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Hey, I'm Jon.
And I'm Becky.
And this is the We Are For Good podcast.
Nonprofits are faced with more challenges to accomplish their missions and the growing pressure to do more, raise more and be more for the causes that improve our world.
We're here to learn with you from some of the best in the industry, bringing the most innovative ideas, inspirational stories, all to create an impact uprising.
So welcome to the good community. We're nonprofit professionals, philanthropists, world changers and rabid fans who are striving to bring a little more goodness into the world.
So let's get started. It's finally happening, Becky,
I know we got a good human in our midst today. I think I need to storytime a little bit before I intro Rob, but you know, we have this great friendship with the Stand Together Foundation. And I remember the first time that we talked to its CEO, Evan Feinberg. And he was telling the story of this incredible mission called The Phoenix. And as he's storytelling, how it came to be and how it has kind of franchised all over the country, we kind of put it on our ungettable get list and said we want to talk to this organization because they are looking not only at nonprofit differently, they're looking at addiction differently. They're looking at community differently. And we're just so delighted that we actually got to meet this human in real life, Rob Baumgartner, in Denver when we were there with the stand together team and we've just been, we've had the luxury of having so many wonderful catalysts on this program. We've had Positive Tomorrow's Unshattered, out of New Yorl, HANDY down in Broward County, Florida. And we're bringing the Phoenix on, because they are a national sober, active community that is just looking at the world differently. So I want to introduce Rob, he joined Phoenix as a member in 2008, and was hired in 2011. After a few years of volunteering as an instructor. And early in the organization's growth. He just wore a lot of hats. And I know that resonates with a lot of you out there and nonprofit. And he took a position as the Colorado program manager overseeing a program calendar, including 50 free classes each week, and collaborating across different departments. He's got this BA in Political Science from the University of Colorado at Boulder, and he's an outdoorsy guy, he is a climbing extraordinaire, and just find so much joy in working directly with the Phoenix's members. So Rob, get into our house, tell us your origin story. We believe that the lived experience truly informs our path. And we want to get to know like little Rob, tell us where you grew up. And what kind of led you to your work today.
Sure, sure. Yeah, I spent my childhood in Connecticut, but I've lived in Colorado since I was about 12. And in college, which was at CU Boulder, just really started, I started working at a bar a lot of friends and people I was surrounded with were people who drank heavily. And that was kind of, you know, for me a sense of community. But there was obviously some trouble there. And you know that that bar was a fun place to work. I spent 12 years there. But as I was getting a little older, you know, the problems started creeping into my life that were related to my drinking. And it was just so normalized to you know, be in a space where people were drinking heavily around me all the time, and ultimately had some consequences. I had a couple of car wrecks, including a couple of rollovers. And when I was 32 was the last day I drank. So that was a rollover accident that I was lucky to to walk away from, and really sort of the wake up call that I needed to find a new path or myself. And I was fortunate, just about right away to get involved in Phoenix. I was in Boulder, Colorado, where Phoenix was founded. And so I heard about it from an article in the newspaper and went and attended an indoor rock climbing class. I had been interested in climbing for many years and seeing people doing it in Boulder Canyon, and but I just never tried it. And so right away, it was something that resonated for me. I've been, you know, somewhat of an outdoorsy person, even in my drinking years. And in my youth. I was quite, you know, skier and all that. But finding a community of people who are interested in doing these things, teaching these things and then you know, not going to get a beer after was was pretty important to me early in my recovery.
I remember the magnetism of hearing about the Phoenix the first time you know Evan was sharing about it on the podcast because it's just this incredible organization that uses the power of community to like thread their mission into it of like healing and camaraderie and support and all the things that come with being in recovery together. And I just, I would love for you to take us back like I mean, take us back to really what it was like showing up because I know you're coming from such a hard space and maybe feeling like, separated from maybe relationships, or I don't know, aspects of life. But what did what did that community feel like whenever you found it? Because I feel like understanding that helps us paint a lens for what this mission really impacts the people that are walking in the doors?
Sure, sure. Yeah, the Phoenix is always sort of big community first, and the activities we do are really just sort of the means to that end of finding that community. Right. And so for me, what that looked like was, you know, most of my friends were people who were heavy drinkers and heavy users. And I was sort of in a new place as a sober person trying to find that. And, you know, I can remember we sort of talked about the metaphor of the 5000 pound door for new members coming into Phoenix. And I felt that very heavily myself the first time, I saw it on the calendar and drove to the Boulder rock club and was sort of scared and drove away, right. And it wasn't because I was scared of climbing. But I was scared of meeting new people. And, you know, alcohol, it's sort of always been a crutch in that regard for me. But when I finally came in, I think the following week or two weeks later, I got the courage to go check it out. I was immediately just welcomed by people who you could tell were genuine, in wanting to create community and just to welcome anyone who walked in through that door. Yeah, so I can remember, you know, my first climb that was a relatively easy one, just having people kind of standing around the ground cheering for me, and, but it really felt it really felt genuine. And I think that was super important.
