Community. Yeah, you too. I'm gonna put you on speaker, if that's okay, just so I don't accidentally hang up on you, which I have a tendency to do. Yeah, no worries. Thank you. I appreciate it.
Yeah. So, yeah. Thanks for
taking the time to talk. I really appreciate
it. Remind me, how long have you been with the indie fest?
So I've been with indie fest that was just celebrating my 10 years this last earlier this year. Holy
smokes, yeah, I covered indie fest a lot. I'm one of the founders of SFS, which is, like a website that is, yeah, not what it is, you know now, what it was at the time. But so I covered you all a lot back then, when I was starting my career, and it's great to be like, back in touch with Jeff
and other folks.
Yeah, most definitely, I loved what you guys did, actually, in addition to be a programmer and curator, I'm a filmmaker, and there was a great review that you guys did of one of my docs on the band fishbone, and I always loved that one. So, Oh, that's
funny. I'll have to go to look it up and see who did that. Yeah,
yeah, but, yeah, I always loved the kind of writing style that y'all did there.
Oh, we had a lot of fun. I mean, it's like, you know, they're definitely everybody who's there now is nice. They're friends of mine. They do a good job. But, you know, it's it was different back then. It was different back then, as we all say, yeah,
right. Well, it's, I mean, I don't know how much it aligns, you know, but, like, you know, even with the documentary film industry, yeah, a lot of the things are being discussed nowadays is that, you know, there you are the there's just these cycles, right? Yeah, art forms and businesses and, you know, industry and so just one of those things where you know, you know, it just, it's, you know, things change, or they're different, you know, yeah, and some of the changes are good and that some of them are not so pleasant. Sometimes, you know,
well, that's See, thank you for sending the segue up for me. I appreciate it, because that's sort of like, what I'm thinking about, what I'm sort of trying to parse through. And I don't, like, I don't have, like, a thesis for this story yet even, because it's, you know, it's like, I'm not having, I'm just sort of, there are a lot of like, different moving parts, and I'm sort of like, you know, you can't see me, but I'm like, moving my hands all around in a frantic, dumb way like it. But it all started when I looked at the documentary box office for this year, and I looked at the list, and I realized that I have barely seen any of it, and that most of these movies are not movies that you could have caught it a film festival. Um, most of these movies are not movies that you're going to hear about when you know Oscar announces its uh, documentary nominations. It just seems like the divide in it wasn't always this way, obviously, right? Like there was a time when the biggest grossing docs were the ones you were talking about,
yeah, and I think, you know,
you know, I think that that's kind of maybe to two reasons, and you might have ran across this so far in your research. But like, I mean, I think one of it, and I hate this word, so, like, I wish I could come up with a better word, but currently, I just got off a call with a client so nonprofit space, but, you know, like things are so siloed, you know. Or, you know, we so so tribal, you know. And so the idea is, like you just, you you go, there isn't as much, much more carry over between, you know, films and different types of audiences, as there used to be, you know, and some of it is just, you know, the way we kind of discover and find films, you know, some of its marketing. But also, unfortunately, and this has been true for Docs all along, is that almost always, audiences go to see documentaries because of the subject matter, not the story, not the art, you know, not the sense of story. And some of this is just based on the nature of how documentaries get reviewed, too. Is like you always notice if I give a lot of film reviews by great film critics, they review the subject matter, they don't review the film, you know, yeah. And so it's really hard to kind of get there. And then the other aspect is, there was just a big influx of money into the doc world with the ramp up with streamers. And I think it's kind of like, it's like, it's kind of like squirting, you know, like, you know, gasoline, like, ladder fluid on a fire, you know, it's like, there's a big boom, and then it kind of sucks all the air out, and then, you know, you're kind of left with, you know, the repercussions of what's, you know, afterwards, you know. And,
well, that's, I mean, that's one of the things I was. Wondering,
you know, when we're like, talking about, like, distribution is if streamers have sort of cannibalized the distribution model,
yes, I would agree. I think the streamers have cannibalized distribution model. Because, you know, one is that, you know, in the olden days, you know, even some of these big docs, they relied on that kind of, like old school band, the model, you know, where it's like, when you're banned and you're starting out, you start off with some small clubs, you know, and you, you know, you kind of build yourself up to the arenas and stadiums, whereas here, you know, with streamers, partly because they have a built in audience and they also have funding. It's like, you can basically go from just like, like, premiere the film at Sundance or Tribeca or something, and then just shoot it out on the streamers, because you don't really need to build the momentum or even an audience base for it, because you already have people that are paying for it and are just expecting that you're gonna kind of serve it up,
like, if I was making, like, Hoop Dreams, or Roger and me. Now, do you think that's what would happen? Is that I would like, premiere at like, Doc Fest and then go to HBO or something?
