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534: The Legacy Lives On with Robert Blaser of Michael Graves | Otter.ai

534: The Legacy Lives On with Robert Blaser of Michael Graves

Enoch Sears58min

Speaker 1

00:00

It is important to us that we're not out there just doing free ideation work.

Rion Willard

00:04

Hello and welcome to the Business of Architecture. I'm your host Ryan Willard and today I have the great pleasure of speaking with Robert Blaser, AIA who serves as principal and design practice leader at Michael Graves architecture and design. His expertise lies in the art of placemaking a pursuit which is very close to his heart, and with a fervent dedication to crafting user experiences, whether this is going to be in the realms of hospitality, entertainment, wellness, or the Civic domain. Roberts creative fervor is boundless. He's an exemplar of imaginative collaboration. And he brings together a mosaic of stakeholders and owners, developers, operators and fellow designers. And he has the ability to infuse each project of narrative that resonates deeply with its context. His personal ethos holds that the user experience is an all encompassing, spanning the grandeur of large scale planning, down to the most intimate nuances of interior design. In a previous life, Robert worked as an aerospace engineer, prior to architecture, and he has a incredible ability to better really think big scale, and look at the possibilities of what a project could be. It was a real pleasure to speak with Robert and certainly to talk about the succession planning that's been happening at Michael Graves. Architecture, obviously, with the passing of Michael, and to understand how they've been nurturing leaders and talent, how they win work, and how they market themselves and whether they even still need to market themselves being such a well known brand, if you like, well known architecture firm around the world. And we talk a lot about the fine art of balancing the business side, the financial side with intelligent design and how to understand the business agendas of clients. So sit back, relax and enjoy. Robert Lazar, it's time to announce this month 200 club if you missed our episode on the 200 Club, listened to POA episode 485 To learn more about this new initiative for benchmarking small firm performance. So, a big congratulations to rad Hubbell Drew and Justin Tyndall, Mark Elster, Chris Brandon, Charles Graham areni Adams, Andrea nemecheck, Kimberly Doakes Lena bola, yo spend a Chris Rawlings Ryan Salas, Marina Robina, Sven Levine, Julie and Larry, April, David and Kristin where, and Yogesh mystery. Keep the good work up guys. This podcast is produced by Business of Architecture, our leading business consultancy for architects and design professionals. This episode is sponsored by Smart practice, business of architectures flagship program to help you structure your firm for freedom, fulfillment, and financial profit. If you want access for our free training on how to do this, please visit smart practice method.com. Or if you want to speak directly to one of our advisors about how we might be able to help you please follow the link in the information. Robert, welcome to the Business of Architecture, how are you?

Unknown Speaker

03:39

Fine, thank you. It's great to see you again.

Rion Willard

03:43

Absolute pleasure to be speaking with you very excited to talk with you as you are the principal and design leader of one of the one of the one of the kind of starchitect practices here on the east coast of the of the US at the legendary Michael Michael Graves, I know that you've you've you've been at the practice for a very long time. And of course, the practice has got an incredible legacy of, you know, magnificent architectural work and in quite a vast array of different, you know, different sector types. And obviously, the the academic work and the thought work. And so you're very interesting to be speaking with you and to have you on the show. And to hear a little bit about your career. So perhaps we could talk about that. First of all, just to give us a little bit of an outline of how did you become into the position that you're in now. Okay,

Speaker 1

04:42

well, it's been quite a journey. And the journey didn't even begin with architecture. I really, I began as an engineer in aerospace engineering for a number of years. Five years with General Electric Venter and Martin Marietta Filling satellites, I love the nature of the work I did, but I had the design bug, or real itch. And actually, you know, going prior and really toyed with the idea of going to graphic design school, I sort of chose that I thought might be, you know, more profitable or, or you smarter approach at the time, but then, but as this, I couldn't shake that edge and I really started to explore architecture and I came to the architectural profession with a greater maturity. So I was really excited about it. So, so I did I research schools, I went to the University of Maryland and I got my, my MRI, and then landed a job with Michael Graves, who was just such a humanist architect that I really felt like my, you know, he connected with my soul in many ways, just in terms of, you know, if I was doing things before that were very aspirational. You know, in, in the aerospace world, I really wanted to do something that was a little more grounded, that connected with, with humanity, and that was more artful and really got to embrace my creative talents. So, again, you know, really loving the work of this firm and interacting with Michael, I came here, and I've been here for 26 years, and, you know, the evolution of the firm has been incredible, you know, the, kind of got in sort of, in the real heyday of, of Michael, and really what were the, you know, was just a household name, not only in the architectural community, but across all different scales, from product design, to, to interiors, to branding. And just because the way you connected with, with, with people, and so I really enjoyed that, and then we've evolved over time to do just a number of different things. And we're really on course, for it's kind of a new adventure post Michael, very much in the wake of everything that Michael was about, by by connecting with different acquisitions in this growth mode, I think it's really interesting to invite other parties, and, and bring in that diversity of thought to what we had been, you know, been doing all along, and that kind of camaraderie, or that you some of these new visions, and exploring that, I think, is a great launching point for sort of, you know, Michael Graves to point out,

