"What Are Community Colleges For?" Why? Radio episode with guest Brian Huschle
2:35AM Jun 13, +0000
Speakers:
Announcer
Jack Russell Weinstein
Brian Huschle
Keywords:
students
institution
college
community college
university
northland
community
people
school
question
philosophy
year
campus
teach
north dakota
program
non native speakers
degree
success
curriculum
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The original episode can be found here: https://wp.me/p8pYQY-jnM
Why philosophical discussions about everyday life is produced by the Institute for philosophy and public life, a division of the University of North Dakota's college of arts and sciences. Visit us online at why radio show.org
Hi, I'm Jack Russel Weinstein host of why philosophical discussions about everyday life. On today's episode, we'll be asking Brian hussle what is community college for? Please visit why radio show.org For our archives show notes and to support the program. Click donate on the upper right hand corner to make your tax deductible donation through the University of North Dakota secure website. We exist solely on listener contributions.
When I was in graduate school, I used to fantasize about which university I would teach at pretty much every grad student does. I dropped out of Harvard and Princeton UC San Diego in the University of Colorado at Boulder. I imagined lots of time and money for my research and the best students. Like all of my classmates, I wanted to become a superstar. Then I graduated and faced a job market. That was so bad. I started fantasizing about where I didn't want to teach. Instead, I hoped I didn't get a job in the Texas panhandle or a terrifying neighborhood in Detroit. I prayed I wouldn't be expected to teach five courses per semester and eventually anxiously would have taken any job at all hit even then, I was still crossing my fingers that I didn't end up in a community college. We've all been taught that there is a hierarchy of schools and that educational institutions can be objectively ranked. We're sold on the idea that the prestige of the place we go to as either student or teacher is a measure of how good we ourselves are. Nothing is further from the truth. In almost all instances, university rankings are a scam. They don't tell you anything definitive about the people who work there. Some of the worst teachers I have met have been from the top colleges, some of the most unoriginal and cowardly research comes out of the most famous departments. The true purpose of college rankings is to get parents to pay twice as much for their kids education as they could or should. Nevertheless, it took the movie My Big Fat Greek Wedding, to see past the condescension that I inherited towards two year schools. The movie follows Tula a frumpy, 30 year old woman who has no social life works in her parents restaurant and is because she is unmarried, dismissed by her family. Eventually, she manipulates her dad into letting her go to school to study computers. In a wonderful but underplayed scene, she finds a workshop that teaches her how to take over her aunt's travel agency. She builds her own self confidence and gains the courage to sit with the pretty popular girls who ostracized her when she was a kid to eventually falls in love, which of course leads to a Big Fat Greek Wedding. But that's not important at the moment. What is relevant is that when to wanted to change her life, she didn't go to Yale or the best college in her city. She went to a community college, she took a single course and it made her life measurably better in every way. I love this movie, and I love that scene. And every time I see it, it reminds me of how narrowly defined the student population I teach is there mostly 18 to 21 years old students over 24 are referred to by the euphemism non traditional age. Most of mine are straight out of high school are in school full time have a parent or parents who pay their tuition are not the first students in their family to go to college and have to meet minimum academic standards. Few of them have children of their own. And while many have had their share of difficulties, there is a certain predictability about what my classes will look like each semester, we've plucked out a specific kind of student from all over the upper Midwest and deposited them onto our campus. The University of North Dakota serves a region but Northland Community and Technical College down the road serves a community. What puzzles me and the question that inspires this episode is why a school like mine automatically gets more respect than our local community college, I find strange the presumption that my students work harder and are more desirable. It is afterall, infinitely more difficult to enter a classroom a decade out of school or as a returning veteran or as a single parent than it is to trust the inertia from high school. I don't want to diminish my own students accomplishments, many of them work very hard and are seriously impressive. I'm really lucky to be where I am. But there is something equally, if not more remarkable, about getting a two year associate's degree during your second or third time at bat than there is about getting a BA by the time you're 22. I guess the point is that it's probably not a good idea to compare two and four year schools at all. one isn't better or worse, they just serve different populations in different purposes. We do need, however, to challenge the university hierarchy itself. There are no doubt bad schools but the real question students and parents should be asking is not whether someplace is the best, but whether it's one of the right ones for them. This involves rethinking how we define college who gets to be a student and questioning the purpose of learning. It necessitates asking whether education And then training are really two different things. If everyone needs a full liberal arts education, and how important colleges are for upward mobility, does our society have a moral obligation to offer everyone a second? Or even third chance? Should we build our institutions for the ideal student or modernize them for the complexity of today's world? How much learning needs to take place outside of the classroom? The list of questions could go on. Many of the students at Northland tech ended up going to UND after their two year degree, get the two campuses feel like different worlds. Is this really because the students have different abilities? Or is it actually that they're from different social and economic classes? Wouldn't it be unfortunate if the real reason we have community colleges is to reinforce an us versus them mentality, rather than discouraging it? This is why we have the Ivy League after all, to be able to point out who's on top. You can't identify winners without naming losers. Social division cuts a lot deeper than we'd like to admit.
And now our guest, Brian Hutchins, Vice President for Academic and Student Affairs at Northland Community and Technical College has two campuses in East Grand Forks and Thief River Falls, Minnesota. He received his PhD in Philosophy at the University of Nebraska Lincoln and spent 19 years in the classroom before moving into administration, Northland tech. Brian, thanks for joining us on why. Thank you. It's my pleasure. Share your favorite moments from the show and tag us on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook, our handle is always at why radio show you can always email us at ask why@umd.edu That's asked why@umd.edu And listen to our previous episodes for free, learn more and donate at y Radio show.org. So, Brian, our schools are right down the road from each other, but UND has a much stronger presence in the region. I think this is a very common experience for community colleges. Am I correct? In in having a sense that your school is more invisible in the community and taken for granted?
