Afghanistan and Me. Global Journalism Seminar with Afghan broadcast journalist Sana Safi

12:30PM Jan 12, 2022

Speakers:

Meera Selva

Keywords:

afghanistan

taliban

journalists

people

afghans

story

country

afghan

question

speak

journalism

women

documentary

happening

international

day

support

moment

female

individuals

So who is completely new to this to the story? And they were, they said yes, of course. And I think that is the strength of having that kind of an arrangement because you end up having a product that is that is in full of empathy tells the story but also, it is slightly slightly detached and doesn't confuse the audience. If you listen to something and you come away from it, accepting that that's what I've had the feedback in regards to the documentaries you listen to it, you come away and you say, Oh, that was good. It wasn't too emotional. It was in to blame game It wasn't to victimized. But I also understood something. There was a story there and I and I felt that I now know more about Afghanistan. than I would have done if it was like a two minutes package or something. So I think it's the strength of having the two.

That's really really interesting. Can I Can you can you think of any examples from the documentary where you frame something differently or added something or took something out on the basis of these conversations with your producer?

Um, it was, I mean, there were a couple of because we when we were making the documentary, we, the producer and I, Craig, the producer, Craig Smith, we spoke at length before recording, and we did the recording over several days, but for to two hours. So altogether, it was six, six hours of recording for me. And then there were obviously things that I said that didn't make sense, I'm sure because it was six hours. of recording right and at times, I was very emotional. But the real word came after we gathered all the material and when it when it came to editing and scripting it there were things I remember there was a specific word I'd used for when I described the Taliban, not the Taliban. The foreign as the Western backed Mujahideen elements were individuals who were fighting against the Soviet backed regime in Kabul. And I'd used a word when I went through the Swift again and I said to Craig, I said, Oh, that's not right. I'm being too emotional. I'm taking you know, these were yes, these repeat people, but the way I'm describing them, it doesn't make sense. And he said yes, of course, you know, when we were recording and it just made sense, because we were there in the moment, but in the edit, we had to go through the script again and remove that. So it's it's things like that, that really help when you have a fresh perspective.

Perspective I know this the last few months, especially if the summer are not ones that you'd ever want to repeat. But what did you think about the kind of the International broadcasting off the story? What was your perspective on it again? Is it the story you would have told would you have told us something differently?

Well, international aspects or the way the Afghan story was told on international media was not one that Afghans would have wanted, because the focus was on the withdrawl. First of all, on foreign trips, then when cobble did fell on August 15. The focus was on the airport, while the rest of the country was dealing with arbitrary detentions. And killings in in different parts of the country. Revenge attacks, people losing lives and livelihoods. If you ask an Afghan they would say, you know that was a distorted version of what was happening. It was an important aspect of the story. But it wasn't the whole story. For Afghans it was a country that fell to a group that most people fought for 20 years to get rid of. And again on the international stage, you know, many were spent, blood was shot there from from NATO and coalition forces. So for Afghans they wanted a holistic approach. They wanted the world to know where it started, how it started, how it was going and where it was ending up. But the version you got from the international media was cobbled filled with the Taliban and Afghan student fight, which is again, not true for the past 20 years 1000s of Afghan security forces died because of the fight. Even I mean, my own my sister's brother, my sister's husband, sorry, was killed in 2019. So, you know, Afghans continue to lose lives and livelihoods, but yet the narrative on the international stage was the same that Oh, carbon Fenwick is Afghanistan fight. So for Afghans it was it was a very disappointing way of telling the story, but then there were journalists who really went above and beyond and tried to tell the story in a way that was fair to all sides. And that was giving the audience's something that they wouldn't have got otherwise. One of the examples I can mention is at least two sets podcast series. A wish for Afghanistan, that is something that you can all listen to. It's available. She interviews Afghans on different sides of the political aisle, and it really is a great piece of journalism. The same with another lady that I would really want you to follow her work is as a Madcon. She has done some brilliant work on the civilian cost of the war in the last 20 years, not just in Afghanistan, Afghanistan, but in Iraq as well. And another person that I really want you to, to read is Mr. Garrison from The Guardian. She has done great work on Afghanistan, particularly on how women see the takeover but also even before the takeover what the situation of women was, and even still, she's following stories. So yeah, there are great examples, but obviously in such a big story like Afghanistan, I'm sure there will be things that people don't agree on.

