neon one makes software solutions specifically built for nonprofits. You can finally have your donor management fundraising software, program management and nonprofit operations all in one place. Learn how neon one can help your nonprofit create long lasting relationships by visiting Mian one.com backslash We Are For Good. Hey, I'm John. And I'm Becky.
And this is the We Are For Good podcast.
Nonprofits are faced with more challenges to accomplish their missions and the growing pressure to do more, raise more and be more for the causes that improve our world.
We're here to learn with you from some of the best in the industry, bringing the most innovative ideas, inspirational stories, all to create an impact uprising.
So welcome to the good community. We're nonprofit professionals, philanthropist, world changers and rabid fans who are striving to bring a little more goodness into the world.
So let's get started. Becky, what's happening?
Oh, my gosh, so excited for this conversation. If you are here today, pat yourself on the back because you're about to get a peek behind the curtain of what is actually happening on the forefront of our sector right now. And you are going to be in the know my friend.
Yep. And if you have not heard about it yet, you're about to hear about it. Because about to be everywhere. The generosity crisis is this incredible book that's coming out. We have the co authors on the podcast today. One is a repeat guest one is a new friend in the house. But let me tell you a little bit about these guys. We have Nathan Chapelle and Brian Crimmins with us, Nathan, you know him, he's been on the podcast. He's a thought leader, a public speaker, a writer. He's one of the world's foremost experts in the intersection between AI and philanthropy. He serves as the Senior VP of donor search, leading the research and development efforts dedicated to leveraging artificial intelligence to help nonprofits. I mean, he came in the house and talked about this before everybody was talking about it. And that's the same today with this conversation. Let me tell you a little bit about Brian, he is a great global leader in corporate purpose. He's the creator of 100, which is the world's first coalition of marketing agencies united for sustainable change. So really, this meeting of the minds today, these guys, you know, when you read a book, this is what always blows my mind, you have to think so far ahead. And it's like just to be a thought leader to write about what's happening in the moment is one level, but to be able to write about that to have the idea to have the brainpower to see the trends, that with enough time to go through the publishing process. It really blows my mind that the generosity crisis is coming out today, when so many of us are looking ahead and saying what's happening in our sector, and we're looking for hope we're looking for what is the right next step. And these guys have really put together a piece that I think is going to serve all of us today and at least point us in a really healthy direction. And so it is a huge honor to have you in our house today. Guys. Welcome to the podcast.
Thanks for having us.
Yeah, thanks for thanks for having us. It's always great spending time with you, Becky and John.
Well, it's good to see you. And we get to see Nathan in person since the last time we had this conversation on the podcast, which is really fun, too. But I want to give space just for you all to give a little bit of your context, a little bit of your story. What wired you to want to pour into this work, you know, now your book is on Fifth Avenue at Barnes and Noble, you know, on the front lines, leading these conversations what Bradshaw to this place today.
And Brian, I come to this from kind of different lenses too. But, you know, I spent 20 years in the trenches fundraising. So started out never intended to but started out kind of as that, you know, bright eyed, bushy tailed fundraiser back in 2000. And, you know, and I guess I, you know, throughout my career, you know, as I kind of moved up the ladder, it was always, you know, this idea of like, you know, what are we doing that's innovative, what are we doing that we can, we can generate more revenue. And it was always just about this idea of like how to build a better mousetrap and, and later on in my career, we realized it was getting harder and harder. Like there's just as I like, no matter what we were doing, and trying to hire our way out of these, the situation of the shrinking pool of donors. We didn't even know that at the time, like, we didn't really know that we were this, this kind of macro view is going on that less people were giving. And at a certain point, we kind of figured it out. And we're like, what's, what's going on here, and it was really around 2010, when the giving pledge was signed, that we had this hypothesis of like, you know, one of two things is going to happen. It's either going to inspire more generosity, like never before since well, since Rockefeller and Carnegie really, you know, we're, we're out there and Becky are a whole series on the history of philanthropy was awesome. To people need to listen to that if they want to when they want to hear about about that. But since that time, there hadn't been as much media attention around giving in. So all of a sudden, you know, the giving pledge against sign, there's a lot of excitement. But you know, at that point, I think in 2012, I did a study on the evolution of mega gifts. And it was this analysis of, you know, well, what what's actually going to happen? Is it going to inspire more philanthropy or it's going to fill essentially a leaky bucket and what we now commonly know as you know, the crowding out effect. And so, Brian and I met gosh, years ago I'm working on a fundraising project, pretty large scale fundraising project. And it was kind of love at first sight, you know, we started talking about, like, you guys like love at first sight, like, every time I come in New York or like, you know, let's get a drink. And then we would sit there for like hours and talk about, you know, what's going on in our industry? And why aren't people talking about these things? And so, I mean, jokingly, probably for a few years were like, Yeah, someone needs to write about this, like, what's going on, it's getting harder for nonprofits, or, you know, most people don't even you know, it wasn't in vogue at all to talk about this decrease in donors, up until recently. And so, I mean, even for a while, we tried to get other people to write the book, because I don't, I can't speak for Brian because we for him, so I never really viewed myself as a writer. I mean, it was sheer out of this, like, almost burden of like, someone needs to do this. And we tried to encourage other people to do it, and no one stepped up. So we kind of decided about a year and a half ago to jump in, and, you know, work work through things. And Brian can talk more about his experience, but we see things very differently. Brian has a extremely macro view of, of the world and, and the changing definition of philanthropy through and he works a lot of big corporations, and I'm more boots on the ground of the traditional nonprofit that, you know, I was in the seat for so long. And so that balance between like, you know, the struggle of the everyday nonprofit, but then also, you know, from a consumer side of like, how they're viewing philanthropy, so things are changing. And, and we think it all came together pretty well in the book.