I'm going to say yes or no, I think you know there's dynamics there's the size of student body. So there's a presence that way. But when we think about the visibility, we have two campuses, we have a campus in East Grand Forks and a campus in Thief River Falls. And of course, East Grand Forks is, in some sense, a super sleeper community for Grand Forks and the community college there's a sleeper to the University of North Dakota. But when you go to Thief River Falls when you're in a small rural town, then that campus becomes very central to the community in a way that we're not in the Greater Grand Forks community. I don't think this is unique to two year colleges, though. I think if you were in a rural community, and you have a four year University, my alma mater, University of Minnesota, Morris would fit this description. The campus has a very strong presence in that community. And we can see that, you know, throughout public institutions in particular, but there are private universities in small towns as well where that presence is there. And so I think part of that sense is just, you know, different institutions within a single community. But I'm not even sure they're about that if you go to the you know, Twin Cities. There are something like nine, two year community and technical colleges, and one university and smattering of private universities, one public university, one public State University, and then a smattering of public schools. And so there's a people know where there are enrollments show that
so before we get into the sort of the cultural aspects, one of the great divides, may that's not the right way to put it. But one of the great controversies on many campuses, is that the administration sells the university as an economic engine as as part of the development of the community. Is this the same for the two year schools? Are they there in part to create jobs to to bring resources? Or are they do they hold a different place economically?
All higher ed holds that place. That's the short answer. Right, right. You know, the train of the technician level, the mechanics, all that, you know, architectural design and program, right? We're not training architects, but we're training the people who do the work for the architects, where, you know, in some sense, and so yeah, we're a part of that economic engine, but we are comprehensive to your school. So we offer an Associate of Arts which is the transfer degree and We're training general education, the first two years of a bachelor's that will transfer seamlessly within the state of Minnesota, the University of Minnesota University of North Dakota and all the North Dakota schools are very good. And so it's both.
I want to go back because you said something that was super intriguing. You said, we're not training architects, but we're training the people who do the work for the architects. What does that mean? And why is that distinction important?
So, you know, the when we have a architectural design program, for example, it's an associate of applied science. They're taking a minimum of 45 technical credits in architectural design, they are creating blueprints, they are creating floor plans for houses drawing the full blueprint for a house. As an example, they take a modeling class, they build a full model from scratch of a house so that they understand the intricacies of a beam or support beam in a rafter, do they, the architect has more advanced skills there would need I believe, to check off on that design that it's architecturally sound. But the students that we train are the ones that are at the drafting table. Of course, it's all done on computer aided software, but but the students we train are the ones doing the day to day work for that.
So already, we've seen two elements, this relationship between architects and the people who who do work for them, and what you call the sort of the seamless transfer degree. This suggests that rather than being discreet institutions, your institution and we'll use that as representative, your institution is entangled with other institutions that your institution is a feeder that your institution has support that your institution provides a foundation is the question that I'm asking flawed already. Is it possible to think about two year schools distinct from four year schools? Do you have to have them in the same vision? Or can to your schools be sort of reflected on in and of themselves by their own standards?
That's an interesting question. I think. So there are programs where the degree we offer is the highest degree. You don't transfer to a four year school. You know, within, in, there's programs where there's a seamless blend there, and I'm talking now career programs now transfer Associate of Arts program. And so, you know, we have a strong set of allied health programs, where we trained physical therapy assistants, right, they're not the physical therapist, they don't have the same level the same responsibility, but they are working with people on the exercises, they understand those they're able to work with the patients on those directly. We also have a Respiratory Therapy Program. And our respiratory therapists are the respiratory therapists that you work with. When you go in there are baccalaureate programs and there are associate programs. We have an Associate Program. The next degree for them is to get a bachelor's in health administration, if they want to advance in their career. You look at you get into skilled trade areas, auto mechanic, carpentry, right. The next program steps for those are often than management or process management types of degrees, but they've done what they can in that particular discipline. And so there's ways in which the training is in and of itself. But take nursing, we have a practical nursing program in a Registered Nursing program. We offer an Associates of Science, AAS degree in Registered Nursing. The next step is a bachelor's in Registered Nursing. It's the same credential, in many instances, the same pay.
So someone's going to be listening to your description, and they're going to say something like, okay, community colleges are the schools for people who get their hands dirty. That the four year schools are more theoretical the four year schools are for leadership. Is that unfair is that reductive?
I think it's a bit unfair and a bit reductive I can I'll give a very specific example. But, you know, within the business programs, you know, we have computer networking, business, general business counting program. In those cases, you know, you take the go through the business program, you're doing sales, it might be the same job, same pay. Is there a view there, you said something that triggered a memory of mine of sitting at a table, next to an accounting instructor with a master's degree. And across the table where some accounting instructors from a university partner of ours, and we're working through articulation transfer. And that just
that just means that the bureaucracy is there. So things can go from one school to the other? Correct.
And they didn't want to the school didn't want to take our class because our class was taught same number of credits, same learner outcomes, same textbook, same academic credential, have a master's degree to teach it. They didn't want to take the course, because as a two year school, we teach at a 200 level. In their program, it was at a 300 level, junior level. But for a student to finish the program in four years, you'd have to do that transfer. My faculty just about jumped out of their chair, when the university partner said, Yeah, we know you use the same textbook, but we teach it at a more theoretical level.
That I mean, right? Is that just bigotry? I mean, is that is that is that the class structure at work? I would
say yes. My immediate response to that is our students probably learn it better because they're learning it in a more applied environment.
That's really interesting. So on the pedagogical level, on the level of, of teaching method, and then philosophy of teaching, is there more tendency towards application in a school like yours? Is? Is the is would it be more real world oriented, more internship oriented, more practical? Or is that just the excuse that these professors used because they wanted to retain power over the other school?