So it's a good question. I mean, those are, you know, two really great classic films, you know. And, I mean, like, even if somebody made them today, they would be special. You know, it's not like, you know, they kind of, you know, there's a kind of, this kind of kismet, I guess, you know, with it, the I would say this, I think a lot of people would argue, is that if somebody would make it was making Hoop Dreams or Roger and me today, that Netflix or HBO wouldn't be interested, but there wouldn't be the scaffolding or model for people to discover those films, and so they couldn't have become the Roger and me and Hoop Dreams that we later on discovered, because there wouldn't, there wouldn't have been, you know, the the methodology, the methodology that helped make those films, doesn't currently exist. And, I mean, I would hope that those films are so special that they could break out, but I don't think they would be the cultural phenomenons that they were then. So
they would like drop on Netflix, and they would be there, and we'd all talk about it for a weekend, and then move on,
yes, or, or even Netflix wouldn't be interested in it, you know. And so it would be a film that other people so, so if Netflix or HBO happened, yeah, it would just, basically just, you know, it hit a moment in time the cultural zeitgeist for a week, and then you'll move on. It'll just be like a just be like a dispel commodity, like most other things nowadays. But what's more likely is that it would be this film that people like critics and tastemakers and things maybe slowly discover, you know, at a festival, and there would be people that would come in and support it, but there wouldn't be a way to amplify it in the same way. And so it'd be a small film that maybe played in a couple of theaters to not so much great box office, and maybe won some awards, but like, you know, in the end, maybe it gets a broadcast pickup on PBS, maybe not just based on the changing climate, and then it just gets dumped as a transactional VOD, you know, on Amazon and Apple, you know. And never get a streaming deal or broadcast deal, you know,
if they love you, they end up on canopy. Come on, there's always canopy, yes, or
canopy, canopy would definitely take it, because they have good taste, and it kind of fits within their mission. And I say this just in the sense that, you know, though the sorts of films that Roger and me and Hoop Dreams were and are are different than what are like popular and acquisitions right now, you know, yeah, and so, unless Netflix or whomever saw that, hey, this was an end run for them to get an Oscar, you know, probably not. And it's just, it's not this. It's just, it's just it's not the thing that's in style, you know. It's like, you know, kind of like that phrase, the it girl, you know, which is those sorts of films like Hoop Dreams and Roger me just aren't, aren't the it, it thing nowadays. Now, the thing I also say that kind of adds to this is that we are dealing with, like, a glut of documentaries that exist just from the democratization of the forum, right? But also the pandemic, because So, pre pandemic, because of the opportunities for the streamers, you had kind of a very tech approach to documentary filmmaking, in the sense of, like treating a documentary like a startup. You know, of like, hey, look, I can throw a million dollars at. This thing. And once I get across the finish line, I'll be able to sell it to Netflix, you know, or HBO. But then, when the pandemic happened, there were all these films that for, like, not private equity, but, you know, basically private funders were doing treating the film of the commodity they had it in the work, you know? Yeah. And so as film festivals closed and then reopened to virtual and the spaces kind of figure out, most of them wanted to perfect their investments. They're like, No, we're not going to debut our film this year. We're going to hold out another year, even though it's already in the can, because we need the market to recover. But what happened is that then there were people that were working on films during the pandemic too. And so once things kind of returned to normal, you had this kind of rush for the doors of a lot of like, you know, a lot of good quality films and not enough interest or buyers. But then this was also happening at a time when all the streamers were buckling down, reducing the number of documentaries they're doing, and also moving their documentaries in house versus acquiring them.
Okay, yeah, that makes total sense.
It's just, it's a supply and demand thing, you know, yeah, and in the supply and demand thing that's affected by two things. But, like, you know, I totally understand if, like, if, if I had put a million or $2 million into a movie, you know, and you've been working out for several years, and you've been looking for this thing, it's like, it's, I mean, I know we've been beneficial enough at, you know, with indie Fest and SF dot fest that we've gotten some films that, typically, you know, several years ago, we would have loved to have, but they wouldn't have still been on the market, on the film festival, they wouldn't be on the film festival circuit, because they would have already been picked up and wind up broadcast. And so we, obviously, we don't show films that are already available online. And so like, tip like our festival doc, Festus takes place in June, Tribeca takes place in June. And so typically, we can't get films that are at Tribeca. So a film that premiered last year at Tribeca, that's never played in San Francisco, typically would want but it would have wound up on Netflix right nowadays, those films are still out there, and are still needing to utilize the festival circuit to kind of create value to their film, because they don't want to take, you know, pennies on the dollar for a film that costs a lot of money. Sure, sure.