And that was a great tee up. And Becky and John, thanks for having me as the new kid in this conversation here. As you mentioned, I'm the head of 100, but also have been, I saw the vision for 100 as working at changing our world where I've been the CEO for last 12 or 13 years. But I started there as an intern and what I joined changing our world, I was right away struck by the fact that we worked on both or a lot of IO sides of the social impact aisle, meaning helping nonprofits helping corporations, foundations, and that whole, almost 360 view of things. I just was always fascinated by it, I was always trying to constantly learn and read and understand what was happening. And then as Nathan said, you meet, you get the opportunity to meet somebody like Nathan and he called it going out for a drink. And you know, spending a few hours I called it a front row seat to a masterclass of really learning from somebody who is like one of the smartest people I've met in our sector. And, you know, as he said, but a year and a half ago, we just started cranking, you know, once a week for an hour, an hour and a half every just hammering away. And in fact, you said at the beginning and I would argue and Nathan to be interesting. But you know, the book I thought we were writing, when we first sat down was not where we ended up in a good way. I think I think once we established what the crisis was, we quickly were thinking about ways out of this. And so although the title is one thing, it's really a book of serious hope and positivity. And I hope people will pick that up from when they get a chance to read it as well.
Well, it's an extraordinary book, but even beyond the book, it's an extraordinary concept. And what's looming on the horizon, I think the way that we can view it in the way that react with the way that we react to what's on the horizon is going to really project the future that we're going to live in. And I want to thank you both for taking the time to write it. I mean, John, it sounds like us we were looking for we're for good type of community forever. And we you just sometimes at the build the dang thing. So I want to tee you up to talk about this generosity crisis, because we're seeing it on the back end on our site as well. And it this is a competition for connection. And you talk about that. And we're talking about not just how to thrive. But friends, we're talking about survival here. And there are ways not to just survive, but thrive. And it because the general the generosity market is in decline. But we think that there are very intentional and hopeful to your point, Brian ways of getting into this moment. And and we want you to talk about the moment for a second. And I'm gonna pitch this to you, Brian, first, talk about the current state of philanthropy in America as we're starting to dive into the generosity crisis. Where are we today? Really looking at it, you know, in the fall of 2022? Yeah,
thanks, Becky. Well, needless to say, we're living in a period of time right now, with with inflation at the highest point, it's been in 3940 years. And if you look back at the last time, we were in a situation like this, it didn't spell well for philanthropy, meaning it was a 9% drop from 72 to 75. When we were in a verse, quote, unquote, similar situation and we're on the heels today have, as you said, of the last 12 years or so of the generosity market to giving the traditional giving to nonprofits, already under stress, and already it will you know, align downward and it really you can draw a line in the sand from the oh eight financial crisis, where people will we said internally at changing our world we had people had a depression airy mindset of a recessionary period. We came so fast and so deep, when people lose 40 and 50 60% of the net worth in a month You take us, something happens to you psychologically, and I'm a big believer in that. Put that started, people reevaluating, and it has not gotten any better. And so here we are today with now other economic environments, not helping our case. But that's where we are. But um, you know, that's okay. And that's the reality. And I think part of the challenge any challenge personal or professional, as Nathan was saying, row is first admitting we have one. And now let's get on with the conversation of how do we see our way out of this.
I mean, I love that you kind of set the tone. And you at the beginning said, this book is about hope, I felt that, you know, I've not gotten to read the whole thing, but it's kind of working through different aspects of it. And like, I do see hope. And I think that's the posture we all have to have at this point. Because just going down the cycle of this looming, black cloud that's headed toward us is not helping anybody. So I wonder if you could talk about, you know, how can we really change course, and bring about a different, more connected future, like, Let's lean into this moment and use connection to like, kind of bridge to this next step.