I think it can be both. I think it was certainly the ladder. In my experience of teaching, one of the things I appreciated as a philosopher and it took me a couple of years, you describe that graduate student I want to teach at this type of institution in the community college isn't on that list. At first. It took me two or three years of being at Northland teaching. For me to actually go, you know, actually, I'm where I want to be. And that realization came one day after a class walking back to my office, and I realized how much I love the students in that they were just like the students at and in this case, it was at southern Connecticut State University, which as a state university had a demographic of students somewhat like a community college, a lot of first generation students would be the main overlap there. And a lot of a very diverse background of students. But there was another university I taught at and that is The College of St. Mary in Omaha, which is the sister institution in the Jesuit order of Creighton University. It's an all women's college, and I taught a 400 level, so senior level ethics class there, to a roomful of women, most of them studying to be nurses. And in every one of these cases, what the students what those learners needed, most or unwanted most, was that application. To put it another way, as I was at Creighton, it actually occurred to me that these students are in here, these women are in here because they're going into healthcare, and they actually think they're here to learn something they're going to use. And as a philosopher, used to playing in the theoretical realm, having a class full of students, students, nurses, respiratory therapists, looking at you, because you're teaching something that's relevant to their career is a responsibility and it overlaps that question. And it's why I fell in love with those students.
It makes me think of the time I taught it, Jersey City State, which was a four year school, but in Jersey City, a poor city. It was for allegedly the most diverse college campus in the country, a lot of working class kids, lot of foreign students, it was really I mean, it was an incredible experience. And on the first day, I told them, because this is the kind of teacher I am, I'm a horrible person, I told them, I'm going to use the same syllabus I use for all the other schools. But everyone has told me that you won't be able to do it, that I have to do a different syllabus, I have to do a an easier class for you guys. And they were so offended. And they were so upset, not by what I sat by what everyone else said that they worked so incredibly hard throughout the semester, that I don't think I could say anything other than they put full effort into it. And I don't have any recollection of them doing worse than anyone else. I don't have any recollection of any negativity, I only have positive memories of my relationships with the students. Is this analogous to the kind of thing you're talking about as well? Is there a sense, a false sense that, that, you know, the sister institution or the the partner institution was teaching on a 300 level, and you teach it on 200 level? And that's because ultimately, your students just aren't quite as good? Is that something that you face? And is it? Again, I'll use, I'll probably use this word a lot is that unfair?
I think it's part of the challenge there. Regardless of individuals and their personal views, there's institutions involved. And so for example, to get a bachelor's degree, you have to have a certain number of credits at the junior and senior level. And so there's very within that institutional structure, which may not be fair, there's legitimate concerns those faculty would have about if they take this course that's not at a junior level, they have to have something else in that curriculum for the student that is at that level. And so in the end, the student may end up taking the same number of extra credits just to graduate. So there's an institutional structure that undermines that. So I don't want to pin it all just on individuals. And that's not to say Anything's fair, anymore. Fair. I think part of the point with that example I give with the accounting instructor, is to bring out the that that and Herot view of this know that learner. And one thing I will say is the traditional view of higher ed is based on a certain view of what knowledge is. And we can go very theoretical here fast, but you know, it's a book learning reading knowledge. It's a visual learner. It's not a kinesthetic learner, necessarily, and a kinesthetic
learner is a learner who tactile tactile,
right, that's that's the stereotype. But interestingly, Jack, I am a kinesthetic learner. And when I question, the professional coach who did the assessment and shared this with me, but I'm a philosopher, how can I be a kinesthetic learner? And the response from her was your kinesthetic learner. In philosophy, you actually like working with the theories and taking them apart. And that clicked for me because as an undergraduate, I chose I double majored. But I went with philosophy and not English and English, we did new criticism, I didn't even know we're doing new criticism. You just wrote the papers. In philosophy, I was tearing things apart. And that was kinesthetic.
We have to take a break. But when we come back, I want to dive deeper into this question of what knowledge is and different styles of knowledge. So I want to talk a little bit about institutionalism and the sort of self consciousness of being in a two year institution or a four year institution, but first you're listening to Brian hustle and Jack Russell Weinstein on why philosophical discussions about everyday life We'll be back right after this.
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you're back with why philosophical discuss scenes of everyday life. I'm your host, Jack Russell Weinstein, we're talking with Brian harshal, from Northland Community and Technical College, about two year colleges, community colleges, their place in the culture, how they relate to four year colleges. And what it tells us about knowledge and students and all those things. And when I was thinking about this episode, and when I was thinking about talking to Brian, I kept going back to one of my all time favorite television shows, which is called community. And if you haven't seen community, you should, because it's unbelievably funny. It takes place in the community college, a four year community college, which is one of the inside jokes, but but but a community college. And the very first thing that the Dean says in the very first episode is he gives some sort of speech, messed up speech, because there's comedy to, to the students, and he says, this is a real college, and especially in the first season. He says over and over again, and they say this isn't a real college, and they say this isn't a real college. And, you know, they say this, it just over and over and over again. And throughout, the sitcoms always follow a path and the characters always get more absurd, and the circumstances get more absurd. But there is throughout the show this insecurity among the students, and that the students are all broken people, and only Greendale Community College has a place to fix them. So I guess the first question that I want to ask you is institutionally, is there this insecurity institutionally? Does the institution? Do the administrators just the structure to all the staff? Do they have this kind of insecurity that is depicted on community? Or is that just again, a sort of elitist attitude that because I'm, you know, at the University of North Dakota, I have to assume that these people aren't, don't think that they're doing the real thing?
I think that if you're talking to the staff, the faculty, the administrators, none of them think that they're not doing the real thing. And so, you know, I, to be honest, I'm familiar with the show, I watched a few episodes, I thought it was cute,
you know, different tastes,
and but in when I think about that, though, you know, some of it is there, perhaps is a cultural perspective perception there. But at the same time, you know, many of the students who come to college for particular training programs, they're there for the real thing. Nurses, they're there for the real thing, the aviation maintenance mechanics, that people fixing the engine on the plane you're riding on, are there for the real thing. And so I don't, I think that there's a tone of that. I also think that many people understand that it's not the real the way the colleges really are.