This is absolutely vital. Can I ask you, I've noted and I, I'm not surprised at all that you mentioned kind of female journalists in your reporting in your kind recommendations. And we'll come to that because I think this is a kind of topic that I really want to look into. But the audience perspective you mentioned giving the audiences what they need. You have been speaking to the Pashtun community for years. Do you feel what do you feel your connection is with them? And since last summer, certainly do you feel the relationships of trust and kind of the willingness to be part of a community has that changed and if so, do they still trust you as journalists?

Yeah. One of the feedback I get from my community is that people who, who see me somewhere, let's say in a party, they say, Oh, Sophie Yes, we know you but we don't know us. And the reason is, they know me through social media, but they don't know know me personally and what my politics are and why was and that was partly slightly by design. When I came to the first of all, I grew up in Afghanistan in different parts of the country. So I don't have a strong locality where I can just say, Hey, I am from Birmingham, for example. I can't say that because I'm not from a one location. I lived in different parts of Afghanistan. I spoke with different communities and I was immersed with different communities. Then I left Afghanistan when I was 18. So I came to the UK at age of 18. I had to work on myself but also the try and get a job and study and all that. So I was busy with myself for a while, at the same time doing stories. So my relationship with the Afghan community was always through social media, the internet and it was very, how would I put it? It is a very close relationship, but also a detached one. What I mean by that is that when I come home, my relationship with Afghan communities only through my work when I come home, it's just me. Yes, my family is Afghan and they're still in Afghanistan. Some of them are in different parts of the world. But my Inner Inner Space is just me. So it's a very detached relationship, but also one that I care. I care about the Afghan people I care because I know that their language I know that feelings and I know what they've gone through. So there's empathy but not emotions, if that makes sense. And I think they see that because I'm not there to take sides. Afghanistan is a diverse country. It is multilingual, multi sectarian, it's it's multicultural. I know where the country has been through and I know what those people have been through. And it's not my job to really focus on one community, not the other or feels more empathy insensitive with one or the other. So I have Yes. And I think that that's the best way I can describe it. And that's what the feedback I get from the people that I meet.

Thank you very much. And I'm sorry about my dog that is kind of complaining in the background. And this kind of relates there to questions from the journalist fellows about this and in particular, your role as kind of narrator in your documentary and so you're, you're kind of struggling a role that's both Narrator an impartial observer. Could I ask if this is feasible Morton, do you want to come and ask your question?

Thank you. Yes. Okay. Sorry. I just have one quick question for you. When you were reformed your own story, as a reporter gives you a certain set of challenges. It's just wondering which part did you find most challenging here before you're on solid?

That is, that is a really good question. And it's an important question. Because, again, with a story like this, and it's so intense, it's so it's big. It is full of emotions, and there are so many personal aspects in there. It was hard, and I would say all of them were challenging. I don't have one particular area that I would say was far more challenging. But I would say when I was talking about it, i Yes, this I you know, I lived in Afghanistan on those things did happen, but I've never talked about those stories with anybody. Over a few days period continuously. Yes, I may have I may. Have spoke about some of the events that I had seen or heard with the friends family or contacts here and there. I may have just mentioned one or two examples, but I never spoke about start to finish and that was the hardest because I think when you when you talk for six hours, and after that you listen to the raw audio, you go through it and you say oh my god, I'm so I've been through so much. And you can't help but feel sorry for yourself. Because the focus goes from the story to yourself. You're like, yeah, I was so young, and these things happened. And then you have to take a breath and say, Hang on a minute. This is not about you. This is about the country, but also you're part of a very huge story. This is the story of most Afghans. And I think that was the most difficult part. For me, in particular, when I was listening to the raw material afterwards. It just felt a bit too much. And one of the worries that I had was, is it too exposing my exposing too much. Am I making the story about myself? Because I really want to tell the story of the country. It's not about me. I know these stories are common and each and every Afghan has gone through something similar. So that was one of the things that I always had in the back of my mind to the day when it went out. And after I received feedback. I was worried about that. And I think that was probably the challenging part.