So Arthur Brooks, which were just so honored, we actually approached him about the concept of this book, and he right away, just emailed Brian back and was like, Sure, I'll write a testimony on it was kind of excited, because he, he started talking about this idea, the change in giving behaviors about, you know, 20 years ago, he wrote a book called, who really cares, and when a lot more people are giving than they are now and this is kind of a follow up to that book. But really, his his more modern day work that he he publishes with the Atlantic is really around love. And it's really around this idea of people connecting with people. And, and there is a thing that he put in the New York Times that, you know, the United States is facing a crisis of love. And, you know, the good sweet part of that, you know, when we're going to talk about connection is that, you know, the definition of philanthropy is for the love of mankind has nothing to do with money, it has to do with, you know, bringing people together to do things that neither could do on their own. And, and so when we think about this from from, of course, we need to bring awareness to this idea that less people are engaging in why and then get into that and try to write some of that. But the end of the day, what we propose in the book is what nonprofits already know, it's what they've known forever. And for somehow, over the years, and you talked about this in so many of your podcasts, because I I'm a rabid fan, and is that the pendulum has swung so much, you know, to the side of, you know, automation and technology at any, you know, to just reduce friction, and to automate. And, and as someone who works in technology, I mean, technology can be a powerful, you know, conduit to helping foster connection. But too often, in probably for too long, it's been used to just streamline things and to replace the relationship to gain revenue. And so really, this idea that our book is a book of hope, it really is, it's this idea that we had to come up with a new word for connection, it's no longer about affiliation, or association, or connection, we had to come up with a new term that was just, like, got us back to the roots. And we call it radical connection, because it can't be the type of connection where I know you, or you know, me, we have to go back to the what nonprofits have always done, which is really close community of people that know each other. And so we provide a framework in the book, we really, this is probably the most fun, at least for me part when we were writing the book is we have this brainstorming session of like, what does that even mean? Like, what does radical connection mean compared to just like things that like, I buy from a store, versus I talk about this brand to all of my friends, like Patagonia is a great example, which we talked about in the book. So we built out this really great framework to really hopefully challenge nonprofit professionals, and actually, anyone that cares about connection to think about, like, you know, the fact that my connection is a limited quantity, like I can't have a radical connection with everyone I meet, I'd be very selective, it's probably my most valuable commodity as a human. So I need to think about where I invest that the energy and the time and in the ways that it's going to make the biggest impact or that's going to make me feel good. And so on. So it really goes from both sides, the nonprofit side and the donor side of rethinking what people take for granted now, which is just we're living in this world and we just succumb to all the messaging and messages that we get all day long every day to let's be intentional about who we're connecting with. And let's go in deep together.
Wow, I mean, so many thoughts about that Nathan, because we've seen that play out in so many ways, not just within our community but the many movements that are rising online and I I just got to give you guys like a huge attaboy for saying this for calling this out for even talking about the mindset work and the psychology because we're Brian, you're exactly right, we have to get out of that poverty mentality. Because this is not just about, you know, we say community is everything. It's our final core value of our company. But you're right, there is a difference between a donor and a believer. And we believe believers are so much more powerful. And these are radical connections that we think you already have within your missions, because believers are going to show up in different ways donors are going to give and we need them and we need those gifts. But believers are going to give Plus, they're going to open network Plus, they're going to fundraise. Plus, they're going to tell story plus, plus plus. And so you think about a believer in a compounding effect. And you pair that with this radical connection. And I think the difference that we're seeing, and I would love to get your feedback on this, is that there's so much authenticity, and there's so much trust and a radical connection, people are willing to do more, they're willing to go further, they're willing to really put themselves out there. And I think that that is the great Harbinger that's going to unlock this potential that sitting before us and really fight back against this decline that we see. I mean, that was a shocking stat that 75% of Americans gave, you know, in 2006, and now we're at 49.6. They're giving less, and we're connected more, it's just absolutely confounding.
Yeah. So you know, there, you talked about the putting yourself out there. So in the book, I put myself out there a bit to talk about. I'm a massive, massive fan of Pearl Jam, that band
album is one of my favorites, Brian, we can geek out about this later and
weave it into every record.
But you know what, I've been talking to friends of mine about the book, I use that as the jumping off point to describe what we mean by radical connection, because they go Oh, yeah, you know, obsessed might be another word. But, but what they do, and they put out, you know, as you said about a believer, as I'm there, I'm there before even comes out, right. And if they are doing and they do a fair amount of fundraising for something, I'm, I'm there, there's a community like you were talking about earlier. And so one thing we talked about in the book as well. And then we I hope this comes out of a good play. It's not a, you know, they're the enemy. But corporations and brands have have been for a long time now very, very skilled at knowing us. And helping us to know them to Nathan's point earlier about the two way street. Patagonia, we've referenced a few different times, but they're not the only ones. You think of the Ben and Jerry's. I mean, there's some wonderful examples, some of which we've touched on in the book. And they know, though they know, you know, the buttons to push. And I mean that in a very, hopefully authentic and meaningful way they know how to have us, you know, stand up and spread the word and be influencers on behalf of their, their brand. Now, hopefully, they're doing some really good work in society as well. But when you factor that in, Becky, to your point about the comment you made, which is so spot on, which is we're more connected than ever, but somehow this sort of less connected to, to nonprofit community. That's okay, as part of like admitting what's happening here. I mean, we're, there's a confluence of activity, I just gave a speech last week. And in preparing for it, I realized in doing some research that we now as human beings have the attention span, that equates to 8.25 seconds. And it's actually
second, believe it,
it's four seconds less. Well, it's funny, you should say that we're actually we actually are now behind goldfish we have longer. 10 years ago, it was four seconds longer. So my point is, it's also going to so when you you understand we're just not paying attention as much anymore. We're getting bombarded by information. We have the nonprofit, the hope is that once nonprofits understand this, and actually start, you know, Nathan loves to say no more is not more, less is more, you know, making sure we're making sure we're building that believer community. I'm actually pumped about what's going to happen the reignite moment of this, we just have to be aware of what's happening and operates a little differently.