You said when you started answering that question, the faculty and the staff and the administrators, you didn't say the students? Do the students have the sense that that they went to the school because they couldn't get into another school? Because that's, again, the characters and community. They're all on their second chance. Right. But but there is this sense that when you talk about, you know, even the kids I know, in high school in Grand Forks, the ones who don't think they can, quote unquote, handle University will think about going to Northland tech. So does that insecurity does that I really wish I could remember this phrase that's in my head. How do the students feel about being there?
What I hear from the students is they feel welcomed, and they feel like they get a really good education. I think some of that when you talk about the 17, eight year old who's not ready, they could just as easily go down the road to a Mayville State University. What they're looking for, in my mind isn't so much the two year experience as the small college experience. And I think that's that part is certainly fair. Now there are aspects of this, right? We are we Northland and Minnesota State Colleges, and I think pretty much all community and technical colleges are open enrollment. So we don't have a GPA Oh, you didn't get a 3.0 GPA in high school. You can't be admitted here, right? it. And so when we say open enrollment, just the high school diploma or GED, you're admitted. Now within that structure, there's a waitlist 60 Students long for some of our competitive health programs. And you have to have good grades you have right to get into those. And so it's really a mix there in the school serves that mix, right? We serve the students who, for whatever reasons, maybe it's learning style, because in the 90s, and 2000s, our K 12 system basically dumped Career and Technical Education starting to rebuild it now. But that left a lot of learners behind. In a sense, I think the goal was not to leave any behind if I remember some of the national programs. But in fact, by focusing on that, a certain pathway of education, certain students, certain learners, certain goals didn't fit in. And when you don't fit in culturally, to a high school, you don't do well. And so then you're looking for a place where you can do well, and in many cases, that's a Community and Technical College. We serve a lot of the in these were my favorite students, the the, quote, non traditional students, the non trads. They were, I have to say, by far my favorite students, I viewed them as the students who had gone to the school of hard knocks for a few years. And they went to when they decided to settle down and go to college, they knew what they were there for. Because they knew what they were there for. They knew what they wanted to learn in my class.
I love the older students there, their focus, they bring a different voice in, they're often very, very nervous. And so they're reluctant to sort of impose their voice on the younger people, but they're in tremendous assets. And I want to go back to this idea of open enrollment. Because CUNY, the City University of New York, famously, for decades and decades and decades, the main campus was open enrollment, and it was also regarded as one of the best universities in the country. So open enrollment doesn't mean that students don't have the intellect or don't have the ability, it means that they somehow don't fit in. I often think of myself in that sense. I mean, our listeners don't know that much about my education history. But I was a terrible student, I got into college under a program called the Star Program, which I later found out stood for student at risk. And it was for a student who had high SATs and low grades, which was me or a student who had low grades and highest high second would say, high grades and low SATs. And I never really came into my own until I was working on my dissertation because I have this fundamental problem of authority. And so school never worked for me. It doesn't mean that I I'd like to think I wasn't dumb, right? I'd like to think I it's that I was impaired. So So I wonder if you would talk about the challenges of open enrollment, and what it's like to teach a group of students from a dozen different perspectives and a dozen different levels at the same time in the same room, it's work.
So let me say, you know, so one of the aspects of that, and, again, taking my institution as representative, our students of color are over twice what is reflected in our community. And so when I bring that up, you know, the city of Grand Forks is a relocation for immigrants, particularly Smalley, new Americans, and we have a large population of them. Now, they have GDS. They're fluent in English to do that. But have they passed a certain TOEFL exam score that a university would require to admit a student?
TOEFL is the TOEFL is the English language proficiency exam.
And thank you, Jack. And so they, you know, some of them would maybe not, but what's really interesting is I can have a native English speaker in that classroom, who easily writes at a college level, upper college level, and I can have a native speaker in that classroom that maybe is writing below that non native speakers language because of what they the experience they had in high school, and I don't look at it's not even my nature to say, they're not smart, right? It's just, it's the experience they had. It's where they came from. That might be family support, it might be a school experience. And so those students sit side by side. And you know, one of the skills that one develops and it was through for some professional developers, the type of written comments I would give because I pretty much gave essays to them all. On a non native speaker, I might approach my con Moving on that a little bit differently than I would a native speaker to help that person advance their writing skill. And so those are things that, you know, you learn as a teacher to work across those sections. And at the same time, you're pushing that other, perhaps a more advanced student on the written side, to change or advanced their thinking, their critical thinking
that there's a really interesting philosophical choice in there. Because many institutions, and I actually think und is really guilty of this, many institutions will take non native speakers and suggest they don't have the skills, they need remedial work. They're not up to the task. They're not as, quote unquote, smart. But it sounds but if you flip that around, one of the things you know about these non native speakers is they're speaking two languages, they're often speaking three, four or five languages, right? And so it's, you know, it's not a sign of lack of intellect, it's a sign that they haven't yet mastered all of the languages they have to speak when most Americans don't get past, you know, the sixth grade Spanish, right? And it sounds like your institution has made the philosophical decision to treat the intellect behind the skills more than the skills as an indicator of the intellect. Is that fair? I
think, absolutely. You know, as a faculty member and faculty members that I support and work with, you're developing the student in your development, developing them from where they are. And that may mean a certain focus on writing skills, when the thinking skills are there, when you, you know, have a non native speaker, they may be fluent in French, and some other native language, and their thinking skills outpace many of the students in the class. And you can see that when you're reading the English, and support that development, while improving that language use. And so really doing that and doing that integrated in the classrooms, I think, is a sound approach. You know, there's always a debate, particularly within the English area, particularly, do you want to separate those language learners so you can really focus on them? Or do you want them integrated and, you know, there's challenges there, first of all institution, you have to have a large enough group of students to make it work. But the other side of that is, it's a real debate as what as to which is better. And our students, our second language learners, prefer being in the classroom with their native speakers. If we were when we surveyed and looked at that type of an approach, the students were where they want it to be. And so then it's a matter of supporting the faculty to work through that and support the learners,
how student driven is a small institution like yours. And what I mean by that is, again, I'll use und as an example. My university, we're curriculum driven, we have all these programs that have to be accredited. And when my department thinks about its major, yes, we'll think about enrollment for classes, but we don't sit down with students and ask what they want and what they need. But the survey that you you just talked about suggested that maybe your smaller institution, can it be more responsive? Is it more nimble than a larger institution like ours?
