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Hello everybody. My name is Dr Jones, and welcome you back to the next episode of the thoughtful counselor Podcast. I'm really excited about my guest today. Today I have with me Dr Joseph Campbell, and I want to tell you a little bit about him. He received his doctorate in counsel, education and supervision in 2017 from August University Chicago. He began his work as a school counselor, providing consultation to programs in Chicago. He's experienced working with clients and individual and group counseling modalities. He currently serves as a counselor education coordinator at Henderson State University. He holds a counseling license in Illinois, Arkansas and Nebraska Dr Campbell is a national board certified counselor and approved clinical supervisor by the National Board of certified counselor. His research interests are on multicultural and social justice issues surrounding clients, counselors and communities. He's also an advocate for wellness concepts, for longevity in a counselor and counselor education field, and just excited to be able to have him with us today. So Doctor Campbell, glad you're here
today. Thank you for having me. Well, one
of the things I usually do whenever I bring people on, the first question I always ask is Tell me your story about why you became a counselor. For me, that's always interesting for me to hear,
ooh, why I became a counselor. Well, it was kind of interesting. My uncle was actually going through his counseling program, and he would talk to me, we had great conversations about the mind and how people function, and just what was going on in people's lives. And so he always told me, just think about it. You know, there was something that you might want to think about doing sometime later. So fast forward, got out of undergrad and got everything together. I was working at a Gamestop, and I knew that I wanted to do something different, but I didn't know exactly what I wanted to do. Kids will come in every day, you know, have the video game system plan. And what I did was I started to set up a homework program like, alright, I'll turn on the games as soon as you finish your homework. And so some of those kids will be in there from literally, I think school probably let out about 233 o'clock. They'd be in there from 315 to about eight o'clock when we were getting ready to close. So I had them in there, and I figured, do something that's worthwhile, so I set up a little corner for them to be able to do what they needed to do. And someone said, that was really cool. What you did, like, why don't you go into teaching? I'm like, Nah, I can never be a teacher. I don't think that my mind and my mouth are right places for me to be a teacher, like, but there's other things that you can do. What about counseling? I said, Well, I can look into school counseling. Went started a program at Concordia University for school counseling. Had my first class, fell in love with the field, just literally head over here with the field, and I knew that there was something that I wanted to do. Fast forward to practicum and internship. I was like, Okay, I'm almost done. Everything is going right. And I was talking with one of my colleagues, and there was another counselor that came in there, and she would just constantly refer out people that looked like me and that bugged me, that bugged me relentlessly, and it was like, Well, why won't you work with them? And when this school, if they referred them out, they would have to see an outside therapist before they would come back into the school. And I know that that cost money, and for some of the students that we were serving, that money wasn't there. So students would be out a week, two weeks, even three weeks at a time. Now they're that much farther behind to be able to get to where they need to. So I sat that I sat there and I thought about I said, you know, I can reach so many people, but if I teach the people that reach the people, I can reach so many more. So that helped me with my decision on whether or not to go get my doctorate degree talk to a couple of professors. One professor actually took me to the side and said, Okay, where are the schools that you're looking. Can add. So I showed her the school pamphlet. She was like, okay, she threw one on one way. She threw one another way. She said, you're going here. And I said, Okay, why this one? She was like, because I trust them. That's why you're going there. I didn't know that my journey was going to change course. So much started at the school going through classes, thinking to myself, Okay, well, I'll be able to teach a little, do some adjuncting on the side, you know, maybe start private practice. That'll be it. Then I got bit again by the practical and internship, the clinical training bug. Oh, and that bug, bit hard. Love the fact of seeing counselors go from one transition to another, that aha moment of now I realize I know what I'm talking about, and ever since then, that's been a passion of mine, seeing young counselors go from now, I don't know if this is right for me. If this is what I've called to do, I always say that it's two wonderful moments in a person's life. And this is something that my uncle used to tell me. I think it's a parable or something, but it's the moment that they were born and the moment that they find out why, when I see those students go to that why moment, it's an amazing thing, and just to be a part of their journey is worthwhile.
