Journalism in Exile. Global Journalism Seminar with Louisa Esther Mugabo

11:30AM Jun 14, 2023

Speakers:

Caithlin Mercer

Keywords:

journalists

exile

journalism

question

challenges

media

journalistic

speak

burundi

eritrea

xr

professional journalists

audience

practical

highlight

newsrooms

louisa

work

stories

reporting

To the global journalism seminars. This is the briefing this week we delve into the world of exile journalism, where words transcend borders, and stories emerge from the shadows from countries like Myanmar, where journalists have been exiled for exposing military atrocities to Russia, where independent voices face repression, journalists find themselves forced to leave their homes in search of safety and freedom. So journalists play crucial role in shedding light on human rights abuses, corruption and political oppression through their resilient exile John The work is fraught challenges from navigating new languages and cultures to operating within the constraints of limited resources. Despite these obstacles, XO journalists continue to stand firm bridging borders with our words are reminding us of the power of journalism in demanding justice and preserving the truth. We asked our journalist fellows, have you ever had to report a territory or region you cannot access? 60%? Yes, we're joined by researcher Teresa St. Maccabi a PhD candidate a University College in Ireland. She studies the phenomenon of contemporary exile, through interviews with journalists exiled to East Africa and Latin America and will talk to us about some of her findings. That's the briefing. Let's begin.

Hello, everyone and welcome to the global journalism seminars. I'm Caitlin Mercer. And you're joining us on a fairly hectic day. Not only is this the penultimate talk in our series for the year, but it's also DNR law launch day. So it's really all systems go around here. But it's also a good day for us to put a spotlight on the extreme challenges being faced by journalists in 2023. We know from the DNR that journalists are facing increased criticism from governments and that criticism in some places extends the point of journalists being forced into exile by persecution by war and through targeted discrediting. To discuss this today we have several journalists fellows at this webinar, who have been exiled themselves as well as our guests Louisa estima GABA, who has been researching the phenomenon in East Africa and Latin America. Louisa is a PhD candidate at University College Cork, which is in Ireland, and has previously worked with Burundi and exile journalists in Rwanda and uses decolonial methods and theories in her work. This is going to be a really fascinating conversation. So thanks, Louisa, for joining us today and welcome.

Thank you so much for having me. And thank you to everybody who's attending the seminar. Because I believe it's a very important conversation to have. So thank you so much for this opportunity.

It really is an important conversation. I thought maybe we should start off with a little bit of contextualizing. So what brings you to this field of research specifically? What what what originally motivated your interest?

Yeah, that's a that's a very good question. So as you said, I'm writing or I'm researching contemporary echo journalism, from East Africa and Latin America for PhD. Now, this was the result of two twofold interest. One was personal I was very lucky five six years ago to meet some exile journalists from Burundi mainly Lila lived in Ronda and I just was very lucky to develop a personal friendship with them and to learn about their challenges and to realize that there is actually extremely little that I know but also extremely little that the role of nice and also very little interest, which then also insults in basically a total absence of structural support for journalists like that, which was a very stark contrast for me from what I thought it is. I always thought like extra journalists are always presented as those very, almost here like personas in the public discourse. But when it comes to the real life experience of being an exile as a journalist, there was a dominance of being abandoned by the international community. So there was a personal interest. So that just motivated me to really want to work. This ex sajama type of person saying that I've worked with them and then on them, and then that's developed into an academic interest. So I was really lucky that I could write my master thesis on the Iranian journalism produced from Rondon exile back in the time in 2020. but as I say, it was a master thesis. so it was very limited to to compare their practice to existing journalism theories. and eventually, I came to conclusion because I had to compare it to existing theories. in journalism that are, as we all know very restaurant dominated very normative second ideal for me. It was just not a very satisfying conclusion that I had to draw because the. or theories that are out there. And I was like, Yeah, but that's that's not a satisfying conclusion because I don't want to belittle their work. On the contrary, I want to shed a light on what's different form of journalism they do. So that's how I proceeded to do a PhD then and said, Okay, we need a new theory. Now, that's an ambitious project, but maybe I won't come up with a theory but at least with a more independent approach to really trying to create an understanding of what XR journalism is.

