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Welcome, everybody to the thoughtful counselor. This is Mickey white. And today I have with us Dr. Stacy Williams. Dr. Williams is a professor of social psychology at East Tennessee State University. And she's also the director of the social issues and relations Laboratory, which aims to understand the impact of stigma on health. And today we're going to have a really exciting conversation with them about some of their work that they're doing related to polycystic ovarian syndrome, PCOS. And they're going to tell us a little bit more about that. And also a little bit about their book, The Psychology of PCOS, which is linked on the thoughtful counselor website. So Dr. Williams, welcome. I'm so glad you're here with us today. Tell us a little bit about yourself and the work that you do.
Hi, Mickey, thank you so much for inviting me to be part of this. And thanks, I guess, to the listeners for tuning in to this particular episode. So um, as you said, I am a social psychologist by training and actually technically social health psychology. And for a couple of decades now, I've been studying stigma. And when I first started out, I was interested in this experience of intimate partner violence. But I landed on this idea of the stigma attached to seeking social support in that context. And like, there was no turning back, it just became this really interesting construct for me. And so I just needed to study it and continue studying it. So stigma has been my primary area. And I really just am so curious as the multiple ways that impacts health or how health conditions could be stigmatizing. But honestly, most of my work has been in the LGBTQ plus related stigma, which we generally call minority stress these days, and really trying to understand that impact, particularly in the context of Appalachia, where, where we are. So that's, that's been my work. And it's, it's just been so rewarding to study that topic, in hopes of making an impact. And most recently, I've really tried to take an intersectionality framework as a goal within that work. So it's been very exciting. And then as, for me, personally, I want to identify myself as a cisgender, white woman, lesbian and queer, working class background, highly educated guess middle age to by now 47 In a recent birthday, so that's really important to me to recognize my positionality as we talk about this, and actually in relation to PCOS, I also have PCOS. So full disclosure there, which is one of the things that brings me to this work. So thanks again for having me.
Yeah. So you mentioned a lot of personal identity, a lot of power, a lot of personal identity and a lot of professional engagement that are very intertwined, and a lot of ways. And so you mentioned having PCOS yourself and then engaging in this research. What is it that really brought you into wanting to know more about the experience and the stigma surrounding PCOS? And also, if you'll give our listeners a little bit of background into what PCOS is?
Yes, so thank you for that question. Um, honestly, so I mentioned a couple of decades worth of stigma research, but it wasn't until about five years ago, it occurred to me that hmm, I could study PCOS you using this same lens of stigma, and how that came about was, gosh, for 30 or more years that I've had PCOS. I never really talked about it. I was really ashamed about it about the symptoms. And it just felt like something icky that I didn't want anyone to know about. And so, but it was in a context of a research lab meeting, actually, it was the very last day of the semester and a spring semester at that. So the very last day we were working together, and I just happened to actually say I had PCOS. And as it turned out, the student said, Oh, I have PCOS to this student said, Oh, I have PCOS to four out of the seven of us in the room that day, had PCOS didn't know it. And meanwhile, we weren't studying PCOS. So I didn't actually attract folks to the lab for that reason. So it was really this eye opening experience, where, why hadn't we talked about it? Why did it take, you know, just that last meeting for it to come out. And that kind of led me down the path. And then I had a student actually, in that group that was a trans man with PCOS. And that was not my experience. So I hadn't really thought about that before. It wasn't in the literature now that I am in literature. And it was just this really compelling difference of experience that I was struck by that we're not talking about. So it was all these things coming together that just really, I knew I had to study PCOS. And I never looked back and wrote a book about it. And I just felt like I was doing all the work that I needed to be doing at that time. It was it was a really incredible experience. But yeah, taking a step back, polycystic ovary syndrome, is a syndrome, right. So it's a compilation of symptoms. And it's not any one thing to all the people that habit. But we know that the diagnosis that typically happens around at least two of the three criteria, and that is menstrual irregularity, usually kind of a lack of menstrual cycle or less menstrual cycle than their quote unquote, should be. And there's also potentially polycystic ovaries. I say potentially, because it's not a requirement for the diagnosis to have polycystic ovaries, which is interesting because of the name. And then they're not cysts at all. As it turns out, it's really underdeveloped follicles that never get released. And so your ovary ends up looking like a string of pearls, in a sense because of all of the follicles and how they form. Um, and then of course, the third criteria is hyperandrogenism, which is the increased androgens that might show up in bloodwork, but it can also just show up clinically. So excess body hair or facial hair that might be considered typical for a body had identified as female at birth and acne, loss of hair on the scalp, you know, things that would indicate the injury androgens going on in the system. So anyway, those are the symptoms that are kind of classic for the diagnosis. And then we have a host of other symptoms that people talk about or attribute the most common being weight gain overweight and obesity. And I say that word cautiously because I know that there's such a, a draw toward kind of the Health at Every Size and really being mindful of the words we use when we're talking about weight. So, but yeah, lots and lots of other symptoms, of course, including infertility that can lead from the from the irregularity of menstrual cycles.