Rion Willard

07:37

how did you start preparing for the kind of sixth session, if you like, I mean, this is one of the challenge for lots of architectural practices when you've had such a prolific or renown. I mean, the the brand, if you like them in the business still carries the name. And then when there's the departure of that kind of figurehead, how does the business? How does the business plan for that? Because obviously, you know, it's going to happen, at some point, and I'm assuming it wasn't, you know, nothing's happened by surprise, or very suddenly, that there was a kind of plan in place.

Speaker 1

08:15

That really is, you know, how do you plan it? It's a great question. It was thrust upon us, in many ways, because Michael, you know, 13 years prior to his passing, was paralyzed. Right? So yeah, he had that condition, that eroded a portion of his spine, and obviously, incredibly life threatening. At the time, they didn't know if he was gonna get through the night. So in a way, that that scare or that because of that had, you know, we thought Michael would be the forever, we just didn't look at it any other way, naively. And so in a way, there was a little bit of preparation. And that's certainly changed the course of his career in many ways, because, you know, clearly, it wasn't going to be like anything you ever imagined. So that prep preparation was thrust upon us early. And at that time, I was a little more junior in the firm it so I wasn't, you know, get in touch with, you know, every nuance of it. But I did see that evolution, and then you start to look at, you know, how do you build a legacy firm? And what is that legacy of Michael, that we want to carry forward and some firms might consider their legacy stylistic are about language and, and they're just trying to continue that downstream of their founder. I don't see it that way. Michael, the way he connected with, with with people and the level of imagination that he brought to it, sort of defies wanting to keep any kind of stylistic legacy going and really, I think we want to keep that imagination, innovation going. So that's where, you know, in that vein, and is kind of how we're carrying the firm in that's, you know, a lot of what we do is the way we design experiences in the way we really craft architecture in the realm of human engagement

Rion Willard

10:13

in terms of how the office was, was structured, and after Michael kind of got got sick, did the internal workings of the business start to change, then and different people were starting to take in, in into leadership positions? How did the office start to shift itself internally? That's

Speaker 1

10:35

an interesting question, because, you know, look at there's multiple levels of succession, there's not only Michael but succession in that sort of second generation, Michael. So, so those are the older partners. You know, and how do we succeed beyond them. So I do think, you know, having been through that round of succession, and looking at bringing up some of the, the younger stars in the firm and creating partnerships there. So I think, looking toward that, sort of the grandchildren of Michael, in many ways, if you will, and and how they might push the farm or move the firm forward. And not only that, but also, we've have an interesting strategy that is helping with our succession with our president, Joe fury, not an architect, but he really looks at the business side of architecture and growth. So and how we led the firm into seeking acquisitions, to build different sectors to build strength. And very compatible firms that are very much embraced what we are who we are, in what we do, yet may have an expertise in a particular area and kind of get us that diversity of thought that they talked about, that they've looked at it or have had to tackle it, maybe for more of a, you know, pounding the pavement type of approach to, to, in relationship building, whereas we've always been in the legacy of starchitect. Taking those two approaches or visions, and merging them has really crafted something special. So I think, you know, the way we create that legacy as a bigger team, and with a broader palette, so to speak, I think is is is tremendous. And, you know, I I really love the opportunity. It's just phenomenally exciting.

Rion Willard

12:40

Let's just talk about a little bit because it is it's a it is quite a sophisticated operational structure organizational structure that, that you guys have got in the business you've got Joseph is the president and CEO, then you've got you've got two CEOs, is that right? You've been Ben is also.

Speaker 1

13:01

Right, then on the products side, on the

Rion Willard

13:05

product side, separately connected? Got it? Got it. Okay. And then. So then there's quite a large leadership team, and that even includes a CFO, partner as well, right? Yes, yes. Got it. Okay. And, and so how long had has that structure existed for? And what's the what's the scale of the practice? At the moment? How many people are you in total?

Speaker 1

13:32

Now we are around 150 seems to grow daily. So I'd have to fact check on that. But including all of the acquisitions, you know, if we call us sort of the patent office here in Princeton, we're about we have around 40 People here in Princeton, and we also have what I would call one of my partners is down in DC, but he's sort of of the Princeton Office of that patent office. So So together, we were around, around 40.