Yeah, I'm really glad the two things that I'm really glad you said there and I want to touch on both of them. But let's start with the first one. That that often this topic is, when it is spoken about publicly, it's spoken about in a very romanticized way. And that is a really big danger that has damaging consequences. So tell us a little bit more about what you mean when you say the romanticized image and what are the things we need to be careful of over romanticizing when we have this conversation?

So I think when we speak, mostly about it's not even with excellent journalist, it's always in the context of like press freedom defenders, and we have now seen generally good range based interventions about exile journalism through the Russian and Ukrainian situation. But whenever it's been spoken about, about the brave journalism did Russian journalists, for example, do know from exile, that it's, it's always linked to the political context. And it I don't want to say easy, but it's kind of easier for Western people right now. To kind of praise them because we have a very clear political stance. Where as me, for example, working on Burundi or Eritrea, and nobody really cares, nobody really knows what is happening there. So when you hear about journalists being an exile from them, it's still nice because there's still different press freedom, but there's no very public stance on the situation. So there's no there's no further interest in their work. But we still like to put them on a pedestal and say, Oh, they are so brave, but actually they know what they do. And now with the lack of awareness is much as extremely frustrating on a personal or emotional level. It translates into like, into what I've seen into basically a total absence of structural support, which starts at things such as like, how do journalists actually we get into exile? How they can? How can they continue? How can they even get equipment? Is their media gonna get registered? Because there is no interest and at the same time, once a year, there's a freedom event. It was like, oh, yeah, I noticed but one game you have to play. So let's put him here and he's gonna tell us and then everybody's gonna be shocked about the challenges that he had he's gonna speak about that but there's no structural response. Yeah, yeah.

I'm get I'm getting all worked up. To not get over. It do agree with you. Totally.

I have to ask.

The second point that you raised and you slightly addressed and this answer but why you then if you know i It's, it is good and right that we highlight the plight of exiled Russian and Ukrainian journalists. And it is problematic that that exile during the semi Anmar in Burundi and across Latin America don't get the same attention. But why do you feel why why are you a white German woman, the person to take on this research and what are some of the dangers of you taking on this research?

I'm really glad you asked me that because that's it's a complicated one and one that I try to be as transparent and self critical as possible. So it is a fact that I'm invested in research and researching a community more or communities and Pro that I am not a member of. So there is a danger of like stereotyping them or mis interpreting list experience that I as a German was like, not experienced exile is just something you can study as much as you want. You can study the condition of exile, but if you don't live for it, I would never claim that I understand what it is. Um, no, I Why me is. I think I had access I had I said I had friendships first. And then I had trust of days, people and I realized they were just really

we are being joined from the depths of the Black Forest today, so there might be some

conference herself. Sorry, and my back,

your back. And the last thing we heard was that you had developed friendships you would develop trusts and you were in the right place and therefore,

so it was a question of access as well and then instilled in me. Now that comes with a huge responsibility as well because I keep I keep telling them I'm just a PhD student. I won't change the world for you what maybe we can change. Maybe we can start craving a general understanding and I believe that I have a lot of privileges as a as a white restaurant researcher a lot of access to institutions such as Reuters Institute, such as university contests and even in journalism. I just have those privileges that I prefer to share rather than just exploiting to keep to myself. So so I'm trying to be as as self critical as I can. Yeah.

That's a really encouraging answer. Thank you for your transparency on that. I it's it's hard that we have to have that conversation. But I also think it's necessary to to set that platform at the start of this conversation that we know that these are the challenges

if I can just add one thing real quick. Also, one of the privileges that we cannot forget is like, of course, x. I don't always know that how to speak about experiences. But we're gonna talk about the challenges that they experience a short clip, those chat, that those challenges are so multi layered and so complex and all encompassing, and I do not have those challenges, right, which means I have the privilege of actually having the energy to invest into making people aware because a lot of the people that I speak to they don't have any energy nor time left to fight on that and now as well because they apply to things like this is a sense of privilege that I have that I that I want to try to share. Yeah.