Thank you very much. Yeah, I think this is some just kind of a few people have asked that question. But how do you know when you put yourself and your voice and you literally hear your voice speaking how do you not react emotionally and I think you're right you you do react emotionally but it's what you what you do with it and what you present later. Thank you. Can we talk now about the kind of issue that was raised about the issue of women in and women journalism in with the status of women in journalism, but also in Afghanistan, but also in particular, the role of female correspondents? Because, from my perspective, you're absolutely right. Some of the most outstanding reporting has been done by female correspondents, at a time that women's rights in Afghanistan are being quite systematically dismantled and eroded. What do you know, I'm not asking you to predict the future on this, but how can the international community and how can Afghan journalists and journalism community help support women in journalism in this space?

I'll start by saying what is happening in journalism in Afghanistan? And from what I'm what I've been hearing from journalists on the ground, they're saying that there is a slow death of journalism in the country. Why? Because out of 600, outlets 240 Or just below 250 have been shot 1000s spazzes out of a population of 10,000. Journalist 1000s have lost their jobs. A female the number of female journalists before the takeover was about 3000 people. And now only hundreds of them are just a few 100 under 500. I would say I've still been to work they're still working a female journalists. The same with male journalists, journalists, the total population was 10,000 but now they're just under three or 4000 People still active. You have a funding issue. So yes, there is the international sanctions then. In the past, media outlets were supported by national and international aid. That has stopped and there were individuals who had their own outlets. Some call them strong men, those are no longer there, because their outlets have been stopped by the new regime because of the fact that they were seen as polarizing or individuals who were just using their own money to fund a media outlet. But overall funding is an issue and that has led to the the shutdown of of media outlets. Then you have female journalists not going to work because they because of the fear. And because of the new regimes rules that are have been imposed by the media. So the rules are vast and vague in general, but mostly it's to do with the work of men and women in one office. The way women are dressed, so they're required to be in full hair jobs. I follow her job, don't show her. I wear the clothes that is not showing you your hair and it has to be modest. So yeah, modest clothing. And if you if you if you ask women not to go to an office where there are men so there's strict segregation of work, you know, the sexes, it's making it difficult for people to operate. You can't have two offices. You can't have two separate rooms, so that that's automatically preventing women from pursuing their jobs. And then it's the fear because women those who remember the previous Taliban regime, they just automatically assume that it's probably brutal if they go out of their homes, they do not want to come across a situation where they're stopped on the road or told where you're going was searched or humiliated. And then you have the I talked about the economic pressures but the Taliban pressure as a whole everything has to be within the Islamic structure, the Islamic framework. And that's very, very problematic for most media workers because they don't know what they mean by that. You know, you can easily get into trouble and most people don't take that risk. So that's what's happening at the moment. Great work has been done by women. That is true, both nationally and internationally. Women have been at the forefront of most of the developments. I would say even the protests that are happening at the moment are by women women go out in the street everyday demanding their rights, and those are covered by by everybody, but mostly female journalists are in touch telling these stories. How can Women Journalists be helped Well, funding is number one, obviously. If there is if there is scope to support female outlets and female journalists and great another another one is to

a way to work with the current structures that are there, because most image journalists that I've spoken to, they're saying we can't if we can't have a if we can't have a role in the current media landscape, then maybe we need to start something that is female owned inside the country, but we need funding and that has to be funded by somebody independent. On smaller, smaller scale. I would say if you can mentor a female journalist, then that will be another way if you can support them in whatever way to tell their stories, but also to give them a platform so they can tell stories. If you have an outlet and a publication that that would be another way to do that. But many Afghan journalists were evacuated to other countries across the world. If they can be given opportunities to tell Afghan stories in that's another way of addressing the problem. But none of them are going to be enough because the country needs an independent media and at the moment that is slowly slowly disappearing.