Rion Willard

14:08

Got it great. And how would you describe your role and also in comparison to say, the inter Josef's row role, for example?

Speaker 1

14:22

But will Joe very much think we're quite compatible? I think he's excited about growth about how do we target other sectors or build our strength? And I'm in this role, where more about brand and how do we, how do we craft how we design how we engage with with with clientele, so I'm sort of taking a lot of charge in the, in the messaging the legacy from a design component, where he's looking at it from more than the business and you know, broader sector we Your ship type of positioning, which is great, because it's free, it's liberating. You know, if I were tied or handcuffed by those constraints more, it would sort of take my eyes off the road for design. And, and, and likewise, if he had to get involved in the nuances of the day to day, you know, he wouldn't have his eyes on, and the bigger pieces and things like that. And it's compatible, like, the conversations we have are very interesting, because, you know, he sees where I may be going, and certainly the the other partner partners may be going with their successes, and how do we bolster that. So he's out there looking for ways to strengthen our positions and say, hospitality, now that we've really emerging on a broader scene with that, for example, or the school design, or you name it. So I think it's really the compatibility really laying almost a difference, the differences between us make us more complimentary.

Rion Willard

15:57

So you're able to maintain kind of direct involvement in projects and have your kind of guiding eye and expertise on them, and also kind of make sure that they're being delivered within the brand of the, or the derived design brand at the business. Whereas he's much more high, high level in terms of strategic like, here's where we're going to go after work. And when

Speaker 1

16:21

absolutely, I can deliver this seller do a role. Well, as opposed to just you know, that the sales rep where you're just on a roll, where you're just on the road trying to bring the work in, but then you're detached from it, I very much like the client engagement and really helping to capture their voice and share their stories. So I really have to be in a design role to deliver on that matter.

Rion Willard

16:47

Yeah, I think it's always interesting when I kind of talked to the slightly larger architectural practices, how they end up going structuring this leadership team, how decisions get made, the importance for a partner to have competencies in being able to win work, actually still be able to do work, and to be able to understand how to support the work, ie in terms of finance, and HR and processes and systems. Obviously, when we get to a practice of, of you guys's size, then you can obviously have partners who have more of a specialism in one of those core competencies. And it is still important, you know, to have architects involved in the leadership, because we can go very pure business, on a smaller business, for example, we're always trying to get people to get out of architecture, if you like to focus on the business, and to where the business and to where the business hat. So your career is really interesting, because you're still straddling both of those domains, and you're still able to be in the strategic side of the business, and also on the design side, right?

Speaker 1

17:58

Very much. I actually consider, you know, how we craft our premise is a design project in itself to find a lot of interest in how we may evolve, may can make our stock story part of the story of architecture in many ways.

Rion Willard

18:16

Yeah. And for you, how would you describe your main kind of responsibilities in the practice?

Speaker 1

18:26

I think, sort of my niche is really been involved in what I call creating experiential design. And, yeah, you know, you and I chatted about that earlier. But the, the idea of, you know, what are your differentiators as a firm? Or what are even what are our differentiators studio at the studio within our firm, and so in terms of how we might work from, from one group to another, so really, what I've been trying to craft is is, you know, keying off the multi faceted design approach that this firm has always had, and inviting even non architects to the equation when when we're trying to, you know, create a project to bond with a client. So you know, we've got, I've started to leverage, you know, our graphic design and branding people, with a visual artists with interior designers and architects alike. And I do it across generations. So I like the idea of bringing diversity of thought generationally as well. Among all the other different different nuances and things like that, that can really breed an innovation. So I think, really creating this. This predesign effort about storytelling and about crafting experiences, is really kind of a selling point or a point of departure or differentiation. For myself, that I see is part of my personality, but also something that's really been resonating out outside night, you know, often I'm consulted, you know, across all different, different acquisitions, to sort of maybe pitch in and craft some of that storytelling, some of that experiential design into some of these other sectors that may have approached it more from the framework of got a tight schedule, you got to start right away. And, and, and begin delivery here. And I kind of my approach is a little bit about, you know, taking a step back looking at this pre design effort and really developing the bond and, and really talk about not just what are we doing here, but why are we doing it and, and trying to, you know, bring that essence to design, that's a lot of where I'm kind of building a little bit of popularity, you might, you might say both within and, you know, in the client realm. And so that's sort of the approach I've had with a lot of success lately. It's been actually an exciting path.

Rion Willard

21:10

Amazing. It could tell us a little bit about some of the acquisitions that you guys have made, and how do they come about? How do you identify which businesses to acquire? Why is why was that considered a, you know, a kind of a good way of growing the practice, versus the more traditional architectural ways of growing a practice, if you like? There's a lot of risk involved in in in doing that. It's also there's a lot of reward.