Yeah. Good. All right. Well, you've set it up perfectly. Let's talk a little bit about your research design, the main challenges that journalists highlighted to you. I know you've got some slides prepared. So I'm going to just kind of fade into the background for a while and let you talk about that.

Thank you. I will just quickly put it on Yeah, I think it should be up in full screen right now. Yep.

Yeah, looking good.

Thank you. Um, so yeah, we we have now already said that there are so many challenges, and I have put them testing. I will just put them here as a slide in the background. We can't go into all the challenges, because excellence is just a condition that changes everything and every aspect of a professional and a personal life. Now, from a very theoretical academic point of view, or journalistic practical point of view, the main aspects of my research and of my interest was like how can you actually do journalism living in exile because it's one of the biggest gaps between how we understand journalism nowadays and how God was in exile is produced is it's not surprisingly, the access to the territory. There was also in the in the short video that was there. Normally, journalists are expected to be eyewitnesses to be on the grind to verify their own information. All of this falls apart. What's your next highlight? Because I think sorry, I should have clarified that in the beginning when when I speak about Exogen when I speak about journalism produced by journalists that are exiled from their home territory, but it will be on their home territory for audiences in the home territory. That presents a whole lot of practical journalistic challenges, such as there's just that access to information how do you verify information? Also, how can you be transparent that's another pillar in journalism. You have to be transparent, right? A big difference also between academic and journalistic work. In academia, it's very normal to anonymize all of your data in journalism. It's not because you need to gain the trust of your audience. You are transparent about your sources. About your work process about yourself. In Excel, you can't do either all of that or one of those things at least, you will never be able to do you have to anonymize your sources. Sometimes you have to stay anonymous yourself. And then of course, objectivity one of these very contested, very critical concept in journalism study. And in expectations towards journalists, we all have to be objective and neutral. Actually, the conversation is moving on how by the Western media who are not hiring as a journalist, because they say, well, but you're not objective because you're in exile. So that makes you an activist. Actually exactly what the whole government say as well. They label them as rebels or purchase or opposition to a major challenge in the public perception, but also in the personal life because I have a whole spectrum of answers. When I asked the journalist that I've worked with, are you an activist or are you a journalist? There's somebody who would tell me, the moment you go into the direction of activism, we find our profession, there's others who tell me why are you even asking me that? The moment I go into exile, I already have an activist that yes, so all of that is is complicating journalistic practice and then like base things such as just having equipment, and a physical newsroom, not all journalists on this country have go into the same other country into exile. The lack of a newsroom. structural issues are linked to Dad's information distribution audiences. Now I just said so journalism is targeted at the home audience, but audiences change due to that. Very many reasons. Like first of all, how can the home audience access to information access your exile media, like if we take the case of Eritrea, Eritrea is in blockade since 2001? There is no internet so how can you actually reach them or in Burundi Iranians are gonna be maybe even persecuted but like definitely in danger if it's found out that they listened to value in Zambia, which is next a radio station. So how do you actually reach them Internet penetration is very low as well. And then also, of course, because you are in exile, you start connecting with other people from your home country, in the diaspora. So somehow the diaspora turns into an audience as well. I'm very complex issue there. I don't think I really have to say much of a safety, safety just because you're an expert. You're not but that's the basic, the bottom line that I keep getting, and even if you are safe, your family back home is not or the sources that you speak to or not. Um, I think I will skip the organizational structures and talk about that later a little bit more. When we speak about the structure, a story that stuck with me, lack of funding, it's just something as he kept it casual. You just said you don't want to get too worked up. Well it's the same for me. It's been since 2018. I'm just like, there's there's a total lack of funding. There is nobody who wants to fund x i radio stations, the ones that do fund exile, sorry, I said radio stations because in Africa in East Africa, they mostly work in radio, but like XM media. There's no structural support. I keep repeating myself, but it's very important to actually let our thinking that there's no special support. I already spoke about not being duly recognized, and then I just leave them in the background, the other struggles that are related more to like the psychological burden, the practical life, struggles to actually be a migrant. And the main thing is to be a refugee. To get like to obtain legal status and all of those things. It's huge. It's all encompassing, and we cannot forget about these when we speak about the journalism that they produce because yes, it enhances the journalism. Yeah. I want to ask,

would you, would you would you stop sharing for one second, I want to focus in I know that you're not you're not a psychologist. This isn't psychologically focused work. But could you share a little bit about where you've highlighted the psychological burden? What journalists have told you about the psychological burden that comes with