Okay, I'm so glad you went there, because I think that's a part of your book that really jumped off the page to me, because I hate to use the word existential. But I love that this term, like when I was reading this, I was like, you're really Shep painting a picture that when the corporate side is getting so good at playing our own deck back to us, playing the values, having storytelling, knowing creating belonging, the things that we should be putting Central and how we show up, there really is an existential threat to our mission, because people feel like they're being altruistic by supporting that, like they don't think about the difference or maybe understand how the impact would be different. And so there's like this conundrum there. And it does feel like the right time to and you said this, Brian, we don't want to like push that away. We need to like step into that. And so I want y'all to have a chance to reflect on that. I think it's such a powerful thing that you're lifting,
I think being in the nonprofit sector for 20 years, I kind of grew up in this idea that that more was better, you know, and that it was just about continuing to fill, you know, fill the pipeline fill the pipeline, and almost at any cost and, and that cost was the relationships really, you get to a point where you can't, you can't foster authentic relationships with endless number of people. And so this idea, you know, we know this intuitively, this is what what needs to be a just a giant wake up call in our industry, we know this intuitively that a single donor, you know, has, you know, a lifetime value of about $131, or whatever it is, but a lifetime, we're looking at lifetime value of a better donor that stays with you that you are able to foster that relationship, that it's it's like 15 to 16 times that. We know this, we know this to be true. Like, you know, in direct response world, they absolutely was one of their key metrics. But for some reason, we haven't been able to get away from this idea of just trying to hit a certain revenue goal at any cost. And we essentially tried to mold donors into our calendars and into our, you know, kind of framework. And so, you know, this whole idea, you know, of this book, and a brown radical connection is again, it's getting to know people more intimately. And, you know, having worked at a, I worked at a cancer hospitals, you know, that was 100 year old tuberculosis hospital that essentially put itself out of business, which is the goal of every nonprofit, either way, right. And so they did, so there's tremendous pride that they fulfill their mission, and they reinvented themselves, and they hope to reinvent themselves and again, when cancer is cured. And so this, this idea that we talked about this and share some stories in the book, and some fictional characters, but based on you know, real stories from the past, City of Hope used to be a place where community would gather, and they'd come together. And like, we literally have donors that met each other in high school, because that's where they volunteered, and there was a dance and they met each other and got married, and they pass that legacy on to their kids, and, and so on. So all of this that we're talking about is so inherent to to, to nonprofits, they know how to do this. They just don't, they, they've kind of bought this idea that more is better, and they have to step away and realize that you know, more is not better, better is better, that they need to dive in deep and get to know their constituents in a more intimate level. And to Brian's point, there's a lot of tips to take from the for profit community, on getting to know people using technology to essentially drive that personalization at scale. Because the technology does exist that allows you to foster that connection. But we we tend to live in a very bifurcated way. And in fundraising, it's either all or nothing.
And Jon building off that the the ultimate Aha, as we were writing, the book was coming down the homestretch of the book, the Edelman Trust Barometer came out. And companies were more trusted than nonprofits now, they sort of took the moral high ground, you know, through their messaging and their, their, their, that shared values orientation, because they know they're believers to use your word back, they know how to radically connect with those that they know will be with them. And so once they've done that, they are really good establishing that shared values where you think you can't live without them. Again, that's another subject for another day. But I was talking to somebody inside of my parent company, Omnicom the other day, and I was talking about this very topic. And he very naturally almost scarily having been in the nonprofit business for as long as I have said, I mean, I would trust corporates over nonprofits any day of the week. And wow, I mean, talk about a wake up call. Now, the point I want to make, because that is a topic in and of itself. But John, where you went originally, I am a massive believer in because I see it every day with our teams. When not for profits, brands, companies work with nonprofits in a very authentic partnership. Wow, one plus one equals not three, five. And that's the message I want people understand corporates have a lot of good that they can bring. And they some of them are bringing. But they don't know everything. And they don't know, you know, on the ground, the last mile feeding or they don't know that and nor if they if it was worth knowing they'd be in the business of doing so right. Nonprofits are in our society for a reason. And they need to respect one another and work together because when they do wow, I actually think it's part and parcel of one of the ways out of the generosity crisis.
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Gotta jump in here real quick because I want to live something that John wrote is just this fantastic thought leadership piece this week that really ties in to this component. And it will be the hill that I go to die on. Right now as I want to talk to nonprofits right now, the way to combat this, the way to lean into this moment is one, you have to stop being the best kept secret, this is not a compliment any longer. You need to boldly step out, talk about who you are your values tether your story, your staff, your humanity back to those values, the way that we tell our stories has got to be incredibly vulnerable, and human. Because when we show our flaws, the people that are on the other end, whether that's a believer, a lurker, somebody who's just keeping an eye on us, there's Oh, that's not that's not a mission, that's a human back there. And we're working with the human one to one, and it's going to take us stepping into the discomfort. And we're also seeing this trend as well. And I love that you guys have brought it up that giving is identity, you know, and people want to be connected to that. And they also want to have accountability to their mission. And I think the trust piece is something that we're going to have to dive into on this podcast of understanding why our donors are believers are not trusting us. And so and also Nathan, thanks for raising City of Hope we just love that mission or say hi to Sarah and John there in our community. And it's just such a great nonprofit. And I think the reimagining who you are is a growth mindset sort of skill that we may have come for this, but if the world's evolved, how are we evolving? How are we evolving our messaging? How are we evolving PARP partnerships? And so, I mean, Brian, I want to ask you this question. And I kind of teased it a little bit before the talk to us about giving in times of crises. We're hearing this a lot in our community right now people are seeing the economic downturn coming. You talked about inflation. We don't want to revisit of oh, wait, in terms of what it does to the sector. Talk to us about how nonprofits can be prepared and what you're seeing with giving in times of crises and Nathan jump in here to if you some date on it.