And a lot of the things that you mentioned, weight gain, increased side effects of increased androgens hair loss, what we consider I guess, male pattern baldness right in the crown and in the front. But then also infertility all also have heavy stigma associated with them. And I know there's not been a lot of research into PCOS even on the medical side, or it's not often kind of talked about. So I'm curious if you'd share a little bit about kind of your journey of tying these things together for yourself. And what that also looks like just within kind of a medical setting.
Yeah, great question. So stigma is this really complicated concept. And whenever I turn students on to the idea of stigma, it's really hard to grasp, because it can be these kind of structural level isms that are out there, right, and all of these institutions that are perpetuating the negative beliefs or the unfair treatment, but then you have that interpersonal dynamic, that is the actual discrimination or unfair treatment that you experience in your life from others. And then perhaps most insidious, is that internalization, right of the stigma. And so you might feel badly about yourself and blame yourself or have shame for whatever it is. And so we really are seeing a similar experience of stigma with PCOS. As you mentioned, those symptoms in particular, the weight gain, especially with weight stigma, that's so rampid, given our cultural expectations for bodies, as well as the body and facial hair, that might be seen as excess for bodies that are people that I were assigned female at birth. And so we have these expectations that are happening culturally, that end up getting translated right into an experience of shame, or actual bullying and unfair treatment from others in one's life. So when I was interviewing the 50, folks, for my book project, this came up again, and again, when I asked about their experiences and social relationships and with their symptoms, that, you know, just thinking about some of the examples, there was a lot of bullying that happened in high school or middle school with regard to body and facial hair, especially, but also weight, and just feeling like people are judging them for weight gain. This also was so clear, in the healthcare setting, I think that was probably one of the biggest consistencies in the healthcare arena was this weight bias that exists? And so yeah, I think that we're seeing it at multiple levels by multiple sources. This, this judgment, this unfair treatment, but also the internalization of that. And then with infertility, one person's qualitative excerpt that I talked about in the book really kind of equated having a uterus to having a baby. And so it's like, if, if you can't do that, what be like, What good is that? So we ended up seeing a lot of discussion of kind of the cultural expectations for one's life. And that kind of translating into that stigma experience, but also this gender piece that was really pronounced.
Yeah, I'm hearing. I'm hearing these pieces of what your body is expected to do or how your body is expected to react, or what types of even control that you should quote unquote, have over your body. When we talk about weight stigma and bias in relation to PCOS. Something that I've heard quite a bit is that we've got a cultural idea that if you just diet enough or exercise enough or do whatever, then you should be able quote, unquote, again, to lose weight. And PCOS has a hormonal impact to where that's that's not the case. Other conditions have that as well. And then especially within the medical setting, comes into play. We already know there's a huge issue with Health at Every Size within just medical care settings, and who actually does that and who doesn't. And I'm curious when you also speak about these gendered expectations, if he would say a little bit more about that.