I think that's that's really neat hearing your story of where you came from, counseling wise, and which definitely I feel like connects into our topic or talking about today. So I know where we talking about the importance of mentorship and counseling, and one of the reasons why I wanted to be able to talk to you about that topic a day is, I know, with our wealth, known you for about five, six years now, senior conferences. We've coordinated together. We've presented together so many different connections in that way. But I think for me, one of the most important things I've seen happen just in my relationship with you and seeing how you connect with other people, was was recently at the conference in Arkansas, not too long ago, where there's a couple young men who are in master's program right now, and they are, they're really just like everything you say. They're just like they're listening to it because they see something about you that they want to follow. And I just, and that affected me on a real personal level. Because I'm like, Joe is doing something, doing something so positive. He has these masters students are excited already, and they're, I mean, they've only been in the program, not even a super long time, and they're already talking about PhDs and all this kind of stuff like that. I'm like, that's that's coming from somewhere. And so as we're talking about mentorship, I just want to, I guess, when kind of open up from least from that perspective, like, Why do you think mentorship is so important in this counseling field right now?
I mean, everything needs guidance, everything. But I know for me, it was important for me to have someone that kind of, or have some people that guided me along my journey, and I realized that I was lucky and blessed at the same time to have that not everybody gets that chance and gets that opportunity. So it's my way of giving back to the people that afford into me so I can pour into someone else. And when you see that potential, they don't see that potential. I mean, I didn't see it in myself to get to the place where I am. But it was others that said, No, you can do this. And they push me, sometimes shoved, sometimes kicked, but they they got me to where I am today, in in my way this is honoring them. So when I saw those young men, and I knew that they said, you know, Doctor Campbell, I'm going to come into the counseling program coming to city like, Alright, we're going to get you to where you need to go to and further than that. Well, what do you mean? Well, if you have a passion for this field, I'm going to support that passion 110% I'm not going to let you back down from it. I'm going to support you in whatever decision that you try to do. If that means that you want to go even further, I'm going to support you even going further. Don't ever think that I will not have your back no matter what decision, even if you decide to leave the program, go to business or go to something else, Imma have your back. Imma support you. I'm going to be your cheerleader and everything else to make sure that you succeed at what you want to do, because that's important to me. They ask, Well, why is it so important to you? I said because everybody needs a cheerleader. Every once in a while, everybody needs that person to say, You know what, you can do this and you're not alone. There's many of times that we do feel alone. And I think mentorship is is that piece of not feeling alone is banding together with someone, someone that has gone through those processes, have seen these things, have run into those troubles, to help out the next generation so they don't have to go through the some of the same pathways, some of the same just stone walls that that's that's why I think the mentorship piece is so important, is to make. It make a way that's a little bit easier than you had so they can go even further than you can. I mean, it's accolades and everything else when it comes to mentorship are great, but my biggest accolade when it comes to that is seeing my students succeed, seeing them go way past what I've ever dreamed of, hitting things at a younger age than I've ever thought. That's that's what I when I think about mentorship. That's what I think
about. And I appreciate your perspective on how you look at mentorship, because I know that for a lot of places and we talk about mentorship is a very like a very formalized process, which I'm not against formalized mentorship or anything like that, but it's been neat to watch you as you have done mentorship. It's been on a very informal level. And I mean, we could be on her all day if I start to start naming people, so I won't, but it's always been interesting to see how you kind of you work yourself in and out of spaces with people, and you're not like you said. You're not really there for things for yourself. You're there to cheerlead for other people. And I just think, for me, it it takes a lot of, it takes a lot for someone to to be in those spaces and always cheer for other people, knowing, okay, what I'm doing is going to impact not just them, but it's gonna impact all the people around them too. So I'm just, I'm kind of curious for you what, what kind of motivates you to kind of want to be in those spaces.