Speaker 1

21:41

There, there, there is risk, and I think, you know, and Joe would be the one to talk to about the certain metrics out there, and that broader business plan from a financial success perspective. But, you know, we look for people who are firms that are very compatible that we bond with, so a lot of the approaches is meeting with everyone, and they're gonna have, you know, concerns on their side, we're gonna have concerns on our side, how do we bond? How do we complement one another? I love it. Those are the conversations that I love to be, you know, centered on I just think, you know, that bond is key. And I do think, you know, a lot of them right. Off the bat worry about, do they have to drink the Kool Aid? And, you know, are we, you know, are we going to impose post modernism on the design palette or anything like that that may have been, you know, the language of, you know, Michaels paydays, so to speak, you know, it's very, it's very much a retinal burn in terms of what that is, because people studied it in school, particularly when you're talking about firm partners, they're of that age that new Michael, Michael sport, I should say. So, you know, are they getting steamrolled or anything like that from design? And I say just the opposite? It's really what we're trying to do is we're an innovative firm we're trying to bring bring you in as a different culture. How does that culture even disrupt what we do, in many ways is as long as it disrupts in a complimentary way, that helps us create better design. So that so I look for that. And that's level of engagement. I think, you know, other practical scenarios are, you know, how strong are they in a particular sector? And how much work do we see coming our way? And in that sector, and how do we strengthen that? So that's a, you know, on the practical side is how we crafting this, you know, we don't want just because we fall in love with many who work in a particular realm. Do we want to be lopsided in that way? We really a lot of this is a balancing act. And we've had great success success beyond what I could have imagined. Because I think we give each other a new tool in our toolkit.

Rion Willard

24:11

I can imagine it being, you know, from the from the firm being acquired, like you just highlighted the kind of concerns that they might have about it being a cultural fit, and we're going to be imposed on and then also from your side, you know, the worries of like, well, we're acquiring this business for they've got certain sector expertise, perhaps, or they've got a whole load of talent that's been identified or perhaps has been a relationship with the partners previously, or is it? How do you how do you test this first before making the acquisition? Is it A, is there a dating period that happens? Are there collaborations that happen first, or how long does it take?

Speaker 1

24:56

You There have been times we sort of, yes, there has been like a dating period. or maybe, you know, we're in conversation, we see some compatibility and maybe we go, you know, look into a project together and start to work together, I think, you know, that's, we look for those opportunities, we're sort of engaged with people right now that could very much be of assistance to us. So maybe we have that dating period, if you will. But more so it you know, the day in a period is, is really about design conversations. And, you know, the fun conversations, in many respects is to try and extract from each other. What are your philosophies? Are we, you know, do we complement each other? Or are we district or even just for being good as a disruption? But don't we just Britain compatible way?

Rion Willard

25:47

got it got it. In terms of the sorts of businesses that this this has happened with? How have they typically been identified?

Speaker 1

26:01

Again, Joe, he goes out there, like some businesses are sort of shopping for their success succession. And so Joe discovers these, what often happens is he'll he'll discover maybe a firm firm knows a firm who's interested in the same thing. So, you know, a conversation with one may lead to a conversation with another. So that often happens, I think, you know, we. So oftentimes, we identify, example is, you know, we're having a lot of success with some of our International Hospitality work. And we are really sensing that there's going to be a high demand for this and big volume. Saudi Arabian work at and in other locations. So, you know, we might target firm with a lot of strength and in hospitality who can assist us, you know, at least because, you know, while we've lived in concept and ideation mode, we're going to have to live in delivery mode as well. And we're, we have strengthen that, but I think, how do we make ourselves stronger to even scale better? So the opportunities are really scale in areas where we're very talented, is comforting, and it's grace, I do think, you know, targeting long, that perspective is something we do.

Rion Willard

27:33

How do you guys typically win work these days? And how was that? How was? How have you seen that changed in your career?

