On this computer, I just give a quick overview of what we're doing here. This is our team to create an empathy circle of empathy, and empathy definitions typologies there's a lot of confusion about what Empathy means. And we're just going to try to tackle creating a simple access typologies. And we're going to use the empathy circle practice to discuss it. So sort of a bit of a meta discussion and the floor is open. So we're going to start
I'm sure I could start um, I'm just kind of getting my my mind into the process. Right now. I'm reflecting on the new website that was put together and all the different ways that people have of looking at empathy. And so just start collecting my thoughts at the moment.
So we had just gone over the new website, and you're just kind of collecting your thoughts. And you also had a lot going on before you came here. So just thinking Sorry, just kind of settling into this. typology.
Yeah, exactly. And it's interesting, because something that just came to mind was a conversation that I was just having with someone pretty soon, before coming here. Which had something to do with the differentiation between, and I know that, that this isn't like kind of where you want to go, this isn't the direction you want to go, necessarily. But I always think of that dichotomy between emotional empathy and cognitive empathy. And and our conversation concluded with the idea that emotions, that there's like a deeper truth in emotions. And that made sense to me in a way that I hadn't really directly considered before. And I think it bears on this discussion a little bit.
So you know, you're you're addressing this cognitive and affective how he's been defined in the cognitive and affective and, and you've been thinking about that, and the, the, the feeling has a deeper, there's a deeper essence or something to to emotions, that you're seeing that there are feelings, there's something to that. So it sounds like you've been thinking about it and try to kind of work it through.
Yeah, I've been thinking about the, maybe the larger one, maybe the larger topic of intuition is something that's always on my mind. sort of fascinating to think about intuition as a capacity that people have in varying varying degrees. And that a lot of into intuition comes from the information that we might derive from our emotional state. And so like, I've always thought there's just a lot of information and emotion, there's so much information that we can use from our own emotional reactions. Yeah.
So you've thought a lot about the intuition, and that the feelings or emotions is a source of the intuition. And there's a lot that we get from that. So I think you're, you've thought about intuition, so that you've given a lot of thought to or thought about before.
Yeah, a lot. Because something that's always fascinated me about other people's intuitive capacities, and my own is, and, you know, people in history too, is that, like, they seem to be able to make leaps between, you know, they get, they can go from A to like, you know, A to Z in kind of one thought or one moment, and they don't have to go through all the letters of the alphabet to get there. And so there's a mystery to it was like, how does that happen? But you know, what's responsible for those, like those moments, those leaps? Like
you're kind of associated, what I'm hearing is associated with, like history that those people would make these big leaps. They don't they go from, you know, Step A, all the way to quickly to Z, and they're not doing sort of a step by step linear all the way there. And so that's really Yeah. seems relevant. And maybe that underlying is this feeling as for the feelings or into emotions?
I think so. It seems that way. It's got to be something to do with that. It's got to be something else besides logic, because sometimes that will happen. And a third party will say, Well, how did you get from that from A to Z? And then they'll have to go, Oh, how did I, you know, and their logic mind or their, you know, practical mind might not actually know yet how they got. And they actually have to like, do the work of explaining it then or translating it into a different language than the one that they use to get there. So,
intuition to kind of make these big leaps, and they don't even know how they got it. There's something about logic. So there's not a step one, step two, which would be sort of the logical, it's just this big, emotional, insightful leap that happens. And people don't even know how they made that. They have to go back and they could maybe work out the steps after the fact.
Yeah, yeah, that's 100%. You got it. And I feel I feel hurt. Okay.
Yeah, what I had made some notes here for today. And I said, discuss our personal typologies of empathy for mutual understanding. So it's still I kind of see that sort of as a to explore more understanding, you know, where you're coming from with your personal typology. And I've got my personal typology to sort of explore, you know, what those are? And maybe it's the foundation, and I had next what is Shannon's understanding of cognitive versus affective? And there, you brought it up?
And I didn't even see that. Yeah. Oh, okay. I'll reflect that back. So, so you, were you, you're saying that in planning for today, and right now, some of the notes that you wrote to yourself was, were to kind of, for you and I to discuss our, our personal each one of our own respective topologies of empathy? And secondly, to kind of you wanted to know about how I specifically and differentiating between cognitive effect and effective started off on that. Yeah, yes.
And, and so the cognitive and affective is a typology that's out there, and it's very, you know, predominant, it's very popular. And so a lot of people start with that sort of that model. And when I started with empathy, it wasn't I hadn't even seen that cognitive affective much is something that's kind of come up more recently. Again, we talked about, you know, Dan Goleman, and Ekman, Paul Ekman, I think it was that had a big influence, you know, sort of popularizing that. So and I don't like it is a framework, so and I was kind of thing I don't like it, I would like to you to defend here.
Fair enough. Um, so you're saying like, that. You You're curious, in part, because it is a common way that people start out thinking about empathy. And it's a common way that Dan Goleman, and others have liked to have parsed out the different parts of empathy. And so you're really wanting me to kind of defend my position by kind of bringing this by having this question. Yeah.
Yeah. And it's, you know, I'm starting with Carl Rogers, you know, as a first step, but just sensing into right that here, here I am speaking, you're sensing into what I'm saying? And I feel Yeah, you're getting you're really sensing what I get, you know, even maybe the emotional aspects and the nuances. So for me, that is the the empathy and I don't know if that's cognitive or emotional or you know, what, you know, to me, it's just sensing into the the experience
so that you can sense that there's there's a right now even that I'm kind of sensing into what you're saying that even the nuances I'm kind of picking up and it doesn't Well, you didn't say this exactly, but it doesn't feel exactly accurate to say that that's either all emotional or all cognitive.