Well, the reality of it is that my time on this earth is limited. It is so the reason why I want to be in those spaces is I want to create a pathway for the future. So I want to do my part for the next generation. My part is creating those pathways for them so they can create the pathways for someone else. I want to see that little person, because I was that little person at one point in time that they said that they weren't going to be able to do this, that and the other. I don't want anyone to go through that. So if I need to use all my extrovert energy to make sure that they have a pathway to get to where they need to go to. That's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna support them. I'm gonna support my friends and their endeavors. I'm gonna be there even if I'm the only person in the room, I'm probably gonna be the loudest person in the room. I'll make sure that they know that they are heard, they're seen and they're loved. And I
think that's and I think it's powerful for somebody who's on the recipient of of that on the other end, because, once again, not everyone has those people that surround them all the time. You know, it's and once again, it's not a bad thing if someone does have a lot of support and things that nature. But I think it sometimes it almost feels a little bit more important when it may only be those two or three people. Because, you know, okay, I may not have 10 people surrounding me, but along with these two or three show up that that's that's important. So there's that quality over quantity piece there that I'm hearing University talking about. Oh
yeah, I think, you know my grandma, you say you only, only get a couple of really good friends in life. You'll have many associates, but you'll have few friends, and was that I think about my educators and the folks that really took an interest into who I was, they didn't stop at whatever grade it was, even my I would never forget Miss Princess Palmer, my eighth grade teacher, who passed away years ago, she would constantly check up on me every single day of high school, college, when I got my masters, when I got my doctorate, she was and she would call me Doctor Campbell when the moment I hit college, and I'm like, Oh, that's not going to happen. You going to be a doctor. She pushed, but she did it in a loving and supporting way that I knew that I can do it and sometimes, and I'm lucky enough that, yes, I have my family to be able to support me, but there are some that that don't have the family to be able to support. So it's the family that they make that are able to support. And so it's those relationships with mentors, with friends, with colleagues, that push that pushed me to be able to do and achieve what I wanted to do, even going out for different positions, some things I would never think that I would ever be be able to do and it, someone says, Yeah, you can't watch it. Just go ahead and try for it. Oh, you know what? You're right. I'm gonna go ahead and try for it. Then Amazing things happen. And so I appreciate good people such as yourself even pushing me to be able to be a different version of myself that I didn't think would be there.
So how, when you think about the counseling field right now, and just where we are as a as a profession, when you, when you, when you think about mentorship, where are you seeing? Those things show where you Where are you seeing, at least from your perspective, good mentorship showing up right now. I.
Uh, see that? The thing of it is good mentorship, to me, doesn't show up in some of the programs, necessarily, like the big mentorship programs. There are some that there's great mentorship that ends up happening there. But the mentorship shows up when you're walking around the conference and you see that, uh, that student that's walking by. Then you see someone, a colleague in the field, pulling them to the side, like, hey, you know what? How you doing? I see you walking around since your first conference, and see that you got the tag says your first conference. My name is Dr, such and such. Tell me about yourself. What program are you in? That's where the mentorship happens. It happens in those little pockets where it doesn't, it doesn't necessarily have a a full program behind it, but you get the chance to meet the people that are right there. You get the chance to see those students that are just and I'm smiling because I'm picturing them right now as they're walking around the conference in all, because they're seeing some of the people that wrote the books that they're reading right now, and this that the other and then you get the chance to be able to say, oh, you know, you want to meet Dr Sachin Saj here. Let me introduce you. And I remember even at one of the conferences, even taking a student over there to introduce them to you, when we were talking about telemental health counseling and things like that, saying, You know what? I know somebody that's really good for you to talk to here. Let me introduce you to Dr Michael Jones. You know, he's an expert on telemental health counseling, does this, that and the other and they were like, wow. Like, did you act like you knew me, but you didn't know me? Like, no, it doesn't matter. You are a member of this field, you're a part of our future. So I'm gonna make sure that our future is taken care of. That's where the mentorship happens. It happens in those little moments where they don't expect it, or even, like an email that I received today, one of my one of my older students, contacted me and said, You know what? Dr Campbell, I passed my NCMA CE, and I just want to tell you thank you for everything that you did. I'm saying I didn't do anything, but just support you. That's all I'm going to do. But I'm here whenever you need me, anytime that you want to talk. My door is always open, my email and my zoom, and to me, that's where true mentorship happens. Yeah, I
gotcha. So how, when you think about mentorship, and I know it takes energy to, you know, because even though you said it's informal, and it may be at the conference, and it may be at other places you run into people, it takes to still takes time and energy to do that. So how have you found the balance there in being able to help people do the things they need to do, and to be supportive of them, but also, at the same time, make sure you're taking care of yourself.
So I create a schedule mostly, and I try to be there Monday through Friday. You know, if it's from 10am typically, until about nine, 9:30pm but anytime this after that, that's my time that that's time with my family, weekends, their time with my kids, unless there's an emergency that ends up happening, which my family luckily knows that if, if there's an emergency with one of my students, it's a priority to make sure that they're okay. But once they're okay, it's back to them. So it's important for me to be able to spend the time with them, to be able to recharge my own self. Because again, how can you pour from an empty cup? And that's kind of what my philosophy has been in trying to mentor as many people as I can, is that I want to make I got to make sure that my cup is full to be able to pour into them before I can do anything else. So having that Zoom scheduling software and everything like that has been beneficial because it has kept me in line like, Okay, nope. I can't do this because I have this meeting and this meeting. So phone calendars and zoom scheduling best things in the world.