Well, congratulations, Rob on your sobriety. I mean, that is a very hard fought journey. And it's just incredible what you've been able to do to pour into that, and I'm gonna, like, I'm gonna drop this because I feel like you're not gonna say it. You just climbed El Capitan last week. I mean, people do you know, like, what that rock looks like, if you don't know El Capitan, like a bullet. I mean, Rob has turned into a climber. And I love that it started, you know, at this journey. So just take our listeners in to the Phoenix like talk about your programs, talk about your ethos, and really what what you think sets it apart from other like sober living communities, or, or really other nonprofits who are playing by a really traditional playbook?
Sure, sure. Yeah. What we do, I think a little bit differently than a lot of other organizations in the recovery space, is we want to welcome people from all pathways of recovery. And so whether people are going to 12 step or whether they aren't, whether they've got a VIP into treatment, or whether they haven't, there isn't really kind of a program per se that they're sticking with to come to Phoenix, we just ask that people have that 48 hours of sobriety, and I think that welcomes so many more people into our doors, my personal experience was that I went to 12 step meetings for a few weeks or months when I first got sober, but it didn't particularly resonate. For me, lots of our members, it definitely does, and probably over half of our members do attend twelve-step regularly. But just having it be kind of a more open platform where you can show up as much or as little as you like, and it's always free, was super important for us. And then also just extending that welcoming grace to everyone who's new to the door, or new walking through that door and making sure that they just feel like it's a space where they can really be their authentic selves. I think it's one important thing that Phoenix does.
I mean, it's I love, you know, kind of the genesis of this place. That's part of your story. But also this idea that turned into a ripple across the country, because the Phoenix has now expanded a ton. So I want to talk, talk a little bit about the impact that it's had and kind of how it's grown over the years too.
Yeah, it's been really neat to see that and be a part of that. So when I first signed up, I was the 159, member of Phoenix. So it was a very new and very small organization. And about a month ago, I was just looking on some of our data and notice we had served 159,000 people. So three orders of magnitude from when I started. So it's it's been great to be, you know, part of Phoenix through that whole journey and see how that growth has happened. See how that organization has changed over that time. And also just to see the incredible impact we're now having across the country.
I think the thing that's just striking me so much about the Phoenix story, your story that you've hit on that I think is something every person listening has experienced that trepidation and fear of walking into a new place and not knowing anyone, whether that be a faith community As a social group, a new job, there is this trepidation of putting that first step out there. And it's a big step. And I think what's so cool about the Phoenix is, you recognize how hard the first step is to open the door and to walk in. And it feels like there is this culture of immediacy, when the first step is taken, someone is right there at the door. And the friction and the the anxiety and the what ifs what's about to happen, it gets disarmed so quickly, because you're seeing right away, you're connected with right away. And I just think there's something to that that is uniquely special that we could all do in our lives in many different ways. And I want to talk about just building community through shared pain, which is, I think, is something that a lot of nonprofits have to face. I mean, I think one of the great hallmarks of the Phoenix is how readily and safely you build community, wherever it is that you set down roots. So talk to us about your process of building a safe community. And really, how is that carried beyond the gym?
Sure, yeah, from the start, we we've had sort of an ethos, and it's changed in name over the years, but just sort of asking people to respect one another at events and what that looks like. And so at first, it was called the conduct policy. And then we changed it to a team member agreement. And now it's community standards. And we'll probably be called an ethos, and just sort of stepping away from maybe more regimented set of rules to just have in the spirit of those. But some of the things we ask is, of course, that 48 hours of sobriety that people are coming to events with, we want to make sure that people who are more in recovery or, or are sober or feel safe, that there aren't other people there who are showing up intoxicated, if people do that, we'll ask them very politely to leave and let them know that they're welcome back. And you know, in two days, basically, we also explicitly stated all of our events, that we don't tolerate any language, it's racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, otherwise threatening. So that's just put out there from the start. But really, that just comes down to treating people with respect. So those are a couple of the things we do. We've also got a couple other things where we ask people not to treat it like a dating club. So that doesn't mean you can't meet the love of your life at a Phoenix event. But if people are in there, sort of looking for romantic partners, that can create a vibe for some folks that, you know, you can feel that and it can be uncomfortable. And so we say those things right up front to folks. And we also just make sure that somebody's standing there to welcome somebody at the door whenever possible, right? So, you know, sometimes when we're looking for new volunteers, we get folks who are coming in, who maybe don't have hard skills to teach one of the particular disciplines that we we focus on, but we can say, Hey, could you come and just be a greeter at our events, and just make sure everybody who walks in feels welcome. Because frequently, we've got, you know, first time folks coming to most of our events. And so just being there to sort of recognize that, you know, often sort of deer in the headlights look, or just a little bit of anxiety that somebody might have, and sort of extending an extra warm welcome to that person making sure that they really feel like this is a space where we're I'm welcome here. And I can just be myself.
