Most butterflies, either the adults will hide like little holes and crevices in the trees or the crystallized state, the pupate, they will be able to withstand the cold temperatures, monarchs can't. So they physically have to migrate to Mexico every single winter. So what's interesting is on this migration route, it's about 30, some 1000 miles, Illinois is smack dab in the middle of it, it takes about four generations of monarchs to go from Mexico, up towards Canada, when they get to us here. They'll be in roughly that second to third breeding period. So we play a critical role because they're landing here. And they are trying to get that next generation to make the final push of the journey farther up north.
The population of Monarch butterflies is dwindling in Illinois, which is a concern because these migrational creatures are important pollinators which contribute to the overall ecosystem? What is happening to the monarchs, and how do we fix it? This is random acts of knowledge presented by Heartland Community College, I'm your host, Steve fast. Today's guest has studied the monarch problem, and says that keeping an eye on our local ecosystem is important. And that the methods to save them on our require insights that are taught everywhere from early childhood classrooms, to even outer space.
I am Dr. Julia ostler, I am the Associate Director of the Challenger Learning Center at Heartland Community College.
Tell us a little bit about your background, you said your doctor, Giulia, so what brought you to Challenger Learning Center.
So I've been a college professor for some time now. And as part of that, I found I did a lot of outreach work. I love teaching science. And I also love teaching science to the community and engaging with the public to provide sources and education on the things that we're doing through research and academia. And I was just finding more and more that I loved that aspect of my job, I saw that there was an opening at Challenger Learning Center that would allow me to do that full time. And it was a big transition for me, but been loving that change ever since
when people think of the Challenger Learning Center, I think they maybe think of the space element of it, of Mission Control that they have there of the missions that they conduct, the spacecraft that people can take part in, when astronauts are in space, there's a lot of different things that they do that are related to life on Earth. I know that challenger kind of enact some of those experiments and learning opportunities for kids. Can you tell us a little bit about some of those?
Yeah, so challenger is a fantastic place. It's this immersive experience where students really get to understand we always kind of advocate for you know, think like a scientist, when you come to challenger, we immerse you in this environment where you are the scientist. So one thing that scientists do is space travel is not about just going into space, it's also about understanding how things act and behave out there. So we do a lot with life sciences and physical sciences, there's so much going on up there. So for us, at Challenger, really one of our goals is to build students ability and being confident in STEM, sometimes you hear that we're like stem and like like the hair raises on your arm a little bit scared and afraid of it. But really a science is just amazing. And being confident in it having students be confident is what allows them to choose those career paths, see if that's into their everyday lives. So we try to find really unique ways to integrate different aspects of science into this immersive experience. So even up in space, they will do different tests and different experiments to see how plants respond to understand how humans respond, how our cells change, even our DNA. So we try to bring those life science experiences into challenger to so that students understand just how much stuff is really going on. When we say You know, you're going to be an astronaut, there's a lot more to it than just getting into space.
So one of the things I know that is a concern, thinking about space travel is a food and growing things. And for many, many years, that's been a recurring element of the experiments they conduct to see if you can do things like germinate seeds in space. And the process of the life science element of it is if you are in space, you have to take life support with you. And that is not only just the ability to breathe, and for your muscles not to atrophy and all the other things that are unique, but also to eat. So I know that there is an experiment that challenger goes through with kids that involves germinating seeds. And before you know what you're looking for in space, I think you'd have to know what you're looking for on Earth. So could you talk a little bit about this? I think maybe you've worked with the Field Museum on something in evolving this in how we see seeds germinate and how we see the lifecycle work here on Earth. Yeah, absolutely.