Yeah, exactly. So my question would be is worse the cognitive and worse the emotional aspect and what's happening in the moment? Yeah, and even the even the Deaf even using those two if cognitive and affective, there seems to be a different way people are describing them and it generally it tends to be that the the car That was somehow taking different perspectives is how they tried to and I don't know what's cognitive about taking different perspectives, but it's like, it doesn't make sense to me the whole frame framing just does not, is not very effective, it seems to me.
Yeah. So you're saying just like right now that there's cognition and aspect going on, and that you were from what you can gather people, part of the way they're defining or splitting off cognitive from affective or the rest of empathy is by calling it perspective taking. But you're making a point of like, what about perspective taking is just just about thinking?
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And? And isn't the thinking the cognitive the so called cognitive? Isn't that a felt experience? Isn't? Is there anything you can do this cognitive that does not have a felt experience? Connected? wrapped up in it? Can you not be feeling? Yeah, I guess. There's, there's some, you know, I can see the framework, but it just seems to have a lot of kind of logistic or logical or, you know, something problems with it.
Yeah. So you're saying, you know, can you ever really be doing anything? And just in not feeling and that there? I mean, how can you really sparse that or parse that out? And so you're saying there seems to be a problem in? It seems like there would be a problem in those definitions that do parse them out? Yeah. In practice, it never feels like that.
And it and this is coming. I think, from the psychology departments. I think this you know, Paul Ekman, I think he's like, maybe not, but there's also the communications community that they have made sort of the arguments about, it's all one, he can't parse it out. So I have seen arguments about saying, you know, that doesn't really fit, but it's not very popular, not highly. Yeah, out there, that it's, you can't really separate it.
Yeah. It's not quite as popular. But it is there are some thinkers, especially in communications department, but in some psychology departments to that do share this view that you're saying that it can't be parsed out
in that way? Yeah. And so yeah, and the second part to that is, to make it popular, it's too technical of a description, cognitive, I mean, even cognitive and affective, right? Those are highly academic terms. That's not very accessible to the general public. If you ask me, it's like, it's going to inhibit understanding, because it's just too technical of a of terms.
Yeah. So there's like there's, it's, it's problematic from the standpoint that you don't really think it can be parsed out in the way that it has. And it's also problematic from the standpoint that it's really hard lingo to actually, for the general public to actually pick up. It's a little bit too technical in terms of the concept.
Yeah, yeah. And I would, I would offer the term of imaginative empathy for what I think cognitive is trying to do. Because imagine if, in fact, imagine is that leaf that you're talking about, right? It's like putting yourself into a different position, and incorporates kind of everything in it. It incorporates imagination has sort of a felt a feeling quality to it.
So yeah, so you're proposing that instead, one, at least one of the components be named imaginative empathy, because imaginative empathy, unlike either cognitive or affective involves that leap of understanding that is, you I think you're you're at least insinuating that's really important to capture when we're talking. Yeah, actually,
I got one last point I thought I'd say here is to have the definitions of bats and say imagining imagining, so people say use that word quite a bit imagining but then they jump over to cognitive and all this other stuff. So it's not like hey, imagining just pulling a rabbit out of a hat. It's like it's already being used in the literature. When people when when a lot of the academics are just describing the process.
Yeah. So Batson talks about imagining imagining, and so it's already so is that right?
To have his definition, start with imagining, oh, and two of them, you know, like five and six or something is imagining this imagining that so
so All that to say it's already I mean that that's evidence that more than more people than just Batson are kind of using imagination as part of their topology of empathy. And so it's in the literature, but it's about. So it's about carrying that forward, I guess that aspect of it, and maybe reframing it, I think. Yeah,
yeah, I feel deeply hurt. Thank you.
Yeah. Um, so yeah, in light of my ex perience. Before I came here, and my fascination with intuition more broadly, I can definitely get on board with, with wanting or with seeing, imagining imagination as being a part of
empathy.
And I'll start there.
Okay, so you were very interested in intuition, and maybe that's felt experience around intuition. And so it really resonates the imagination word sounds like there's maybe some connection, you see sense some connection there?
Absolutely. Yeah. And what was I gonna say with that? Oh, I think that I don't know how this is not going to be a popular view in academia, probably. But I think that all, you know, all of us have, to varying degrees, like a sort of, you know, a lot more intuition than we're even aware of, like, when you have a dream about someone and you see them the next day, or they email you. And it kind of suggests that, you know, maybe we were picking something up about you, we're both on each other's minds in some way. And, you know, I think we're a lot more aware of the patterns in our lives in our relationships than than our cars, then then we are completely conscious of, or have conscious access to.
So this whole intuition, there's like a deeper we have this deeper sense of intuition that we're not so aware of, or so conscious of, is just seeing associations, and you're dreaming about somebody and seeing them again, there's all these deeper intuitions that is maybe a term that's not so popular in academia,
as well. Yeah. I mean, I can understand why it's probably probably one of the most difficult things to prove or operationalize or anything like that. The thing that drew me to this dichotomy between this alternative diet dichotomy between affective empathy and cognitive empathy, was not thinking about the importance of imagination and intuition. At all, although I think that does play a role. So it excites me to think about integrating it in. So I'll just start there.
Okay, so the affective and cognitive for that framework, it first it's a whole different sort of description, understanding there, then dealing with intuition or imagination, you're trying to address some other phenomenon, like, I think with that.