I want to pick up a thread of
something that you said, sort of in passing, where you said, like, a, you know, a disposable commodity. And this is sort of a squishier question, but is there something about a movie being on streaming, basically straight to streaming? What we used to say straight to video back in the day, you know that straight to streaming that makes it feel more disposable than something that gets even a limited, you know, even just a coastal theatrical run?
Yeah? So it's a good question, and it makes me think of two things, right? I think the nature of streaming, it's so passive, you know, that you're not really, you're you're not really searching something out, you know. You're just kind of looking for something at that moment, you know. And the other aspect is that if a streamers acquired a film, which is what the case has been until recently, versus making a house, it means that it's only going to be on the streamer for a year or so, you know, right? And so if you haven't had that kind of art house release that you've talked about before, right is that you haven't kind of created the footprint for discovery later on. So even when it leaves off Netflix, it could be on Amazon, just streaming to buy, but nobody's aware of the film, right? So they're not going to know to go find it on Amazon, you know, unless you're featuring on the subject. And I think you know not to kind of sound too wonky, but, you know, so like, you know, I come to programming and curation, you know, from the kind of filmmaking side, in the sense of, been making, you know, documentaries for about 25 years. And you know, what I learned early on is that the kind of the best documentaries I was seeing, there was a lot of work behind the scenes to kind of develop that audience, you know, yeah. And so I had to kind of, kind of develop a kind of a DIY skill set, you know, so that, for the lack of a better word, like, so that there could be a long tail for the film, right, you know. And so that's what that kind of art cross. Network allowed for like it wasn't as a commodity, is that, you know, people would talk about it and be able to discover it. And you know, you it was a slow burn, you know, whereas now all the resources get put into the kind of initial launch, you know, and then, you know, the algorithms take place. Now to be, in all fairness, is, like, I love PBS and I love their documentary strands. But, you know, unless you're a couple of the kind of chosen films, you know, PBS strands are really great too, in the sense of, like, you get a couple million viewers right off the bat that week, right? But a lot of those films then just kind of disappear into the ether, you know? So, I mean, it's not something that hasn't happened before, right? You know, there's always been, you know, these, you know, these, these things, these ways, but the, oh,
I know exactly what you mean, where you're like,
This was amazing front line, and you just sort of stumble across it, and you're like, why wasn't this huge? Yeah, exactly, yes,
yeah, exactly, yeah. And the reason why is that because, even though the filmmakers and the producers and everybody saw saw it as a work of art, right? Yeah, it is also still, like, it's just a product, right? And you know that, I guess, is one of the larger discussions that has been ongoing in documentary films is that, you know, a lot of filmmakers, they have to move on to their next project, right, or their next gig that's paying the bills, you know? And so there isn't a lot of, like, marketing, Outreach and Engagement dollars built into the documentary fund, funding, and so there, you know, unless you're going to put your own kind of filmmaker sweat equity, because you're building quote, unquote, your brand as a filmmaker, you know, or you have a social issue doc, and there's other organizations that want to help amplify that issue. It just like you you know, the films are kind of left to kind of their own devices, but they're not always fully grown and developed, you know, whereas, like with narrative fiction films, right, we already kind of accept that they're a product, you know. So marketing dollars got built into it, because the idea is like, well, the only way people are going to find out about it, you know, is, you know, if you put some money in there.
Well, so when I look at like, the, when I look at the chart, and when I look at the films that are on the top 10, um, with the exception of like, you know, there's like the, you know, the, there's like a Lego, like fro Williams thing. And, you know, William Shatner, there are some movies that sort of had did what, what you described, like, you know, in terms of, like the old school, sort of like building the brand. And I'm, like, thinking specifically of, Am I racist, of course, but the Fathom Events, movies, the, you know, the Jesus thirsts the ark in the darkness, some of these other faith based movies, and, of course, vindicating Trump, which is, you know, the same distributor is, am I racist, right? So it seems like those guys are playing that marketing game that you were talking about, that, you know, that quote, like, I'm just using these terms. But like that, prestige products used in the past?