XR journalism? I think I can highlight it in relation to like, how it also affects their work because this is basically what I would ask for. Guys, one journalist who tells me they have been in

hold for the lifetime you're back know what? I actually thought. I'm going to skip that question. Let's move on from it because we've got people downstairs who can talk to that. So let's let's let's wait until we bring them in. And instead go into a more practical angle on the story and ask you have had other solutions that you've found that that work for different individuals that could perhaps be applied.

So the sad reality is that echo journalism is not going to go away. It's going to become more and more the case for more and more journalists around the world that the obvious solution would be to have better press freedom and protection globally. But of course if we speak now about the practical aspects of journalists being an exile and disillusion there are there are several things that stuck out that I think would be good for anybody who is faced with a search. You know, one thing is, and that's not surprising for journalists and for the journalist fellow sitting there to really keep your network. Very, very tight like prioritize network network network inside the country. They direct contacts, contacts that you have verified for years, contacts that you trust, and also when they that that includes a network of contacts that are independent from each other because that's eventually going to be crucial for your safety and for the safety of your sources and, and the verification of your information that you obtained through your networks. That's that's the network inside the country. And then also and I think this is something that's maybe a little bit more positive because this talk is really hard to topic is not really there's not a lot of positive aspects. And I think prioritize networking amongst journalists, the International Journalism community as well because the good the successful stories that I've seen were, because our thanks to the support of the journalistic community in the Hudson country, Burundians were able to establish excellent media initially and one that thanks to the support of the one journalist Association, the Nicaraguan journalists who are currently in custody and exile. They they have huge collaborations with the Costa Rican journalists community, and then across Latin America, there is a huge support for get competition. And I think this is very important to keep paddling and wind not only an exercise on realism in journalism, generally we should focus more on collaboration than on competition but the owner. Training is and a lot of journalistic theaters very complex. All of the challenges that we just outlined a few of them. Most of the journalists to go into exile actually are also forced to leave their profession. There's there's a lot of reasons personal reasons practical reasons, political reasons.

motivate you broke up. Can I just confirm that you were saying most journalists forced into exile also forced to leave the profession?

Yeah, I do not have data. This is another very big struggle by the way, not only for my work, but also for the general awareness of xr journalism. There is no data. There's spotlights. Um, there is there is no general survey. But we know that a lot of journalists have to leave their professions once they go into exile. So whatever I'm conceptualizing right now, is also with the hope of once we have a better understanding a structural understanding of the challenges which will hopefully lead to more support. Now I know I'm very idealistic about the impact of a PhD, but eventually if it would get there, that we could also keep more journalists in the profession. By the way, this question is also very gendered from the very non quantitative analysis that I have. A lot of the women are forced out more of the profession than the men who have to go

that's interesting. Let's go to another woman then to to is downstairs from my Anmar to do how does how does the hearing this information strike you can affect you? Yeah,

thank you for sharing your findings. It's really similar to our situation in Myanmar. So there is like I have not been able to return to my country for two years now. There are so many journalists like hundreds of journalists in the border area or in the jungle, and they are like experiencing a lot of leg struggle a lot. A lot of problem like a to b. It doesn't make you to stay in the area legally or to stay in an area to report on Myanmar safely. So like safety, concern, legal concern, also the mental health, like impact on mental health are also a big big issue. And every journalist I interview also myself experiencing the mental kind of like struggle like having nightmare something. So yeah, and also I guess support to the journalist who had been in exile is like really like maybe this this looks up and like, not enough like you need more like immediate support and your eyes and knees.

And this is this is kind of what your project here is focused on as well is understanding what it is that that citizen journalists and exile journalists need in terms of how to continue reporting the news. Is that a fair summary?