Yeah. And the idea is that is that a lot of therapists enter the field. And this is going to some of this is going to be a repeat of what I what I've already we've already talked about, but they have this ability to do one or the other, either, they're so much in their head, and in their thoughts and in there, to the point where they often over intellectualize what's going on, or try to explain too much of what's going on. Or they're in the other extreme, and they're maybe overly identifying with every patient that they find themselves working with. And, yeah, go ahead. Well, I was just gonna say add, like either one of those is clearly problematic.
Okay. So you're addressing something seems like the you see within therapy is that the therapist will be very analytical or kind of very, over analyze what's going on, or that they'll identify sort of in the feelings identify with the felt experience, and that's what you're trying to maybe name with.
Yeah, and so it can be helpful to have to sort of embrace that dichotomy between affective and cognitive empathy, when you're trying to communicate or when you're trying to write like a paper or whatever, on the fact that it's really important to be able to move in between your kind of mind and body type or when you're trying to talk about the importance of balance and about like being able to go between these two opposing ways of being like it's not about I don't know, maybe it is. But my idea is that it's not about experiencing them both at the same time, but it's about being able to move fluidly between the two of them, the two different states, like, between identifying with what someone's saying, but then also working your way out of that. And be curious about how your experience might have been different from the patients and yeah, not projecting onto them.
So you're seeing is a helpful term, cognitive and affective that, that you can have, that you can have that those concepts and then be able to move between the two, some people are very much in one or others are very much in the other. And you're seeing the ability to move between the two is being important, but having some way of naming those those states.
Yeah, exactly. So it's like in naming. And yeah, I don't even know if it it doesn't neatly map on to, like mine was taken from Mark Davis's typology of empathy where he, I believe, talks about empathic concern, fantasy, perspective taking and personal distress, empathy, and empathic concern and personal distress empathy are over here as emotional forms. And then fact, as you probably know, and fantasy and perspective taking are over there as cognitive forms of empathy. And yeah, so that's how I kind of started thinking about this and in differentiating the two.
Okay, so you're kind of basing this on Mark Davis's typology where he sees the, the, he has cognitive and, and affective. And he's putting a cognitive into fantasy, and affective into his, your identification, and some other things are in there. So he sounds like his typology sort of is based on now. Yeah.
That's one way that they all can be grouped or categorized.
Um, something else I missed? That was the best something in the in the effective I think.
Yeah. It's personal distress, empathy Express.
Yeah, personal distress, concern, empathic concern, and identification were.
Yeah. And then in perspective, taking it's fantasy and perspective taking,
fantasy and perspective taking so that those are in those different categories?
Yeah. And out of those, he says that empathic concern is like the most, that's what leads to the most helping behavior. I actually thought it was Batson that did that study with that measure. And found that empathic concern was the I guess the the one that led to that was most likely to lead to helping behavior.
So it's the within the affective, it's the empathic concern, that feeling of empathic concern that leads to people helping and so both that Batson and Davis are talking about that,
yeah. And then I've paired that with this other relational psychoanalyst that talks about the empathic process, and this will be a total repeat, but that empathy is me resonating with what you're saying, allowing what you're saying, to to trigger my imagination to get me thinking about a time I went through the same thing, and then regaining my own balance in the way that I know how to do it. And then, and then opening back up and listening from a completely new place a completely hopefully fresh and renewed place where I can kind of start taking it again, what you're saying and go through that process again. And so I was, I was kind of mapping on to these different forms of empathy that Davis was Talking about,
suppose another person that talks about when you listen, you identify with something that you're hearing. And then you sort of bring that into your awareness. And then with that awareness, you're listening in a different way to the person with that. So that new sensitivity or awareness, he didn't say, sensitivity. But
yeah, and the only addition to that is that she said, you recover from that identification in the same way that you you've learned how to recover in the past. Like, recover, meaning like you regain your balance. So if I feel in your experience of grief, I might lose my balance kind of, I might get. I might become wrapped up in my own past experience of grief and loss. And so that in that way, I lose my balance. But then I work through, I work toward rebalancing myself in the way that I know how to do. And that might look different for everyone that might be me, reminding myself that, you know, of hope, or you know, are becoming curious about something else in my life, but it'll be a different process for everyone. But regardless, through that process, I can become then curious again, about what what it is you're you might be saying or what you're going through,
okay, so if someone if you're listening to someone, and they, they're sharing grief, and then that grief, you start experiencing that grief, and it kind of throws you they get kind of wrapped up in the grief. And then there's sort of a process of how do you personally deal with that grief. And you may be might be thinking of some hopeful situation, but you kind of come to some sort of a rebalancing. So a way of handling that so that you can be present and listen, again, to the person you're listening to.
Yeah, exactly. 100%. And there's one additional thing, and then I'll be done. But that experience of working back is not only helping me to come back with a clearer mind and read more ready to listen. But it also gives me information about how I might help you if you're still in grief to come back to rebounce. And your own kind of place of clarity. So yeah, so that's
yeah, so that coming back to your own balance, and having had your own experience of what was happening, of how you dealt with grief for how to navigate grief, it gives you sort of insights of how you can contribute to the other person in their grief. So you might come up with some suggestions or something or some something that can contribute to their well being.
Yeah, that's all Yeah, I feel very hurt. That's the essence of it.
Well, for me, a lot of the things that you were mentioning, I don't consider empathy. So you know, empathic distress, you know, some of those things I see as, as being a reaction. So if I'm being present with you in your grief, like here, in the empathy circle, I'm just staying present. My job is only to stay present with you and hear you. You know, I might feel your wave of grief. And it's like, oh, and just name I'm hearing some grief, and you know what else? It's like I'm wanting to move into, it's kind of like letting it go. So for me to identify with it seems to be one thing, it seems to be a distraction, right? It's sort of a distraction, I don't consider that is, is empathy I consider if I, if I start identifying get caught up in that is sort of a distraction, sort of something that's knocking me out of empathic. So that empathic presence.