So I'm thinking, you know, you mentioned about, you know, either newer counselors or even even, like students, and I can understand it, you know, being that position at one point where there can definitely be some intimidation factors when it comes to maybe even approaching somebody, even about mentorship. So I'm kind of curious, what advice would you give to someone who maybe is seeking mentorship in the counseling field, but they're not really sure how to even approach somebody about that or even to even receive that mentorship, whether it's formal or informal.
Well, the best thing I could say is start local. So if you're in a program, find a professor in your program who you can relate to. Also find somebody that's in the state that you can relate to, so your counseling associations and things like that. Even find somebody outside the field that you can talk to, that that knows a little bit about what you're getting ready to go into, but not necessarily everything you. That way you have that mentorship on different levels for different people that understand different parts of who you are. What was told to me was have somebody inside the field, outside the field and outside the state, so that way you can have a diversity of thought. And I've stuck with that because it is true, having somebody inside the field, because this field is huge when it comes to its understanding of different things, even when it comes from state to state. So having someone inside the field and outside the state makes a big difference to kind of see what that world is. The most courageous thing a person can do is leap into the unknown. And it takes a lot of courage to be able to go up and say, You know what, I'm seeking, mentorship. It does, and it takes a lot to be able to do that. So when someone for a student, I commend them first and foremost, if I'm able to mentor them, or if I, if I know somebody that is able to mentor them even better than I I could, I commend them on the courage that it takes, because it's stepping outside themselves and saying, hey, I want someone to help guide me in this that that showing a vulnerability that we don't get the chance to see a whole lot of. Even in our field, we see it from our clients, but we don't necessarily all the time see it from our colleagues. So having a young counselor, a young student, come up and say, Hey, can you show me what it takes to be into this field, that means a lot. That's something that's special. Well, the young counselors that I would tell them, you need someone to show you the ropes. Don't do this by yourself. This field, if you are by yourself, you won't last long. This field is full of relationships, good, bads and indifferences, but it's still full of relationships. Yes, definitely, you need to have a tribe, and I think that we've talked about that quite a bit. Even personally, you have to find your tribe. Your tribe is the one that supports you in this process, whether it's a mentor, is mentors that are inside that tribe, as well as colleagues that are inside that tribe. Because iron does sharpen iron. You find the right people that sharpen you, you're going to sharpen those people too to be better for the community that you're getting ready to serve. So just take the courage to be able to do it, and just know that that courage is going to pay off dividends in the future.
Gotcha, I think for me, growing up, when I heard about mentorship, I was always taught there's like, least for me, there was like, three different levels of mentorship that want to make sure I find somebody that is, it doesn't have as much experience as I am to make sure that I'm in a role, why I'm mentoring them. And then that second level was making sure I find somebody who is at a very similar level as me to have that mentorship role, or it's kind of like a peer mentorship. In that third level is find somebody who's who's already the place I want to be so I can be so I can be mentored by them. I'm kind of curious if you agree with that or not. Would that be a good kind of model to kind of start with?