Absolutely. Is that sorry, it's

sorry, actually both of your work but carry on. What were you gonna say Louisa?

I think

Wi Fi is gone. I'll just say while we wait for the Wi Fi to come back. The key is if you do work, sorry, Louisa, you broke up again. So I was just telling people to put their questions into the q&a function if they want to ask you anything. But yeah, you this is why you're doing this work.

Yeah. I'm so sorry for the Wi Fi. Okay. Yes, because like the challenge is that the chest stones brain before and that your fellows also thankfully shared with us. I think for everybody who sits down for three minutes and thinks about it. They are not surprising the problem is that they are not structurally worked on a lot of times, it's just like, well, it is challenging. And now I'm trying to structurally like really break through them and say, Okay, but what does that mean? And then what does that mean? According to make it

better? Yeah, enough of like spotlighting stories and violence and like, This is so sad. What are we going to do about it? Exactly. So here's a weird question. Is this something that newsrooms themselves should be working on? Is it a problem that that are there things that newsrooms could put in place ahead of time, before before people are sending to Excel or is that

crazy? I think it links to the style before when you ask what what practical skills and stuff people should develop. If they think they might be faced with exile is probably

the better question. What are the practical skills that individuals need?

And I think it links back to the networking. That's the one thing that has to be highlighted in exile. The other practical skills now I want to say another big frustration that I had is the one point that I said the non recognition of ecological analysts, right because of like, whatever objectivity and so on, which to me makes absolutely no sense because a journalist left their home country because they stuck to their professional values. That's the point. They refuse to be corrupted. They refuse to do propaganda. They were persecuted for professional journalism. And once they are in exile, that professionalism is stripped away again from them by Western media refusing to actually hire them to continue reporting on the countries that they know this. I'm sorry, I'm getting a little bit emotional. But this is back to the professional stuff, the professional skills out there. Those are professional journalists. This recognition is the one that is lacking. And not only the recognition of them as individuals, as professional journalists, but also all the different conditions that then also leads to a slightly different form of journalism, which does not mean that it's less less professional. So I be asked the question again, what can use rooms do I do not have practical recommendations for newsrooms that might be thinking about shifting into exile or relocated being forced to shift into exile, but I have a request for newsrooms, who are in so called safe countries. How your professional exiles journey? What is stopping you? Why are you sleeping on the huge potential of having access to information to countries that are otherwise more and more and more sliding into blackout into international blackout? Nobody knows what is happening in Eritrea or in Venezuela or in Nicaragua? Because that's the intention of those machines, right? That there's nobody reporting on it. And so when we think about users, I'm more like, I'm very confused at this stage. Still, five years in and I'm still confused. I have no answer to why nobody less than right now. There is some people who would work with x. I don't like some media, and they all they they all have Migration Stories, which are important. Don't get me wrong. It's important to also cater to the to the migratory communities from their own country. But why are we ignoring the fact that those were professional journalists reporting on politics reporting on human rights of years? Why are they suddenly reduced to being lethargy and catering to the diaspora? I don't understand it. So there's one journalist who once told me was very, very early before my PhD when I first started working with XML is the headline of my article was actually in exile. We are seen as sources at most, but never as journalists. And I think that summarizes my request, and usually Sorry, I shouldn't I changed the question a little bit.

No this is so good. This is so important, please, I'm going to highlight it again and repeat it again what you've said because this is crucial. It's this if you're setting in a western newsroom or in a relatively safe newsroom and a functioning democracy or an a functioning government system, and you're asking about how to support journalists in exile. effing hire them. There, they are effing hire them, but don't effing hire them to just report their sad first person story about how hard it is to be an exile let them be journalists i I'm you're bringing to mind and I'm not in any way shape or form a journalist an exile i But I happen to be an immigrant. So there's a level of empathy I have for the sad the the kind of reality you face when you come into a new country and a new culture. You do hear things like you don't really get it you have to work for the Daily Mail. And, and this is kind of ridiculous, actually, if newsrooms could a little bit break out of those standards and norms and and just see what the person produces and see maybe it doesn't fit into your normal routine, but maybe it's actually something of value. So yeah, that's storm the storm the gates, okay, calm down, everyone. I'm gonna ask you a couple of questions. From the q&a here. This is great. Polina stresses here from the JX Fund, the European fund for journalism and X file. That's www.jx Dash fund.org. And Polina would like to ask you what are good practices and XL media reaching financial sustainability? Is that something that you've looked into Louisa, I know that's a bit more on the business side, but is it something that you've looked into with your work?