Absolutely. And yeah, and there isn't really an obvious solution for this. I'm going to go back to the room and go to higher at the back there from Palestine, your question.

I wanted to ask you, what would you say to the girls who are trapped in the parent of a child right? Understand what more to my wife what sense

Did you manage to hear that question? If not, I could repeat it.

Thank you. Hi, just the last part of it but if you can repeat it that's a great

words of advice and sense of hope. Could you give to the girls of Afghanistan? Yeah, they said you were in when you were a child.

Yeah. Hi is referring to the age education because we're goals are banned from secondary school at the moment. They don't go to secondary school because the Taliban have they have not said anything publicly. But we do have stories and cases of oh, it's because of the funding. We don't have enough money. That's why we've told them to stop. Or it's because of cultural reasons. We don't want to provoke backlash. Is there too many stories in regards to why females secondary school students are not allowed to to school? One word of advice. I would first of all say that 2021 or 2022. Afghanistan is very different from the 1990s Afghanistan when I was growing up, the world or Afghanistan was completely cut off from the rest of the world. There was no Internet, there was no outside connection. There were just Taliban and that was it. Now we are in a far better situation. The world disconnected Afghanistan is yes, internet penetration is very, very small, but still it is connected with the outside world. The Afghan diaspora in the west and across the world is far bigger than than we had in the 90s. The power is there by power, I mean that you know, they have the political, social, socio economic powers in in outside the country that they are. And also there are initiatives by Afghans themselves, to come up with solutions. Be those initiatives in the form of online schools and underground schools in the country that are happening that I'm aware of. People are busy working on that, but also there is an there is there is work from the international community as well to find a solution to the problem. But I would say that one of the one of the advice I would give them is Do not waste your time. Just find anything whatever that is. If it is a book club, or you coming together to do your homework at home, just do it. Because the time that you have right now is far more precious and important and don't lose that. I'm not I don't think this situation would continue forever. There will be a solution but this time is really really important. And just use that in whatever way you can to better yourself. So once this situation is ready or once the country is ready, according to the Taliban, then you would not be left completely behind. But there is hope I would say it's not completely helpless.

Thank you. And again, just staying on this issue of how to support women and women journalism Shapiro. from Bangladesh to to ask your question that

I basically want to ask you what you think the future will look like for female journalism, eventful and are there any processes or systems being put into place?

On the part of the international community to kind of give them the protection

or the safe spaces that they need?

I'm not aware of so organized, top down efforts at the moment from the international community, but I do know organizations who are trying to help in their individual capacity. There are some organizations who are trying to come up with a plan to perhaps create a hub for journalists in exile. We have been journalists in exile. So they can tell the stories of Afghanistan, but also have a home and a space where they can share ideas and their work and their projects. There are some other German initiatives that are trying to help or fund journalists. We're still inside Afghanistan, but those are small scale efforts. But I would say is that it has only been five months and I think, to be fair, it's five months is not enough for for people to come up with some sort of a long term plan. So if there are if there are initiatives if there are plans, and they're yet to be announced, but I think we can we can do something on the international stage that we haven't yet done. And I'm hoping there will be more news about that in the coming months once we know more because at the moment the focus is on the humanitarian situation because the country is suffering from a severe humanitarian catastrophes, because more than 20 million people are said to be on the verge of starvation. And all the effort at the moment all the attention is on how to avoid that because the majority of those victims are going to be women and children's. So that's the focus of the moment, but we will probably see initiatives in the future about how to help journalism and journalists