I think it can be. And again, I'm just going to highlight that this is not unique to a two year institution, right. It's part in part, it's the smallness. I think there are ways culturally, as far as workforce development training, where maybe two year schools are more nimble than four year institutions. And that that gets into institutional structure, not looking at the student side and student experience. But on the student experience side, I think that there's advantages to small schools. And we can look at that student that 18 year old who's not who's self selects is not ready to sit in a lecture hall of 200 students, rather than a lecture hall of 40 or 30. Right. And we can judge that student as not being ready for the university. Or maybe we could judge that student is having the self awareness to know where they can be successful.
I, I'm really I'm processing what you just said, because it was super rich. And I guess the question that comes out of it first is what does success mean in this context? And do you think that a notion of coming Unity college or two year school, or a technical college? Because I guess one of the questions that comes out of that is, when you say Community and Technical College, are those two different colleges merged? Is that just a rhetorical flourish? Is it what does that signify? But is your definition of success? Different than, let's say, Harvard or Yale? Or even und not that they should necessarily be in the same sentence? But um, what does success mean for your institution?
That's a really rich policy question. Without perhaps knowing it. In some sense, any institution that uses in the jargon title for any institution that administers federal financial aid, has the same definitions of success because they have to meet certain standards, and that's graduation, right? Graduation rates, employment rates, retention, Completion, right, those things are all monitored within that. And then the student the graduates ability to pay back the loans what, what that rate is, so those are all things looked at there. And and we're all measured by those when we talk about college rankings. You know, there's, there was a day when we were young, I was young when it was US News and World Report's. You know, now there's wallet hub, and all these different things.
I had US News and World Report written in the monologue, and then I took it out because I said, Jack, you're old. I don't know that that exists anymore. Sorry, it
doesn't exist. Okay. But there's so many alongside of it, that use so many different metrics, and Northland, you can look at our web page, you can go to any community college and Technical College, I suspect and see where they rank well by different measures. And a lot of those are, you know, what is the salary that student is making after graduation for their tuition costs, that you know, in a business sense, we call that a return on investment. Return on investment for a student going into construction electricity is way higher than many bachelor bachelor degrees. homeownership, if we're going to mark the American dream, culturally, homeownership, a two year degree in the trades is the fastest path to homeownership in North Dakota. And so, when we think about these things, you know, there's a lot of different values out there. Now, there was last point I kind of want to make about how we think about success. So yeah, we struggle with that probably in a way that a four year university doesn't. You know, like many two year schools, we're close to four year schools, we have a lot of students. So success as defined as degree completion. And so an Associate of Arts in particular, we know that's a struggle, we have a lot of students who don't complete this hoax Associate of Arts. But that was never their goal. They want it to get rid of they want it to knock out some general education classes, they wanted to take psychology, not in a lecture hall with 200 students, they wanted to take composition in a small setting chemistry. So they do a semester a year and then transfer to a four year school that will take each of those classes one for one, because they're one for one. And that student is successful, that student met their success metrics. Unfortunately, as an institution, in the institutional that landscape, we don't necessarily get to claim that success.
That's super interesting. Let me let me go back for a second to the return on investment, because I'm going to use an example. And then and then we'll move forward. longtime listeners will know that I made to maintain a website called philosophy as a great major.com. And we have a lot of these statistics. And one of the interesting statistics is that the return on investment of a philosophy degree is actually the same as the return on investment in an engineering degree. Because even though engineers will make higher salaries on average than a philosopher, they also have to spend significantly more money to get that, then a philosopher does. And so when you do all of the math, the most obvious answer the higher salary doesn't necessarily win, right? Because as we all know, right at this point in time in American history, having no student loans or fewer student loans is a massive economic advantage. That same idea that you mentioned just a moment ago that the two year school is the fastest path to homeownership. That's super fascinating, because especially in a place like North Dakota, where there is an affordable home housing market, where it's just it's just it's all very different here than it is on say, the Northeast or the West Coast. You can have a really good life. If once you have a base of operations, and so I guess the question then becomes, is there a sense, an informal sense amongst your faculty, staff and administrators about student success that takes into account the successful transfers, that takes into account the students that want to move on to another institution? Can you see that and say, not necessarily for the for the for the federal report, but for your internal evaluations? Look, we know that bill that Sally that won that Muhammad, they got where they wanted to go? How much do you use those informal measures of success to guide your policy?
I would say we use them quite a bit. And some of them are national benchmark assessments that are surveys that we give to students in their first year or their second year, we also have a homegrown survey we use to survey our students experience. And so we use those quite a bit to benchmark where our students are meeting their goals. And we also, you know, each one of our students meets in person with a professional advisor, it's how we're structured. And so we get a lot of informal feedback there, where we know if those students are being successful, they've met their goals at the institution, before they're leaving, with or without the degree completion. Of course, we'd like to degree completion. And I would say, I think a lot of times, you know, well, that's the students goal, there's a value that students and their 1920, you know, there's a value to completing an associate of arts that a lot of students don't recognize, because their goal is to, you know, get a couple of semesters under their belt, in those courses, part very well with our regional partners, but a completed degree design transcript forever and doesn't expire. And so, you know, sometimes I could take an anatomy and biology course, if you end up trying to take that into a program sometime later, it may not count. It won't be recent enough. But so there's a value to that degree completion. It's not sometimes not recognized by the very students we serve, we work to communicate that. But in the end, they're individuals making the decisions that feel right to them.