So you're reflecting that some of the things that you're hearing didn't quite sound like empathy that when you're empathizing with someone or actively listening, and they say something about me like that, say they're going through grief, you sort of, kind of name it and move on and not a naming it, you sort of let it go. But if you were to instead let it kind of overwhelm you're connected too much with your own past experiences, then you wouldn't be I think what you're saying is, yeah, that wouldn't be empathy anymore.
Yeah. Because I'd be kind of I'm not present with the other person. If it was you, I wouldn't be present with you anymore. I'm thinking oh, I had that grief on my dog died. Boy, that was that was really terrible. I was falling for hours. It was just so terrible. And so I could get kind of it's like, Oh, where did Shannon go? It's like I forgot about this. Right? I I'm not no longer staying with you and your grief. I mean, that's the real story. But yeah,
yeah. Um, so you're saying like, if, if you did get caught up, and it caused you to think about, like, what sounds like a terrible time that you know, your dog died, and then it you know, you can imagine or maybe you know, you were just imagining that you would in fact be sad, but then you wouldn't be actually present with me or with whoever was telling talking to you. So, empathy, what I'm hearing that you didn't say directly, but I think I'm hearing is that you're saying empathy requires more presence? Yeah. Yeah.
And then those other things. So that's the identifying as well as the the concern. So it's like, oh, I'm really worried about you. It's like, you're in grief, I feel really bad that you're in grief. And, you know, you're going to kill yourself some. I'm so worried. It's like, I started to bring in all these anxieties and fears, versus just, you know, you're feeling this grief, like, I'm hearing, I'm here with you, where are you going to go next? You know, sort of?
Yeah, so if you were to not only to overly identify, I think what you're saying is, if you were to not only overly identify with me, but to let my state trigger anxiety in you, like, oh, Shannon is not going to be okay, you know, she may be suicidal or something, and then you would really not be kind of in empathy anymore. And so now we're really actually quite off track, I think, is what you're getting.
Yeah, it's another version of being off track. And then there was another one empathic concern, or, yeah, the topic of empathic concern, I would say, kind of a concern kind of overlaps with, you know, the culture of empathy, care that we want the well being of everyone. So it kind of overlaps with that. But I think can also the concern can also be a distraction to from just presence.
So you're using, you're drawing from another thing that you heard, that didn't feel quite like empathy also, and that's this empathic concern, it's not, it's not doesn't involve presence of mind, it's more about care. And that that to isn't empathy. Yeah,
yeah. And so like, there's all this stuff happening in my consciousness when I'm listening. And it's kind of like, I just put it, you know, it's like, okay, focus on listening, focus on being present, you know, let this let that go, there's maybe judgments or everything else kind of coming up and just kind of let them go. And just stay present. So a lot of those things are being called empathy, are, are just actually what is actually our inhibitors to, to empathy.
So you're, you're saying, there's so much going on in your consciousness when you're listening. But your idea is not to be using that, like taking this and that and this and, but rather to be quieting that are clearing a space and that is more what you see as empathy.
Yeah, staying present, and that the presence itself is sort of the healing agent. You know, it's like, I don't need to help you, I just need to be present, you know, have a empathic deep presence. And that presence is sort of what you'll sort of take care of, and heal yourself more if there's, you know, healing to be done.
Yeah, and sort of you see as your task, as I can emphasize there is to be as present as possible. And that through that presence, it's possible for the person that's receiving that empathy to heat to heal, it will help them but it doesn't need to be accompanied by care and all these other things that the presence itself is healing.
Yeah. Yeah. I feel I feel fully heard.
Yeah. Um, my first reaction, I guess, to that, I, that idea is that, um, I do agree with that. And I have had experiences in my life where people that were extremely present with me have been the most influential to me and have really seen me in a way where it's actually caused me to pause and say, Oh, now I can actually look at myself and wow, now now I can actually see what I need to address. It's like somebody takes kind of like a spotlight and goes, it's right there. That's the problem. You know, that's the wound right there. So And so then you can go Oh, okay. Thank you, you know, and, and so that those have been that describes kind of some life changing kind of experiences I've had. So there's something that really resonates with me about what you're saying,
or something that resonates with what I was saying the description because you've had those experiences, and they've been very meaningful and life changing.
Yes, yes. And so. And so I'm trying to reconcile all these different things that I believe that empathy must be or is. And part of me, part of me is thinking right now that like that presence of mind is almost like an end. It's almost like a result of actually, because I think it is work. And I mean, and I feel it, you know, after a good empathy circle, I feel a good sense of satisfaction. But also, I feel like I've done some work, I feel like a satisfied workday has been accomplished. And so I know that I'm making small little micro adjustments, here and there constantly to try to maintain or achieve that presence of mind.
So that presence of mind, you're working it at that presence of mind, and it feels like you've really done some work. When you feel Yeah, it feels like effort, effort and work, I think you're saying to sort of hold, hold and maintain and make those adjustments to stay? To stay present?
Yeah, it's like when you're bouncing on one foot, and you notice your body's like always going like, just in slight ways like this, and that and I, and that's where I can see the appeal of breaking it down. Like, what are those adjustments? Why are those adjustments necessary? What's titrating? What, you know, is it like there's a scale and, you know, like these different components are being are like, balancing out one another. So that's sort of, I guess, where my mind goes with it. It's not necessarily an answer, but it's, it's how I've come to see it, I guess, or, actually, I guess I'm seeing it in slightly a different way.