I'm not looking into it for my work. But it is something that always inevitably comes up because of probably the headline on my last slide. So there have been challenges of everyday journalism, other than funding, because that's all we're all big, big. Big problem, money. And there's very little business models that I have in the cases that I work on. So so far, I have mostly worked on the Eritrean and to Burundi MK the Burundian do not have a business model. They all work with a being paid. They do the journalism that they do, they do an extra radio station. They squeeze it in somewhere between two one to two day jobs as an immigrant. The Eritrean day they do have a big funding model, which is not very sustainable in the sense of like, they have to keep applying for international brands. That is the one and now they start thinking about starting to monetize through YouTube through producing more things catered to maybe even a more international audience or to the diaspora. Now. The autumn, there are successful stories. I have not worked in detail on them yet, but I know that it would turn into like crowdfunding and getting the international community or the diaspora support the media more but that then also changes the content of the of the excellent media eventually, because what is the fact is that you cannot and this is the biggest challenge you can not have an audience finance journalism and you're an excellent, how is an audience that is not even allowed to listen to your idea otter read the newspaper is supposed to fund it. So unfortunately, made this is a question that I don't really have a very satisfying answer cheats enabled, everybody. they'll respond to that. No, no, it won't put fingers crossed that it would turn sustainable. And I think one thing that we didn't pick on it, I am working on four cases into extremely different regions. And while the challenges that I highlighted are some of them are, are very similar, and it's also reflected now in the experience shared by the exci fellows who checked by the challenges exile journalists face are very similar throughout the world. But by saying that I in no way do I want to ignore the context of exile from and where they are exiled now, and also however the international community is of it. So I think the cases that I know most emerged in Grundy in Eritrea so far there is no there is no journalistic business model even for the ones who before they had to flee right there is this nice sustainable advertising there's not enough money from audiences to subscribe. To stuff. There's also not having any practical possibility to do so because they don't even have internet so they can't subscribe or pay for Patreon or something. So that's my story and it comes in. And that's why there is no general answer. And it's one that you just said, Hey, Ben, if you had the answer, to that question, we will talk the current media crisis but

the entire industry would like to hear this answer. But I think there's there's there's something important in what you said there that there's a temptation from the west to go oh yeah, launch a newsletter launch a podcast and monetize it through Patreon and build your subscriber community. Yeah, tell us more in Eritrea, please. Yeah, what? We're radio is the number one form of of listening. So it's, it's not just that we ask newsrooms to please hire Excel journalists and listen to them and trust them, but also to those managing funds. Please. When you when you grant funds to these journalists, listen to them and understand that a sustainable model might not look like what you think it looks like. It's probably not a newsletter strapped to strategy and Burundi.

And also, if I tend to jump in on that, right It continuously trying to apply for funds. Already the bureaucratic hurdle is something that is extremely difficult for for extra journalists like requirements such as like you have to be a media base, for example in the MENA region. Well, you're technically not because you're an excellent, but you're working for that audience. So you argue, can you apply for a client or county? And then there's no there's no straight answer to that. So the condition of exile is not included in none of those things and then when we speak about bureaucratic hurdles, there the radio station in in Paris that I've worked with, they're, they have a project manager, which is fantastic. The use room in Nicaragua that I worked with, they also have somebody solely responsible for project management on Burundi. That I've worked with plenty of journalists, they don't have a project manager they are they are intending to jump into exile and suddenly they have to do

so interesting as project management skills, something that we could provide training and

I think on the one hand tied, yes. On the other hand tight I like to which extend to these, do we want to strain their responsibility further, right. So I'm like, if you're a trained journalist, that should be enough for you to continue doing journalism. Yes, of course. If it comes to skills and being prepared, project management is the number one thing because that's what you have to do. You suddenly have to do everything.