I mean, it's a small detail that just allows you to live your values. And I think of a conversation we had with Maggie Kane At The Table in Raleigh. And it's like, you know, they create this pay what you can eat eatery. But the most important position in the room is having somebody at the front door to just welcome anybody with open arms. And I think there's so much power in that and just putting intention around your values in that way. So I love that you specifically lifted that. What are like some kind of universal principles or truths that you could apply of how you have built this authentic community, to the nonprofits listening today? Because I think the community you've built is just a magnet, you know, and obviously, it is scaled, and it is still maintain its integrity. What are some core truths to be able to do that, whether that's in person or digitally that you found?
Yeah. So you know, sticking with that ethos, and sort of not compromising on that, that we just talked about is part of that, but also, how can we create spaces that are welcoming from people from lots of different backgrounds, right, so for me, you know, when Phoenix started, it started in Boulder, Colorado, it's known as an outdoorsy town. A lot of the disciplines that we first did, were things like rock climbing, triathlon training, you know, mountain biking, and things like that. But we quickly realized as an organization that wasn't going to be welcoming to everybody and nor accessible to everybody. So in order to try to make it more accessible, we found a space in Denver, we've got a brick and mortar facility there that we've had for I guess, over 10 years now. And we started doing more things like boxing and yoga and strength training classes. And these are all physical activities, right? So we've also come to realize As over the last, you know, several years that there are going to be folks for whom, you know, as much as we say, folks from all backgrounds are welcome, and all fitness levels. And we're really good at catering our events to people of all fitness levels. There's some folks for whom just the idea of a fitness base class might be intimidating. And so we've started offering things like music classes, we've always done sort of art classes and potlucks and Super Bowl nights and New Year's Eve and holiday parties and things like that. Sometimes those will get people in the door and they'll see the yoga class and be like, well, maybe I could check that out, right. But, you know, we've also expanded into team sports and doing pickleball and all sorts of things. So I think just trying to make it broadly accessible so that folks who, you know, are seeing this from the outside can see themselves doing the activities or attending the classes we're doing and it doesn't feel like a big leap.
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I just think making your mission so accessible in so many different ways is just really meeting people where they are in such a gentle way where they can plug in. And I think one of the one of the compliments I want to give you all is how well you tell the story, and how well you all lean in to each of your story. I feel like the addiction community has really taught me as a storyteller so much, because that story has always been the most vulnerable story standing up and speaking your truth, even when it's painful and ugly and hard. And using it as a way to step into your power and loving yourself, I think is a beautiful message. And we really feel like storytelling is the heartbeat of humanity around here. And I think you create a safe space for your members to tell their story and wear it as a badge of honor. So talk to us about how you all help architect this process, how you draw that story, what components and values. Can others learn from that, as they're drawing out stories in their own missions?
So in the recovery space, you know, I think there's there can be a lot of stigma around people just identifying as being in recovery. And and obviously one of the sort of components of 12 Step is anonymity. And we want to respect that if people hold their own anonymity, but I think one thing we've done different differently is from the start, you know, we sold shirts that said sober on them, right? And a lot of our members will just wear this shirt. And it's amazing to me when I'm not wearing that shirt today. But when I do how many people will just walk up to you and ask questions about it. What's that about? Just a few weeks ago, I was I was walking through Denver and there was somebody standing there who was working as a car valet. I'm wearing my shirt he asked me about Phoenix. He told me, he'd been in recovery for six months, and we got to chatting and he's going to come to our gym soon, right. But I think being willing to talk about our recovery, at least for those of us who are on staff and things like that, we're not asking new members to necessarily do that right away. But it is part of the sort of general organizational ethos, I think, to just say, there's nothing shameful about being a person in recovery. And when we can show people, Hey, I've got this sober shirt on, and I just finished a triathlon, right, or I just climbed this, this route. I just, you know, played this game, I lifted his weight above my head, whatever it looks like, it can change that face of recovery, because so many people have this image in their heads that that isn't accurate, right. And so giving people that opportunity to do that is one way that we've done that as an organization, it's sort of a pushing people gently in the direction, right? I know, you know, for me, it never occurred to me to not talk about my recovery publicly. And I think that's because I was part of Phoenix so early on. But, you know, for our members, it's not a push, you know, but if we're taking photos at events and say, Hey, are you okay with push putting this on our website, I think a lot of people will say, You know what I am, right. And it kind of helps foster that sense that there's, there's nothing to be ashamed of here.