Yeah, I really appreciate that comment, and that is exactly what I was seeing in the end. Reviews where folks would talk about Gosh, as soon as I go into a physician's office, they're automatically attributing everything to my weight. So, you know, as soon as weight comes up, it's like, oh, that blame pieces there for the condition for one size. And a side note, this is actually interesting, because the guidelines for healthcare providers actually include diet and physical activity as kind of go to recommendations, right? Because they can kind of help with symptoms. And at the same time, as soon as the physician is bringing that up, it's being perceived as stigma. And so there really needs to be this intervention in there somewhere to say, Hey, can you you know, healthcare provider, can you please describe why you are suggesting this or, you know, state it differently, and not such an accusatory way? And really much more better communication needs to be
worked on there? Absolutely. And as you said, that I'm thinking about how we also make that assumption that diet and exercise are to lose weight, rather than a tool to manage symptoms that a healthier diet, whatever that looks like, or a balanced diet. And then regular physical activity, manage symptoms, but not have it connected with and also lose weight. Yes,
exactly, exactly. And then I guess the gender piece is also really central to what I was bringing forward in this book, because the UN I use the phrasing gender diverse individuals in the book in order to start to shift the language with PCOS. So PCOS is really known as a condition of women, right and reproductive age women at that. And so the whole subpopulation of folks who are trans masculine or non binary, they're completely invisible. So not only is PCOS kind of invisible from cultural awareness, it's even more invisible, that you can have PCOS and not identify as a woman. And so that was, that was a big contribution, at least my hope that it contributes to some awareness, I had about half of the people that I interviewed identified as gender diverse in some way. And really talked about this difference experience where it was, for instance, with body and facial hair. Those weren't unwanted most of the time, right? So folks who are trans masculine or non binary with regard to body and facial hair, it is actually more gender affirming than not. And so that was a difference in what we understand about the PCOS experience and the gendered embodiment, really, of that experience. In fact, some of the individuals talked about PCOS being an asset in that way, because they were further along in their transition when person called PCOS a superpower. And it was, I loved that it was really, it was an empowering thing for them. And so then it becomes this really complicated situation with health care, because all of our treatments are really to feminize the body. And so it's this big dilemma, then do you treat PCOS? And what are the implications of not treating PCOS?
That also makes me wonder, in terms of hair in general, that so many providers are hesitant to provide gender affirming care to folks with underlying systemic conditions. And I wonder if there's anything that you saw or anything that you know, of, in terms of that creating a barrier to care.
So I did in the health care area of the interviews that conducted folks consistently talked about this lack of cultural competence in regard to gender. And so I would say that that for sure is is an example of that and kind of not only our healthcare providers, uneducated, mostly about PCOS itself, it's this additional diversity that's entered the room that they also have struggles with to know how to handle Dollar. I think the intersection of that can be really complicated. So, so yeah, we had some really interesting interviews about what is healthcare experience like for these folks and and people just saying how much healthcare providers have to check the weight bias, they have to check their racism, they have to check their cisgender ism. And you know, all of these inadequacies related to health care.
Even thinking about maybe providers who specialize with PCOS or specialize in PCOS being located primarily within women's centers. And what that looks like, for folks. Speaking of I'm realizing one of the things we haven't really talked about is the diagnostic process for PCOS. What does that tend to look like?
So the biggest takeaway from the interviews that I conducted and the and the literature that's already published, is that there is a huge delay when it comes to diagnosis. So I think there's a study that was multiple countries, and there's a huge research group out of Australia actually doing a lot of this work. And it was an average of three providers and five years before folks actually get a diagnosis. Because for several reasons, I would imagine so the things that came out in my interviews were that physicians don't really understand PCOS all that much. So they're having to educate, they feel really dismissive. And then in addition, there are other things like weight bias and all of the other biases going on. But yeah, physicians really need a lot of training to understand what PCOS is. And the fact that there's also a lean, quote, unquote, lean PCOS, which is a smaller subgroup of folks that don't have the overweight component, but have a lot of the other experiences of the syndrome. They can also kind of slip away from diagnostics, because it's not the assumption that, oh, there's PCOS, that means you're overweight. So diagnosis becomes really tricky in that way. And then also diagnosis because of how varied the symptoms can be. So I think a lot of those reasons go into explaining that huge delay.