It makes me think of the idea model for supervision and that, because that probably is on my mind right now. But I think honestly, with mentorship, yeah, that the model does make sense of what you're talking about. I think it's unique to each person and what they are seeking. What is your purpose for finding this mentorship? What do you want to gain out of it, and what do you want to give back to it? Those are questions that a person needs to ask themselves before getting into a mentorship relationship. So it's not just about, oh, well, I want to learn about this. Okay, that's great. But what else do you want to get and what do you want to give to it? Because as a mentor, I can't be the only one involving in this relationship, similar to a clinical relationship. I can't be the only one talking the client's going to have to say something. Mm, hmm. And same thing with the mentorship. Where does that piece come in. So in that same mindset when it comes to my own personal mentorship and how I like to do it, similar to the Bernards discrimination model, I like to switch my hats and switch my roles, because there's a point in time that they're going to need me for certain things, but there's a point in time that they just want to talk and they just want to collaborate. And I'm I'm great with that, because I can't wait to see who they mentor next. Because the just like with supervision, in a sense, you tend to supervise how you were supervised, the goods and the bads, the things that were done great for you. You tend to copy the things that were done bad to you. You tend to block those things. Same thing with mentorship, the good ways that you were mentored, how you felt, how you interacted, those things you're going to copy to the next person that you mentor, the things that you did not like and what you were you felt that you missed, you're going to make sure that that next person doesn't miss it. And so you. It's it's important to know what the purpose of why you're doing something and why they want to do something. Sometimes, I've been in different mentorship programs where they have a mentorship contract. Then I did some that are informal, and I tell them, like, hey, as a mentor, you know that you can contact me whenever that you need I'm not going to hound you. I may check up in on you once a month or something like that, but I'm not going to hound you when you need me. You call me. And it's surprising how many people take that choice and like you really didn't hound me. No no, because this is your experience. This I want you to have what you want out of this experience. This is not for me. I'm happy to be a part of this process, but it is not for me to make this decision of how we're going to communicate. I want you to do it because you are going to take the pilot seat in this and it empowers them at the same time to make these choices and make these decisions, to find out what they want to do, and it's it's worked out so far. I mean, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Yeah,
and it sounds like you're saying that when it when it comes to mentorship, there is a cost for not only the mentor, but also a person who does being mentored too. Because you're right that, yes, you're getting this mentorship from me, or we're having this relationship, but there's an expectation that when at some point you're gonna be doing this exact same thing for somebody else down the road, and so I think that's the cost that some people don't always realize. Okay, I don't, I don't mind working with you. I don't mind doing this mentorship with you, but it may not cost you anything financially, but it's going to cost your time, because I'm going to be investing in you with the expectation that you're going to be spending this time, if not more, with somebody else down the road.
So one of my past times, I do like to garden a little bit, so I like to grow stuff. That's the same thing with mentorship. It's planting a seed, and that seed is going to plant, that seed is going to grow. It's going to grow into a plant that has seeds with it that keeps further planting and further planting. If you go back to what I said, why I got into the field, you know, I want to teach the people that reach the people that's mentorship, mentoring, the people that are going to reach more people that way this world can be a better world for my kids, my grandkids, my great grandkids, and so on and so forth, because I do want to leave this place better than what I received it. And I think that for any really good mentor, any really good person, you want to leave a place better than what you received.
It sounds like you're talking about impact there. I mean, that's what it really sounds like you're looking at. Okay, if I just like to gardening, you're impacting so many different people through through the mentorship. So it's not and once again, because those relationships grow, those build, and it affects people. And it's not just that their professional lives, you're getting into something. You're getting into their personal lives as well. Oh yeah,
because I think that many times that we've been taught throughout our education that those two separate, those are two separate pieces of life, that your personal, your professional, you have to keep them separate well, even as a counselor, counselor educator, a father, a husband, a son, you can't keep those separate. You are always going to be those at one time. You know, yeah, I'm not taking off a hat and putting one down. So with that being said, I'm always going to be those things. So it's going to impact someone's life. Because when, when you believe in a person that's never felt someone believe in them, that's going to impact them professionally and personally, because now they're going to think I can do more than what I initially thought I could do, or if I don't think that I could do it. Doctor Campbell thinks that I can do it. Doctor Jones thinks that I can do it. What do they see that I don't see in myself? And that's bringing up awareness. So when they see something in someone else, they can give that same awareness to them.
So I know, I know we've been talking a lot about, you know, just mentorship in general. When it comes to the counseling field, I want to kind of boil it down as little even make it a little bit more targeted. You know, being an African American male in counseling and also in counselor education. You know, there's, there's not a lot of us who are in this field. So I'm kind of curious, you know, when it comes to specifically with what black men, what has kind of been your approach? Well, I guess mentorship wise in that area.