Love it.
I love that example. And I feel like you're kind of leading us into this, because we love to bring up the topic of ethical storytelling. And that's like baking in the dignity and making sure that that's centered of how we kind of live in these places. That's so hard. I mean, with could be trauma inducing to go back to our storytelling, or it could just be triggering in some other capacity. How have you found like, the best way to honor people and and lift their own personal dignity, and be able to storytel as a nonprofit, or maybe some advice around how y'all have done that?
Yeah, I mean, I think comes down to being a good listener and hearing that story authentically. And, you know, sharing when you can empathize with what components of it makes sense. That's maybe on an individual level. How we do that as an organization. I mean, I gotta say, Our founders, Scott strode is a master storyteller, and I probably can't compete with him. But he does that very well. And, you know, being a public face and willing to do those things in public, I think just kind of helps other people potentially come out of their shell and be willing to share publicly.
Yeah, I just commend you all, I think you've taken a playbook for nonprofit flipped it upside down, you've baked in community so beautifully and humanity into it. And the fact that it's franchising, that's what I'm calling it, I don't know what you call it, but it's like they're popping up all over the place, which means that it's become a culture, and it's in a place of proximity. And so I just think if you're someone listening to this, and you know, of someone who's struggling, and I just think it's a built in very safe community, and you have so many chapters, I mean, tell us how many chapters you guys are up to now. 159,000 members?
Yeah, I think we're in over 40 states. So I just looked at some of the impact numbers on our website. But I think we audit those quarterly. So they're a little bit behind. I saw we were in at least 42 states in 160, some counties. And I think we're in like 78 cities. So those are chapters where we offer programming. And we've really made a push toward empowering volunteers over the last couple of years, it's really enabled us to do that. So people can sign up through our app and just go through a brief orientation, and volunteer to lead programs themselves. And that's really been the sort of thrust of how that most recent expansion over the last couple of years has taken place. We do have brick and mortar facilities, I want to say about five places across the country. But that's really not necessary to have a Phoenix chapter, right? You don't have to have a building. All you have to have is either a partner gym that's willing to use their space, or even just a trailhead, and somebody who's willing to meet people there and lead a hike once a week, right. We also have virtual programs that you can do online. And we I think we have dozens of those every week. And so those are another way that people get introduced. If there isn't an in person Phoenix activity happening in their location.
I just picture this and this, this comes to my head a lot sometimes talking to people especially on the ground floor to organization like you're so early, but it's like it'd be really easy as a founder early on to like hold on to the original expression, especially when the intersected your life so much, that as you're allowed more people to step in and make this mission even more vibrant and more inclusive. It's allowed it to grow so much bigger and more beautiful than I think it would have if you said no, we're a rock climbing gym and Boulder, you know, it's like we meet at the trailhead down the road. Read in probably Oklahoma City or wherever it may be. And I think that's, that's just really beautiful. And something that I think we could all apply and look for, how are we opening our hands to letting the mission take those kinds of shapes, like what a cool way that y'all have grown and express that way.
I really liked what you said, Jon, just about the adaptability piece. And I also think that you as a lay person listening, whether you have family or you know, someone in recovery, I just think that this is an issue. And something where everybody can pour into it, I'm thinking about Unshattered, we just had Kelly Lyndgaard, and she shared that her women have such high barriers for people believing in them, and giving them opportunities. And it's like, I think that this is you're starting at the ground level, and you're doing the hard work. But it's like once they get into that space of safety, I really think it's on community to encircle that group. Give what you can open up your network, you know, go volunteer, go climb with somebody, sit with them, and let them share their story that is part of the healing process. And I just think there's there's a role for everyone to play here. So we love story. Clearly, we've asked you a lot about it here. Rob, we're wondering if you might be able to take us back and share a story of philanthropy that that has really touched your story of humanity that just really enforced your belief and good people's are one that kind of lifts to the surface for you.