Speaker 1

27:42

You know, I guess once upon a time for Michael Saunders. Right. You know, and, you know, that's a lovely way to do business development, as opposed to taking Take, take what you want. And so it's it's very different approach now is more about relationship building. And if a first step made us nervous, I've actually grown to love that, because I think, if you do it via relationship building, you've you're already one step into the process. If you know, you can bond with a particular client, because you have via repeat work, you know, you know, what you wrote is in front of you, I think that's great. I do think what's interesting with the acquisitions, again, because they've had to develop business in a very different way. And so I do think, you know, their talent, and their talent is very much in relationship relationship building. So I think what, what I've learned, what we as a firm, have garnered from, from these acquisitions have really helped us tackle it in that manner. But again, it's not, you know, I do think, you know, there's, there's still an element of name recognition brand, does get the phone to ring or create those opportunities. But, but without Michael, it's not push button automatic. So it really is, you know, we have to, you know, bond and, and it's still connect, I do think, you know, the other the other sort of strategy I have, personally in doing this is, is when we go out and we we try to capture this work is how do we do it beyond just handing stock qualifications? Right. So, I think it's, how do we storyboard it, and message, message it specifically to them without necessarily having to work on a building, or always, you know, solve every nuance of their project? You know, what are they looking to do and how can we capture the essence of that in in our pitch in unique ways. I think that's also been sort of a Have a model that I've approached creatively, I think in terms of how we storyboard who we are not just the what we are, do

Rion Willard

30:11

you go to develop relationships before the clients need projects? Or is it more you know, you're waiting for an RFP, or you're waiting for a competition entry, or you're waiting for some someone to be asking for architects to put ideas forward, or you're much more proactive. And in those relationships, actually, like, you know, identifying sectors or, or captains of industry that you want to work with, and start to understand what their pain points or their problems are. And then, and then kind of start being more creative, if you like, with the types of architectural consulting packages or services that you might be able to kind of offer before they even know that they need a project yet.

Speaker 1

30:58

Well, that is interesting, too. I think, you know, a couple of ways. I do know, again, with the acquisitions, they're very good at sort of the preemptive strike, if you will, you know, they knowing people and getting out there and trying to find opportunity in that manner. We still have some luxury of It's simply about relationship building, but, but it sort of breeds other RFPs, and things like that, that come our way that we can respond to, but it's a little bit of a. So there's some courtship doesn't happen. It can happen before you know, the project? Or are you making a suggestion that may breed a new opportunity? So interesting question, I oftentimes, you know, I can give an example I think might be a good way to is, is because of a relationship we built with a friend's out and in neon, they hired us to be a custodian, or sort of stewardship for their hospitality. So we've reviewed a lot of their hospitality, designs and things like that as a third party. But in that, and by doing that, we've developed friendships and relationships, that we see how we think that have given them ideas to craft things, maybe in a different manner. And those opportunities come our way, because we've already had that dialogue. So in doing so, we're helping them create opportunities, and often we're first in line to receive those opportunities. So I think that's an interesting approach. So you know, more of a consultant role approach can really generate a lot of work. So I do enjoy that. But again, that's from the perspective of relationship building. So we can do it more preemptively. Or, you know, or even in a tandem process, I think that's, that's probably important, because they don't always, particularly my side, they don't always know exactly what they want to do. In other words, if you're trying to design an experience or sort of craft their Why is often what I say why they do what they do. And all of a sudden, you you're taking what was a smaller effort or something like that. And it's growing, because you've found opportunity that they didn't know they

Rion Willard

33:35

got it. And then it's talked about neon from a moment of obviously, this has been a very highly publicized kind of endeavor around the around the world and also mean the complexity of it. And the fact that there's hundreds of other architects working on this project. How has this project been in how long has it been in the office for how are you finding working alongside all these other other architects? Is it going to happen, what you're allowed to say about it?

Speaker 1

34:06

I'm allowed to say very little other than that, that we've been involved, at least, I know I am in certain instances, and I got to tread on that lightly in terms of any detail. But but we have been involved for some time since 2020. And it's just that it's so highly innovative. Imagine that I think it plays well to my approach. And so I absolutely love it. I do think it's so engaging, and the best I can say is that it they really are taking charge and it really is feeling real. And maybe in many respects, I think what I can say is, if in 2021, we were sort of, you know, defying gravity and being highly conceptual, you know, floating buildings and things of that sort. It's gotten more grounded, they and that's a testament to the fact that there We're getting very real. I mean, they've got, you know, I have not been out there, we're working more intragenic in the the mountain site. But, you know, the cusp of of going out there, but it really is really getting heavily involved in infrastructure moves and things like that. So I like that aspect, because it's going to be starting to feel more real and tangible. How

Rion Willard

35:24

do you know when I used to work at rsap, Richard Rogers practice in London years ago. And one of the things that they used to have a problem with sometimes was being able to distinguish when a client was for real. So you'd often have people would see the brand of the practice, and they'd want to, you know, sometimes you have a very rich business person who wants to flex if you like, for want of a better word, and to kind of just play and have a starchitect, do some ideas. And that was that was that that could be very unproductive for the practice, because you could end up being led down a certain pathway where you're putting a lot of resource into a project that was never going to materialize. Have you guys had similar sorts of things? And how do you distinguish? Or how do you tell that if it's going to be a project, you're going to say no to or it's going to put it that you're going to, you know, go, you know, when do you exercise caution, because I could imagine something like neon, just the whole idea of you know, this, like, I don't know, if that was if there wasn't even that concept of it before you were approached, but you know, it's on such a vast scale that it can almost be, you know, certainly from in the from a UK or US perspective, we don't normally have things being built at that level at that pace, that it can almost see seem, is this real?

