The thoughtful Benjamin Franklin was a fan of public schools, libraries and mail delivery all fruit bearing pieces of a community of people eager to share and dissect ideas. Franklin is thought to have said an investment in education returns the best interest indeed, with the Kansas reflector today are Alia, floater and Scott Rothchild, with the Kansas Association of School Boards to dive into issues likely to be on the agenda during the 2023 legislative session that gets underway in mid January. Welcome to you both. Thank you. Thanks, Leah, let's start with you. You work in the advocacy role at KSB. Can you start by just outlining what the association is and who it represents?
Sure, Tim, we represent the 286 school boards across the state of Kansas. So each of those boards except for one has seven members. So we represent actually the largest group of elected officials in the state of Kansas, all 286 school districts. We also represent in our locals and co ops as well as some community colleges, but our primary focus is k 12. education, public curiosity.
What's the one that doesn't have seven members?
Fort Leavenworth because there that board is appointed by the commanding general? And it's only got three members?
It's an on base school? Yeah. Okay. Scott, what's your role with the association?
Well, I'm the Communications editor. I'm a reformed journalist, and that's right, came up through the Lawrence journal world for a number of years. Basically, I do a lot of writing, I do a lot of editing. I do some advocacy, kind of utility infielder at KSB.
So on the KSB website, you will you'll you'll sit there during the legislative session and write about education issues.
I'm on Yeah, I'm on social media a lot. For an old guy like me, it's kind of weird, but I enjoy tweeting out developments during the legislative session. So yes, please follow me.
Okay. The legislature based on the August primary, November general election will be a bit more conservative. I think the House and Senate remains in control of Republicans who have a two thirds majority capable of party line veto overrides of Democratic governor Laura Kelly. And judging by your first term, she isn't afraid to use the veto. I think the legislature overrode her protect perhaps about half the time, something like that. So to both of you, what do you make of the governor legislature dynamic in terms of education policy going into next year?
Well, I think it's obviously going to be challenging as it was last year. I do think, though, given the fact that the voters seem to be comfortable with a kind of a divided government, Republican legislature, Democratic governor, it makes me wonder if there might be some opportunities for the Democrats to pull some Republicans over into some votes that might be favorable for public education.
Scott, do you think that it's a hint that to the legislature, that people like centrist government?
Well, I think I think without a doubt people would like more centrist government, whether we're going to get that or not, is another question. I mean, once you get under the dome, and I think you've probably observed Kansas politics longer than I have. But, you know, we've kind of evolved into a very, there used to be sort of three different kinds of factions in the legislature, but we've evolved into really two. And so I think it's going to be interesting to see how much Republican legislative leadership whips its members and whether Democrats can pull up, like Leah said whether they can pull some Republicans over in the event that the Governor vetoes some bills, certainly
the loss by a Republican gubernatorial nominee Derek Schmidt must temper the legislature legislatures wish list going into this.
You know, one would think so but I'm not I'm not actually sure about that. We're hearing that there's going to be that they're going to come out of the gate swinging, that there's going to be, you know, vouchers, there's going to be all kinds of stuff. So I in some ways, I think they're doubling down. But you know, that's, that's based somewhat on rumor and conjecture. So very interesting, Jane. Yeah.
Well, we need more fodder for our news story in the 2022 session, and certainly in its aftermath, there's been controversy about Kansas as challenges with fully funding its share of Special Education Programs, k 12 schools. The state treasury holds a couple billion dollars in surplus. So were you for 4 billion. So you would think there wouldn't be a problem dealing with the underfunding of special education. Lea, you want to take a crack at talking about some of the chess pieces here? Well, surely what are we talking about and what kind of money sure might resolve this?
Well, special education hasn't been funded to the state statute since 2011. The legislature enacted a law in I think it was 2005. That said, we're going to reimburse school districts for 92% of the costs that they incur above what they get from just the general base state aid. And then federal reimbursement for special education, special education is a federal mandate. But then it's also passed down to the states. So the agreement was the the state government will pay for 92% of what the the extra costs of educating a child with disabilities or in Kansas, gifted children also qualify as special education. That's not the case in every state. So the districts would kick in 8%, the state would kick in 92% of the costs above the general education dollars, and the little bit of special education funding that we get from the federal government.
So that was the plan. What are we really at?
We're at about, oh, somewhere in the 70s, percentile 70% funding a statewide. Scott, some districts, you know, are only getting 54%. Scott, are
there any ramifications for ignoring a state law? I guess, if you're the legislative branch, you can get away with it?