So the listening and being present, like you're doing in the empathy circle is taking work. And it's sort of like standing on one foot where you have to constantly be shifting and, and sort of balancing yourself and, and there's a lot of things that you're balancing and sort of having a sense of what they are and how they work and seeing the nuances of it is kind of where your mind is, is going now what are those things that I'm balancing and getting into the nuances of it?
Right, like, what are the boundaries? Yeah, what exactly am I balancing out? I mean, it could, like you're saying, I mean, is it all about attention? I don't know it. I mean, I guess that remains a question. For me, sometimes it feels like it can sometimes it can feel like it's mostly about my attention, and keeping my attention on the task. But sometimes things can feel more, the waters can get more tumultuous, and it can feel more like I really am needing to balance out all these different human capacities like cognition and fantasy and emotion, it's like, not always like that. But sometimes when it's really like an emergency or crisis type space that someone enters into a really does feel like you have to pull upon your best, you know, in that way.
So when you're doing that balancing, that there's all these different factors that are happening, and you have to kind of you have to sort of address those and and there are things where it kind of, especially in when it's very tumultuous and you gotta sort of balance within that tumult is like, you got to deal with all these different energies or factors or things are throwing you off. And
yeah, so I'll just end with one example is like, if someone comes to me and says something that I'm like, I, I don't know how to understand where this person is coming from. I don't understand why they just said this to me. I don't even know how to begin to, you know, put myself in their shoes. If that were the goal, you know, um, then it's like, what am I missing here? You know what? Why, you know what? Why is it so difficult? You know, they're another human being so you know what's getting in the way? And can what's missing? Like? Am I? Am I missing the emotional component? Am I missing my you'll have no imagination right now what exactly is blocked? And why? Why can't I do that? So
are you saying it for yourself for like a student comes to you who's been listening and they're like struggling, they kind of in a session, and they're kind of coming to you and asking for help, that you've got to be able to listen to them and kind of help address whatever issue that they're dealing with. I wasn't quite clear if it's you or them or Yeah, or,
or Yeah, it hasn't been specifically student. But yeah, anybody, anybody outside myself that just comes to me and says, or makes a decision or suggest something, and I have no idea where they're coming from, and can't really kind of understand how they got there. So it becomes very difficult to kind of empathize or find a common ground with them.
Okay, so when you're listening to someone, and they they're bringing up some kind of a problem, and you're trying to find some sort of connection with them and sort of struggling with, how do I find a connection with what they're doing? How do you sort of navigate creating that connection?
Yeah. And well, yeah, and I started out trying to make the point that maybe parsing it out can help you find an entryway, but I don't know that that's true anymore. I was just trying it on for size. So yeah,
so parsing it out kind of seeing what happens and what those different energies are, for better word when they can you kind of identify them and parse them out. And and you had thought that that's good to do that you're not so sure now.
Yeah, because one last thing, like, something that occurred to me is that if I don't know where someone's coming from, I have to use either cognition or imagination or perspective taking to try to figure it out. And then there'll be a moment where things will turn and I'll go, oh, and then I can emotionally resonate with what they're saying. But it usually takes me having some sort of understanding that feels relatively divorced from my kind of bodily reaction to in order to actually have the oh, now I get it, I can resonate with where you're coming from, you know, oh, this is how you must have felt in order to say that thing that didn't make sense to me at the time, but you must have felt this way, you know, type of thing.
Okay. So the cognition is where you're trying, you're hearing someone, and they're saying things, and it's like you're trying to problem solve, and you try to understand what it is that they're saying, and you're not sure what they're saying. And then suddenly, you have some sense of understanding again, so that opens up your felt you're feeling?
Yeah, you got it. I feel very heard sound again, cool.
I would, wouldn't that cognition be a felt experience as well. So it's like the cognition might be like, some stress, some focus, you know, some tension, that that is a felt experience, why kind of existentially that is the felt experience, just as if the the opening the understanding, kind of get the sense of this opening and understanding, feeling, but when you're trying to do the understanding that you have felt the experience?
So you're proposing, isn't that correct? That part that I'm calling cognition? Isn't that a feeling in and of itself that you're imagining? It must be something like stress or tension, a striving? Maybe I added that but focus?
Yeah, like a filtration,
concentration? And then you understand that, yes, it's followed by this release, or this? Yep. Perhaps what I'm calling affective empathy, but you would say it's more of a release from that tension.
Yeah, something has come together. You've gotten some kind of an insight in when you have that insight. It's like, Oh, that feels good. There's a release, right? There's that tension gets released, and he kind of fills your body with kind of that insight. Yeah.
So it's a it's a release. It's like an opening. It's sort of It's a you're saying it's actually a good feeling like fills your body with insight. Yeah.
So that was it then that kind of a story an example. goal is, I tell the story a lot to model, you know, empathy in the family. So my sister and sister, and my mother had a fight, you know, during Christmas about where the gifts were kept. And they were going at each other, like, in the middle of the room, everything looked like it was going to blow up. And I thought, Okay, I have to do something. Right. And I had that awareness, that sense of credit, that wanting to create a sense of presence, where I first listened to my sister in law, just with empathic listening, I hear you're really upset, because this and this, right, I'm totally present. And then she said, Yes. And then I shifted to, you know, my mother did the same thing. But the feeling that there was two feelings in my body, one was sort of this presence, you know, kind of warmth, trying to be present with him. And the other was, like, totally terrified. I mean, I was I, it was like, it was like, in the marrow of my bones, that it was like just a cold, you know, deep anxiety and fear and terror. I laugh, just the real, release it a little bit. So, at the same time, I had both of those, you know, but I was trying to stay focused, you know, with them and listening. Hmm.