How in sync are the students desires, and the students definitions of success with the institutional notion of success? I think at UND, and I think at most four year schools, there is a general consensus of what success means. And it's getting a credential and moving on your circumstances a bit more complicated. So how does the long term view of the professional staff Jai jibe with the view of the students, or is there a conflict there?
I think those fit together well. I think there's two places where you know, that students success pictures, more complicated in that transfer area. And then in the workforce development area, so are students who are enrolling in career technical programs, health building trades, auto mechanics, aviation, maintenance, UAS maintenance,
unarmed aircrafts on unmanned, unmanned right now, not all of our very armed unmanned aircraft. Yeah.
The, you know, those, I think they're the idea of success is the same degree completion in a job. And that's the same in MIT for many of the university programs, right, that's what you're looking for. On the workforce development side, we do a lot of what's called customized training or workforce development, where an employer will have a cohort of employees that they want to train and some of those will be in a group by themselves a closed cohort, it's not open to anybody but those employees to enroll in. It may be credit based meaning they take specific courses that are in our curriculum exist and are credit based, and after a while, they can add those up to a certificate or diploma degree. In other instances, that type of development, that employer just has a particular say a particular welding process, they want this group of employees to learn and they will complete that and that's successful. But it may not fit into a credential. It may not fit into a degree. And so so there's some there's challenges and complexities there. that perhaps don't exist. University, you know, I won't say they don't exist university there, perhaps bigger touchpoints for the type of workforce development at a two year school compared to workforce at a four year.
I want to take a step back and talk a little bit about student experience. And the first question I have, I alluded to in my initial comments. Northland Tech has two campuses, one Thief River Falls, one in East Grand Forks, two hours down the road in North Dakota, in Devil's Lake is like region State College, which is also to your school there or to your schools elsewhere to do students pick the community college, because it's their local community college, because they can drive there because it's, you know, across some invisible border where it's closer to go to Northland than it is to go to Lake region, or is there a kind of selection process that is more choosy? I don't know, I don't know what the word would I
think it depends on the student's goals. Again, the transfer student might just pick the one that's close, they can live at home rent free, right? There's financial things driving it, whatever it is, right. But there are certainly students who pick program or colleges for other reasons. We, for example, attract several athletes from out of state student athletes. Georgia, Florida, Puerto Rico. And so just like any institution that has athletics, students come for the athletic program for the coach, we have, you know, women's basketball team, for example, that's national champions. And so you can have students select for those reasons. You can have students select a Community and Technical College because of a one one of a kind program. One of our sister institutions has the only violin repair program in the nation. There are violin building programs at four year institutions. But it's the only violin repair program. Northland, I'm proud to say has the only unmanned aerial system UAS Maintenance Technician program in the nation. There was another one, but they focus more on the engineering side, not the technician side. And, you know, in the background of that, I think another thing that people don't recognize, so our UAS program was built with Department of Labor federal grant dollars and maintained with National Science Foundation 80 E, which is advanced technical, technological education dollars. Those are research dollars, those original federal grants paid the faculty to create a curriculum, the first of its kind in the world, and design that curriculum for to train these technicians to the specs needed by companies like Northrop Grumman. And that research which resulted in that curriculum lives in an open educational resource, meaning it's free for anybody to access as a curriculum out there, because it's federally funded. And that's one of the rules around NSF funding, National Science Foundation funding.
Now, I have to ask you a question that I don't care about at all, but I know I can think of various people who will. What division is your basketball team in d3, d3, okay.
You know, and then and not all right, we're unscored non scholarship. Okay, three school. So there are scholarships ones.
All right. So you sports people get off my back to I'm trying to figure out how to ask this question. And it's still about the student experience. Colleges, especially elite colleges and liberal arts colleges have reputations of being very liberal, and I'm very focused on on activism and you have to use your pronouns correctly, and you have to do all of these things. Is there the same sort of, of sense amongst to your schools that, you know, you go to you go to school to become a liberal and so your parents you disagree with your parents on Thanksgiving? Right? Is there that sense? Or, or maybe they're more inherently conservative? Or maybe there isn't that political culture at all? And let me take a step back and tell you why I'm asking this question. The open enrollment aspect, and the diverse population and the English language learners and the non traditional age students. It makes your call Knowledge much more representative of the pluralistic democracy that we live in. Right? That, yes, the current power systems are such that the people who have in power have a say and the people who don't don't, your institution seems like a place where the powerless can get access to that power, where the diverse populations get their entrance into the larger democracy. And if that's the case, then practicing the political process, having political opinions, arguing with one another about about positions and policy, this has a place and one of the things that undergraduates tend to do when they engage in this activism, is they're mimicking the larger world, in part because they for personal reasons, for social justice reasons for whatever, want to make the jump into influencing the culture. Because there's such a diverse population, that's, that's, let's say, moving into the ability to have some power and have some say, do you have that same political culture or is that reserved for other kinds of schools,
we have the political culture. Now I'll speak about it at the student level. One of the things that I would say I'm proud of, of Northland is we have student senate, for rural college, five hour drive from where the statewide meetings are often held, we have a high participation of our student leadership and state level student leadership. And so there's that side of it. As a faculty, I had students who wanted to do philosophy, I created a club called the thought club, we did philosophy. You know, so like, I think any institution where there's the student interests to drive student clubs, there's faculty to support that, you know, we have clubs, we have a pride club, for example, we, you know, we touch all of those areas, I indicated earlier, you know, for racial ethnicity, we reflect twice our community's population, compared, you know, for first generation students were much higher than a four year institution, are we reflective of the community? I'm not sure there, have that answer, I could find out. But when you look at those areas, you know, the social political spectrum, we're just a reflection of our, you know, our community, and in our case that students from the region but students from the nation is is there in the sense, and I'll say, the same with the staff.