Well, it's it's interesting. I mean, Lea mentioned that we're down in the 70s, as far as the percentage of additional costs, and what that figures out to be is about $160 million. We have something in the neighborhood of $4 billion surplus when you consider our ending balances plus our rainy day fund. So 100 and $60 million is in the 4% range of that surplus. It would seem like that would be a no brainer to fund that. As far as consequences for not funding it. I mean, we haven't seen any yet. But I think there are political consequences. I think you want to I don't understand why this wouldn't be a nonpartisan or bipartisan issue to fund special education to the amount that you have promised to fund it.
Well, the options are to do it, the law says you could rewrite the law, or I guess, continue to ignore it.
I think I think you've summed up what the session is going to be about. It's going to be about attempts to rewrite the law to say, here's a $10 bill, it's really 20 ones. But then there's going to be maybe an attempt to rewrite it in a way that we count other weightings that that are provided in the school finance law, we count those within special education. So there's going to be a lot of, to me and again, yeah, I mean, to me, it's you find it to the amount you said,
Yeah, I just almost gone through there because you use the word weightings, which is part of the very, very complex school finance formula that nobody understands not even legislators, some of them. And so you just be aware of that. I'm going to Gong you next time.
If you want to take that out of the broadcast. That would be fine. That's
alright. So so let's let's think for a second. Do we really think the legislature is going to stiff, these particularly vulnerable children in schools? Do we really think
that could happen that that seems to be the plan. And I think the thing that has us doubly concerned is that if the legislature doesn't fund spared doesn't fund special ed, then school districts have to pull that money out of their general fund because special ed services are mandated. So if we don't provide those services, parents can sue.
So maybe that's the argument. The school districts are flush with cash, they got the money, quit playing game. That's right. And you just fund it yourself. And it's taken care of.
Yeah. Yeah, I think that's like Leah said, these special education services are mandated by law. And Kansas does a good job of providing those special ed services. And we are we are proud and wanting to do that. But what what the legislature is doing by not fully funding it is taking the money out of general ed, the local districts have to make that money up. All this money you hear that we're getting under Gannon is being eaten up by that, by that diversion of funds. So that's why it needs to
be entered as the latest incarnation of the school finance litigation. And that points to another issue in the 2023 session, and it's whether the legislature will comply with an inflation adjustment in terms of state funding of public education that was cooked into the previous settlement of that Ganon case. You know, with inflation unexpectedly high do you think lawmakers will balk at this because that inflation factors are only going to click?
I think they're gonna balk and you're already hearing that but I think it's what's important for people to remember is that inflationary adjustment is the average of the previous three school years inflation. Okay, so if it's 8% now, but it was 3% last year and 2%, the year before that, you have the average of those three years. So it smoothes that out. Yeah. So that's one lottery number it moderates it. And also remember, we're not going to have these high inflation rates forever. So so, you know, to say, oh, you know, oh my gosh, inflation is so high or Oh, my gosh, we might have a recession. And so we can't fund schools. Well, you know, recession is temporary. The impact on kids education is permanent. And so when you've got $4 billion in the bank $155 million, 160 dozen per year, per year. Yeah. Doesn't seem like too much.
I asked that question in the context of that the fact that Kansas Supreme Court retains jurisdiction over that Ganon lawsuit, which means I think they could just convene a meeting and fast track any kind of court rebuttal to a law passed by the legislature modifying essentially Ghana? I mean, you're not going to have to go through years of litigation to get it back to the Supreme Court?
Well, like you say, it's, it's still under the jurisdiction of the Supreme Court. So I think you're right, I don't think it would take years and well, decades, really, that it took like under Montoya the previous, it's gonna think
the Supreme is hung on to it, because they were tired of resolving previous lawsuits only had the legislature properly fund according to the agreements for a couple years, and then punting. And so they got sick of that. And so they just kept the case.
Well, I think that was their experience and Montroy, they released jurisdiction, and what a year or two later we went to recession, and the school funding increases, stopped.
Yeah, yeah, we're going to have a new attorney general Kris Kobach. He'll be replacing Derek Schmidt. So do we think there'll be a different attitude about litigation and public ed? Oh, no,
that's a good question. I don't know.
Maybe he'll be too busy suing President Joe Biden, as one of his campaign pledges to be a thorn in the side on your dance President United States?