So you're recalling this, this poignant moment where it was the holidays, and there was a fight that was kind of erupting with your sister in law your mom around where the presence were being kept. And you felt called upon to help in that moment? And you're kind of specifically getting into that first reaction that there was two things going on, and one was this, like, intense focus. But on another level, it was actually there was a lot of fear. And like a tightening, I guess. And like a coldness, I think, yeah,
it was like icicles, it was like an icicle in the core of my being, like, in the marrow, like, you know, just if I felt it in my body, and it was like, it was like an icicles, like, you know, the potential of going into oblivion, almost, you know, total. And so it was, but I just felt that it's because I've done the empathy circle, so much, I was able to hold that, you know, stay present with it. So I was feeling it. At the same time, another sort of part of me was very present with them doing empathic listening. So I was able to sort of hold both, and then the presence had sort of a higher, you know, filling more of my consciousness and more. Yeah,
I see. So you're further describing that it was like a, like an icicle forming in your core. And so you're sort of insinuating that, that could very well be very distracting, but because of your experience with empathy circles, you were able to actually hold and harness that presence of mind, in spite, in spite of what was happening for you.
And I have that fear that anxiety is kind of low level through life. It's kind like this low level, and always a little kind of anxious, always a little, you know, things could blow up, you know, kind of walk through life. But it's also this other like, Oh, if I just listen, no matter what the situation, you know, that I can, so I kind of, and I would say maybe that's just a stress or empathic distress, whatever calling or just the stress. But it's so these these things are sort of happening at the same time, it seems to be which is sort of dominant in the moment.
So you're sort of saying that there's some kind of low level of anxiety or maybe distress that's happening throughout life, and it ebbs and flows. But that kind of regardless, if you something that kind of sounds like it puts your mind at ease, is that regardless of the situation, you just go into active listening, it's a lot of times the situation can be diffused. Yeah,
yeah. And it's an it was something that came to me was, it's the sense of trust, and hope, in that empathic presence that I've always seen if you can get people to talk empathically long enough with each other. The problems kind of work out it but it just, you know, so there's sort of a hope and trust in that presence.
Interesting. So there, so it occurred to you that in order to achieve that presence and move through That icicle core, there has to be this hope or this faith in as long as you listen for long enough, it's possible to break through.
Yeah. And I'm saying it that's for me it's not like the general, you know, for me that's I'm just sort of noticing I think within myself that sort of like keeps me grounded, like all the practice, as well as the hope and trust that kind of helped with that presence.
So you're sort of qualifying what you just said is that this is more, you know, this is what you know, to be true for yourself, but not necessarily forever one, but that over time, that's, I might be missing a little
bit. Yeah, that's it. Exactly. Yeah. So yeah. So yeah, I fully agree with that. Yeah.
Well, what you were just saying, made me realize maybe the role of bravery with this too. Because I think like, I know, it's I know, you are not speaking in generalities, except that it sounds like a somewhat common experience that when people get in fear, there's something stubborn about fear. It's like, no, no, this is right, I should be scared. This is terrible.
And it's
very counterintuitive to kind of force your own hand to No, no, I'm going to put my hand to the fire, I'm going to just hear this person out, even though I'm, you know, very scared of what's going on or very angry, you know, no, no, no, I'm just gonna do it. And so I think that does require a lot of faith, hope, I think bravery, but that's what I hear.
So it takes a lot of faith, hope and bravery to sort of stay present in a situation like that, to get triggered or upset or go with a fear.
Yes, and I, it occurs to me that that's, that I, it occurs to me that I can relate to that, that there's a there's been situations in my own life where, you know, I feel sort of like, um, you know, a be at a moment where I don't really like what's going on, or I don't really see. I don't really understand why people are behaving in certain ways and be kind of like, but yeah, I think there's something like hope, bravery. Um, that keeps me in there trying to see their point of view.
Because,
you know, what I've learned through my training is like, everyone has a reason for how they, it might not be a reason that you agree with it, but they everyone has very good reason to behave as they do. And so just because I can't see that reason, at any given time, just because their behavior is hurting me, you know, at any given time, doesn't mean they don't have a reason. So if I can just hang in there to see what their reason might be, then it will open up that space. Perhaps.
Okay, so you're kind of like, what's the motivation for being empathically present. And one of the motivations or understandings for you is that whatever everyone's doing, there's reasons behind it. And if you can stay present long enough, you trust that you'll be able to find the reason that they're doing what they're doing then that opens some sort of a space maybe a sense of connection or understanding. You didn't quite say what it was but
Right, right.
So
yeah, so I saw I'm seeing another kind of, it's hard to like not put things back into the bins that you started with. So I'm almost seeing another justification for the emotion cognitive dichotomy which is like or I'm talking myself into it, which is like which is that that exactly like what you were calling hope and faith, I now maybe you didn't use the word space but hope. I guess is what is what I call a bravery or trying to stick but there's also a cognitive strive to take their perspective that has to happen before I can emotionally resonate with where they might be, which I have no idea where they are, if I'm in a place of not understanding at first, yeah.
So from what we've been saying, it's kind of you're going back to the cognitive emotional affective, and it's kind of giving you something, you know, for that is that, that you see that you do need that sort of understanding that cognitive understanding for sort of a space to an emotional space are effective space to open up.