Speaker 1

36:43

Yeah. Well, there's definitely the element of is this real, and I'm probably the worst person that policing that process is about like, I get wrapped into it, I get so excited, I want to, I want to do it absolutely. And, and I look at it as it's an opportunity. Not only that is even if that particular project doesn't become real, it, elements of it, or what you learn from it, or what how you may be dealing with that you're allowed to have, how you may take some of those elements and bring them to something else. But it is understandable. But anything to do with anything highly conceptual, will have become brick and mortar. It's less likely, you know, certain initial project comes our way we know for sure that they're ready to build it. So in this case, you know, the hit rate on what actually gets built is lower than normal or can be. But you also don't look at it as necessarily the project being brick and mortar always, sometimes you're crafting their brand. Or you're you're trading something something exploratory that, that both they can use and you can use going forward. So I think there's more than just a beautiful paper project in these efforts. Because I see them, I see them not not only in other parts of the world, but even even here, we've got some great clients who are very high minded and looking for things that are very experiential. You know, even if it's concept level, it helps them sell a strategy or an idea. Because what we do, it's not an ode to Michael Graves to myself, or to even architecture, it's really, we're trying to craft who they are. So as part of my shtick in a way is how do we invite the client voice into what we into what we craft our brand, and that helps them maybe literally find investors or even brand themselves and, and, you know, or the possibility and that possibility may manifest in some other project entirely. But, but you sort of that thought process has a lot of value. So, you know, I am, I almost done nothing. But, you know, stuff, you know, I think, you know, if it's a paid effort, and you're really a partner, to these, these clients that are looking to do that, it's very much worthwhile. It just may never be photographed.

Rion Willard

39:17

Well, that's interesting, because you, you know, not closing the door too early and keeping an open mind about the, the reality of these kinds of projects and being able to entertain them and, and actually, you know, take them very seriously and, and get, you know, actually help them develop, how do you then ensure that you get paid for that kind of work because now we're dealing with a world where there's a lot less tangibles involved. You're trying to help the client develop a lot of unknowns. How do you as a business, price your services or even kind of start to conceive of how you're going to be approaching it and you know, avoid For example, spending months and months just getting lost in the design process, or is that actually that we want to be able to do that, and we're actually quite good at being able to structure a fee and a service that the client sees is very valuable.

Speaker 1

40:19

We will always structure a fee going into it. But buried within those days with some level of partnership and understanding that there are risks, I think, I think that does happen. And it can be hard if something doesn't make it deep enough into the investment realm or anything like that. But we it is important to us that, you know, we were not out there just doing free ideation work. And such, there's, we know what we bring to the table, and we know that that that value, even in crafting their brand is useful, even if it doesn't, again, manifest into that particular project. So, so we're looking to do that. But there is also that partnership and an understanding and that excitement and trying to really be part of who they are. So you know, you know, there's that understanding. So in effect, it's often they get, they get just a tremendous amount from us, in terms of effort within that how we package any kind of the structure there in the early phases, but yeah, it is, it is a challenge in the end. You know, it's one that you know, Joe and I chat about often, often is how do we craft these packages, you know, fairly amongst our clients and in federal ourselves?

Rion Willard

41:47

Yeah, I think it's interesting, actually, you're, you're very intelligently positioning it as well as being kind of service, which is helping develop another company's brand, and identity. And even if it doesn't realize into a actual completed project, that you as architects are developing brand and brand experience, I think that's actually a really quite enlightened way of viewing what you do as as architecture. How do you how do you talk about that within the office?

Speaker 1

42:22

Well, I think, well, interesting. I do think there's a word I throw out a lot, actually, internal to our office, and even with our clients is, is voice your voice. I, you know, I do that relative to my design staff, and we really designed a conversation. But I think, you know, saying that we're trying to tell their story we're trying to craft their voice is I'm answering the question well, is important to us to be something bigger than ourselves to be something bigger than just architectural language and expression. Right. So, you know, I'm enjoying that I think there's a need for that. So, yes, you know, how do we make them stronger? So sometimes, you know, I do say is, is we're not? How do I put this? We? How do we make them? It's like, a client isn't necessarily our product is necessarily the building, it's even the career or the messaging of that client. So it's, again, it's not the brick and mortar, it's is what are their pain points? What are they trying to develop? And how can we make that better? That's important to me, not only that, if you develop that bond, sometimes they call it sort of trying to help us in a love, love relationship with, with a client that, that we can go in and find other opportunities for them. And so I, I very much like to help them often I say, craft their why, and I've been I've had a number of sort of inspirations or people who, you know, like her or listen to a TED talk or what have you, that have inspired me and one is Simon Sinek and his sort of the Golden Circle that he talks about, and the importance of why versus what Yes, you know, so we're not just serving what they do. It's why they do it and I think if I can capture that or help them craft that and get my staff are really my call my staff, my partners to do the same. I think that's that's important to build upon who they are in a way that helps them expand.