Well, what did he say? He said he was going to sue, he was gonna sit down at breakfast every morning and try to think of how to sue Joe. So maybe you could sit down at lunch and decide, you know, how to address schools breakfast
must be a lot more thought provoking than mine are, during the trip
to wonder to I mean, I've heard some, some legislators and some former legislators saying, you know, there might be a lot of churn and, and drama and anger expressed about the inflationary adjustment. But to really open that back up and to poke the court like that, you know,
I mean, again, that this is an agreement we made. Yeah. And, you know, I don't think you should be able to renege from those agree that would be calling
the Supreme Court's bluff, as in, they won't take over the schools or they won't close the schools to stand up for this settlement. You know. Also, during the 2022 elections, were a Republican governor, candidate for governor Eric Schmidt. He was critical the governor for the exit of teachers from the profession, if I remember correctly, was that on the mark unjustified? What? What are we gonna have going on here with the teaching profession in Kansas?
Well, you know, it's a profession that it's it's, it's really whipsawed in the past couple of years. Remember, when schools first shut down in March of 2020. And everybody was like, Oh, my gosh, it's true. We don't pay teachers enough. Let me buy you a case of wine teacher, if you will come back to school, we love you, you know, and buying booze. They were they were I was seeing people in Target going this is, this is for the teacher. But now, you know, they're accused of being groomers. They're accused of indoctrinating kids. So, you know, the teachers I know, are exhausted. Pete, you know, parents are in their face, literally and figuratively, over over any number of of real or imagined issues. And so, you know, I don't? I would, I'd say I, from what I know, from the teachers that I talked to, it seems to be more about just the general churn in society, and really the disrespect for the profession.
Yeah, there's been a very long standing approach by conservatives to public education who want to tear it down. So they can, I think, put more money into private education, but to derive the educators is one way to do that. And so, you know, ironically, I just think it's, they're pointing to frailties of public education, at the same time, they're trying to tear it down. Do you get that sense, God?
Well, I think there is kind of an assault on public education, and maybe there always has been I don't know, but but, you know, going back to an earlier thing you said about, you know, whether the legislature would call the Supreme Court's bluff over school funding. I think we've seen this in the past. I mean, the legislature tried to call the school, the Supreme Court's bluff in Montroy. Schools when they when we had the Brownback tax cuts, I think the reason those were reversed First was because people saw that those were going to injure their public schools. And I think if this session proceeds into a standoff over funding or, you know, things that may or may hurt teachers, I think legislators are going to find out Kansans like their public schools. You know, there's always sort of this anxiety or angst about the school system in general. But Kansas parents, the schools that their kids go to, they usually connect with those teachers, they connect with those schools and Kansans believe their public schools are theirs. And so I think, I think the legislature, I mean, I'm not, you know, my advice is worth, you know, nothing but I don't think you mess with Kansas public schools.
How significant is the teacher shortage?
Oh, my gosh, 1000s of physicians statewide.
I mean, we went on a statewide tour that we usually do and teacher retention, and special ed, were one and one a, you know, the top issues on state universities and
others have schools
of Ed they do. Way down? Is it Yeah.
Because people just don't see it as the maybe it was viewed as kind of a public service. And if I'm gonna get bashed as a contrast, or somebody who is just trying to gin up the race wars, you know, I can go, I can go sell insurance instead and not, and not have to carry that home with me.
And unfortunately, you see, you hear a lot of teachers who now have kids who are coming up in school, and they're telling their kids don't become a teacher, because it's not worth
it. And it's not only teachers, it's the whole staffs within like the parents and people like that. I mean, if, if you can go work at, you know, McDonald's or Walmart and make 20 bucks an hour or something. Why would you be a para? And
yeah, those part time era professionals who are assisting, they would be like, you know, I guess you could call them teachers aides, but whatever. They're in classrooms, working with students, particularly students with disabilities and things like that. They're just being that extra adult and eyeballs in the room. And they serve a really important function, but sometimes they're pretty low paid, and that's their consequences.
We heard a week or so ago. I think the Johnson Ken Johnson County has 450 openings for paraprofessionals. The screening districts within Johnson, what do you think are the
consequences of that? What's gonna happen? Well, you have to choose somebody on their own.
Yeah, yeah. Do you have or in some cases, you might have a special education teacher, you know, who's certified, gone to school, licensed, but they're having to fill in for paraprofessional, like if there's a kid who requires a paraprofessional and extra adult with him throughout the school day. Sometimes that parent, that special education teacher has to become the parent because there's no peer available. And so that then the kids aren't, you know, getting the full benefit of having a special education. But
what are we going to do to recruit and retain good educators? Well,
we have to, we have to fund special education, and we have to fund general education.