And now I remember what you said, I think it is I do also associate it with tension, and expansion or tension and an opening act. And I also Yeah, so yeah, I think that it's, I see empathy as being able to move smoothly between all these different dichotomies or all these different seemingly opposing opposites, like cognition, empathy, self other, like tension relaxation. Um, but I also see your point that I, I think the emotion and cognition, I do see your point that that doesn't feel in practice. That feels very, like a philosophy that sees the mind and the body as completely distinct, whereas then, you know, that's not really where the most contemporary advancements are at with regard to science and theory, you know, people generally tend to see that the mind and body are intricately connected. So,
so sounds like the I'm hearing is the, the mind and body so that differentiation, cognitive versus is, is a concept that is currently, there's a lot of I guess, it's not so differentiated that they're kind of interrelated. But it sounds like it does, it is sort of a helpful, sort of a framework for you to think those more.
Yeah. Yeah. So hard. Okay.
Yeah, let's.
So, yeah, we're just trying to think of where to go with. I'm glad you're the fact that I'm not quite done with yet. It is true that that differentiation, that the mind and body are somehow different, that, you know, that there is, as I understand it, in academia and so forth in science, it is today, it's not, you know, kind of you think, you know, it's not also it's, it's all kind of interrelated. So there is, you know, so
yeah, yeah. So you're sort of saying that you're sort of agreeing that yeah, they they are interrelated. That is what the literature saying.
Yeah, I'm all for distinctions, you know, to having distinctions and naming distinctions and having different categories. But, you know, something, it's got to sort of resonate something that sort of makes sense. So I'm kind of looking for distinctions, that sort of make sense.
Yeah, so you're sort of you get, like, having distinctions are ways of differentiating things. But for you, it has to make sense. And the one between cognition and effect doesn't, doesn't feel like it bears out. Yeah,
a category that makes sense to me is blocks the empathy, empathy and blocks the empathy, we a lot of the things that you were describing are just output in the category of empathy and empathy, right? Identification, blocked empathy, empathic distress, blocked to empathy, you know, detachment into fantasy or something, blocked them. So that those are like some kind of, yeah, distinctions I would make that there's a lot of blocks to empathy.
Right? So even to further simplify, you would put it into bigger bins, which would be like, empathy inbox to empathy inbox could be all a lot of things that we've been talking about, like retreating into fantasy or becoming too identified or, you know, et cetera, et cetera.
Yeah, And it really matters in the discussion because you have the Paul Bloom book that everybody quotes, guys from galleys. Nobody's talking about. I just I was in a meeting earlier today with the Oxford group. And somebody mentioned, I emailed, I mentioned, Bob bloom. And my thing is, he's been talking about empathy. He's talking about a block, they're busy. So I mean, it just makes a big difference to these definitions and these typologies in terms of knowing what the heck we're talking about, you know.
So it makes a big difference. Whether, yeah, to kind of make these distinctions is actually could be fruitful. You didn't exactly say that. But it could be fruitful. Because if someone's just talking about one side of the distinction or the dichotomy, then it can be easily discernible that that's not quite it.
Yeah. And it's, it's one thing is, you know, we have our typologies, too, but what are the typologies? Other? I mean, it's, I think it's helpful that we have an understanding of what our personal typologies are, so that when we look at the other typologies, that, you know, we can kind of say, Oh, what are they talking about is how does it relate to what you know, what are typology? Sar?
Yeah. So you're saying it's good to start from a good understanding of our own topology so that we know maybe how they relate or don't relate to what else is out there?
And, yeah, so the, the one, the typology, I mean, the what I have, you know, have mentioned before, is the the empathy of, you know, sensing into the experience of someone else. And I guess that's the other part is all these different typologies, typologies? How do they relate to what we're doing here in the empathy circle? Right? Can Can we relate to moment in what we're doing? relate it to something specific? So there's that that part too, is relating it to something concrete in our experience?
Hmm, like all these different topologies? Another question is, how do they relate to our experience in this empathy circle, like, their different moments that map on to different topologies? Yeah.
And so the one that I have, the resonates with me is, again, the imaginative empathy, because it's, there's the empathy of me staying present with you, our, your, what you're doing now you're staying present with me, you're just sensing into, and you're reflecting back kind of the whole, everything you're reflecting, you know, words, feelings, thoughts, you know, pictures, so sort of a whole reflection, I feel like I'm being reflected in that sort of wholeness of sort of what's coming up.
Yeah. So yeah, first part, you're saying I don't want to lose track. So the first part is what you're saying the presence of me kind of kind of recording or actively listening? And then reflecting that back to you.
Yeah. And I would send I have a sense of warmth, because I feel like you're really making an effort. So I don't know if I'm projecting. It's like, I feel a sense of warmth, you know, so from from that. So, yeah, that's one aspect.
So another aspect, besides presence of mind is warmth. And that seems to coincide with someone really making an effort. Like, there's warmth than that.
Yeah, yeah, that's probably like oxytocin. Right. It's like when they have something reflected your body. You know, synchronicity creates oxytocin. And oxytocin has a felt sort of experience to it. So
that there's something there might be something neurobiological, like oxytocin in the feeling of being mirrored.
And then the other is the imaginative empathy. You know, coming back to that, again, in the sense that we haven't really been taking role doing role, you know, really distinct role plays in what we've been saying here. But if we were to do distinct role plays, like roleplay, someone else or I would make that a clear distinction between a different type of empathy, which is the imagine of imagining myself in a different situation, a different situation as a different person, in myself in the future. So there's, it's that imaginative aspect.