Yeah, I think so yeah. And a lot of it is that, yeah, they're just, you know, the the, one of the reasons why the prestige projects aren't often putting money in, you know, nowadays, is just that the return on investments not there, right? So the, and I'm for lack of you'll probably run across the phrase somewhere, and then you'll remember, you'll know, and you already will know what I'm talking about. But like, the idea is, like, if, let's say, a streamer buys your film, right? You know, that's really your one big chunk of money, you know, ancillary revenues, you know that art house distribution kind of depended on the past. Just doesn't exist, right? You know, and so, you know, I'm sure, like, I'm sure Roger and me probably made a ton of money on, like, VHS video sales, you know, the rental companies long ago, you know. And, or even the educational market, you know. But yeah, so I think, you know, I think that these kind of, this kind of current box office films that you're talking about are say they're, they're often either buying into a movement, you know, who has money that they're willing to spend, because basically, if they're going they want to see the film, but also, if they know that their dollars are going to support like a cause that they believe in. You know. Know, which, I think some of those kind of Trump documentaries, the minors racist one is, you know, and then the other ones is, just like the built the built in brand, you know, of course, you know celebrities and celebrity docs, and you know, a lot of people poopoo these, you know, for
the built in brand of God,
what's that the built in brand of God, yes,
that's a good way to put it, yes.
Like, God's a big brand, household name. I like that.
Yeah, exactly right. It's, you know, and you know, you know. I mean, I can even remember. I mean, you know when heat dreams came out, right? You know, everybody was talking about it, so I wasn't even interested in documentaries. I was aware of it, but, like, it wasn't. I was just kind of, like, like a brand of, like, two high school guys playing basketball, working with, like, I'm just like, that's not my I got the same prejudice about subject matter as well, you know? Sure,
yeah.
Well, no, it's interesting. The number of people I've talked to, you know, just about who work deeply within the documentary space, the turn they take when they just hear true crime, even though True Crime arguably made, you know, like, made the documentary space for so many people, right? Like, for so many people, when they think of a documentary, they think of something that is true crime, or true crime adjacent, but, but there is not a single piece of what I would consider classic, you know, true crime in the top 10, unless you count, like, I mean, vindicating Trump. I suppose you could create the argument that it's in exoneration narrative. Um, yeah, one could create the argument, I'm not going to today, but what could, but that it, but, I mean, but it's still it's not a true crime genre thing, it's not the staircase so that there isn't even any true crime like, that's making box office, like, that's That's wild, and that's not expected.
Yeah? And I think that one definitely the streamers kind of play a role in, you know, because that's the thing that they know their audience creates nuance, you know, yeah? So they're like, there's no reason, there's no reason to create awareness, you know, because you're just basically throwing good dollars, you know, after something that you don't need to buy. You know, true,
right, right? If you've already got it, yeah, what's the point? Yeah, yeah.
It's funny. Like, here we're talking about, like, oh, you know, like, whistle of the days when there's some true crime documentaries on, you know, the top 10. But like, you know, there's some really great classic films that came about, you know. And I think you know too often when you know we're in times of trouble, you know, people like to kind of poo poo or criticize, you know, the situation of, like, you know, like, all they want to do is, you know, make you know celebrity docs, you know, or true crime docs, you know. I thought from the thing you know, like, why don't they funding my film? And the thing I always have to remind myself as a filmmaker is, like, I'm just jealous, you know, like, I want the money that they're putting together those things, but like, selling it, right? Yeah, if I, if I'm willing to make that, they're willing to pay it, you know. And if not, I have to find an alternative path. And the thing is, is, like, documentaries have been doing that from the beginning. It's like, you know, it's like a very punk rock, cinematic art form, you know, it's an activist art form, you know, even ideally, that's kind of more the subtext versus, you know, so in the sleep, but like, the way the documentary filmmakers have gotten out the most, like, almost all these kind of, like classic film docs that we think about, they were all independent projects, you know, that were creative in the way They were made, but they were creative in the distribution, so that they were able to break out eventually. And the thing is, people always remember the kind of final run of it, but they never, you know, I guess it's like any sort of success story, right? You know it, you know, it's always sold as if it was kind of easy, or this kind of like, just like little bit of serendipity, but it often overlooks, you know, how much uncertainty existed. You know, beforehand. I mean, you know when, when they were making Hoop Dreams over the course of what, like eight years, or whatever it's like, they didn't know where the film was going to be, you know. Or even when Jill Berlinger, you know, was working on, you know, like Brother's Keeper, right? Yeah, they didn't know where these films were going to wind up, you know, they were all leaps of faith, you know. And so the idea is, like, nobody's ever going to pay you to take a leap of faith, right? They, you know, they, they want certainty. And that means certainty is the thing that you get with celebrities. And, um.