Well, it sounds like to there's a spectrum of severity among symptoms, and how much those symptoms impact day to day life as well.
Yes, exactly. And it also makes me wonder with regard to the gender diverse individuals with PCOS, you know, how much are they actually seeking care if the symptoms aren't harming them, you know, they're actually gender affirming, right in that way. So perhaps a lack of a menstrual cycle, and the body and facial hair, those might really be helpful to their identity. And so maybe they're not even seeking out treatment. So I think one of the big unknowns is really what are the long term effects of PCOS? We do know that there are huge risks for chronic conditions of our time, like diabetes and heart disease, among others, and so I'm just really curious what what is going to be the long term impact? Yeah, I'm 47. This is super relevant for me as someone with PCOS, too. But if we're not studying this whole swath of the population with PCOS, it just really is is disturbing to think about that.
And then it sounds it sounds like as well in relationship with other chronic conditions, like the ones you mentioned, that there's also a lot of interplay with systems that we just don't have information on. And that hearing you say, diabetes, and long term chronic conditions that develop and do have a pretty large impact on the body, that we also often treat as normal. That these are just at this point in time, things to be expected as we grow older. And I'm curious how some of of the how you see some of the necessity in taking something like a diagnosis of PCOS seriously, versus kind of like, oh, this is just kind of here. This is nothing I need to really worry about because I've seen kind of both sides happen with folks who are diagnosed with PCOS. And I'm wondering what your take on some of that is?
Yeah, that's, that's an interesting question. So the way that PCOS is typically seen, in addition to it being a condition of women, it's also really boiled down to the impact on reproduction. And if someone doesn't want to have a baby to be pregnant, then I think that is the assumption by health care providers actually, that oh, you know, you don't need to worry so much about your PCOS. And so even my own experience, honestly, as as recent as two years ago, when I was in a physician's office, and said, Hey, do you happen to know any experts in our region on PCOS, I'd really like to see a specialist and my physician looked at my chart, and she said, Well, you don't want to have a child. So I don't really understand why you would need that or want that. And so I think even at a health care level, there's this assumption that oh, the only reason we should care about it is if you need to regulate your cycle for pregnancy. And so I think that that honestly is part of it. That that big assumption. But I do worry about these big associations with these health outcomes that we don't know what happens kind of post reproductive years, we don't have solid longitudinal research that I'm aware of. And then subgroups of the population that may already be at risk for health outcomes, given things like minority stress that I also study. So what does that look like in these subpopulations at those intersections? So I think there's a lot we don't know, but I am taking it very seriously that we need to study this topic, because we need to know if we need to worry, right, we need to be aware of what what's going to make us have the most quality of life years. That's the way I look at my life quality of life years. And we haven't even talked about mental health yet and recognizing, so that's, that is such a big part of this conversation and the book project. So I'm here to talk about that, too. Yeah,
let's get into it. Let's talk about the mental health aspects of PCOS. What I'll do is, I'll just hand it to you why, what do we need to know? Yeah,
and it hasn't been lost on me that you're asking this question to social psychologists. So I totally kind of aware of that missing piece for me. Although several folks have said, I have a clinical spiritual. So but I definitely have the type of social psychological research that's more at the fringes of social psychology, so that it's at the intersection with mental health a lot of the times. But it has been made incredibly clear through the interviews that depression and anxiety are so common in folks with PCOS. And in fact, when I look to the published literature, you know, there are meta analyses, which is, you know, the analysis of multiple studies that was, presumably that's an even better account for, for what this link might be. And it's like, three to five times, and five to seven times as much depression and anxiety so that it's much more risky, right to have PCOS for one's mental health. And I'm just curious about that. And it's such a such a big deal. So when we think to the the social aspects, which is what I'm interested in, folks, in their interviews, we're making those links, right between the symptoms, the stigma, the weight bias, you know, as one's weight increases, then we're having more symptoms. So people are able to track for themselves, right, these linkages in their own lives and talk about those. So they, for instance, have times in their lives when they may have lost weight and people react to them differently than when they have have gained weight. And so one is aware in one's life right of these of these associations. That said, folks were very honest to say, you know, I know for sure that I have depression because of PCOS, no one has told me that, or, you know, I have a family history still. So maybe that means PCOS isn't the reason. But there's just so much unknown about that. So