Part of my work, as you kind of alluded to back in my academia days was working with the Chicago Field Museum, they have been doing a lot of research into understanding the monarch population and how the population is changing over time. Part of the reason why that population is currently declining, is because of a loss of habitat. Monarch butterflies specifically rely on common milkweed as a source of not only nectar, but that's where the female monarchs will lay their eggs that turn into caterpillars and become the butterflies again. So as the milkweed has been declining, so has the monarch population. So the Field Museum started this project with US Fish and Wildlife, to really start to investigate an Illinois what's happening to our milkweed when you look at the data and the map, it's really hard to see where it is, they're milkweed in Illinois, there was no good database to go to for that. So they started this amazing project, looking at Chicago first and kind of seeing where in Chicago is their milkweed? And then where could we plant milkweed. And then they brought that project down to Central Illinois that Mike collaborated on with them looking at kinda like the same question, just instead of Chicago now looking at Central Illinois, where could be plant milkweed. And part of that conversation is that you can't just throw milkweed seeds out into the field, you want them to be able to germinate be successful, to make sure that they grow. So part of it is also looking at how milkweed seeds change what makes a successful germination, you know, I could go out to my backyard right now and throw some seeds out there, doesn't mean they're gonna grow. So it's some fun questions of why aren't they growing everywhere, too. So a lot of work just kind of looking into the monarch habitat, to hopefully understand if we can figure out what's going on with their habitat that might explain some of their changes in the population number. So we do a lot of really fun experiments with students at Challenger Learning Center, looking at plants as what we call like a model organism. So to understand how a system works like plant germination, we typically first pick a model organism, a model organism tends to be pretty robust, pretty easy to go pretty easy to work with easy to find lots of them. So they're not rare. They're common in a population. So then with the students, we always encourage them to experiment. And that's where that competence piece comes back in. So we want them to experiment and kind of see what changes the germination of a seed. germination of a seed happens when a seed takes in water, it starts to grow on the inside, and eventually it bursts out of its seed. So we always encourage students to walk through one of our experiments that we have for them is thinking, How do seeds germinate in space? How does that vary? So we let them pick variables, change the settings, change the parameters, and that's where that competence really starts to build with them. Because they get to be in that immersive scientific experience, where they are changing a variable, see what happened, and then have a conversation about it. And we always advocate and tell them, there is no wrong answer in science. So we have some cases where students will find their seeds didn't germinate, and they get really upset, and they're like, it didn't work and I failed or like, that is the best result ever, when something doesn't work. Because that's a huge piece of the puzzle, like you just solved a really big piece. That variable is not what's changing germination. That's one off the list, I can think of like 1000 more variables, we got to test till. And this is what our scientists at NASA are faced with as well, too. They go through all these different experiments, and you do so much work. And then there are so many times where you find there was no effect, there was no change, there is no difference. Those are not the stories that get published, obviously, because that's not like the really fun news headline. But then that's a really hard lesson for kids to understand when they're doing science experiments. The most common result we get is what's called a null where there is no effect. But from the scientist perspective, that's one of the most exciting ones. Because now I know for sure what's going on better with that puzzle piece. Again, with challenger. It's great that they can come in and we've got everything set up for them. And they get to be the scientists, they get to really see what is it like and get that confidence of I can do STEM. It was really fun. It's really exciting. I want to go do this at home now.
Yeah, I think it's interesting when you're talking about the situation, the monarch butterflies, to look at all the possible things that could be affecting it. It's not just one easy to identify issue. When you talk about habitats. Well yeah, I guess those can change quite a bit. You know, when you get back to the source being milkweed there's weed right in milkweed. So growing up with people selling herbicide in Illinois milkweed That sounds like a bad thing.
You can't see it. But I'm banging my head against the wall right now, because I get that comment all the time. And it's no one's fault, but it's just it got named horribly. So milkweed is actually not a weed, but it grows really fast. And not a lot of things like to eat milkweed. So from an outward appearance, it does look and behave like a weed. So when I was working with the museum, one aspect of the project we had was actually focusing on the social science. So talking with the community and of talking, especially with our farmers, and having conversations with them, because there was a lot of concern of if we were to plant milkweed, near farmland, it might go into the crops is going to take over, it's a weed. So having those conversations on how do you control the growth to direct the growth a certain direction as opposed to letting it come into the fields? A couple of pollinator plants have that behavior where larger herbivores don't like to eat them, because the taste is like a little bit sour to them. So they look like a weed, they kind of behave like a weed. But we're at this weird conundrum where they're really important for pollinators, but they look like a weed. So do we pull them? So again, like as a scientist, lots of conversations where the topic isn't? I'm right, trust me, it's a conversation on, let me know what you're seeing what you're experiencing, and we can have a dialogue about it. And that's another thing we try to advocate for with the students that come to challenger. Like once you have your data, your information, we don't give you a rubber stamp and say, Done solved. Now the next question we have actually practice is communicated. So explain to a general audience. What did you find what was interesting about that, and we like to sometimes play devil's advocate a little bit and when they're feeling competent out, we can be like, Are you sure is that is that a good result? Explain to me why it's a good result, and kind of let them have that experience of like, okay, this is my data, I can own this. But I got to have a civil conversation back and forth about it still milkweed especially it's so essential for the monarch population. Unfortunately, common names do not always reflect the scientific name and the behavior of the plant.