Well, you know, great, great, very timely, obviously, unfortunately, so but timely question. I think we're you were were a few minutes ago, Becky's spot on I mean, I think you got to look at me, every nonprofit should make sure that they're putting their stories out there putting the personality, the humility, the vulnerability, all those points, I would absolutely check. Yes, absolutely. I was not an emphaticly as you were going through them. I think the thing that we saw even during the early days of COVID is do not take for granted. If you're a nonprofit, what your lurkers donors or believers know about you get out, get out, make sure they know what you want them to know about you. And And again, this is where that shared value thing becomes really interesting. If you know that they're very interested in a certain aspect. Make sure you're telling them how you're evolving that what or in the last six months how that has become even more critical to your mission. Don't assume they know back to that eight seconds of being able to retain information attention span. And then the last thing I'd say is is if you had the time it doesn't take a lot of time. I'm a massive believer in reaching out to them reaching out to everybody meaning do surveys like what don't you know about them? Because it's amazing what people will
tell you engage? Yes, yeah. So
I I guess I should have said that you said it better than I engage in absolute nap in times of crisis run to the problem. Don't run away from it run to people engage left, more is more in that sense. Go talk, explain. Figure. I mean, I love In the early days of COVID, how many people were doing fireside chats with the heads of the organizations and they were talking to more people than they've ever spoken to, even when they would go on rubber chicken dinner tours or do anything like, like, don't lose that those good things we learned about how to do during COVID in a time like this as well,
you know, from a data perspective, I would say, the financial crisis or you know, this inflationary period, whatever we're calling it comes at a really bad time. Right. So, I mean, after the pandemic, and of course, it related, but there was so much resilience that people learned about through the pandemic, in terms of getting creative. And we saw, you know, some winners and losers in that, you know, throughout that time, the winner is really figured out. I mean, not, we're so tired of the word pivot. But one of the best examples we saw it for like, I mean, a Catholic church, they just were not ready to bring people in and do video streaming, and all this stuff, had priests just go out and meet with people, like some of the best stories that we saw a building community were completely unconventional and almost, you know, hundreds of years old ideas, like just go out in the streets and meet with people in authentic ways. And for the organizations that I've either worked with, or consulted with, that did well, they got creative, right? They they got creative. Now, this crisis is a little bit different, because financial crises, you know, we're already seeing retention drop massively. So like, we're, you know, those one time donors are paying for gas, and they're paying for, you know, food and all those other things that we we see we feel every day, it's going to be a really challenging time, I think you have to invest in the long haul, you know, we know this, when I worked at UC San Diego, I did a study, the 25 largest gifts of any year, those people had been with us for 18 years, there'll be with you throughout this, there will be another season, invest in the relationship now. And it will pay off later. But you have to get away from short term thinking, and really, really adopt this idea that you're building the framework or building the pipeline of the future, those people will stay with you they every single time they will stay with you. And especially if you're with them during the time of crisis, if you come alongside and you're empathetic, you really prove that when you told them that was about partnership, not about money, that that will be tested. And and the time that you prove that is through those challenging times when they're nervous, and they don't have as much money and you know, they they, they will remember that you are with them walking with them ARM and ARM throughout that period. So this is a long game like this, like we have to get away from these annual goals. You know, and it's hard, right? Because you got to, you know, keep the lights on. But you've got to be thinking about this, you know, from a much more sustainable way, I would say the reason why we're in a crisis to begin with is because we've treated philanthropy as a transaction, we've treated donors like ATMs. And you know, this is the time actually that will prove those that know how to do this, well, we'll walk across this much better on the other side, and they're gonna be so much better off,
can you just feel less fist bump, and over here, I mean, preach, fellas, this is so good, and aligns with just the values that we really started, we're for good to have these kinds of conversations. So it just feels really like this moment is ripe for this. So I just, you know, everything you've said, how do we start to like socialize this because we're there with you and thought partners, like we got to play the long game, we got to pour into belonging, we got to figure out connection, also at scale, like, you know, to figure out how to do that and have a radical connection at scale. But talk to me about how you bring a leader along with this, because they do have annual goals, and they may have limited thinking of like they're just trying to make meet payroll in the next few months. How do you kind of champion that? How do you talk about it with leaders?
I'll only give two things. And Brian will have some other ideas as well. You know, for me, it starts with awareness. I mean, there's too many leaders that are afraid of this conversation. And honestly, like, have decided to avoid it at all costs. It's just they won't admit that they that things are getting harder. And you know, any, any business that has the negative trajectory of 16%, over 20 years. We modeled this out the horrifying statistic when we model this out is like giving ends in 49 years, if nothing changes. So avoiding this country. It's horrifying, like any business that looks at a negative trajectory. If it goes indefinitely, without any intervention will not end well. Our industry is not healthy. Our leaders need to realize that they need to embrace that need to be willing to talk about it and brainstorm and come together. That's what's unique about the nonprofit sector. 20 years ago, when I got to the nonprofit sector, I had no idea how unique it was that I could go to anyone and they would be a friend and a colleague and a mentor and we could learn together even when we were quote unquote competitors. So I think awareness is number one people need to be willing to talk about it and just spark conversation was generosity mean, you know, to them and to their community. And then to I mean, from a more practical tactical side, you know, there has to be conversation about what sustainable philanthropy means. Because hitting annual goals and putting donors into our calendars is not donor centric. It's not in their best interest. But when we and we talked about this, we talked about, like the levers of retention, you know, as being really the motivation of success for a gift officer. I mean, it's just it, we all know this, I'm just preaching to the choir, but those leaders have to fight for this, those leaders that report to a hospital CEO, or they report to a dean or a chancellor of a university, they have to fight for this. They, they they have to change the the paradigm of how they're measured how success is measured, and focus on building, you know, building a pipeline, that that's going to stay with you for a longer period of time.