So first and foremost, I like to say, Hey, brother, it's good to see you, whether you a student or Well, I'm just a master. I don't care. It's good to see you because there's not many of us. And one of the things that I like to do, even with the students that are coming into our programs, when I talk to them, I. I end up having one on one meetings with all of our students. I let them know like, hey, there's few of us in this field, especially as black men, we have all these different things and stereotypes about how we react to this, that and the other. So please understand that you are breaking these stereotypes for a lot of people, even the generations that are within your household, because they don't think that there are many people that don't think that we are emotional enough or emotionally in touch with ourselves to be able to do the things that we do, and we are just as much as anybody else. We have a unique view that needs to be heard, needs to be seen and needs to be listened to. So and I know I said heard and listened to, because I know that they're two different thing. Yes, so it's important for them to understand like you're not only joining a field, but you're joining a brotherhood. You're joining a brotherhood people that we, I can say, in my generation of people and my tribe of people, we try to support each other as much as we possibly can, and that includes those young brothers that are coming behind us. So we try to give them everything that that we have had and stuff that we didn't have, to make sure that they know they're supported in this field. Because we remember those times being alone. I know you do. I know I do. I remember being the only brother inside of the the school counseling class. I was the only male inside of most of my classes going through all of my masters and doctoral degree. And that's a lonely experience, because yes, you get to meet people. Yes, you get you have the majority of of the faculty that we see may be men, but going through the process, you see very few black men. You see you don't see people that look like you. And that's important. That's why I want to touch bases with those young men. I want to make sure that they know that. No, I see you. I see what you're trying to do. Yes, I've had a similar situation in you and trying to get through this. But you are not alone, because I am here. I don't care if you live in Timbuktu or Toronto, I am here. I am a phone call. I am a zoom call. I'm a email away. I am here to support you however you need to, because you are now part of this brotherhood that we're going to make it better for the rest of the world,
yeah, and I think there's, there's a lot of power in what you're saying, especially when you're talking about individuals feeling like that, they're being seen, especially for sometimes, for many people, it's their first time feeling like someone in that same career field that they're in sees them as not necessarily about, okay, what work I'm doing, or Whatever case may be, it's just in fact, okay, you're someone else is recognizing the struggle that you've may have gone through, even though they may not look exactly the same, or any they may come from different places as well, but at the end of the day, there's a this recognition of I see you, I appreciate you, and I'm here for you throughout whatever you go through And for, and I've seen you work with people for and I'm specifically going back to that the beginning of the podcast. We're talking about the conference in Arkansas. And those two, those two younger brothers who you've been working with, it was, it was neat, kind of seeing from their perspective of okay, just how much you're just pouring into them. And I just and I just and I just said, I think that just speaks a lot about your character as a person. Because when you, when you're able to watch that on the outside looking in, seeing how, how you react to other people, and how, how people come away from and just like feeling like it invigorated and refreshed. Because, like, okay, this person sees me, and this person is poured into me. Is it to me? It's a beautiful thing to watch, because now, people get to experience that and be able to kind of watch that development, mental process, and like, I won't, I won't use any names or anything, but it's just no each year, as I see some of these people come back to conferences, it's just, it's fun watching, like, kind of being a fly on a wall and seeing your relationship with them and how it is kind of just gets deeper and deeper, because and you can do you can joke with them and all this like that, but you also going to say some very strong things to them, and they get from the place that it's coming from, because they know that you care about them. I think that, to me, that's that's an important part of that we miss in mentorship, is that mentorship can sometimes mean that I get called out on things and I get uncomfortable, but in it's necessary for that developmental process.
Think that what you're saying, first off, it's a beautiful compliment. I appreciate that, and it's the relationship I think about the butterfly. I mean truly it is. Growth is hard. Growth is not easy. When they have to break out of a chrysalis. They literally are breaking out of something. They're breaking, quote, unquote, bug bones, in a sense, to be able to get out of there, to be a different version of themselves, this whole process of them developing, whether it's a student in a master's program, student in a doc program, you are. Uh, coming into a new version of yourself that can be difficult for a lot of people. That be difficult for your own family, uh, one of the jokes I typically tell them is, like you going to get the Are you therapeu me? Are you? Are you doing this? Don't use your psychoanalytic powers on me at the dinner table, when you have when you tell people you're going into counseling, you're doing therapy, or something like that, and it's real you are you're noticing things. You're noticing historical trauma that has been going on in your family that no one calls out. You're noticing those things. But now, since you notice those things, what are you going to do about it? That's the big question. So part of the thing about the mentorship pieces and why we have those difficult conversations is now that you know better, you have to do better. There's no choice in that, because now it's not just you working on these things. You have, sometimes younger brothers and sisters, younger cousins, your own children, nieces and nephews. They're looking up to you because you are the catalyst of change. Now you've become that whether or not you want to or whether or not you don't, now that you know better, you are the catalyst of change. What are you going to do with it that can be empowering and can be scary? That's where I think we fit it. We help them with that change. We tell Yeah, the change is hard. You can make it through it. If I can make it through it, anybody can make it through I truly do believe that, and I tell them that, you know, I'm not the I say sharpest crayon in the box sometimes, and that's okay. But what I try to do is try to make sure that every other person that I meet, every other person that I touch with with words, with actions. It has an experience that is going to be that uplifts them in some way, shape or form. I want them to have a better day after meeting me than they did before. I want them to have a better experience. I want them to take away something that uplifts them themselves to be a better version of who they are. I want them to know the truth, but also want them to see the the power that they actually do hold inside of themselves to be able to be those change makers that we've talked about.