As you mentioned, finding that one piece of the puzzle can help get the scientific study along the path to look into the next thing. And one of the things just in popular communication that did resonate people was that monarchs seem to be becoming endangered, something that, you know, few decades ago, were incredibly common. Was this the case that I think when people hear that they think, oh, monarchs are dying, but they're migratory? So is it that the monarchs in your studies were dying? Or is just that they were not coming back here to our area? And we weren't seeing them as much?
Yeah, that's a great question. And that's actually another common question I get a lot. So Central Illinois, we're in a really unique position. So the monarch butterfly, they are one of the few butterflies that cannot survive in winter temperatures. Most butterflies, either the adults will hide like little holes and crevices in the trees, or the crystallized state, the pupate, they will be able to withstand the cold temperatures, monarchs can't. So they physically have to migrate to Mexico every single winter. And they go to a specific for force that's high enough up in elevation where it's a little bit cooler, but not too cold. So there's enough moisture and water to keep them fit. And then in springtime, that population will hatch and they'll come back up north again. So what's interesting is on this migration route, it's about 30, some 1000 miles, Illinois is smack dab in the middle of it. So Central Illinois, literally a central Illinois center. It takes about four generations of monarchs to go from Mexico, up towards Canada. So that means they will have four different breeding periods. Illinois, when they get to us here, Bloomington, they'll be in roughly that second to third reading period. So we play a critical role because they're landing here. And they are trying to get that next generation to make the final push of the journey farther up north. So what we're finding there are some great organizations like Journey North that actually track the migration. You can see them in real time, kind of like a weather map, where they're migrating to and from. So you can see right now in Illinois, Central Illinois, Bloomington. Right now we've got a population that's currently passing through. So you might have noticed recently that there have been more than your average number of Monarch butterflies around. That's the migrating population going back towards Mexico. So what we're finding is when they are settling here on their journey across the migration, the lack of milkweed means that there are fewer breeding grounds for the adults to lay the eggs to become the caterpillar becoming the butterfly. So because we have lower numbers, we are directly impacting their success along the migration route. And we're not the only ones if you think it's for generations. That's are different stops for different locations where they have to find milkweed. If each location has less than less milkweed, then we're seeing fewer caterpillars, fewer butterflies every single time. So that was what kind of made the work that we were doing really interesting thinking about Chicago versus Bloomington, very different settings, but then trying to figure out how do you plant milkweed. And both of these really unique locations, that is done in a way that it kind of fits with our everyday lives, you're not, you know, trying to force people to plant milkweed like you want them to choose to plant milkweed. And how do you make it so it's a benefit to the butterflies as well as the residence?
Does it have to be milkweed? Or is milkweed just the most efficient source of nectar or pollen or whatever it is that the monarchs need?