Uh, true crime, yeah,
because the story is the story or the brains have already been established,
yeah, yeah, you're right. You're right. And so and to your earlier point, people are going for the subject, not for the film,
exactly. Yeah. And, I mean, you could make the argument, I guess you know too, is like, I mean, like, I like to think that narrative fiction films are different. And I do think that, like, reviews played, or at least for a long time, have played roles. But, I mean, you know, up until recently, obviously we were, like, in the movie star, you know, realm of things, right? And people bus things, because the movie star was, you know, nowadays, it's the intellectual property, you know, you know. So, like, that's the thing is, like, mean, things are definitely difficult for documentaries nowadays, and things are changing. But you know, when you kind of like, scratch a little bit beneath the surface, you know, a lot of it isn't so much different than what's happened before, you know. And you know, often when these kind of death nails are kind of called out, you know, usually it means that there's some other kind of creative documentarians working out there, creating something new, or new model that's going to go and surprise us in a couple of years. And you know, we'll be in another golden age of documentaries. I feel, I feel like, in my entire time of making documentaries, I've, like, been through at least now three boom and bust cycles, you know. And you know, every cycle that comes after the bust, you know, has resulted in, you know, what people consider pretty transformative films, you know. So that's what keeps me hopeful.
Well, I mean, am I racist? Is a box office like, am I racist right now? Like, as of like, the last report, it's made, you know, $12.3 million that's and it This isn't one of those things, like an angel studios release, where the box office is getting fluffed. You know, this is those are real tickets. And it might not be subject matter that appeals to everyone in America, but that's, you know, $12 million worth of people going to see a documentary.
Exactly. Can I ask you a question? Have you I haven't actually seen it yet, but it is the one of all the different ones I've been most curious about what there's storytelling was like, you know, like, have you seen like, I'm just kind of curious. Like, is, even if I don't agree with the film, is it interestingly made, or is it more agile?
It's um, it's a,
imagine, like a right wing Daily Show,
interesting, like, I mean it, it's like that. It's like, sort of serving that vibe, like it's not like one of those things, like, like, you know, Project Veritas, where it just feels like it's, you know, it's, you know, it's not, it's not that different than like, if, like, I imagine if Bill Maher made a movie or something and was just a little more to the right. It's um, it's digestible,
Okay, interesting, okay. But
keep in mind, I grew up in a very small town in Indiana, and heard like, and still here when I go back to visit my family, way worse, more horrifying things. And so it could just be too that I am numb from that, from, you know, a childhood in Indiana. Okay, yeah, so you hear me, so you know what I mean, right? Like, and then, like, you know, when I'm back in San Francisco, I, you know, I'm like, Oh, my God, you know. But like, watching it, it's, it's a hey, I'm just asking questions sort of thing, you know,
but a slight tangent. But have you ever seen or heard of the classic documentary, 17? Oh, of course. Okay, yeah. Like, that's one of my favorite documentaries of all time. You know, like, when I, when I saw that film in like, college, you know, in the early 90s, I was like, I was like, oh, man, this is just, like, my town. Like, it's crazy, yeah, yeah,
yeah, no, I know. No. I know what you mean. I know exactly what you mean. And it's like, weird, because, like, all of those towns now are like, like, you know, we just had like, a gas station and, like a local hamburger place, and now, like the town where I grew up, it's just, like, covered in strip malls, like, it's just as backward and weird, but Everybody has the internet.
I don't know that this person fits within your story or not, but I'll just share it because it's kind of an interesting antidote. But so there's a guy named Christopher Rufo. I don't know if you've heard his name before, but he's basically the kind of right wing activist that the. It really magnified the DEI issue, you know, yeah, and you know, you know, has become this kind of, you know, kind of right wing activist, you know. So the thing that's interested at him is that he used to be a documentary filmmaker, and I would say, like, a very kind of, like, you know, you know, thoughtful, you know, like, centrist, you know, like, you know, like, not liberal, but you know, kind of open minded documentary filmmaker based here in the Bay Area, you know, it made a couple films for PBS and things on international issues.
But, you know,
yeah, I know he's making some additional right wing documentaries nowadays, you know. But you know, he's, you know, this part is a little bit off the record, but like, you know, I he basically just became a disgruntled documentary filmmaker, you know. And you know, was just like, I think, kind of chasing the box, you know, yeah, just like, look, this is where the market is, you know. And it's been more successful beyond belief than I could have ever imagined, you know, I guess, you know. You know, folks sell their souls sometime, you know?