And I can, I can see there being people who may want to get into mentorship, especially in a counseling field, and there may be this kind of their own self doubt they have of I don't know what I have to give, or I'm not sure how really going to impact anybody else. What advice would you give them to be in that situation?
That's the most exciting part that you don't know. The unknown is the best portion, because that means that that that whole painting is blank, anything that you put on there can be the most beautiful creation in the world. I'm glad that you don't have an idea of what you want to do. Let's start that journey together. Let's look at all the things that are right in front of you. See what we come up with. Let's paint a picture that would be the best thing. Don't Don't worry about not having the most solid idea of what you want to do. Heck, my undergrad is in communications. How the heck did I get all the way to counseling besides talking, it wasn't a clear destination. I could not paint this picture, but I had others help me in figuring out what I wanted to put down on my own canvas. And that's what the mentorship can be for some of these people and for that well now for some, for everybody, it's helping create a beautiful picture out of nothing. I mean, every painter starts with a blank canvas. That's what we're doing. Let's start with a blank canvas. Let nothing be there. Let just the primer or whatever, even if we got to paint by numbers, if we got put the little bubble things in there, we'll do whatever that we can do to make that picture as beautiful as we possibly can. But it'll be unique, because it'll be their picture of their journey. All we did is just help them shape where they may go. That's it.
And the way you describe that, it just sounds like it's very natural and kind of freeing to kind of step into that, that mentorship piece. Because I think if we, if any of us, are waiting for a moment, it's okay, okay, now I should be a mentor. Then there's then we may miss that opportunity, versus just, kind of like just just go with it and just give what you give what you have at whatever point you are in life.
I agree. I mean, you can be a mentor. I think people i I'm sorry, similar to what you're saying. I think the people don't realize they're actually doing mentorship when they're just talking with folks, when you are providing service or doing something that's inspirational to someone else, that is a form of mentorship, whether you are a high school senior talking to a high school freshman and saying, Hey, as rough coming in, I know that is, but you can make it. You can do it. You just gotta take one step and just move one foot in front of the other. My favorite thing to tell them, because, you know, I watch a lot of movies, is was that Santa Claus is coming to town. What they said, put one foot in front of the other. Soon you'll be walking across the floor. Put one foot in front of the other. Soon you'll be walking out the door. That's the way that we do things. When it comes to counseling and everything else, you take one step. You're not taking leaps at a time. Take one step and it's okay. All you want is progress. I've heard my sons say that stuff to some of their friends. They're pouring into their own friends. That's that same level mutual mentorship that you were talking about earlier. So anybody can can do that. You just have to take a vested interest in something that is not you, putting the interest into something else, and know that there's no credit that comes from this. There's nothing like that. All it is is just wanting to see someone else do better than what they're doing right now.
And that's it's humbling to even even hear how you you're you're explaining that because you're right, if you go into it from a position or a place. So let me see what I can get out of it. I think I could be the first one to say you can probably disappoint it if that's if that is what, if that's your motivation behind it, but it's, I think it's that sincere, like you said earlier, that sincere want for other people to do better, even than what you did to me. I think it takes a to be a really good place to be able to be to say that also be okay with that too. Because, like, you know, sometimes people don't really want other folks to do much better than them. And to me, it's like mentorship is kind of a whole nother world that we step into. We're like, okay, the purpose of me being here is, I do want to see people be better than me. And if everybody had an attitude, man, things will look so much different. Counseling wise,
I can nothing but agree with you. I mean, it's, I think it takes a lot to get to that point, and for some people, they never reach that point in life, and that's okay, because that that might not be part of where their journey leads them. For me, there's been a lot of people involved in where I am today, and I appreciate that, so I want to make sure that to honor them, I pour into others so they can go further. I may be good at this, that and the other, but I want my kids to be great at it. I want my grandkids to be experts in it. I want my great grands and nieces and nephews to be masters of it, and it's not for me, because I want them to experience that joy of achieving something that no one else has, or that very few have. I told my kids, I don't care if you want to be a doctor or not, if you do great, if you don't great, I just want you to be the best version of you. That's it. That's all I want. That's always been my desire. As people have asked like, Oh, do you want your kids to do this, that and the other? No, I want them to want what they want. I want them to do what they want to do. I want them to be successful. I want them not to eat me out of house and home. I them, but I want them to be the best versions of them. That's all I want, and that's what I want for even my students, I want them to be the best versions of them, because they are the future. They're going to take care of us, and if we don't prepare them, then it's on us because we didn't do what we were supposed to do.
