If we could do one thing in this podcast, it would be to leave people with either a vision for the family, or a desire to gain God's vision for the family. Because I really think, at the end of the day, if you understand God's vision for the family and the goodness that's inherent in that, you will want it and then the hard work is worth it.
Welcome to Ideas have consequences the podcast of the disciple nations Alliance, a show where we examine how our mission as Christians is to not only spread the gospel around the world to all the nations, but to also transform the nations to increasingly reflect the truth, goodness and beauty of God's kingdom. Tragically, the church has largely neglected the second part of our mission. And today, Christians have little influence on their surrounding cultures. Join us on this podcast as they rediscover what it means for each of us to disciple the nations and to create Christ honoring cultures that reflect the character of the living God.
All right, well, welcome again to another episode of ideas have consequences. This is the podcast of the disciple nations Alliance. My name is Scott Allen, I'm the president of the DNA. And I'm joined today by Dwight Vogt, Shawn Carson, and Luke Allen. Hi, guys.
Hey, yep, just with the kind of the core team today, and it's great to be with you for another episode, a really important one. We are the disciple nations Alliance. And so we're very interested in what that means. What does it mean to really see strong, flourishing, healthy, blessed nations as God intended. And we see that as part and parcel of the mission of the church to bless and to disciple nations, as it says in the Great Commission, Matthew 2018. And today, we're going to talk about something that's completely foundational and basic to discipling nations. And that is the whole subject of family, marriage and family. It's our contention that God created and designed both of these as the most basic social institutions that exist, he did so and we're going to talk about this today, he did this. Right at the very beginning, we're going to look at some passages from Genesis chapter one and two, where God designs these social institutions. And they're, they're the most because they're the most basic social institutions that exist. They're kind of like the cells of a nation, if you will, a nation is a much bigger, broader social institution. And, and so it's very simple. If the cell is healthy, strong and flourishing, so will the nation be and when the cell begins to die, the nation's going to die. And so to disciple nations, we've got to really pay attention to this most basic social unit. And, guys, before we jump into it, I just want to kind of remind everybody, that this is something that applies to all of you who are listening today, okay, all of us are part of families. All of us have mothers and fathers, most of us have sisters and brothers. Some of us, all of us have grandparents, great grandparents, uncles, aunts, I mean, these, these family, relationships affect all of us, we're all part of them. And I know some people are single, that are listening. And I think sometimes single folks will go, this doesn't apply to me, I'm not married. I don't want you to think that way. Your this does apply to you, it applies to everybody. And we're going to talk about singles and marriage and things like that as we get into this. But I just want us all we all have to be good students of what it means to be a part of, of families, this most basic institution that God created. I think what I'd like to do those before we get into kind of what the Bible teaches what the basics of this are. Because to understand to have a strong, healthy family, you've got to understand what it is. What are the basics, it's, you know, before we were on air, Dwight, you were talking about basketball. And before you can play the game of basketball, you got to know what dribbling is you got to know what passing is you have to know these basic things. You have to begin to do them kind of well and then you can play the game. Families like that you have to know what these basic things are. What is a husband? What is a wife? What is marriage? What what are the basic roles of these things, then you can begin to play the game. So we're going to we're going to get into into that. But, but we're going to start with bad news guys. The bad news is that we're living at a time in history when the family and marriage have really broken down to two, I would say an alarming degree. And this isn't something that's happened in my lifetime, this is something that goes back, at least to the 1960s, probably all the way back into the 1800s. When you trace it back to thought leaders, people like Freud, Darwin, you know, some of these people, their ideas of rippled down and affected us all. But you really started to see it. affect society societies, starting in the, in the mid 1900s, let's say, and now we're living at a time. And this is not just true of the West, let's say the United States, I think this is something that's true around the world. We're living at a time when kind of the true, God ordained Biblical understanding of family is, has nearly been lost. In other words, you have people that are being raised that have never seen it, they don't know what it looks like they've never experienced it. So it's kind of lost knowledge, and has to be recovered. So I wanted to kind of start with where we're at. And this is, this is part of the reason why our nations are very broken all over the world today is that we've really experienced a significant breakdown in marriage and family. So I've rambled on long enough guys, we'd like to kind of open the floor to your thoughts on that particular topic, or anything that I've said as far as setting up our talk today. But we'd like to look at some of this the aspects of the breakdown of marriage and family and the world that we're living in today.