and detection of what's happening on the ground. In Afghanistan. How easy Are you fine? Are you finding it from abroad to get a sense of what's happening on the ground? And in a way How sustainable is is it you know, because what you're talking about really as much of the journalism is going to have to be done by journalists in exile because it's just simply not feasible for them to do it from from from from Afghanistan, but at some point that the connection can be very strong at the beginning, but as time and distance grow, the connection grows weaker as well. I'd be really interested to know how you kind of navigate this and what your thoughts are.

Yeah, at the moment I could see the difference in my on my groups. So we had I'm part of several groups that have between 202 150 people on each one. They are human rights groups, women, my journalists and other people who are active in different parts. of the country. And I've seen that they've gone quiet in since the takeover. And they used to be very active, but now things have died down. And that is again, I would say because most people can't afford to have the data, the internet data to be connected and that is a problem. Some people are switching everything off because of the fee and they don't want to be found out they don't want to be communicating with people outside. They don't want to be saying something that would get them into trouble. And on the journalism aspect of people, obviously organizations are shut and there is no money and there is no in that sense. It's hard for people to be connected and be active. So it's very hard to do journalism. And most of the much of the journalism that I've seen, it's done via private networks. What I mean by that is yes, I'm part of this group of 230 women and if there is a story that I'm really interested then I will call them personally or message them because I know them those are my contacts. It's not because something is available so that that requires you to do the extra work. And then you have to take give them the time because some people do not want to speak to you or there's worry there is fear and some of other the other aspect of the Journalism at the moment is the the videos that were coming out the citizen journalists who are just recording videos of either atrocities being committed or human rights abuses being committed by different actors, but mostly leads the Taliban are blamed. And that is what is circulating on social media a lot these days. And then once they come out then the international the international media pay attention and other media, who is based outside the country, they pay attention and cover those stories. But most of Yeah, everything is done on I would say networks, individual networks at the moment because there is no big scale. news gathering operation that you might expect in a different scenarios.

And this presumably then leads to confusion potential misinformation, as well if it's being done through these private networks with videos without the can't always be sourced.

Absolutely verification is a huge problem. In regards to these videos that are being circulated because the videos of these atrocities are not just from Afghanistan. So you may come across videos that were recorded in Syria videos and pictures, recorded in other conflict zones and now people are saying that oh, this is Afghanistan. And the verification of that takes time because you have to find the right people. You have to make sure that you don't you're not putting anybody in danger. But also ask the Taliban for a response as well. And yes, the Taliban are very, very media savvy. But when it comes to the verification of videos and social media, user generated content, they do take their time, and sometimes it's not easy to reach them for a response. Let me a little bit more of what you

mean by a media savvy in this case, is it that they're willing to speak to journalists or they're willing to put out their own information or does it mean

well, for the past 20 years, there was a saying actually that the Afghan government was so slow that as soon as you asked the Taliban for something, they would send you a message on WhatsApp or just send you a reply or send you a statement but the Afghan government took hours and even days sometimes to get back to you on on a matter. The Taliban. What they done is that they understood fairly early, how to manipulate the message and how to really get across your message. Even to this day, the spokes people they're very onpoint they're very sent. They want to tell you exactly when they want to tell you rather than give you what you want. They have always been that way. And they have communication in several languages. Not just Pashto and Dari that are the official languages of the countries. So they have English, Urdu and I think they have Arabic and some other languages as well. Their social media. Users are very active on social media when there is something that is seen as anti Taliban by their followers, they would storm in that thread or that conversation and really debate the issues. They also have I wouldn't say supporter but they also have individuals who would be seen as not apologist but but individuals who argue a case that could be interpreted as Oh, that's quite pro Taliban all that so that's quite Pro. In the past it would have it would have been considered as Oh, that's quite poor Taliban. But now that you know that they're part of the government they they know how to use media and how to get their message across.