Is there? I don't know how to ask this except in the stupidest ways. Is there racial tension? Is there the same divides? Or is there something about the culture of the community that since you have a larger percentage of people of color, say in the Grand Forks community that there's, there's more acceptance rather than less acceptance? Or is it just, it's just a mirror of the community, and if things go bad, outside, things go bad inside?
I think that I'll say my institution has been really fortunate that we've had a positive culture, you know, through the last few years, as an institution, we took steps in after the killing of George Floyd to make sure that our students understood that this was a welcoming institution. That message was to all students. And so, you know, absolutely. We have a criminal justice program. We are aligning our curriculum to train our graduates to meet the state standards. We always have, you know, is there tension in those conversations? Absolutely. But is there it's, I think, the same as any institution of higher learning the intent is to create good people who are educated and make good decisions.
Good. I'm really glad you said that not just because I think it's good, but because it leads them to this question, which is one of the central tenants of liberal arts education is character education, virtue, education, ethical, educate, be good people be good citizens, be good human beings. And, and in any school, there is this tension between this liberal arts goal and the vocational goal or this certification goal or the student who just wants to take upper level classes in their major and get it quickly. How do you at Northland navigate the creation of the cultivation of humanity to steal Martha Nussbaum phrase with the the the more vocational, more technical, more precise education that you guys do so well.
So, um, I guess, if we're thinking about that on the student experience on the curricular side, right. Our one year diplomas and certificates, so two semester course of study, all have a general education requirement in them. It's a transfer course. And it's a course on that it's called on human relations. And it transfers within a communications area. And so within that, though, that human relations class, it's a, the course itself is a cross between communications and cultural awareness. And so there's no some cultural communications being taught what is
cultural awareness mean in this context.
So that the students are being exposed to learner outcomes around diversity and inclusion, okay. And in that particular class, they would be not global, but, um, within the United States, within our curriculum, we separate a global diversity versus a within the United States. Okay, diversity, part of our state structure. And so they're meeting their the goal there is really to help round out that student who really just came to, you know, study a trade on a two year program of diploma, they will have a, you know, probably another course or two, rounding out, you know, that type of the person. If you people have heard me say something like an Associate of Applied Science, that's a particular associate level degree. And in that, a fourth of the credits, a fourth of the 60 credits, it might go more than 60. But then a minimum of 15 of those credits, is, are in what we call the Minnesota transfer curriculum, our system, their general education, courses across general education levels that are required in any Associate degree, Associate of sciences, 50% 30 credits. And so by the very nature of the curriculum, construction, students get that type of training.
I'm going to ask a question, and it's a ridiculous question. And it's totally unfair. And I'll ask the question in philosophical terms first, and when I ask it, you're gonna laugh, and then I'll translate it into this context. And the question I'm going to ask is, Can virtue be taught? So of course, yeah. Okay, so So, so here's, here's, here's the question. There is some sense that, you know, we can teach students in an ethics class, but we can't teach them to be ethical, right? We can teach students about pluralism, but we can't teach them to be tolerant or multicultural or celebratory. Do you think in your experience, that you actually are able to round out the students in the way that you're describing? Do you think that you can really teach students in general and at your institution, to be good people to be good citizens? I mean, can can you teach that kind of thing? Or can you only expose people to circumstances and let them figure it out for themselves?
I think that can be taught. And I think there's empirical evidence that shows it. This is one of the things I learned teaching medical ethics courses to medical students going into associate level programs. In doing that research and reading, there is there are studies of decision making within healthcare settings around the ethical issues. And what those studies show is that students who have been exposed to professional ethics courses are less likely to make a bad decision. In practice in the field, they are more likely, you know, they're less likely to succumb to peer pressure, say you're working in a nursing home that has a bad practice of not charging something, they're less likely to become succumb to that peer pressure to fall into that bad culture that can lead to bad outcomes for the residents to patients, and more likely to bring it to the attention of appropriate people to write that ship. And so, I think that that type of training is very crude. a call and I think there's studies and evidence that shows in professional settings. And I have to extrapolate that to personal settings that, yeah, the exposure has learning behind it that has positive outcomes, can virtue be taught? Yes.
Is there a, is there a Northland alumni culture? Is there a sense that students come back the way that they'll do for many other schools, and they'll talk about their time there. And they'll talk about what they learned, and they have a favorite professors. And of course, you ask them for money. And is there the same sort of thing
there is we have a foundation. And it's, I think, at two year schools, this area is perhaps less well developed. Because the, the nature of the institutions there, and funding models for them, to your schools, frankly, weren't in a position to have to have foundations as early in our development as universities. And so, but yeah, we do have a foundation, we work now to develop that culture. It's interesting, you know, different institutions are different paths. And that and it's true across the board, regardless of you know, up to doctorate level institutions, and even know, within an institution like ours, some of that some of the strength there is on the campus, where we host the athletic programs, you develop more of that culture of affinity to come back and remember the days for that. But I'll say on both campuses, we have students who, you know, will come back for a different degree, and they choose us to come back to and so there's that part of the alumni experience, too.
Do you think that? Um, do you think that those students who use Northland tech as a path to a different institution and get, let's say, their bachelors somewhere else? Does that bachelors Eclipse their associate?
That's a challenge for two year schools in the fundraising from alumni. I think in general, I think you tend it's human, I think it's human nature, right? It you, we can create the experience and develop that, but there's a human nature where you're gonna go back to that experience, or that last place. And so yeah, yeah. I'll stop there. I lost my train of thought,
No, I, I understand the terminal degree that the, you can really be appreciative of the first half of the race, but you're going to celebrate the finish line is,
right, right. That's a way of capturing that human sitter.
So I guess the last question I want to ask, which may not be the last question, but the last question I want to ask is, is the question of the episode because I think that you would be able to articulate it better than I, what are community colleges for? What role do they play? And why do they play that?
