the cloud or the shadow of COVID-19 over the past year and a half. And you know, since lockdown due to COVID-19 a lot of new people are taking to the outdoors, you know, because it's sort of our only outlet or only, you know, opportunity for leisure and fresh air and because we can't go to the pubs and we can't go to restaurants and you know, share time with our friends in the way that we are used to. But I know that this has created problems of its own. With that with that whole idea of taking to the to the outdoors. What do you see as education playing in alleviating these situations these issues that occur with all of a sudden being outdoors.
I think the education has to be you know delivered carefully. And not in a sort of a finger wagging manner that you know you're not allowed to do this and you mustn't do that. You know pick up your litter tidy your bedroom kind of thing people don't like being talked to like that they feel like a little keeping being told to tighter their bedroom. I think it's better to instil in people a love of of the outdoors and low natural environment. I think we need to educate people before ever they go to the mountain stash. We go to these places because they are pristine and natural and we should leave them that way for for the next people. The the the outdoors is fragile and Precious and I think if you grow up in a concrete environment and a metal environment, you don't really quite know our tarmac environment, you don't quite know how delicate and fragile the natural environment is and how a small thing like throwing away a glass bottle or leaving your campfire, burning while you walk away. Or, you know, smouldering can have an enormous effect and enormous kind of domino effect. You know, it'll burn away, animals and birds it'll burn away, their food will burn away their nests, it'll burn them themselves. And it can take an awful long time for the outdoors to recover. So we do need to educate people to love the outdoors. If you love something you won't harm it
really wise advice and wise words. outside of your business, you also volunteer your time with Dublin and Wicklow mountain rescue. What kinds of incidents does your mountain rescue team deal with?
We deal with a lot of stuff. I was I was surprised at how much we deal with. I've been on the team for 10 years, and I've seen quite a lot of stuff in those 10 years, you know, the ones that people expect would be you know, a HillWalker gets lost in the cloud or fog or at night, when the darkness descends, we do get plenty of those we will deal with injuries. Our most common injury would be a lower leg injury and I can that can happen to anybody. You know, they they hike up the mountains and they just turn go over on their ankle and hear a snap. But we got a lot of other stuff as well, we'll get you know people maybe falling having a serious fall, we'll have people wondered when there's a lot of rain and rivers flood we can people can get into trouble there we have a we have a swift water rescue section in the team. We deal with a lot of suicides, if people choose to end their life at a cliff, will will be called in to deal with that or inquiry will be called in for that. We can also have rock climbing accidents from people that are stranded on the cliff and will sometimes be called in looking for say just missing missing persons or people suffering from dementia who wandered off and just a large number of people are needed to search for them. And we have a huge amount of search management experience. And I know the Gards are very grateful from we arrive at the Garai are our our tasking agency. So when we arrive to help them search, you know, 40 or 50, trained, qualified equipped, searchers arrive who know exactly what to do and know exactly how to search an area. And in particular the roof or the ground. The more dangerous the terrain, the more the Gards are delighted to hand over to us because we have the experience for that kind of terrain. So yeah, it's quite varied. We do a lot of stuff. Imagine rescue. It's great that you can pick up the phone and dial 112 and 40 or 50 trained people will drop everything and Come out, come out to your aid. So it is it is I mean, I'm obviously biassed, but it's it's a wonderful organisation. Any mountain rescue team. It's great, what people do.
You're out there training quite frequently, several times a week. Am I right?
Yeah, absolutely. There's a lot of training and and as I say there are a lot of disciplines within within the mathematics. So we mentioned the swiftwater. Team. We have Cliff rescue team, I'm the head of that we've got a dog search team. We've got search management, we've searched drones, so you know different people who kind of gravitate towards an area and become sort of like the experts in that area. So I don't know anything about flying drones, but I know a lot about Cliff rescue kind of thing. And then within that we'll we'll do our medical training. everybody on the team has has to have some form of medical training because we you know, if we find a person and they're injured, we need to be able to do deal with them. So our minimum on the team is emergency first responder, but a load of us have become EMTs emergency medical technicians and then also on a team we will have advanced paramed paramedics that advanced paramedics and doctors. So we have a huge amount of medical expertise. And then we have just search training and general hillwalking trainings that we have to be fit and able to go out to look after people because we don't we don't know when the call is going to come and we don't know what it's going to be.
And these are all these are all people who donate their Time volunteer at this is voluntary organised organisations. Is that correct?
Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. There are nobody, we're all on the same pay scale. in mountain rescue everybody gets paid exactly the same. There are no there are no kind of jobs if you like, in mountain rescue. Nobody's nobody's paid.
Yeah. And just going back to some of the things, the rescues and things that you've done, do you think that people you know, cause their own misfortune through lack of knowledge or preparation?