Thank you. I'm going to go back into the room to Mirage who is from Kashmir and as huge amount of experiencing again, reporting from a very dysfunctional state morality and ask your first question actually about kind of who gets to tell the story, these instances because it kind of follows on from what you've been speaking about.

Oh, hi. So, I was listening to the documentary and you get some details of your child or your family and the sensei gate please correct me if I'm mistaken sensei that is that you come from what one might describe as the traditional delete from limestone all been politically well educated liberal. And because of that, do you get criticism but because of that, position you have in society, you are speaking on behalf of the masses, whose worldview who's interested in not aligned with yours? Do you get such criticism? What do you make of it and how do you do?

That's a good question and but I would correct you on just one point. Afghanistan is yes, it's a very, it's very diverse, and it has layers of of people. It's not class based society. Some would describe it as tribal but I disagree with that. It's not tribal in that sense, either. But they're they're all there are differences. Some are urban, some are rules. But if you go by the statistics, then 70% of the population is is urban, rural. They still live it live in the countryside. 30% of the population is urban. And then again, educational opportunities were bigger and more in city centers than they were. I would slightly dispute my background. But yes, I agree with you. That I've the fam the family that I came from they they were educated, they were they were not I wouldn't describe them as rich in that sense, but they were. They were modest. They came from this I mean to this day, I have family both in the center in the in urban centers, but also rural, I would say far more of them are living in the countryside. They have they've always done and I think the the way, things work in Afghanistan because there is no social security structure. People tend to live in their ancestral environments in their own ancestral homes because if something were to go wrong, then you have some somewhere you have a base and that base provides for you in terms of food and shelter and community and safety, safety in numbers. So that has that is still the case. I would say I was I was aware of the fact that I might be criticized for why I get to speak a story of Afghanistan and why I get to tell it, but I I would say that I've tried to be as fair as I can be. And I don't claim that I am talking on behalf of the Afghan population. I haven't said that. I have made it perfectly clear that this is my personal story, but it is one that is shared by many Afghans. And that is the feedback I get as well. I have this guy who after listening to the documentary he said, you know every time I hear an Afghan woman talk about her story, in code, and he was he was having an attitude as well. Her story I get really offended because they say things that are tailored to a particular audience in the west or in some parts of the world. And they frame Afghanistan as if it is this woman beating women hating backward primitive culture. Where, you know, women are just seen as a second second class citizen but when I listened to your story, I came away feeling that that was very fair. It was yes, you were had gone through a lot and I'm sorry, but also, I know so many other people who were in similar situation. As you described. So I didn't I didn't receive criticism. No, it was far more positive. And I was surprised, but then I knew that it would be positive because I actively made that effort to make sure that it is the outcome. Is what would be a realistic picture in the country and and that comes from speaking to lots of people and also having a very diverse flow of informations. So yeah, you you have both sides of the story. In that documentary. You have the elite, but you also have the rural I talked about, or maybe I haven't talked about my cousin, who was shot by American soldiers and his mother lives in the countryside. The same I probably haven't talked about my other cousins who live in Helmand and to this day, they have always lived in Hillman and when one of the the districts that called Marsha Marsha was one of the most volatile districts where, you know, 1000s of US Marines were based and to this day, and my cousins are there and so I don't know if that answers your question, but I hope it does.

It absolutely does. Thank you very much. Yeah, no, thank you. And I said at the beginning and again, I'll say it again at the end, close to the end, but you know, your courage and resilience and reporting this subject that's both close to home and of global importance is is really an extraordinary. And I know one of the fellows had this question, I'm just going to ask it myself. What support Have you had from the BBC? During this process, because you've been you've been with them a long time. But again, you've really made yourself vulnerable in many ways. In the last in the last year, and I was wondering if you've had support from your colleagues from the newsroom over this.