what I like to think about is okay, now that we know there's this association, like, what are some things that we can do? Or what are the implications of that? So that's really where my mind goes, as well. Like when I think about that I was really blown away, I'd like to share with you that some of the unexpected piece of this interview process for the book was hearing people talk about growth in the context of the hardship. And so it was this recognition of just how hard it is to live with PCOS. And yet, they wouldn't trade it for the world. Like they wouldn't trade having PCOS, because of how much it taught them about themselves, and their bodies to be able to have this journey toward acceptance over time, definitely over time, not overnight. But that was really inspiring. And to think about how folks talked about this, it really seems like an opportunity to, to use that as a frame. Right for for the implications of the work. So yes, PCOS can impact mental health, due to symptoms due to stigma, presumably. And there is this opportunity for growth. I say that carefully as well. Because I don't want to make it sound like Oh, everybody should have growth. And if you don't have growth, then you're wrong. So just, you know, with care, I say that, you know, as someone with PCOS, I was really inspired by that, and really thinking about, hmm, it really is about acceptance. And how do we recognize all of these pressures from the culture and maybe take that oppression lens, that minority stress view on on the approach to addressing these issues? Whether it's in therapy or just, you know, in one's life? Kind of a self help way? Yeah, so mental health was a big part of the conversations, as well as this unexpected piece about growth.
Yeah, as I was thinking about this idea of the chicken or the egg, which comes first, right, and these systemic impacts, am I depressed because of PCOS? Or am I depressed because of the way that I'm treated? Because of the interpretation that people have, even about PCOS. And I'm hearing this theme of almost post traumatic growth. And that an initial diagnosis of PCOS can be devastating. It can be very alarming, it can be very frightening, it can be very frustrating. And it can also be relieving. And it can also be scary, and it can also give you some answers. I'm thinking of a client that I worked with, who was diagnosed with PCOS, while we were working together, that they have been going through some health things prior to us working together, and we're trying to get some answers. And one of the answers that they got was that they had PCOS. And that led us to a lot of conversations about chronic illness and disability and identity and renegotiating their sense of self and who they were in relation to this new aspect of their identity. And how trying to keep that part pushed away from themselves was causing more harm than trying to find out a way to integrate it. And I'm really interested in some of these experiences. It sounds like you you had some of those experiences come up through your interviews of the meaning making pieces surrounding PCOS and I wonder if you You have any other examples of kind of that meaning making part that we often find ourselves doing and counseling?
Yes, meaning making is such a rich concept, and I think can really help when it comes to making sense of these, these real events that, that violate our sense of kind of our global thoughts about the world and ourselves. And yes, so I did see that happening mostly through either this growth context, or, honestly, the gender identity piece. So the growth context, I definitely had folks talking about how they used to see their body as broken, right, that they were just a broken human being or not quite a woman. And then there was this journey. And that was an intentional word that several people chose to describe the process. And so it was that journey of coming to appreciate one's body and really appreciate how it works, and to not fight against the body. So there was this just an awareness that, oh, I need to work with my body that functions a bit differently than, than others. But this this definite transition or the way that people made meaning about their experience, and so then it became less harmful to the self, it was, it was definitely this. More of an empowerment, I would say, experience. And similarly, same kind of process. So when it came to the gender diverse individuals, some people talked about how, you know, when they identified as cisgender women, as young people, that they had these symptoms that were really hurting them, right, really sad, stigmatizing, I'll say shameful. And then as soon as they had realized their identity and taken on and you know, accepted this identity, of whether it was nine, non binary or trans, there was the shift in it, it became, oh, this experience is just more neutral. For me, it doesn't have that psychological impact. So, a different type is not saying it's post traumatic growth, but it's a similar shift, I would say in the meaning of these symptoms, as folks shifted in their identities. So I think it was that identity shift allowed them to have the flexibility to see these symptoms as something different in their lives. So both were just really incredibly powerful to hear about, and not talked about in any published literature at all. And so as I think about what therapists for example, are experiencing in with clients going through this, if they don't have a literature base to look to, like, I'm, I'm just really stumped here as to why we aren't studying these topics and talking about them. In order to have a positive impact in people's lives, whether they're in therapy or just out in the community.