Yeah. You're saying there's a third aspect which we maybe not haven't tapped into as much without having roleplay different people or characters is that there's this imaginative empathy
and then there's the the aspects of the developmental empathy, which you you mentioned that, it seems like the children when they're when they're babies, it's like they experience the world is just like one. You know, one feeling it's like, they like sometimes with kids, I feel anxious, and they feel the anxiety, and they start crying, right? Because they just feel that the room and the energy or something like that. So there's sort of that developmental where there's just you're feeling all these spaces. So one undifferentiated sort of space.
Yeah. So there's a then there's this fourth, which is like developmental empathy. And that's like, with kids, the lack of a filter, or they just pick everything up in the environment. Yeah,
yeah, sort of undifferentiated you know, the science of you know what, one baby cries, they all suddenly start crying, because it's just the, the feeling kind of just overwhelmed. And maybe like a yawn, right? It's like I just picked it up, you just sort of embody it. And so there's that that sort of aspect.
So you're saying that you see this in like a nursery, when one baby starts crying, they all start crying. And same thing with like a yawn like, well, for adults, we can relate by the contagion of a young. Yeah.
And then there's the entire set the SallyAnn test, I don't know if you've worked with that with, they do it with children at about a year and a half. That they, they put, they put it, they have the you know, the children child, and then a puppet. And then they put, you know, they hide something, or they hide something. And then they put a, they hide it, and then Sally and the puppet is there. And they say where do you think Sally and sees it? And they say, Well, I'd say it's under the bucket, it's under the thing. And then then SallyAnn goes out of the room, and then they hide it somewhere else. And then they asked it to puppet comes back because they were allowed to settle in. And they think it's they think that SallyAnn will think whatever they think they don't they haven't differentiated, they can't imagine that, oh, you're you're in a different room, you don't see where what's being done. They think that everybody thinks what you what you think. And so that's like about a year and a half, I think it's they call it the SallyAnn test for you know, when you start able to start even start having that perspective of somebody else's perspective.
Yeah. So you're using this cognitive test, that they did the SallyAnn test to talk about perspective taking. And the reason that's developmental is because it's only at about a year and a half that a child is able to take a Salesians perspective and know that when that puppet left the room, they're gone. They're not going to know that the thing was hidden somewhere that only the child was able to see it was hidden.
Except I don't call that cognitive. I call that imagine that. That's the imagine a VC has to be able to imagine being SallyAnn and what the world looks like from SallyAnn perspective. Yeah. And I think that that imaginative is also going to be that they will you have to be able to know what feelings not only what division is that Sally Ann has, but what is the feelings that Sally and may have to so I would say that's what I like the word imagine it versus cognitive, because it's going to be a perspective plus, you know, plus the felt experience.
Yeah. So you're saying that you're you're clarifying that that's not cognitive, that's an imaginative empathy. That it's because it's perspective taking, but it's plus the felt experience of what SallyAnn must know. And feel.
fully heard also noticing the time, he had an hour and a half, so just keep you on track?
Sure. Yeah. Um, yeah, I'll just go real quick
on listening.
Um, I don't know that I have too much more to add at this point, but just that, um, yeah, I'm just I'm playing with that. That idea of imaginative empathy.
Um,
because I agree that that does sound like a better description of what's going on with the child. Um, and imaginative does bridge that gap between cognitive and affective um, So I'm just playing around with that idea. Yes.
And
I think okay, so this is what it is, I think in clinical psychology, there's a lot of talk about cognition and effect. And I think that's why I have those as my bins. Because you talk about defense mechanisms being like, the cognitive and affective split, like if somebody is very defended, then they've split off Aflac from their whole way of being in the world. And you say they have this defense that's called a cognitive affective split. And you know, there's other, there's other ways, like people talk about thought disorders being when somebody is relatively like, more so in the ideation, kind of world of ideation and thinking, and relatively cut off from their emotions as well. And then there's a whole other grouping of disorders that are more about being flooded with emotion, like people talk about, you know, people with borderline personality disorder that struggle with impulsivity, like they just react super quickly, or people with hysteria that have trouble with like, similar states of emotional overwhelm. So I think like On second thought, as you're kind of challenging me to think more deeply about why this kind of were you know why this made so much sense to me that I haven't really questioned it is I think it's just so much built into the vernacular of clinical psychology. Yeah. Yeah. The
reason you have this, these buckets of cognitive and affective uses just within clinical psychology, it's just used a lot and something even better for to describing things that they it's so you're very sort of trained in that.
Yeah, and in order to have an integration, like, I think you have to have an integration, you have to be able to have that integrated in your mind and body to be able to to be someone that can be flexible and move between those two. I think that means you also have that capacity to imagine without getting lost in imagination and going into fantasy. Does that make sense?
Yeah. So that you had mentioned that before, too, that the empathy is sort of this space that sort of brings the two together, you move between the two. And there's a set of empathic space is a space that moves between the cognitive and affective and that the imaginative, I didn't quite catch that what what role you thought imaginative wellness, their
thing that I'm thinking now is I don't think that if you can't do that, or if someone doesn't have the capacity to do that, I don't think they can really imagine that well, with the other. I think imagination requires that
integration. It's a found that integration is sort of a foundation for good imagination, too.
I think so. I think in the way that you're describing. Yeah, the imagination makes sense. So that's all I feel heard.
Okay, cool. Well, we can just open it up any you know, without reflection. I can try it. Let me just actually check the see what happened here review full transcript. Yes. It's like okay, cool. So that's right. Let me stop that and see if I can save this transcript. Stop Recording subtitles. Choose for live transcript. And that's very helpful. Disable I hope. Okay. Let's see. Save transcripts saved. show in folder. I think it saves it in the Zoom folder, I hope. Oh, yeah. It'll be saved in the Zoom folder. Oh, it may still hit the stop record to our