Sometimes, I mean, anybody can be unlucky. I mean, anyone can come go over on their ankle and hear a snap, for sure, if people people get lost, or if people are in the wrong gear, if they've bitten off more than they can chew. And I think sometimes people do that. I often, I often say that mountains are like, lobster pots, that people you know, find their way in quite easily to mountains, but then turn around and realise they can't find their way out quite as easily. And you know, you don't you park your car, you don't intend to go to the summit, but you walk along for a bit. And that's really nice. You go a little bit further, and like, hey, let's go a little bit more look over that over there. And then hey, we're heading we're nearly at the summer, let's let's go hit the summer, maybe you haven't been paying attention really, to where you're going? You get to so much. And that's great. And your group turns around to go back down to the car, and you find the people are, had tried to hit off in several different directions. And and everybody thinks their direction is the correct one. Maybe the cloud has come down at this stage, and the wind is picked up and it's sad to get it's certainly get wet and rainy. And suddenly, you know, you've gone from a lovely day to Oh, this is quite serious. We're on the top of a mountain. We're not we maybe we don't know what the name of the mountain is. Because we just said that looks nice over there. And we're not quite sure, which is the way down. You know, they haven't haven't done anything particularly wrong, but maybe a slight lack of preparation, or a slight lack of knowledge has turned their day kind of sour. And that, you know, that's not really anybody's fault. It's it's, again, I'm not into finger wagging. It's it's just you know, we I love the sense of adventure. I love the fact that people will say that, What's that over there? That's a mountaineering is, what's that I want to go up there, I can see it a way in the distance I want to go to it. And that's brilliant. But I think people underestimate the Irish mountains. Because they're not very high. People think Sure, that's fine. And they're all kind of rounded and stuff, but they're rounded from one direction. But if you go, if you walk along, you come to a glaciated Valley. And it can just be a huge, steep cliff that has no right to be there. And it's completely out of character with everything else that you experienced during your day. But you come along and the Glazier has taken a huge scoop out of the mountainside, and you arrive at the top of a huge cliff. And I think sometimes people get caught unawares by that kind of thing. They they feel yet Irish mountains are fine. There's no there's no danger. But if the Irish mountains can be quite difficult to navigate, we don't have footpads. We don't have signposts in the mountains, apart from a few lowland trails. And what we do have is really changeable, sometimes quite severe weather. So if you put those two things together, if you got a little bit lost, and then the weather really comes down, you won't be very long before your your your feeling. Hang on. I'm very cold, and its starting to get dark, and I don't know where I am. And maybe my mobile phone doesn't have coverage. I was too busy on Snapchat. I've ruined my battery. So I think sometimes, yeah, sometimes people possibly can can cause their own demise and that sense of the lack of preparation. So I guess, the message is, you know, think about what you're doing. Rather, like I said, on Errigal, all you know, is it still safe? Just keep on going? Can we still within our comfort zone? Is it kind of are we able to turn back then? Yes. Okay, let's keep going. And if not, what, okay, let's come back up another day. There's a great saying. The mountains in the mountains will always be there tomorrow. The trick is to make sure that you are as well.
That's a good, a very good point.
Absolutely. I think every day's a school day.
Exactly.
I think with lockdown, people have realised that things aren't particularly important. experiences are important and time is important and freedom to do things is important. And I'm sure that you know, work will change that a lot of mullaghmore people will work from home rather than commuting into an office and then realise Hang on, I have a lot more time in my hands. I can do a lot more things and just the idea of being able to go more than five kilometres away from your home. I think a lot of people are going to want to explore and go out there and learn how to do it. And that's great if that if that's one of the things that COVID gives us, then that's good.
Yes, but definitely, like you said earlier, do your due diligence and your preparation. And don't go out there willy nilly in short shorts and a T shirt and say, you know, I'm going to go do some hill climbing and not be prepared for what may happen. So I'm going to make sure that I link your Facebook page, as well as the link to your fy mountaineering page, to this podcast when it publishes, but if someone is interested in finding out more about courses or activities that they can do outdoors or preparing themselves, maybe to go out and do something new. What What would you say? Do you have a few suggestions for us?
I guess national governing bodies are a good way to go. You know, you pick your sport and on Google who's who's in charge either mountaineering, Ireland or canoe ireland or whoever it might be, they will have a lot of information about where to go. And maybe other people in the same boat as yourself who are looking for friends to go out with, they will have clubs, they will have courses, and they'll list out all the accredited providers. And clubs are a really good way to go. Because you will have people who can show you the ropes and people who are also new like yourself, and it kind of in the same boat. There are so many different ways to go. I think I think that the most important thing is just get out and do it. You know, if there's something you want to do, oh, I can never do that. It looks great. But I can never do it. Give it a go. Give it a go go find out somebody who can show you how to do and go to.
Well, Cormac, thank you so much for spending this time with me today. Just the rich and insightful nuggets of wisdom that you've given us for, you know, learning and preparing and kind of reaching out for your own adventures and readying yourself for that. It's been a really wonderful experience to talk to you and, and I thank you.
Thanks so much. Thanks so much for having me on today. It's been a pleasure.
I hope that you've enjoyed this discussion on a dash of salt, a space where you'll always find fresh and current discussions on society and learning today. Season with just the right touch of experts and education and a dash of sociological imagination. Please be sure to like and share this episode. And don't forget to subscribe to a dash of salt on pod bean so that you don't miss the next episode. Thanks so much and we'll chat again soon.