The BBC has a range of support available for staff. In my case, I was I don't know why, but I never shared. Anything that was personal was colleagues. Most of my close colleagues probably didn't know most of what I described in the documentary. And, again, I grew up in Afghanistan is a very, very tough place. It's I when I was growing up, my mother was would always say something like, if you think something is wrong, go and fix it. Don't complain. And that is the attitude I've carried. So it's, I don't I wouldn't I wouldn't say that the BBC didn't do this or that. No, the BBC has procedures in place for people who need it and who want it. Had I asked for it I would have received as well. Not that I haven't, but I didn't feel the need that I was that I need to ask for help if that makes sense. But if there is if I will do then yes, they do have procedures, they do have help available.

And keep Thank you. Can I am Can I kind of pull back out to the bigger picture and especially the reporting from Afghanistan in the last year. Again, the international community's reporting it was it seemed to be presented is such a shock. The last days of the Afghan administration, it took everyone by surprise and journalists are not responsible for political analysts all political analysis and the information that the White House and various Prime Ministers receive but what what went so wrong and you know, and from a media perspective, what you know, how did the story get missed for so long?

depends who you ask, if you ask Afghans and particularly Afghan journalist and activist and those who are involved in the society, they would say, we are not shocked. We were not shocked. We knew that the trajectory of things were being in the wrong direction. And there was a clear effort by the international community mainly the US to withdraw. They made a deal with the Taliban in Doha in 2020. They named it the peace deal, but it was clear from the way it was done. That it was a withdrawal agreement. It was a retreat rather than a peace agreement. That's what the Athens battalion. It was clear, and nobody's shocked. And also the way things work is that if you the Afghan security forces were reliant on the international support their international aid support, but also ground support before 2014 Or the operations were. The responsibility of the security was heavily on the shoulders of NATO forces after 2014 after the security handover to the Afghans. It went to the Afghans, but they still relied on international support for airstrikes and other things. But once the deal was made it their work. There were mentions of the die but that support would go away from the Afghan forces, which it did. But also, if you again, the Afghans will tell you mostly the supporters of the previous regime or the previous government, they will tell you that if you have meetings with the Taliban almost on a weekly basis in Doha, and you treat them like a government in waiting, then why do you why would you expect the soldiers to fight for you or to fight for anybody? Why would they fight even if the Taliban were coming? In? You have effectively handed over the country to them. That's what they say. And that's what happened when when the day came came. The Taliban went from district to district there were some resistance but in others because the news traveled fast the others people thought that there was no point. So then everything just there was a transition of power, so to speak, rather than an active fight in many places, and that's what happened. And then analysts again, if you speak to analysts, they would tell you that and look at the look at the timelines of the Afghan war, or the the US led war in Afghanistan from 2001 to 2021. Look at the question the civilian casualty figures, the security figures, the security casualty figures, as well as what was happening in society in terms of, you know, the social, the social and political issues, the crimes, the power, the poverty, the civilian casualties. They were all pointing to a situation that was impossible. too, it was it was seen that there was no other solution by the international community because, you know, the, the civilian casualty figure was really high. And people were dying in massive numbers and there was a fatigue as well, even to this day. You may have noticed this you may have felt it, there is an international fatigue, there is a war fatigue, there is a fatigue. And most of those things were seen to be impossible to sustain so local Afghans who were really involved in the day to day of things, they were not surprised by it. On the international stage, yes. There were individuals who said we were shocked by the fact that this would fell to the Taliban so quickly.

They hadn't been watching closely. I mean, again, with the power of hindsight, you're the first person to interview roulette funny. What is your reaction when you saw how things ended? What was your reaction and were you disappointed by the actions? And you know, what do you think about the interview when you look back at it?