And I like that it is on us because we didn't, we didn't do what we need to do. I really like that, because that does kind of put things into perspective. Because, like you said, We're none of us is going to be around forever. Now, the work we leave behind, that that can that that can last, not necessarily mean the books or whatever the case may be. I'm talking about the words that we said, that stuff really gets passed along. Because, I mean, I think about my own life and people who have poured into me, I could bring those people up and say, well, this person at this formula. This person is this and I guarantee you know anybody listen to people, but listening right now, who know what are they talking about? And it's like, you may not know them, but I do, and that's what's important. And to me, I think that's that's that key point about mentorship is that that the time and energy that we are pouring into other people, it comes back, and it's never forgotten whether people realize or know who those people are. And I say it gets passed on, because I feel like the stuff that you're talking about, you're doing is because people poured into you, and now that you poured in somebody else, someone might never know who your mentors are, have any idea who they are, but they're experiencing something from that. And I just, I'm just fully convinced that the person that mentored you, somebody did the same thing for them. So it's just that part where it keeps giving over and over again and and, like I said, I'm just hoping, as people listen to this, they can, they can pull, at least pull that point out all this whole conversation. Yeah,
I the the imagery that you that came to mind when you were talking was about like fire and passion, you know, all this other stuff, names, bodies, everything. It will go away in time, but fire and passion has gone through generations and generations. Someone poured into the original first people that we've talked to work that stood up on two legs, and that passion has passed through into us because someone inspired them to inspire us. So without them, we couldn't be where we are. So what all we're doing is we're doing what we're supposed to do and pass it on to the next generation. That is our purpose. And I think that if we come with that mindset. You're right, the world would be a better place. It would be our field would be so much better than what it is that we can pass along not only our knowledge, but just the passion. Because things do change, but passion doesn't change that much, if you think about it, the the desire to want to help people, the desire to want to be a better version of yourself, it doesn't change much. How you get there can change, but that doesn't that whole fire that's within each and every one of us does not change. Now, how we feed that fire that can change. And I know I speak in a lot of parables and things of that nature, but it's movies and books and all this stuff have done a lot to help me get to the place where I'm at with this mindset. But I think about the old Indian parable of two wolves. Inside you, there's always two wolves that are fighting for dominance inside you. There's one that is ready to support and heal, and then there's another one that's ready to rip the world in to two. But the important part is, which one that you feed, which one that you feed? Do you feed the one that is going to support, or do you want to feed the one that is going to tear and rip the world apart. That's that passion. Which one are you going to feed? The passion that supports or the passion that does? I got you
Well, I I've absolutely enjoyed talking to you day about this topic, and especially on mentorship, if anybody at all that's listening to this know the relationship that you not have we're pretty hard on each other in a fun way. But I think for me, where they come from is the deep respect that I have for you, because I know behind the jokes and behind all the funny stuff that we do to each other, and it's deserved on both ends, the stuff that we do to each other, I know there's a deep level of respect. And for me, that deep level of respect that I have for you comes from knowing the type of person that you are and the the goodness that you're pouring out into the counseling field and just and just in your life in general. And I just wanted to say I appreciate you for the mentorship that you provide for so many people and and how that this is, this is something real for you. It's not just a quick conversation about, hey, what's black? This is, this is who you are as a person. So I appreciate you taking time out your busy schedule to talk with me about this today, and just look forward to meeting more conversation with you. So thank you for the work you do in our counseling field. I'm so glad that our paths have crossed and just looking forward to just more good things that come from our relationship, but also from the the mentorship and things that you're doing. So just want to thank you for that.
Thank you for the kind words. Again, yeah, we give each other a lot of flack, but you know, again, iron sharpens iron, so that's why we do what we do. All
right. Now you still owe me 20 bucks, we'll talk about that later on.
Oh, we certainly can. Yeah,
appreciate you bad.
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