Well, you know, it's like, it's always interesting question, because, like, you know, he's not the first person where someone's character I, you know, who's like, you know, someone's characterized them to me as like, oh, you know, he was like this. And, you know, maybe we disagreed on some stuff, but he was a reasonable guy, and he must not believe these things that he's saying. Now he must be following the money. And I always wonder if that's true, and if so, is that better than being a true believer? And I don't know. I guess I'm not here to judge anybody, but I'm always curious, like about what's preferable in the long run. What do we Why do we? Sometimes we think to ourselves where we're more comfortable with somebody that we knew choosing to follow the money, because the alternative that they have become this true believer seems right. Yeah,
you know, it's a fair question, because, I mean, you know, you know, you know, if you're you know, as long as you're honest, right, you know, or intellectually honest, you know, it just, you know, you're making something for people to use or consumer that they want, you know? I mean, I mean, that holds true. I mean, like, I hated documentaries early on, you know, because I just, like, I just saw them as, you know, agit prop, you know, you know, you know, have your vegetables sort of film. And this is, like they, really, the documentaries I was first exposed to, you know, just seemed very hit your head on top of the head, you know, in regards to issues. And really, you know, filmmaking is a visual storytelling, you know, form. And they just didn't seem to very good visual. And, you know, yeah, but then, you know, you run across you, like filmmakers like Errol Morris, you know, and you're just like, oh, whoa. Documentaries can be some different. And I think the best documentaries, and this holds true, I think, like, with the two films, like, you know, Hoop Dreams and Roger May was first start off with this. Like, they, they all have very, kind of, like, specific points of view. But you get, you know, that the filmmaker is creative and curious, you know, and really what you're doing is, like they're not running the story so much. They basically their personal interest was the thing that brought them to the story, and then they're kind of capturing the story in their own vibe, but the story is informing the way the film is made as much as the filmmaker, right? And that balance, I think, is often what makes some of the most interesting documentaries.
That's exactly how I think of I one of the people I'm talking I talked to for the story, is Dan Reed, who, and, I mean, I think Dan's great, and I always love talking to him, because he's exactly that, like, he, he, he's just so curious, and he, you know, just goes down these holes. And I think that that's, you know, I love having my opinions and I but I like to separate it from, like, you know, what I'm doing it in my day job, because I feel like, then that makes what I'm, what I end up creating, more interesting.
Yeah. I mean, I always say, like, you know, I occasionally will teach, like, a distribution class, so, you know, at college or whatever, documentary. And the thing of, you know, you know a lot, most documentaries start off and write a proposal, you know, ahead of time. And you know, they're kind of like you're imagining the film that you want to make, right? And it helps with funding and things, but then you really just file it away. You know, if I. Yeah, like, if I made the films I first imagined beforehand, they would definitely wouldn't have been as fun to make. You know, it's like, you know, it's the surprises and discoveries, right, that make the journey more fun, but then also are reflected in the making of the film, you know. And I think that's the one I would even maybe make the argument with some of the kind of true crime films that are on streaming, you know, is, obviously, there's a business model of why they're skipping the larger releases, you know. But also, like, they also don't have the layers, you know, yeah, of substance that would have actually probably put it into the top box office, you know. And that's partly just the methodology in which they make, you know, and that, like, I'm sure the it's a, it's a, it's a work product, I guess, versus like a craft, or maybe it's craft versus art, you know, or something, you know, yeah, it's like, you know. And you know, I know the self, when I've been commissioned to make films like, I'm proud of the films that made one commissioned, you know. But you know, there's, usually, there's a, there's a hard and fast schedule at play, right, you know? And so it's, it's, you know, it's a, it's following the recipe, I guess, you know, versus, you know, you know, figuring it out as you go along. Yeah,
yeah, absolutely. And it seems like maybe that's, I mean, that is part of what to your point, maybe makes like the charts, not as different or as unusual as we're imagining. Or maybe, maybe it is just part of this cycle, huh? This is really
interesting. You know, something we haven't talked about, you know, is this accelerated distribution schedule, you know. And so for the films that do still, you know, play the festival circuit for a while, and then wind up in theaters for a little while, and then our broadcast, you know. And so this is usually less so you know, with streamers, but still with broadcasters do that, right? Is that usually there still isn't a month period of discovery, you know, I mean, back in the old days, right? You know, you know you might open a film in LA and New York, and five months later, you know, through word of mouth and things people would be able to chance to see it, and can't be Missouri, you know, yeah. But now, because of social media and things people get aware of, and it's like, you kind of have to, like, you have to cook things a lot faster, you know. And so that kind of more organic process of like, letting, like, the cream rise to the top, top, I guess, for lack of a better phrase, you know, can't happen, you know. So, in the sense of, like, everything's being juiced, you know. And so it's like, you know, somebody, everybody's picking the horse that they think is the one that those places want to be. But the thing about it is, like, a lot of the in, you know, years ago, the film that wound up in Kansas City five months ago, it's like it wasn't booked in Kansas City when the film was playing in LA or New York. You know, they are making decisions based on how it's being. You know, you're making adjustments based on the responses to the film. You know, whereas now you kind of have to have the playbook at a time, and just hope that, like, what you're guessing,
you know, comes to fruition. You know,
yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And it also makes my story a lot harder, because I think when I started working on it and I talked to my editor, the assumption was, well, you know, there's going to be one reason that things are that the way they are right now. And instead, I'm finding out that there's, like, about 50 different reasons, and they all have almost equal weight and but they're all leading in
the sort of same direction.