Yeah. The interview with the previous first lady who logged on he was done in 2014, because that's when I stopped by and he took over as the president in the first severe limit civilian and peaceful transfer of power. It was seen, and it was a hopeful moment for many Afghans. Certainly what from what I was following on social media and from the people that I was speaking to, is very helpful. Rula Ghani was Lebanese you know, she came from Lebanon. She lived in Paris in the US. She was educated she was visible she was actively participating in events in when she began first lady. She was not like the invisible for first lady that Afghans were after, after President ajibola became accustomed to so there were a lot of hopes for her. And she did do things that were at least for her, her supporters were things that no any no other first lady did. So she brought in a group of strong, assertive independent women and she promoted them she helped them she had them around her. But for hers, opponents for those who opposed the the president and the way he was working, and the inner workings of the palace presidential palace, they said they say that it was, you know, a lady who considered herself as the Queen of the court, so to speak, and she only gave opportunities to those who were the Yes madam. Yes, sir. type people who would do her work for her surgery she she was. She became slightly polarized after the 2014 election. Initially, there was hope but after that, things changed. Personally, I don't I don't, I was there for the interview. And then I came back I don't have anything to say about that. But from what I'm hearing from her supporters and her opponents, she became a controversial figure in the at the later stages of, of the presidency. But some of some of our supporters do say that it's unfair to put the responsibility of such a huge country and such a complex story on one individual. She was at the end of the day, she was a foreigner. She had married this guy and she came to this country and she was trying her best to change things, but it didn't turn out to be the way that most people wanted. That is, according to her supporters, but for for people who didn't like her or her husband, she was seen as just yet another woman who was taking projects or using Afghan women to get projects and further her interest.

It has so many parallels with First Lady's in so many parts of the world, and thank you that's why I asked just one last question, which is really a sad question. And again, going back to the point you were making about the struggles of Afghan journalists and the fact that most Afghan journalists have to have to now report from abroad and we've already seen this with journalists from Yemen and Syria and sadly, now, Hong Kong. Gideon, do you want to ask your question there? Gideon is from Ghana but I think speaking for quite locked the group. Yeah.

Yeah. So my question is for China's particularly in Hong Kong, and also in other places who are going through very difficult times, you have reported on Afghanistan remotely for a number of years. What probably advice do you have for such journalists who are forced to go into Aisa? Yeah, it's

an remote for more journalism is not really the same as being on the ground and and seeing everything with your own eyes and being part of what is happening. I don't think it's an ideal situation for most journalists, most journalists would want to be in the story in the moment to see it to feel it to hear but if it's impossible to do that, then remote journalism can provide that backup, so to speak, where you you are able to do to do the work you want to do, but you have to really build relationships with people, because journalism is not the work of one individual. Like most jobs, journalism is teamwork. And more than that, it is it is based on what your contributors bring to you. Rather than what we produce, right. It's, it's, it's about the raw material that they you need to have. And for that you need to have relationships with with all sides of the story, I think. Try and not limit yourself in the work that you do in the relationships that you keep, try and check your biases as well, because sometimes it's our own biases that stops us from from really developing those relationships that really that is great for for having a great story. We're telling a great story. So if you are doing remote journalism, then then build relationships, build contacts, and and be there for you for for your people. And those who you know, the contributors, the contact and the people that you rely on. At the end of the day. It's it's a two way street. Give them credit where it's due appreciate their work. Where you can and try and recognize what they would they bring Qi

Sana, thank you so much. We're going back to time but I again want to thank you for coming and spending this hour with us and I do recommend everyone listens to your documentary, which is incredibly powerful. And brilliant, brilliant, insightful snapshot of what's happening in Afghanistan and what's likely to kind of play out there. Thank you also for the journalist fellows for your questions. And this is their first seminar for many of them and thank you everyone for who attended as well. And we'll be back next week at the same time. But in the meantime, son, thank you again for your time.

Thank you Meera, thank you for having me. Great. To see you.

Thank you. Thank you