So I want to go to Russia. I'm from India downstairs, but before I do, he's actually got a question for you about Express, which we haven't even spoken about yet. Tell us a little bit about what's Express. What's the plan? And then we'll go to the right insurance question.

I will just quickly share my screen. Perfect. Um, there's not much on it other than mostly our social media handle, which is then you'll see that yes. So we spoke about the lack of structural support and really, really happy and delighted to see I'm sorry, I forgot. Polina in the audience who also sent a question from the Czech Spanish. There are some organizations that I did not want to claim that there's nobody working quite excited, of course, is the JX bond. Eric F sometimes does things as well. So please forgive me ever came on. I said, nobody works on it. And I'm the only person I know. Right? But we are we are trying to still make it even more structural and more global maybe and together with befriended with a friend of mine who is an ex agile and media director and project manager, we are launching express as an NGO. We are currently in the process of registering it. So whatever I'm going to tell you now about Express is mostly to plan and to dream and hopefully we can work on it all together. Already following us on social media is a great advice. So you want to become an organization that is based on two main pillars and that's coming directly from my findings because as you can imagine, after a year and a half, working on a PhD on it, I got more and more frustrated Okay. Eventually three reviewers were gonna read it indebted and I really want to change it. I really want to use and change and trigger practical change and Betterment documentation for all this. So the number one pillar is we want to launch a magazine Express for eco journalism, Bali it's a journalist replying to my earlier emotional plea of international media, hire extra journalists left and right on the country's Well, we're not gonna I'm not expecting that to change very quickly. And so again, like Why Why not us? Why can we not provide a platform where XR journalists can continue working as professional journalists. I always said that. I cannot give back a lot to expert journalists. who have lost their home and part of their identities and everything, but I can give back that little part of saying I still see you and recognize you and respect you as a professional journalist, and I actually want to hear about your country. So the audience of that magazine is gonna be different. It's we're gonna be the international audience, that the journalists are going to be the same if you're also going to collaborate with the established excellent media that are out there and republished some of the fantastic investigations that they have on their platforms, but that are maybe in, in, in Eritrea, and sorry, in the gray area, or or in Spanish, and then it's not very available to a broader audience, baby, but we will translate it. So that's an excellent journalism magazine. And then we would like to kind of fill that gap off the Brightech management in a certain sense is basically the funding. I'm slowly now I'm talking about a dream in five to 10 years, we have the plan of becoming a more and more established platform fundraising platform. Because we don't have the burden of needing to survive and exile we can focus and actually working through all of their authority documents, getting their funds, distributing a day duty exercise media. So that is the role of Express Yes, he wants to practically support exile jobs. They,

I'm not sure why the sham has this kind of pretty much

onside NT and provide

us guidance, He answered my question. answer your question. I think. I think it's worth saying I'm on behalf of me and the journalists in this room. If you I hope that your magazine is a success, but even if you don't if you've simply provide a space for journalists to come together and learn from each other and just like Tell, tell their stories to each other and provide that support. Even if it's it looks like this, that it's an online space that is in itself. Such a powerful thing. And you said it yourself network network network. So I'm glad that you're opening this space up and I'm really hope it's successful.

I find out that there is Nemo network for exiles media organization that has been recently launched, which is focused mostly on the exchange among established XR media. Because what also always came up in the interviews that I did, like we have to start from scratch we then first we don't know how to do these things. But there might be somebody in exile from Myanmar who already worked through all of that, but there's connect to between them so Nemo is working on that and express is gonna work on that as well. We and it's not it's not too competitive networks so anything collaborations everything we are in. We will be are in conversation with memo we have to be in conversation Conversation with Jay expand and just we need more and not less organizations and media working with and for access journalists, yeah. Um,

we were going to have the question, are there, stories, or journalists that. We should still have that question. How do you feel Louisa? Is that a question you want to go to? Is that something you want to talk about in the context of what the conversation we've had today? About sort of, it feels like the conversations being more practical and proactive and not from a victim space and is going to that question, kind of taking us into that romanticized victim space a bit or all the other stories that you've thought about that stand out to you stories of,

of proactive triumphs um, that's a good question. I have I have three quotes that are more on the depressing side, not victimized.