So salaries is fabulous. Are there other elements that would entice people to stay? I think the retirement benefits were considered pretty good. But maybe there's something there.
What do you think now? I think I think there's things just the whole, I think we just have to lift teachers up. There's so much negativity brought by certain special interest groups against public schools. And I think we just need to turn down that so kind of dial
back the teacher bashing, because it has, it's hurting people, right. Okay. Now, the thing Derek Schmidt did in his campaign for governor unsuccessful campaign, so you criticize Kelly for exodus of students from public schools and 1000s during the height of COVID-19. Were not enrolled, there were options, homeschooling, what have you, you know, some percentage has come back. So what's the extent of this shortage? I think enrollment is still down from pre pandemic levels. But where are we at? And what kind of students are coming in?
Well, I think I think we have approximately just shy of a half a million public school students. And then when the pandemic occurred, I think we lost 14 or 15,000. So since then, last year, and this year enrollment has gone back up by a few 1000. We are not to the pre pandemic rolls. This has happened in private schools, too. So, I mean, I know there was criticism during the campaign, but this is something that happened. I believe in every state in the country because COVID
were the students did they move to Utah, or are they? Are they being homeschooled?
Some of them I think are being homeschooled. There are other students who have decided to take advantage of virtual schools, which several several of our school districts have, because some kids and some families found that that the virtual option really did work for them. I think most kids and most families would prefer to be in the classroom. But there are kids, especially if they have a particular talent or avocation, you know, if they're a very talented orchestral student, and then they participate in elite performances, or I know there's one virtual school that has a ton of kids to do high school rodeo. So they're roto rodeoing, all week. So they, you know, they're able to fit their classes in virtually in a virtual school, and then also do their rodeo or their violin or whatever it is that they do. And so some kids have found that and, and their families have found that, that the virtual school option does work for them. And so some of the districts have expanded their virtual school offerings, I
always thought with our children that it was important for them to be in, in a school environment. Because there's cultural issues, there's people different from you, there's people that talk with different languages, and you need to deal with adversity and real life as you grow up. So I just am a little skeptical about this homeschooling alternative where everything's online. But, you know, whatever. people's choices, homeschooling
is different from virtual schooling, because the virtual schools have an actual accountability and they have a curriculum that they follow, where as a homeschool, you just have to register and set up Tim's homeschool. And then there's really no oversight or accountability. I
don't put me in charge, fear for the future, have anything to do with the future of our youth? So Leah, you could you kind of touch on? I know, there's a state law regarding open enrollment. And this is allows students at their discretion to move schools school or district to district can you kind of explain that, and maybe KSB has some ideas for improving that?
Well, actually, I think more than 80% of the school districts in Kansas already have some sort of process where they usually will accept out of district students, you know, if you've got a kid who you know, really wants to take your coursework, then and you've got room for them, then you let them in, or you know, there you live in District why, but the Parent Teachers in District X, and so they just want to bring the kid over with them. And they can all be in school and working in the same district. Most, most districts have some sort of process where they will allow out of district kids in. You do have a few districts that have decided, you know, we're very, we're a quick, fast growing district, our population is exploding. These are usually in the more popular Poppy who lies to areas of the state. And our taxpayers have decided we don't want to let people in from outside because we're the ones who pay these high property taxes and for good schools, and we want to, we want to keep that as our local choice. The the issue around this open enrollment law that was enacted last year, which really doesn't take full effect until the 2425. school year, is really about I guess, okay, well, forcing schools if they didn't have a policy on open enrollment, to enact one. And really what it was about was kind of, is it's another step in the whole so called school choice program. So they couldn't, they really couldn't get a voucher bill through last year. And so, you know, it's okay, well, we'll do open enrollment this year, make districts come up with this, you know, complicated thing of, you know, you have to look at every classroom, in every district, every classroom, in every school in every district, and calculate whether you're going to have capacity or not. And then set, you know, and then set your policy based on what you believe your capacity will be. So it's a lot of busy work, and it's a lot of kind of anxiety. And that's, you know, that was, you know, one of the continuing salvos in the so called school choice. Campaign, and then, you know, the next thing we'll see is vouchers.