Rion Willard

44:55

I love that I mean, that's, that's such a valuable business, invest Spin, if you like, is any kind of exercise, which is kind of strengthening the why and the purpose behind what you're what you're doing. And obviously, the architectural process is very kind of key to being able to drive that it's not just, you know, again, it kind of points towards a larger reason for what you're doing is, as architects, there's not just sort of lifeless vessels that are being designed, they are the things that are bringing the business to life, the things that are manifesting a philosophy of the why, or the existence of why that company has been founded in the first place, which which just as an exercise that stays on paper, for example, is still massively valuable. Very interesting, very interesting. In terms of how you guys, let's say, on a more practical note, maintain profitability or track money inside of the practice, and how, how is money profit spoken about internally? And how do you mix it with design culture?

Speaker 1

46:09

We've evolved to make that message more clear to staff. So it's really it's flown downstream, quite a bit in our office, I think, you know, years ago, it was kind of kept at the top. And not necessarily managed, well, like I said to you, if the phone kept ringing, we had a lot of work. It sort of just we were successful, organically without much effort. But now we we try to, you know, we get a lot more of our staff engaged in, you know, billables, and cost structure for particular project, what, what's available? How are we going to be efficient? How can we serve this client that may only have so much to invest, for example, and do and do it in the best way possible within that parameter. So I think a lot of it is really getting that message of floating that message to the to downstream to the rest of the staff, I think our acquisitions have often lived in that realm better, they've sort of had to, they didn't necessarily have the luxury of the, the heyday, so to speak, that Michael hats, so so they, they're very good at it, there's like one of those things where you want to be, it's how do you, you could do that to a point where it controls you know, paralyzes you in some ways, where, so I do think, you know, building flexibility in that, or, you know, making it more of an understanding than always necessarily, you know, I literally, you know, like prison bars to any political doing, I never wanted to become that. So. So how do you dose it, I think is a is a forever challenge. I think that's a conversation, you and I can have my partners and I can have for a long time. But it is important, it's understand, you know, it's the sustainability of what we do is dependent on how we are successful financially, as well as design time down, I

Rion Willard

48:21

assume that projects are kind of quite closely monitored in terms of, you know, what the budget plan is, and you have team members report back on with their timesheets, if you like. And then the CFO or CIO, the project managers themselves have got a close eye on, you know, what the burn rate is of the money going through the project? And then obviously, there's a kind of conversation of, okay, well, we're going to spend it, we're deliberately going to allow ourselves to spend more time on this part of the project to encourage design if you like. Right,

Speaker 1

48:56

and that's important, and I think that message has to be shared, so that everyone's in agreement, if you're going down the path where, okay, you know, we're going to allocate some of this to development in the sector or to for qualifications. But, you know, cautiously I think that, you know, because everyone has to be on board and has to mutually understand what that that effort is to be successful. And, you know, it can't be all of us doing that all the time. So and that's, that's an important so how do you have that flexibility? How do you distributed equitably? Across clients and sectors? How

Rion Willard

49:34

do you make decisions as a leadership team?

Speaker 1

49:40

Well, we meet frequently, and the cycle, sort of twofold it's what we do within sort of the width of the walls here and, and Princeton and sort of our extension in Washington, DC. And to make sure we're on the same page and And that's those are the very intimate conversations because we're very directly aligned. We also do that with relative to the acquisition, so maybe we'll quite frequently also, will, will be in touch with them to make sure that we're, you know, we are on the same page, so to speak, and that we're all setting ourselves up for success, you know, in my world is a little bit more about, you know, staff sharing and ideas and even bouncing ideas off of one another, or helping with, you know, business development efforts and proposals. But, you know, Joe and Shawn, our CFO are very, are more engaged and would answer the question differently, I think they're very much on, on top of that, to make sure that nobody is floundering, and they get the support they need to be successful financially. So we don't create, you know, black holes, you know, in the deepest rounds of our other of our other acquisitions and things like that. So, you know, definitely high touch involvement, I think on on their side.