Yeah, so it sounds like one of the first things we can do to help support folks with PCOS is to talk about it.
Oh, yes, actually, one of the most compelling findings is I asked people to report about what's the hardest thing about PCOS? And, yes, they talked about symptoms, but by far the most. The most common response there was invisibility. And so having no one know what PCOS is, or feeling like you're so alone, because no one else knows what you're going through. Those are just really difficult experiences. And they're, they're hard to explain as well. So, yes, definitely talking about PCOS, making it part of our cultural discussions. And there are lots of support options available online. But I think just more and more support options. For folks with PCOS would be really helpful. Sometimes it's hard to discern what is a good support option online? So having therapists become aware about PCOS seems like a huge step. In fact, in the health care setting, the guidelines are suggesting to providers to screen for mental health. And so then it's like, well, what happens then? What's the next step in that? Right? So feels like there needs to be this addition of a mental health care provider, being the team, right of folks caring for folks with PCOS. So, so much work to do there.
Absolutely. And even as you say that I'm thinking about, if folks are having to see multiple providers for potentially multiple years before they can receive an accurate diagnosis, then that also potentially overlaps with being with a mental health professional during that time around those times, and not to step outside of our expertise, sort of step outside of our competency and diagnose. But sometimes say, hey, you know, it sounds like there's something more going on. This sounds similar to some of the things that I've heard about PCOS, what do you know about that? Would you be interested in talking to your doctor about that, and then talking about what that means for them, and what that looks like. And, again, not stepping outside of our competency, but that we may sometimes have some of that knowledge that we can also share. And that that, again, is that talking about it and and being open to it. We're helping clients even figure out how to talk about it with their doctors.
That that's so important. And I mean, I definitely agree to not step outside of one's professional boundaries or training. And at the same time, this feels like an opportunity to, to bridge right the experience with health care providers and mental health and help that individual client with what they need. And I guess, as I think about what you just said, I also think of other layers of that. So, for instance, folks experiencing depression, or eating disorders, or just kind of shame and different, different presenting symptoms, I would say an awareness that PCOS might be a contributor and in what does that mean in the room, but also being able to address that cultural expectation and contributing to any shame that might be encountered by that folks, by those folks in the room. But then also give in the how hard that healthcare experience is, if you have someone in the room that's about to embark on this healthcare journey to figure it out, maybe there's some work that could be facilitated by the therapists to help that person anticipate or to advocate for themselves and like, how will they handle that situation if they encounter oppression in that room with a health care provider? So different? Perhaps levels of preparation? Making space for that? conversation?
Yeah, and we, we talk about in therapeutic settings, broaching and how to broach with clients about experiences and differences and identities, and also thinking about broaching. Have you experienced this? Or how have you experienced this stigma from your healthcare provider? Or how have you experienced this stigma from me or from other therapists, other mental health professionals, and really being very intentional about the impact of PCOS have even if it's something that you've been living with for years and is a daily part of your life? Those micro aggressions those aggressions that happen still add up, day to day. And then on the flipside, where we're not talking about it, and how much that adds up as well.
Thank you so much for voicing that. Yeah. These microaggressions I, you know, speaking from personal example, I was diagnosed as a teenager and I was overweight and still am overweight, and so encountered that firsthand that weight bias in the room and at the time I didn't have language or I didn't have the awareness that I shouldn't internalize that, that it's something wrong with the system, right. So I think, especially for young people with PCOS, if folks are teenagers, early 20s, or when they get diagnosed, generally around that puberty time, we assume it shows up. And so that can be a really vulnerable time to get this information. But also to get these micro aggressions where we can't, we might just attribute them to something wrong with oneself, right? Rather than, Oh, there's there's this crappy interaction with the healthcare provider. And so absolutely room for improvement there and thinking about that, in relation to mental health as well.