Yeah. And I'll just quickly add one thing, which is what actually two things one is thank you for because when you said I mean, thank you for helping us get spark continue to spark the conversation and everything we can the sector can continue to do to raise what Nathan said that awareness, I think that's half the battle, the group that I feel like, we have to figure out how this conversation gets to them is the board members of nonprofits, because ultimately, there's two things I think about when I think about board members. One is not all of them, but many of them are in that world that the business world that Nathan referred to, if this was happening to their business, they wouldn't be sitting back. That's number one. Number two, they're the ones let's be honest, who can give the air cover for changing the rules and changing the like to the development team. So if this conversation, and I don't think it's going to if it stays just in the development side, the development aspect of nonprofits will make progress. If we can get it out. Beyond that, I think we'll make real real progress. And that's not a knock on development professionals, people I've worked with for 20 years, we need the board, we need leaders to understand what's happening in our sector the most, if it's the if it's a certain type of board, they have the fiduciary responsibility anyway, they need to provide the air cover the rethinking the roadmap to give their CEOs, their leadership and development teams the room, they need to start doing things differently.
You are so right, thank you for boldly stepping out there and saying it because we're seeing this evolution from management, to leadership happen. And nonprofit leaders are having to make a choice at this fork in the road. Am I going to operate business as usual? Are we going to look at this as not only leading people in missions differently? And you're exactly right, Brian, we have to start, uh, specifically leaders, if you're listening right now, making the business case for why we need to be moving and evolving in this way to our board. You know, I know there are bean counters on there. And we love them. We love our bean counters. But we have to talk about the data and the data of where it's moving and how we're going to affect change. And I think that this is a big conversation that's not had just in the C suite. This is something that's going to have to involve not only talking to our people on the front lines, and I'm talking about service providers and program managers and people that are actually interfacing, it's about talking to your donors. And I think what you said about engagement in times of crises, heck, we need to be engaging all the time, that needs to be our Mo every single day, talking, asking questions, serving polling, gathering story, everything is going to inform our next move. I'm here for this evolution, because every time you put one of those touch points out, that radical connection that you guys are talking about, is further cemented. And so I want to move to talking about that radical connection, because we were so geeked out to see this in your book, because we see this as one of the great underpinnings of success moving into 2023. So talk to us about the case for nonprofits to establish these radical connections with their constituents, and how can we start building stronger relationships? Nathan, I'm gonna start with you.
You know, not surprisingly, I'll start from the data perspective. You know, we started quantifying connection using machine learning years ago, in 2017, actually, is crazy. It's been five years. And I will say that we know more about the motivations of giving, you know, when we're talking about all the things that are going wrong, you know, in our industry right now, we know more about the motivations of giving than we've ever known in history. And so we get down to the 10th decimal point in 1000 variables of like, why really, why are people connected to us? And I had this idea one day and I, I was like 5am and I, our data team always knows it's going to be interesting day at 5am. When I'm texting them. I'm like, I have an idea. But I never thought about this really until not long ago where I thought well If we're quantifying connection of donors using machine learning, not using their wealth, but just really like based on, you know, them being engaged, those people will stay with us for a longer period of time, like, essentially, the people that we're predicting, that are going to give again, or make a first gift, if it's based on connection are going to be the better donors. And as it turns out, so we do this full huge analysis on five and a half billion dollars in transactions, and we're doing 30 million predictions a month now. I mean, it's just like crazy. And, as it turns out, people that are aren't quantified are measured based on their connection, retain at 70%. And in the in the top half of our file in the top quartile were filed a return of 81%. So it's a fun, it's literally you've I think Becky said this on a podcast the other day, and I love the term, it's like we flipped the pyramid, right? So we're not just trying to fill this like leaky bucket down at the bottom and be like, just, you know, one time gifts at any cost. Like, wow, if we could measure which we can, people that have a more visceral connection with you that more radical connection, if you could actually quantify that everyone is better off, the donors are better off and you're better off the lifetime value is 15 to 16 times higher. And so, you know, that's, that's from a data perspective. So I mean, that it exists, we live in an era where you can actually know the value of your database is not in how much it's worth, from a wealth perspective, that it's that really says nothing about the value of data. So the value of your database is on the depth of connection and measuring the depth of connection. And so that's a fundamental shift for our industry, it is literally flipping the pyramid. And I'm guilty of this in years past, I mean, I'd have a prospect development person say, Oh, our database is the most valuable commodity of this organization, it's worth $6 billion dollars, I'd argue today, it's absolutely worth nothing, if you can't measure the depth of connection that's in your database. And so that's just a big fundamental shift, you know, for us to really embrace. And that's why corporations are so successful understanding what you and I, you know, each of us are going to do almost on a daily basis, and they're targeting us with precision based on that.
And how they have us all on subscriptions.
Yeah. Yeah, well, they can measure, measure what you're paying attention to. And they've gotten really good at it. But the good news is, nonprofits can do the same thing.