Yeah, so there is actually a guy by the Xerxes society and they have a full pollinator lists that recommends what plants you can pollinate one. So the adult butterflies need the nectar source. So there are lots of great nectar sources, not just for the monarch, but for a range of pollinators. And those nectar sources, they bloom at different times during the year. So one kind of piece that we found on top of the lack of milkweed was also a lack of late blooming nectar plants. So right now, if you look outside, we're already kind of getting to that point in the seasons where we're seeing fewer blooming plants. But I mentioned earlier, we have a migrating population coming through right now. So they're not only looking for a place to lay eggs, the adults are also looking for food. So one piece of the conversation is having nectar sources that bloom during this entire migration route. So like right now, having these late blooming plants is a really big help to them. That's something they really need. And then the milkweed is essential for the caterpillars. So the caterpillars that hatch out of the eggs. Milkweed is the only source that they can actually eat, to gain enough substance to go into that chrysalis where they then become the butterfly. There have been a couple of reports, looking and noting that monarchs had been laying their eggs on different types of plants as well. And we are starting to feeling more confident about that's probably because there's just no milkweed. So they're laying their eggs wherever they can. We've noticed when they lay them on plants that are not milkweed, they tend to leave fewer aches. And when the eggs do hatch, there's a higher mortality rate. So not a lot of them are hatching out right away. When they're hatching. They're smaller. So there are some definite consequences to laying them on a plant that's not milkweed. why that's happening? We're not sure yet. But that was observations that came out of just work that we've been doing.
Do the monarchs find that there is competition for that nectar? You see a lot of pollinating plants attract different types of things. You see bees, you see other like moths and butterflies, is there a change in the population of these other insects?
Yeah, so these nectar sources, they are used by a lot of different pollinators in her area. So there's definitely competition. And then the kind of other side of that conversation is they're also declining. So we're at this weird sort of situation where there are fewer pollinator plants, we're seeing fewer pollinators. So the ones that are still successful, when they find these more rich nectar sources, they become a place of competition, there are only so many places where you can find lots of rich nectar, especially right now. So that part of that competition also drives down their numbers.
What can people do to help out with this? I don't know if, as you say, it's kind of a Goldilocks situation with milkweed and planting it to get it just right. Do you want people to plant milkweed? Do you want people to provide other resources to help out monarchs? Or do you want people to stop using things that maybe would kill these plants?
So I was approached conversations on what can I do from a really like pragmatic lens. So I get that not everyone is going to be a like science nerd like me. So for people who are like, you know, this is interesting, what can I do at home, I was kind of start with a great way to help us is become a citizen scientist. So especially now in terms of COVID, and we're all kind of remote and distance from each other. There are great online applications you can download to your phone, and you can help us track the butterflies and track the milkweed because we're still trying to figure out how much milkweed is actually in Illinois right now Fish and Wildlife, they are having conversations to decide should the monarch butterfly be put on the endangered species list? That decision is supposed to happen in December, the scientists advocated for gives a little bit more time because we're still trying to make sense of all the data and get more data. So we're always asking for help from citizen scientists help us track what we're not seeing. So there's a great app called I naturalist and then another website journey north. On both of those, you can use your smartphone and you can actually tag anytime you see milkweed snap a picture and up blowed it. And then it tags like with the geo data in the background. Anytime you see a monarch population drifting North is great for reporting that. So it will actually tag where the butterfly was found. If you think you found a specific peak migration, a peak population, you can even submit that and let us know I think I found a peak. And even if you're not sure, we'll look at the picture. And we'll be like, That's a peak or that's not a beat. So even just if you are comfortable going out and just getting pictures with your smartphone, that is a huge help, because it lets us know what's going on around us. Another great option for anyone that's got that green thumb. But here's the word milkweed. It's like I don't want a fast growing plant in my backyard. Like I'm not digging this. I always advocate for right now, end of Season, go to local stores and get a giant pot, fill it up with soil and actually Plant some milkweed seeds in there. Now let them sit outside, they actually need to go through a cold period for their germination to work. And then when spring comes, you will have milkweed contained in a container where it does not spread out into your other plants. So I've had people have made those into displays, they'll have the milkweed and pots kind of like lining their sidewalks to their front door around their backyard. Even now if you're feeling that you want to try some germination experiments at home, a great plant that will bloom in the fall is saw tooth sunflower, it's super fun because it grows upwards of like five feet. So especially if you have kids at home, and you're trying to find something fun to do with them right now in terms of COVID. It's a great flower that will grow pretty well. It likes full sun, and the kids can see it grow and see just how tall it gets. And they're going to be shocked at how big it gets. And it's a late nectar source for the pollinators. So they will really appreciate it too.