Not actually anything, but I would say very real. Let's do it. Then. Tell us if we can. I can see if I can frame it, or if I can just quickly just outline them and then see where they go. Because it was a bit like what has really like changed my perspective on XR journalism as well and maybe it's a nice way to go there now because it's kind of summarizes the different points that I already made. So the first one is not only a tap on the back for doing the right work of coming up with a new theorization but like also just highlighting the fact why it's also important to do it in academia, and not only in the practical space because we have been have now drawn to delink between those two things, right. Like, if they're journalism, there's nothing like with majors professional journalism, and then they also don't get practical journalistic jobs. And I think this first one has stood out to me because of that or saying that it's important to think about XR journalism as independently as possible with the constraints of course of being I have been educated in the west and so I of course, still have that lens but I'm trying to really send to the real life experiences and it was nice to hear that this this is something that they also want and it was great to provide an interview space. I got that feedback as well which changed my perception which I tried to highlight also throughout the summer. It was nice to get the feedback of having been able to provide a space one two hours in a very hectic life that is very focused on surviving and accessing as a person and as a journalist to just today, and actually have the time to reflect on things considerations are just to think about extra journals and there's no time to think about whatever this course is existing the rest of it are your objective or not. And the I think the last line of effort is just so buying into it right reading say that Alexander says, We are not journalists in impeccable clothes and big shiny houses or buildings, media houses. We recorded programs in the toilets because that was the most improved room that we could find in the little space and we loved and this is not I'm not trying to run romanticize it. I don't really think it's romanticizing did this just realize its theory? And then I will quickly jump to the third grade, which is Manuel from from Eritrea. Who that was just an important thing that that then changed my perspective in the sense of like, not only focusing on the journalistic production as I was before, of like norms and conventions and how do you handle your own identity struggles and things like that, and how does that reflect in your work? But actually, it was a very, very clear way of telling me, we are more than journalists now and that that's not only an composite, we are refugees or exiled or whatever that does also encompass, are we managers are we administrators all of those things? And I think it's important to bring those things together because journalistic debate, both in the practical and in the academic field is always very boxed up like those are the producers, they the field recorders. They are the ones who do the administration and in exile everything, everybody's everything. So that was just a way of changing my understanding. And then the one which is in the center stands for itself. I would say something that we really that I really, really, really have to remember we're always working on it. Talking about more is talking about how verification methods and your understanding of good journalism and professionalism and I always ask the question, what is their journalism? And let me say, well, good journalistic living. And he also said that in regards to the journalists who are not in exile who did not leave the country or could not leave the country, and he said, Yeah, no judging them, even if they do government propaganda. We're not judging them because we know that if they don't do that, they are not. They will probably be killed or disappeared. So that's important to have that very harsh real life. realisation behind the very end the evaluation of whatever journal they produce.

Last question is actually going to be for two two. And I would say that's only a two but I don't know we're gonna have time to do if people listening to this webinar or watching it on LinkedIn or Twitter, or YouTube or Facebook, are listening and they want to support journalists in exile. What's the one thing that's been said today that you really hope people listen to? And take away with them? What's the one thing people in the international community could do to support you and your work?

So I'm like researching on citizen journalism in Myanmar. So one thing I can see is like, new journalists like who are outside of the country, having relied to citizen journalist who are not professional journalists, and they take enormous risks and they they sacrifice too much to provide footage and the information. So what we mean like it and maybe budget for the API media to survive in a mountain and also to sustain a free press, and also like cover city bathing to the citizen journalists who are taking risks and like motc Bajaj for the safety that's what I want to consider the international community.

Yeah. Good. Good. Louisa, thank you so much for your time today. And thank you for your work and please keep doing it and we wish you every success with the launch of Express And I think the iPhone You saying you're on mute.

To go away but I still hurt your audience interest and party opportunity to you thank you so much

more success to. Bye everyone, see you next week. Last one.