If you think next step, like what the data begins to show you, as he talked about, with some of my clients with whether we've had this level of analysis or not. I'd love it, when they say, Wow, it really begs the question, why do we do like this event, and these seven things, and they stopped, the light bulb starts going off and about what they have just been doing for, you know, 10 years, 15 years, or 20 years and kind of this rope, robotic kind of way of approaching engagement and whatever that might be. And that's a lot of fun, because you start realigning, you know, some of the efforts, even some of the dollars, I mean, just to be more effective and more efficient. Because you start that you're you realize that you're focusing on those that are your believers going back and you start and when you start to see those early returns, not only they're gonna stay with you, but they're really connected involvements, their interest is there. It goes a long way in you know, helping everybody get on board to the subtle or not so subtle change that's happening, but it I agree with Nathan, the data is the key. And we were asked on another podcast What if you don't have that I go back to what we were talking earlier, Rocky, then do a survey, you know, to fit up 12 years ago, we were working for major university. I did not know Nathan at the time, we literally did a survey of their entire alumni base simply asking questions about those themselves. And I'll give you an example. When we came in started breaking down the data, women 40 to 50 years of age who were like very, very low engagement very low given it was not rocket science to seeing the response. So they put the number two they wanted two things. I cared about them the most, whether it was their families and their wellness, their health. So we went to the university and said, with all due respect your 30 golf outings mainly geared at men, could you take one of them away and run a women's wellness forum and they did it for female alumni only it oversubscribed five times we found a way to put that university and in the importance of the day to day life of their alumni at different stages of their lives, not with a one blanket approach that worked for them. It's just one small example of what you can learn by data like Nathan talked about even just serving.
Yeah, getting to know your your donors individually. I will say in the book that we have, essentially the essential ingredients for that radical connection, things like authenticity and transparency and vulnerability. You know, truly coming alongside donors arm and arm. And then we also have a framework that we've talked about, you know, essentially if I was in a nonprofit today, this framework for how do you what what is the varying degree of connection that someone has from they know you to the fact that they brag about you, and if you can measure that through a survey it, we have a whole framework in the book for this at any nonprofit could essentially take. And if you knew that if you knew where people stood on their degree of connection to you, not anything to do with our money, oh my gosh, like there's, there's the road to success. I mean, really, those are the people that are going to go the distance with you.
And I just think having this mindset where you're practicing flexing that data is going to take you to the next level. And Nathan, thank you for saying this for like 20 years, you've been beating this drum for 20 years that we don't as a sector, have a practice of looking at it, and even interpreting it and flexing it. That's what you take to your board. And it's not about how many followers you have on Facebook or tick tock. It's about how engaged they are, how much are they asking questions, and getting involved and taking your information in activating on it. So I think you guys are in on to all the things right here. Thank you for sharing that story. Brian, I'm not shocked at all that women's event was was as accessible as it is. And we just think that storytelling is such a heartbeat, not only of this moment. I mean, you talk about it in your books, I want to pitch this question to both of you. I want to know about a story of philanthropy that has really changed you and your life and stuck with you. It doesn't have to be the biggest gift. It doesn't have to be the shiniest gift. But want to start with you, Brian, what do you think?
Yeah, that's a great question. When I was I'm the youngest of nine kids. And so when I was I think something like seventh eighth grade, sixth, seventh eighth grade, my dad was at the time cheering where I went and where he went and St. John's University in New York City, their first ever capital campaign. So like, rewind the clock, I was 1011 12 years old sitting like having probably just eaten like pizza or whatever. And he's in the den, on a phone call. And I was picking up, he hangs up like to just ask somebody for money for money. And he was like, raising 50 million at St. Jude. And I look back. And I mean, I literally tell people, I had a front row seat to Capitol campaigning since I was like, you know, playing wiffle ball in the backyard, and I didn't even know it. And he was someone, he and my mom are so involved in on boards. And you know, there was nine of us. But somehow they drilled it into us that there's a much bigger society in a world outside of ourselves, even though there was a lot of us that we had to make sure we were, you know, being mindful of and helpful to but seeing him and then actually seeing him do it again, as I was going into St. John's myself, and I ended up putting my hand up to go into the development office. And so it's a very, very personal story that I had a front row seat to a capital campaign. And when I didn't even know what it was with my dad doing that. And it literally something on this chart, a path that I've been on for more than 20 years, but 23 or 22 years of changing the world.
Excellent. And incredible, I cannot even imagine So Nathan, what about you, sir? One that sticks out to you.
Gosh, there's always one that sticks out. I you know, I spent 20 years fundraising but I did my first fundraiser when I was eight years old, I ended up in the local newspaper, you know, for and so it's been a big part of our life. We grew up very poor, but we always gave back and we you know, from habitat to humanity, but we are always recipients of charity, we always get back. I will say when I started formally in nonprofit I was at the Boys and Girls Club and a local boys and girls club here had been around 50 years, kind of dilapidated building. There was a few weeks after I started, I was a board member and then agreed to step in kind of interim, you know, seven years later, he looked back, but I showed up one day and there was a kid sleeping on the porch is mom was a drug addict. He is a type one diabetic. He was an unbelievable scholar. In in his freshman year taking trigonometry in Japanese, and sleeping on the porch, he had nowhere to go, you know, in for me, man. I still like if you asked me what my sir had, like, go back to that moment where I showed up for work at like 7am. And there's this kid sleeping on the porch, the boys and girls though because there's no other place to go. The value that nonprofits, you know, the role that they play in everyday society, it's hard work is so much admiration. It's a noble profession, but man that it's real, like it's real. And so like you think about those moments, and you're like, man, to be a part of that in any way, is just so special.