When you are trying to teach kids a little bit about how something like a seed works. How do you simplify the entire process? How do you connect that information with the life cycle to younger kids?
Yeah, with our younger audience, we first start with a really big seed. So we use a lima bean, because it's really big. And the first thing we try to get them to understand is the seat has everything on the inside. So the inside has to undergo some chemical reactions to actually produce the food to make the radical which will be the young plant as it starts to pop out. So a really fun experiment we do is taking a lot and being and then we set it up to soak up a lot of water. And what's really cool is as the bean starts to soak up, the water actually swells. So it starts to grow in size. And over time, the kids can literally see that face change. Once that happens, then there's really cool stuff you can try to do with the seed. So one thing that a lot of little kids won't know is that seeds have a really good sense of what's up and what's down. So as your seed starts to germinate, it's going to know which way is up kind of out of the soil. So if you were to turn your seed upside down, it knows. And it has a strategy for dealing with that, which is really cool to watch in person and the kids will be like, how does it know? And even some of the adults are like, wait, no, really, how does it know that that was up versus down. Some of
the things you're talking about seem to be well suited to studying from home. As we're recording this, of course, we're still in the middle of the pandemic. And kids can't always go back to school and learn things hands on the Challenger Learning Center has a lot of hands on in person activities. But those are limited right now, because of the status of the pandemic. So I know that there are a lot of things like this that require not a whole lot of investment, and time at home that challenger is providing remotely and I know that there's a Community Day coming up. So what are the types of things that kids might be able to learn through a remote class from Challenger Learning Center, and the types of things that are going to be offered. As we see things not changing in our environment, health wise in the immediate future.
teaching science and any sort of setting is always challenging. teaching science remotely is a whole new world for all of us. So what we want to do was to help kids at home especially we wanted to give them that same hands on experience and immersive feeling. So even though they're not a challenger with us, they still get that think like a science scientist to give them that competence to make an experiment and how the experiment failed. So we are putting together different kits that have at home experiments you can do that will be led by our flight directors that would normally work with them in person. So with these kits, they will reflect a lot of them right now that we're building reflect engineering practices. So thinking about if you are going to build a rocket, what does your rocket have to look like? What does your rocket have to have on the inside to make it work? So letting students experiment with making a prototype of a rocket, different atom experiments to teach them how to navigate by using constellations. That's a great one to go outside with the family and again, it's still led by a Flight Director at the Challenger Learning Center. But done remotely. Obviously, my favorite one that I'm super like geeked about is build your own rover. So one of the programs we will be offering as part of this vacation to space. So build your rocket, navigate through the stars. And then once you get to your destination planet, build a rover to explore your planet. And we give a lot of wiggle room, if you will to let the students design their own rover that will actually move using no motorized parts. So we try this as a team and my rover failed miserably. But it was so much fun because became a challenge like so like me mighty like parent, like what would your wheels look like? And what was your like foundation looking like and trying to like get ideas off each other. So again, these really hands on immersive experiences where kids are still going to be able to learn stem, but they'll be able to learn them remotely. And they'll still be face to face with one of our flight directors. But they're also not going to be glued to the screen. So the video is going to be there so they can hear the flight directors but they'll be experimenting working with these kids coming back to the screen like I did it this way. What do you think, and then go make changes come back again. And it's great. We had the parents in mind too, because we know it gets hard when you've got to work and you've got kids running and doing stuff. So we also made them really easy for the kids to use based on their ages. So lots of instructions. Everything is labeled really clearly with lots of pictures and guides. So the activities are not written with the attention of there's going to be adults that are next to you. It's the intention of there's going to be one of our flight directors leading you through this immersive experience online.
Julia, thanks so much for taking some time to talk to us today about the monarch butterflies and the other things that are going on at the Challenger Learning Center and some of your own background and research studying how to solve problems.
Awesome, thanks Steve.
jeulia ostler is the Associate Director of Challenger Learning Center on the campus of Heartland Community College. If you'd like to hear more interviews about education, science, or other topics, subscribe to random acts of knowledge on Apple podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you found this one. Thanks for listening