They play a critical role in providing the education for the people who really are the glue of society, in many respects, the technicians the, in some instances, the terminal degrees and certain fields, they play a critical role for social mobility. One thing we haven't talked about, and this varies a bit from state and system to system, but pretty universally in this nation now. To your schools are critical and concurrent enrollment, where fancy term but where high school students take courses and get the college credit that is transcripted counted on our college and we put that on our transcripts. That's a huge part of the student base that we serve. And that is in some ways, because for those high school students, that's often free college, that what that means for social mobility is absolutely critical, and plays a big role for that aspect of higher education in our country.
We know a lot of students in these dual credit programs, but few are in North Dakota because Minnesota has a very, very rich program of of high school students in community colleges, and it's I wish North Dakota had it. Why? Why is community college so much cheaper?
I'm not sure because we're constantly fighting up against the budget, but that's higher ed and General. You know, I think, in some ways, if you walk across not all but many community college campuses, the physical plant, the physical infrastructure is not as great. So there isn't as much need to support there. My two campuses consists, there are some small buildings, but they consist of one primary building. Good, good, good, good,
good. I'm sorry to interrupt. But but but you're saying this thing. And through the entire process, I've wanted to ask you this question. But I feel stupid asking it and now you've given me you've given me the permission. Almost every community college I've ever been to, has been not only one building, but often like some sort of round or square building that you can do laps
in North Dakota is really unique in that it's community colleges are not that
why what's going on? They're structurally institutionally, you know, and in the in the show community, you you get that to, I can't remember what there's a there's a Minnesota State School, it might be Marshall, I can't remember. That was a two year school. And that was four year school. I wouldn't give a lecture that and I can't remember what it is. But and, and again, you can do laps, is there a pedagogical reason? Is there a real reason for that? Or is it just some weird sort of idiosyncrasy?
I'm not? I don't I don't know. I think in some instances, you know, so like, within the Minnesota system on the technical side came out of what were called area vocational technical institutes, abt eyes. Those were actually affiliated with high schools originally, in contrast to the community college. Yeah, they emerge and they merge mission. And, and often, in some instances, I think that building structure has carried over from that. And so there might be some history of the development culturally within the nation and where those schools came from. I think in some instances, its funding. You know, many schools are non residential, meaning we don't have dorms, nor one of our campuses is completely non residential is the full commuter campus. The other campus, we don't have dorms, but our foundation has student housing that they run. And so there's, it's separate from the institution, and it's not part of our campus proper, but it serves our students through the foundation. And so those aspects of community colleges, I think, the the to that different design. I'm sure there's more there that I'm just not aware of,
it feels to me that there's something inherently supportive about that style of building where you feel protected, you feel everything you can easily get from one place to another, that you don't have to run across campus. You don't have to put on your coat that it feels more community oriented to me and more self contained. But but you know, that's that that's just off the top of my head. Is there anything that you feel we missed? Is there any last thoughts that you have about this that you think is super important to communicate, either conceptually or practically, about the two year schools that that don't get the attention they deserve?
Well, I think this has been a great chance for people to understand better understand Community Technical colleges. I think, for me, personally, the baseline is the student is it's the student reserve. I said a little bit earlier, you know, my experience, and recognizing, you know, I taught at Big 10 universities, I taught at private selective universities, I taught at rural, private, rural public universities, when I realized my favorite student, was a first generation student, who was maybe 25 had bumped a couple of walls to get into my classroom, and actually expected from some philosopher that they were going to learn something they would use and work in their day to day life working. It challenged me, and it gave me a respect for that student. Some of that may be my own personal background. But in the end, that's who it's about. It's about being that bridge for students and recognizing that in many ways, our students are way more diverse than universities by our very nature.
Well, I appreciate you coming on the show and having this conversation because, as I said to you off the air, this is not a conversation I've seen anywhere and I think that the coming Unity college as an institution does not get the respect it deserves and does not isn't even fully understood. And I'm guilty of that myself. So Brian, thank you so much for joining us on why it has been my pleasure, Jack. You have been listening to why philosophical discussion about everyday life with Brian hustle and Jack Russell wants you and I will be back with a few thoughts right after this.
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You're back with why philosophical discussions about everyday life. I'm your host, Jack Russell Weinstein, we were talking with Brian Hutsul, from Northland Community and Technical College about the roles of community college about the role of two year schools and the way in which the rationality of these institutions work and the cultural place of the institutions. And I thought it was super fascinating. And one of the things that really came out, or that I was reminded of at the end, was this phrase essential workers, right? When when that when the pandemic first hit, there was a lot of conversation about how the people who were the most essential to our culture are the people who got the least attention. And it was the delivery people and it was the food workers. And it was the people who, who kept the society running, when all of the office workers or other folks stayed at home, and how these essential workers were at a higher risk of COVID and of complications and ultimately, of death, even though they got paid the least. And I kept thinking about that, because the things that the examples that Brian kept giving, right. We have the pilots, but Northland tech, trains mechanics, we have the the doctors but the respiratory technicians are coming out of Northland tech, the physical therapist assistants who work with the people who who who bend their legs, right, and who have are the first responders so to speak. And all these things come from Northland tech. And so there's something analogous going on that the people who are the most connected the most necessary the most. The glue that holds our society together to use one of Brian's phrases are the people who get the least respect the least attention, and sometimes even the least support. The students that I get the transfer from Northland tech are super exciting to have because they've have a background and they're excited about school and they've chosen to go to school themselves as opposed to just going out of high school. And the longer I've been here, the more I felt an affinity with Bryan School Northland Tech because it's it's, it's it's down the road, but also the integrated nature of these schools. Ultimately, there is a core philosophical question and that is, what does an institution of education look like? And the answer is not just one thing. If we tell our kids if we tell our students if we tell our citizens, that you're only a success, if you go to one type of school, not only are you leading them astray, but you're making a whole spectrum of successes, invisible. Community colleges are places of success. We now have to make them places of respect. You've been listening to Jack Russel Weinstein on why philosophical discussions about everyday life please don't forget to go to why radio show.org Click donate and help us continue with this program. But whether you do or not, I thank you for listening. As always, it's an honor to be with you.
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