So we'll get the vouchers in a second. But Scott, do you think what can be changed about this is the idea that school districts really should have more authority to say no, yeah, I
think I think that was the the basis of our objection to this law was not that open enrollment is bad. I mean, obviously, a lot of our districts do that. But that, you know, in a lot of these policy areas, the question becomes who gets them Make the decision. And we have
locally elected school boards to do that. But we've also got elected legislators who like to parachute in and wave the magic wand,
right? Yeah, we got to get rid of those parachutes. No, but But I mean, and then and as Leah explained the situation, I mean, there are situations where local districts, it would be to their detriment to have open enrollment, because they're bursting at the seams. And so, you know, we just felt like, this is a provision that was, you know, another mandate from the legislature, when really, it should be up to the local school board, listening to their local constituents, and they should be the ones that make the decision. So, I mean, our policy is we would like to see that provision repealed. I don't think that's going to happen. But you know, we just feel like it's a local control issue.
I could. Well, I know school district administrators don't need another reason to do paperwork. But I'd be very interested in knowing what's the demographic of the people making these transfers. So are they wealthy kids moving from one district to another? What's the minority headcount of people making this move? I think there's an issue with the cost of transportation to a district where you can't ride a bus, you're gonna have to have private transportation to your new school. And so maybe that would be a limiting factor?
I think it would. And I think the transportation is a perfect example. I mean, I guess if the legislature wanted to equalize it, or make it more equitable, they would have provided more transportation funding to transport those students. But that wasn't done.
Now. There's other tentacles that we don't have time to get into, like, you know, cherry picking athletes, but maybe there's rules against it. What about private school vouching?
It's gonna be the cherry picking case or rules about athletics participation. So I just I just wants to click on there. But yeah, we're running out of time. I understand. Yeah.
So what about voucher Ng and just explain really what that is? Well, yeah.
So a voucher is any kind of scheme where you take public tax dollars, and you funnel them to private schools. And you can call them to extend tax credit programs, you can call them education, servings, service, education savings accounts, you can call them vouchers, they're all pretty much the same thing. It's taking money away from public schools and funneling them to private schools, who don't have to serve all students, they don't have to accept all kids. And, you know, it's basically hollowing out the public school systems so that eventually, the only kids who are left in public school are the kids who, who do poorly, who, who have a lot of challenges at home. And meanwhile, the more fortunate kids are able to go to the land of milk and honey, and continue to excel. And, you know, the only thing that's left behind is the public school, that becomes sort of, you know, a catch all for kids that no one else wants, and then we can just compare, you know, complained about public schools and how bad they are. And
vouching was about, you know, parents sending their kids to the local Catholic high school and being very frustrated that they don't have the government pay for that education, you know, just as an in the manner that we do with our taxes on public schools.
Well, and one, I think one of the myths of about these vouchers or education savings accounts, or whatever you want to call them is they would they would forward the base state aid per pupil, which is what 4040 $500? Well, if you look at what private school costs, that's nowhere near what private school costs and in most instances, so
it'd be subsidized. So all right, we're gonna skip along there, we're gonna go to the lightning round. Scott, there's legislation about forbidding trans students from participating in athletics in terms of the the legislative idea was that you could participate based on the gender at birth. Another bill this year?
Yeah, there's going to be another bill and KSB opposes this, because we believe that Keisha, the Kansas State High School activities Association has enough is, are the experts in this field, and they have the wherewithal to handle this?
How about a parent's Bill of Rights, this has to do with essentially right wing ideas about education to avoid topics or race, LGBTQ
type of thing? Yeah, we expect that'll be that'll come up again. There was a pretty prescriptive bill that did not make it last year. And so there was a, there was a more sort of, I guess, you would say, aspirational bill that was vetoed by the governor, that that Bill said, oh, you know, parents have rights. So I think we're gonna see another run at restricting things that are in libraries, you know, making teachers post what they're teaching. So yeah, I think we'll see that But again, it's it's something that people seem to think is a good campaign issue. So it's like
the book burning thing is hilarious because if somebody some book I labeled as obnoxious and not suitable for the library, that'd be the first book that I go check out. So again, to close out our lightning round. Leah, do you want to point to something that you you might think could come up during this legislative session that might be of interest to
us? Yeah. Given some of the tragic events of the summer, I think we'll most likely see some sort of Bill about either requiring school districts to arm teachers and staff or letting them arm teachers and staff. There are a number of issues around that. That's, you know, that's something that some communities or teachers might feel very comfortable with. Others would not. So I think at the very least you'll see a bill, you'll see some hearings. You'll see some activity around that. Scott,
I think you may see some activity about expanding exemptions from vaccinations for kids going to school.
Yeah, nothing like a VAX debate in the State House. Well, we're gonna have to leave it there. I want to thank our guests today, Lee F lighter, and Scott Rothschild, both of the Kansas Association of School boards for giving us a snapshot perspective on what we can expect in the 2023 session. Thank you both. Thank you. Thanks.