And we don't want it to go away. You know, that's what I think about we got to hold on to that and make sure that they're there so that kids have a place to go. I mean, that's a great metaphor.
Nathan, I want to give you one chance, because I know we just talked a lot about believers in this conversation and you'll put this in the book. So I've got to just give you a chance to shout out our mutual love for find out project and I love just how you threaded that and talked about your family's involvement too. So just tell a little piece of that because I think that's a believer in action of just how you show up to support this
is work You know, I mean, it is probably the most pure example of radical connection that I can I can name like, I, it's hard at it, there's not a day goes by where I don't brag about what farmland the farmland project is doing. I mean, they've they've moved 85 million pounds of food since April 2020. From a bunch of college students that, frankly, were just fed up with a broken system, you know, they, they didn't take no for an answer. And if you could build a new nonprofit, without all the baggage, and you could focus on things like retention, and you could have a board that was aligned from day one, like, imagine what you could do, and that's what they're doing. I mean, and so it's just an amazing story. Brian's gotten to know them. I know you guys have gotten to know, I mean, those are the individuals that give me hope. Because they're doing it, they won't take no for an answer, and they're creative, you know. And then there's this aspect that they've only just begun, you know, so there is reason to hope, you know, there's reason that, you know, younger generations are taking their role in society seriously. And they're not going to be burdened down by like, what doesn't work and what, you know, what, what's been tried before and didn't work the first time. So I love it. They're an incredible group, family and project is, is, I think, example of what the next generation nonprofit looks like.
I agree. And I gotta throw one thing in there for FarmLink. Because if you are somebody who subscribes to this abundance mindset in this, in this concept of trying things differently, I think there has to be a level of radical resiliency. And FarmLink was rejected over by 200 farmers, before they actually got a farmer to say, Okay, we'll try this out. How many times have you been rejected as a fundraiser 200 times and you keep going back, I think you have to have that level of ridiculous resiliency. And now we just got an email yesterday, they're at 100 million pound of food. already. So proud of you, Aidan and Ben, way to go, guys, you know, we end all of our conversations around here with a one good thing I'm dying to know, in the scope of the macro level that we've been sitting in today, how do you bring it all the way down? And talk about one good thing that people could take away from this conversation today? Nathan, I'm gonna start with you.
I mean, you know, for me, I knew you're gonna ask this question. So I had time to reflect on it, you know, in for me, the one good thing is one good thing. You know, our for all, you know, the book for what it does is to drive some conversation and it the answer is very simple. It means showing up every day, and doing one good thing. And honestly, that can be paying for a meal, it could be pain, it could be talking to a stranger, it could be returning the shopping cart, something that makes this world a better place for us all to live in. And, you know, the paradox of generosity is the more you do that, the better you feel, the more you get back. And so that's just the encouragement is just one good thing. And then whatever that is to you. And then, you know, do it tomorrow and do it the next day and do it the next day. Because generosity is caught not taught. So if we all do this, you know, it can make a powerful impact. Awesome.
What about you, Brian?
Yeah, I wouldn't say the term I use a lot internally and change our world is just we have to be students of the industry. So I think in this conversation is a great example of how fast things are moving and how we need to make sure we're thinking about things the right way. So I went to the one good thing I would encourage everybody is to constantly, you know, as individuals, if they're development actors that working in a nonprofit, you know, constantly be pushing the envelope, just learning and keep keep the conversation going. I mean, keep challenging sort of the status quo within your not for profit of because as we talked about, so much can be learned from the data. And I agree with you, Becky, that our sector has struggled with getting their understanding of that and our homes around that. So just to be students be curious, keep pushing and keep working and your resiliency commonest spot on as well.
I mean, fellas, I feel the mutual just hope for the sector, but just so much value alignment in this conversation. I know our community is just going to really feel buoyed by this today. point us to where we can find the book. I mean, we were laughing beforehand, but literally if you're in New York, it is taking over the front of Barnes and Noble on Fifth Avenue to tell us all the ways you can get the book if you can't make it to Fifth Avenue and then how to connect with you as online where you show up and how to connect.
So a couple different ways we we have a website so you go to generosity crisis.com or Chappelle Crimmins, Chappelle dash crimmins.com Either way, it goes to the same place, general generosity. crisis.com is a little easy to remember. Of course, it's on Amazon and and we're just so honored because the outpouring of support from of the community, the corporate community and the nonprofit community, the whole CSR and the ESP community. It's like, it's just, I don't know, it just it's been overwhelming and humbling. So yeah, and then of course, I know Brian and I both are pretty active on LinkedIn. And so to find us on LinkedIn, we love connecting with people. And if we're in your area, we'll grab a cup of coffee and do one good thing together.
Well, I think the reaction is so strong to this book, because we're all so proud and grateful that you stood up and said it. If you're listening to this podcast, you are a different kind of thinker. You're a different kind of learner. We're looking to you to be those warriors that usher in this new era of innovation of data of radical connection. I absolutely think it can be done. This community is proof that it's possible. So lean into this, talk to your leaders, and just know we're rooting for you because there is not only hope, there is tremendous promise and success in this for radical transformation. Thank you guys so much.
You're awesome. We love you guys so much. Thank you for all the love that you pour into the world.
It's our joy. Thank you both rooting for you.
Yeah, thanks for having us.
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