Yeah, Scott, I'd like to comment on just your starting point, saying We it's the it's the cell of the nation, and it's the beginning of God's plan for social structures in humanity. And, you know, I immediately I think, well, the pushback is, but it's broken. And it's not what you know, okay, it's so and there's a temptation, and I think it's a real temptation. And it's a legitimate temptation to say, well, let's just, let's just deal with life as it is. And, and yet, it's important to step back and anything you're doing and say what's true, nor Yes, you know, what, what is the absolute ideal here, whether you're in business or whether you're in sports? Yeah, you may not hit it, but you don't want to not see the goal clearly, that you're aiming for. Yeah, absolutely. Do I, and then you work towards that. And there's this the sense well, if I don't set it to clearly I won't fail, right? If you set a really low bar, you know, you won't fail. You know, if you plan to get divorced five times, and you only get divorced four times your goal, you can some progress. But yeah, I think there's a, I think that's really important that we sit down and go what, what is God's intentions? And then when we think of redemption, it's like, well, that's what he's taking us towards when we get there. No, but that's where he's aiming and what a beautiful place that is. and not be afraid of, of setting that true north?
Absolutely do i know i think if something's broken, and you want to fix it, you need to know what it's like, when it's not broken. What is what is the what is the what is the, the non broken thing look like? So essentially, that's what we need to start with. Yeah, what is what are these things when they're not broken? And, and we certainly see a picture of that for sure, in the first couple of books of Genesis, and not only there, I would say that, because of the finished work of Christ on the cross, and just the whole process of redemption. I mean, I know, families and marriages that, by God's grace and His strength really do approach that ideal. And I've learned from them, right. So it's not, it's not like we have to only find this in history way back at the beginning, we can see at least kind of through a glass darkly, at some level, what this picture looks like, even today in the redeemed relationships that there are around us.
Yeah, Scott, one thing that stands out to me a little bit, especially in the 21st century is, you know, we're so individualistic as well. So we don't bring, we don't necessarily have a vision for community and community is has led me down or I really don't want to be a part of community because it says about me and what I want to do. Yes. And so maybe family is just here to help me get what I want and, and kind of move on versus this kind of relational, you know, assets that we have in community with families. So that are bigger than me and contain all of us. And I think that we were kind of missing that aspect as well, when it comes to family.
It's a really great point, Shawn. And I just want to, I want to just touch on that, because I think this is something that's, again, it's really important. You bring up community and individual and what I've noticed is, you know, traveled around the world, you guys obviously spent time in foreign countries around the world is that there's a kind of a spectrum, culturally, on the emphasis that cultures will give to people as individuals versus people as parts of communities, if you will, right, like families or other, you know, communities. And you're right, certainly in the United States, we are on the, you know, we are on the side that really emphasizes our extreme, far extreme nuts, right, you know, your extreme? Yeah, we kind of Yeah, we are probably at the extreme. If you go to the other extreme, you would often see maybe Asian countries that, you know, in India, not exclusively Asia. But Africa is this way to a bit but, but they're going to put a lot more emphasis on, on community, on on group and less on individual. What does the Bible say about all this? Well, I think the Bible has this really beautiful balance, where it says both of these are important right of the individual is really important. And you see kind of the Bible emphasizing the individual in the just in creation itself, and the fact that God created people as individuals with individual gifts and skills and talents and uniquenesses, right. And God calls people as individuals, you see this, for example, in the call of Abraham, right? God comes to a person and calls a person and says, I'm going to make a covenant plan a redemptive plan, through you, your life is going to matter. So every individual life matters, right? At the same time, the Bible puts a huge emphasis on communities. And that's what we're talking about. Today, we're talking about a community the most basic one, which is marriage and family, right, the procreation that comes from marriage and the family and the extended family. The Bible also places a huge emphasis on that, since that's very important night. And I think, you know, that biblical balance is, is where you find health and strength. And when you kind of exclude one or the other, you know, if you if you emphasize community, to the exclusion of the importance of the individual things become unhealthy. And the same way, the opposite. So if you emphasize the individual, at the exclusion of the community, or the family, things become broken and unhealthy. So, a little on that. Any comments on that, guys? I just think that's a really important biblical kind of building block that we need to kind of talk about here a little bit.