It's, it's like fun, and it's funky, and it's, I don't know, like this. I'm loving the story. I gotta tell you, man, it's just like, so interesting seeing how this isn't just like a trend story or something. It's like so many different little so many different little pieces. Yeah, that had led to, am I racist? Making 12 million bugs,
right? Well, I mean, to, you know, I mean, it'll be neat to hear what you discover, you know, because, like, you're getting a chance to kind of pull together these different pieces from different vantage points, you know, yeah, and you get it, you have a fresh perspective. So, like, your what your takeaway, you know, will be, you know, different. But I mean, with this idea of, Am I racist, right? I think the thing, and I haven't, hadn't really thought about this before, you know, because I'm often, I'm the kind of more art house in the film, documentary, space, headspace, you know. But you know, if you think about. That, am I racist? Is something that you would think wouldn't succeed in today's current environment, right? You know, because, in the sense of, like, have these long legs, right? You know, because people are often just like, moving on to other things, you know. And also, there's this argument that people don't want to go out to the theater to see stuff, right? Or, wait, you know, and or, also, there's this argument in documentaries, it's like, well, that documentary is just too much like the news and the current affairs. This is like, Well, I mean, like, how much have we heard about races? You know, dei racing stuff in the news. It's like, like, people are going to see this film. That's like, being talked about ad nauseam, the subject matter, yeah, in so much of the other news. So like, for people to then decide to leave the comfort of their own home, you know, to go see the theater, you know, is, like, you know, an anomaly that, like, it shouldn't,
it shouldn't be happening, yeah, in that way.
And, I mean, it just shows you how much of anomaly, because even those, like religious films that you're talking about, it's like they have a really big box office that opening weekend, and then they know they need to have it on streaming right afterwards to take advantage of it. You know,
yeah, yeah, it's interesting. It's an interesting game, and yeah, and I'm stoked to see what I figure out and who will agree to talk to me. You know, the writing and saying that you're with Vandy fair opens a lot of doors, but it slams some other doors shut. And even if you send an email saying, Hey, listen, I want to talk to you, and my mind is open to what you have to say. It's so but I am hopeful. I'm hopeful that I can get some of these folks to talk to me so it's not just a sort of a one sided thing,
yeah, no, it'll be interesting. I mean, people are mean, you know, obviously, you know, reputations are at play. And, you know, you know. But you know, I think everybody realizes that, you know what's you know. Every you anytime there's kind of like a difficult time in the industry, you know, everybody hopes that we can kind of remake it in some way, you know. And I think there's a hope for to do it, and it's just like, and hopefully people, some people, seize on the opportunities and like, look, I mean, some of the stuff is going to continue to exist as long as people are going to make money, you know, being able to do it, you know, yeah, but that doesn't mean that you can't carve out another path that, you know, People can choose to kind of walk upon. Do you? Do you follow Ted hope sub stack at all? Oh,
man, I was talking about Ted hope in a long time, you know.