I'm wondering, kind of as we start to wrap up, what other if there are other ways that mental health professionals or just mental health professionals who also have other identities and other relationships, can support folks with PCOS? And I've got another follow up to that. But I'll hold that for a second. So what are some other ways that we can support folks with PCOS?
Given PCOS, it seems to impact every aspect of one's life. So folks in my interviews talked about it not being the diagnosis, but the symptoms and the symptoms really impact the body in ways that are quite visible. And so everyone around you is kind of encountering what, what you might look like, or how you're presenting without knowing you have a condition. And so I recall some very specific kind of heart wrenching examples, honestly, of people who retrospectively reported about their early years where it was, say, a mother figure or parent that really was trying to encourage their teenage daughter to, to fit into feminine standards. And so it was pressure to lose weight or pressure to have no body hair. And so this one example just sticks with me of a person received under the Christmas tree at holiday time, shaving devices. And it was just this really devastating experience that seemed based on their story. And then they were perceived as not being grateful for, you know, the gift. And so it's just these, these intentions that people might have to to be helpful because wanting your kid to fit in, right. But being aware of all of those little ways that our behaviors or language might be inadvertently stigmatizing or excluding, I think, being able to identify some of those even the whole language of PCOS, right, only covering women. And so really wanting to be intentional about inclusion. So I think I think language is huge. When we support people being intentional thinking, from how will this be interpreted? And not just what are my intentions? Because it does, it really impacts relationships, how we feel about ourselves, our mental health, our encounters and physical health care. And so any ways that mental health care providers or just people in general listening, I think we there are so many ways we can be supportive, just by talking about it and showing more flexibility.
Thank you for that. The kind of last piece that I'd like to ask you is thinking also about listeners, whether they're mental health professionals, counselors, psychologists, social workers, what have you, students, educators, other folks just interested in mental health who have or are working towards a diagnosis of PCOS. Is there anything you'd like to say to those listeners?
What a big question. I love it. You know, I just want to really say that I feel like my whole career now has taken this shift toward trying to make an impact. And I think, by us, each telling our stories, whether you have a podcast platform, or whether you just talk to your neighbor, about something you're going through, I think we never can truly know the positive impact that we can have on people's lives. So it's been super intentional for me to get out there and give presentations and talk about this book. And the best part of this whole process has been when I've gotten a student dropped by my office or send me a message saying, I got a diagnosis because you shared this information. And so I think you don't have to write a book to have that kind of impact. I think it's, it's what each of us does, even if we don't have a diagnosis yet, even if we have one. And, you know, we're feeling struggling, we haven't, we haven't mastered it, right. That's the thing with this condition. It's, you don't, you don't cure it, right, you don't master it. And so anything we can share about our own experience, even maybe, especially those hard times, that we think, Oh, no one wants to hear about it. Those are the things we do need to share. Because the more we share, the more people know. And we can make an impact. So I think that just really encouraging folks to share their own stories.
And speaking of your book, and listening or reading those stories, Dr. Williams has written the psychology of PCOS that came out earlier this year, correct? Yes, February, excellent February of 2023. So you can grab a copy of that and learn quite a bit. So again, Dr. Williams, thank you again, for sitting down with me and talking about your experience and sharing your story and the work that you're doing. It's it's very valuable, very meaningful.
Thank you so much. I really appreciate the invitation. And I'm also collecting people interested in doing this work with me. So if anyone listening has that interest, please reach out. And I really, I really hope that we can make an impact. I know my discipline doesn't study this topic enough. And it's not talking about it psychology, and yet. We have such an impact of PCOS on on mental health. So, thank you so much. Really appreciate it. Yes,
thank you and thank you from all of us here at the thoughtful counselor. Tune in next time.
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