Rion Willard

51:11

How do you identify the next generation of leaders, so you've, it's interesting, you've gone through about one kind of iteration or one phase of succession plan, it's kind of, you've got an experience that lots of businesses never have. Now, when you're looking forward for developing future talent and future leaders, what do you look for? What does that process look like?

Speaker 1

51:35

I think that's great, honestly, what we call future leaders or leaders already, and, like, you know, what I try to develop is, is, you know, while I've gotten to this point, in my career, where I could elect to, you know, live it up and have minions below me, it's really more about that the collective thoughts. So I really, I like to see leadership rise. And these, these design conversations come from all groups, I think, like, I like to call it like, very interested in sort of, you know, merging wisdom with disruption, if I can be the wisdom, I can be the conductor, and the, in a lot of this, and they emerge as leaders and design leaders, and bring that to the table. And I'm getting voices from, you know, you know, across gender across age across culture, that. So it's like, we lead together, but people will emerge and succeed that way. So I just, I think it's somewhat organic, in terms of how people take over, but when I when I, it's important for me to create that opportunity in that path. For that, and, and so it does happen, and I see it happening very quickly, you wonder, you know, you're like, Okay, you know, I've arrived, but that's not, that's not the end. This has to this has to continue to happen. And a story is only sustainable to the degree that other people carry forward.

Rion Willard

53:20

How does the business operate at the moment, in terms of of ownership? Are you looking at? Is it all kind of owned by the group of partners? Or is there you know, or was it? Was it more, you looking at distributing it across the rest of the team? How does that structure ownership structure work at the moment? And what do you see for the future?

Speaker 1

53:41

I think, you know, we're always entertaining ideas, you know, bring in partnerships and things like that. I know, Joe does, and maybe, you know, it is not just an immediate leap, in some cases that may be dosed dosages, I think so, but we have that structure that sort of, you know, Michael Grace proper, or the, you know, the Hubbard basically the Princeton slash DC office, and then the partnerships through acquisition and that's really better Joe, Joe conversation but the so I do think, you know, we're always entertaining unique or different. Well, how he structures them is gonna get explained that that better but it's kind of like eyes wide open, I think, you know, we get I mean, it even some of our partnerships are unique. Well, it's not just other architectural design firms. We did acquire parallax, which is does a lot of Revit leadership, a very tech company that can make us a leader in in that realm. So they have a unique structure in terms of how they support us as well as support firms which are There are other firms which are their clientele. So that's, that's unique. So, you know, a dodgy way of kind of saying that, you know, we keep our eyes wide open and terms of the nuances, so I think Joe would be able to answer that much better.

Rion Willard

55:17

And what are you hoping to see for the practice for the rest of the year for 2024?

Speaker 1

55:29

In the best of all possible ways. I, I feel it in many ways I see these opportunities coming, you know, not just, I mean, not just internationally, but even even within I think we've got some really interesting opportunities. You know, and maybe we grow exponentially, you know, this year, you know, I got to very high hopes, it's, I feel like we're, while we, we had this grand idea, we've crafted this idea of with experiential design, sort of, in my studio, it's getting legs, it's resonating with, with our clientele, you know, how we do this, how we are placemaking, creating not only the project, but how do we make their project a destination? You know, concepts like that, that are making this quite popular. So I do think I see a lot of growth in some very interesting areas that specifically hospitality, in my case, but, but across the firm, I think, in a number of different sectors, I think there's a lot of, of excitement, you know, we we enjoy each other to it, you know, the, the leaders and the other in the acquisitions. And even from the partners here, we really enjoyed the, the dialogue we have. And that's, I think, a blessing. So it's kind of a roll along for fundraising, I think.

Rion Willard

57:02

Amazing. Brilliant. Well, Robert, thank you so much for sharing your insights, your career path, and really showing us what's going on inside of the practice. Absolutely fascinating to hear how you guys have grown and how you're planning for the future. So thank you so much, Ryan, thank

Unknown Speaker

57:21

you so much. My pleasure. And that's a wrap.

Rion Willard

57:24

And one more thing. If you haven't already, please do head on over to iTunes or Spotify. And leave us a review. We'd love to read your name out here on the show. And we'd love to get your feedback. And we'd love to hear what it is that you'd like to see more of and what you love about the show already. This episode is sponsored by Smart practice, business of architectures flagship program to help you structure your firm for freedom, fulfillment, and financial profit. If you want access for our free training on how to do this, please visit smart practice method.com Or if you want to speak directly to one of our advisors about how we might be able to help you please follow the link in the information. The views expressed on this show by my guests do not represent those of the host and I make no representation, promise guarantee, pledge warranty, contract, bond or commitment except to help you the unstoppable

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