So the reason I mentioned is like, I don't know if he fits with the sort of person that you want to talk about, but, you know, he is very vehement about the current marketplace, you know. And also, you know, chastising filmmakers about like, you can't rest on laurels. You have to be doing things differently. And he's a guy that's interesting because, you know, obviously going from an independent producer to being part of the beast, which he was a part of with Amazon, you know, and, you know, and I don't, I like, you know, in his newsletters, I think, you know, he kind of talks about, I mean, he doesn't regret being part of Amazon, because, I mean, he must have made some good money, you know. But I think at some point in time, he realized, like, you know, it wasn't, you know, feeding it like it might be feeding your stomach, but not the soul, I guess, or that you were adding to the problem, you know. But you know, he also has the perspective of, you know, he was the executive director of the film society here in SF international for a while. He He also had helped found one of the early archive streaming sites, fandom, yeah, yeah. But, you know, he's somebody that does not mind talking, you know, Oh, good point. Gives no fucks at the moment. You know, just given his age that so,
yeah, no. I mean, I just, I remembered that when he was with, you know, sfiff for like, I mean, I don't even think it was a year and I I forgot about him after that. So thank you so much for both him and for sending me rufo's way. I think he might be a really good person to talk to, too. Yeah, he might
just because he might even, like, be able to even just saying, like, what, you know, what this, what gives a play of that image. Because, like, Yeah, I mean, and he has no problems talking either, you know. Okay, you know. So if you have a hard time reaching either of them, just email me and I can dig out their phone numbers or email so that I think they're current. But I think it. Be able to reach both of them easily enough, because they, you know, you know, I think one of the things that's happened with the change of so much of the Society of Film is like, you know, part of being a filmmaker is a brand, you know, is you kind of have to be like an influencer, right? You know, you have to go out there and, like, share your your thoughts and things you know, which both of them have kind of embraced, you know. Yeah,
cool, cool. I will definitely talk to them. Thank you so much for the tips, and thank you so much for just like, sharing so many of your insights too. This is you've given me more than I could hope for. Yeah, no worries.
Well, thanks for covering the story. I look forward to seeing what you put together. If you have any things that you have questions about for research later on, or any other types of people that you're looking for at some point in time, feel free to reach out. And then, you know, we're going to launch our indie fest late here in a few weeks. So you know, obviously, if you want to come and see anything or say hi to Jeff and I, yeah, we hope to have some kind of fun documentaries, but also fiction films, that should be a good time. So, man,
I'm just so proud of Jeff that he's still hammering at it after all these years.
Exactly. Yeah, there was a time I think, you know, where, you know, is one of those ones where it's like, you kind of read the tea leaves that things are changing, you know, yeah, but I think the pandemic helped double him down, you know, of just the ideas like, Look, if I'm not going to be willing to do this when it's hard, you know, and other people weren't. And so, like, he, you know. So it's great. It's like, the challenge kind of, I think, refueled him in a way, you know, you know. And so that's what's always neat, you know, it's like, so that's kind of, you know, it's, it's made it fun, you know. And it just also, I think it kind of made them reevaluate about how important it was, especially because, like, in San Francisco, you know, coming out of the pandemic, you know, like, you know, one or two film festivals went belly up, you know, you know, all the big festivals, you know, cut their slates and I a slight thing. I don't know if this factors into the article or not, you know, but
coming out of the
the pandemic, most of what we call concert industry festivals, like Sundance, Tribeca, SF, international stuff, many of them have a lot fewer slots than what they did pre pandemic, right? So in the sense that, like the number of film now, they will, you know, particularly feature films, you know is so if you have a smaller roster of films, right, which is partly based on who's coming to see the films, you know. But also funding has been difficult, you know. And also, like, it's usually those you know, and people figure out other ways to kind of do business virtually. So like, if you think about it, I don't know what Sundance is this year, but like, let's say Sundance at one point in time, I think it had like 40% 60% of the slots coming out of the pandemic. Maybe it's 75 now, I don't know what the exact numbers are, right, but you know, if you cut down those percentages, that also gives less space for the number of films that kind of make the cut, to be discovered, you know, right? But also then with a glut of film, so you're like magnifying the problem, right? There's a, there's an enormous number of films that we're holding out, but now they're competing for fewer slots, sure, and so that, you know the, you know the, I mean, like last SF International is going to go longer this year, but last year, you know, the number of screens they had and the number of days they did the festival was surprisingly winnowed, you know, so everybody's still trying to read. A lot of these festivals are rebooting post festival, you know, to find what their voice is and what to do. But you know,
if you cut out the
the festivals are you cut out, you know, what can be programmed at theaters, right? Yeah, you're cutting out the legs of what a film can even jail, you know. So, like, you know, because even if a film does well, then there isn't necessarily an opportunity for it to take advantage of it.
Yeah, yeah. This totally makes sense. This totally makes sense.
I never thought about it, but of course, you're absolutely right.
Well, cool, we'll get channeling eveton and all the best of the story,
and have a great holidays. Yeah, thanks. You too. Take care. Bye. Bye. Take care. See ya. Bye.