Yeah, and just one thing, you you said there, I wanted to just tie back to something our founder says a lot, which is if we believe in people until they believe in themselves. And so I guess I'll tell you two stories. One, one ties into that. And that really has been my story of Phoenix. And so for me, a lot of the time in my career, I've had doubts about my role and sort of a sense of imposter syndrome and things like that. And I've been moved up into different roles that at first I thought, I'm not sure I can handle that. But people had faith in me and showed me that I could do it. And that's been important to my career, too. In terms of an individual story, I just heard this the other day from an instructor on my team. So he had a member who had come in about a year and a half ago. And when he opened the door, he just said, Hey, how you doing, and she burst into tears, and was breathing hard and crying and really couldn't answer him. And so he said, you want to just come in, have a seat, and just We'll talk when you're ready. And she sat down and he said cried for you know, close to a half an hour. So we checked in on her once or twice, just made sure like everything was okay, she kind of nodded. And eventually, she sort of had the courage to chat with him a little bit and tell him a little bit about her background. And I don't want to share her name. But she's been coming to our events regularly, including yoga and climbing. She's learned how to not only be a good climber, but also how to teach other people skills. And she actually reached recently reached out to us about the possibility of teaching a women's climbing class, where she's going to start as a volunteer over the next couple of weeks. So I just think that's amazing that somebody had that level of strength. But that's that level of change in their time at Phoenix just from being welcomed, and greeted truly warmly. And being told it's okay to just sit here and cry.
Wow, ripple, ripple, ripple. You know, like what a beautiful story and testament to yells mission. Well, at the end of all of our podcasts, we always give you a chance to share one good thing and I'm like, we get to talk to the guy who's just casually on El Capitan last week, scaling it, I'm gonna listen, when you say here's a piece of advice, or a mantra, or something that really is a North Star for you that you'd share with our community.
So one thing this, that Becky mentioned a few minutes ago, sort of led me to thinking about this too, but not being afraid to try new things, I think is a big part of it. Right? It is so easy to have a fixed mental model of what your organization might look like. Right? And, and that can apply in your personal lives as well. But I think, you know, early on, when we started talking about doing boxing and CrossFit classes, I was like, that's not Phoenix, you know, we like to box and we do like, you know, rock climbing and cycling and these outdoor things. And that didn't feel like Phoenix to me. And I think a lot of us had a mental model for a long time that team sports might not work because we'd have this sort of, you know, one team against the other and there'd be a competitive sense and there was a winner and a loser. But we've been shown by folks who stepped up and started basketball classes and things like that, that if you do it, right, it doesn't have to have that feel to it. And so, constantly stepping back and re examining and being willing to say okay, it doesn't have to be done the way that I think it has to be done is really important to success as a nonprofit or in life.
Hmm,
Boom. That's how it is.
Preaching to the choir here, we love that.
I know. And he's talking growth mindset. And I just think you're sharing a lot of wisdom, Rob, and I just think what a good human and I love that you found your place in this world, I can tell from the look on your face and the joy, like the relaxed nature of your carriage when you talk about this, that you just love what you do, and I so appreciate you coming on and sharing the mission of the Phoenix tell people how they can connect with the Phoenix, where are you on socials? Or if they want to talk to you? Where can they find you?
Yeah, the best way to connect with the organization in general now is our app. So our operations team over the last year has built and developed this app that is incredible, that allows people to find all our classes, classes that are near them sign up directly to be a volunteer, if they are a volunteer, they can just create classes directly through that app. So if you just search the Phoenix sober active community or Phoenix sober community, he'll find it in the app store Google Play. That's the best way to get in touch with us. Our website, the phoenix.org is another great way to get in touch with us. If people want to reach out to me directly, they certainly can. That's just rob at the phoenix.org I've got one of those old school really adopted.
Well, I mean, what an honor to just get to hang with you and so much respect for the work that you're doing in this incredible community that you have galvanized like it is a beautiful, beautiful mission.
Thank you. And I feel very blessed and lucky to to to have been a part of it. Right. I wasn't the starter, but or the founder, but I was there early on and to get to be a part of and help. Help the organization grow over the past nearly 15 years has been really important to my life and my recovery.
Well, you're an incredible ambassador and amplifier for the mission. And we're just rooting you on in every possible sense. Keep going. And I can't wait for one to open in Edmond, Oklahoma. We'll be there at the ribbon cutting and celebrating.
Well take a look on our app. You might might search. I mean, there might be somebody leading a volunteer event near there now and if not, you could do it.
You're brilliant. Keep selling. Yeah, have a good one. Rob. Thank you.
Okay, thank you so much.
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