Yeah, they're, again, when you think about God designing the family, he designed community, and he designed us to be in community. And yet, because of the fall, sometimes that's really difficult. And so we go, Well, I'm just going to be my own individual life. And I'm going to go via, you know, worst case scenario, I go be a hermit, you know, nobody's gonna get my way out there. And I'll just, you know, nobody will bother me. Yes. But But God's perfection, his design for flourishing is is not that. And we miss out if we don't engage in relationship. And here, he created this family, which is the crucible for doing that. Yes. First and foremost. And it's sometimes it's challenging. I mean, Deborah and I were talking this morning about wish this relationship was a little better. And this one was, but But it's, it's important. It's just so valuable.
Yeah. Right. You know, at the very beginning, right, God created Adam, the individual, but then he quickly says, right, it's not good. Yeah, you're alone. And that's not good. Right. So then then comes community, here comes another person, and they're to be in a relationship in a kind of a very unique and special relationship. So that's, and then they
start arguing That's right. Yeah, and then one of them kills the other
things get dysfunctional quickly. You're right, you're right. So But anyways, Shawn, back to your point, though, I think you're you're right, that we have to kind of understand, you know, just this kind of balance, if you will, the importance of individuals and also of, of, of communities of groups. And this most basic one is so important. You know, in fact, if you asked me Scott, who are you right, it's hard for me to explain who I am apart from my family, right? Because my family is so shaped me right. But they you know, they've shaped me but they don't. At the same time, they don't determine who I am right. I've got an identity apart from them. So I just think It's important to have have these things kind of correct in our minds. Let's talk a little bit about the breakdown of family guys. We live at a time, as I said earlier, when these things have really broken down. And again, I think the current kind of crisis that we're in goes back at least to the mid 1900s. Words like divorce. So prior to 19, the 1970s most married couples around the world didn't divorce that was quite uncommon. I mean, it's hard for us to even imagine that today, because it's so common, I think it's the statistics or something like, you know, 50% of marriages in most countries in the United States, and many countries are now ending in divorce. The whole idea of sex, and the Bible's we're gonna see here, the Bible reserves the sexual relationship for marriage. I mean, that's been completely obliterated, right, that's completely lost. So we have, you know, the sexual revolution really began to undermine that, and today we've got, you know, it's just, it's like a, if sex is like a river or the river, you know, that runs in a particular channel. And when it does, it's, it's, it's, it's beautiful, and it's productive. But if it runs out of that channel, in floods, it's really destructive. Well, we're in a flood race, like everywhere, right, this whole sexual revolution, I mean, LGBTQ, that list now doesn't end does it? It just keeps going. Right. And it you know, it's just, it's just a reminder to me of just how out of, you know, any kind of guidelines or any kind of proportion, you know, this whole area has, has, has become, you know, any thoughts from you guys on those twos? We, you know, we can get into others as well. But those are huge ones right there. You know, just the fact that many people have never seen again, a strong healthy family, you know?
Yeah, I love your analogy that you started with, like Dwight pointed out the cell, healthy cells, you know, have a healthy body. So Healthy Families produce a healthy nation. I think it was Pope John Paul the Second, who said, as goes a family, so goes the nation. And that's just that's what we're talking about today. And as far as the breakdown goes, though, before this recording, I, you know, did a quick search on some statistics on, you know, what this what this breakdown, looks like, statistically, today, and you guys can do this as well, I only found a few, but there's just so many numbers, and wow, it's happened fast. You know, you can drag these back to Freud and those guys, but as far as the consequences of those ideas go, they've really kicked into high gear since the 1960s and 70s. Today, for the first time in the US is history. The nucular family, people growing up in a nuclear family is is the minority in the 1960s 77.5% of children grew up in a nuclear family today. It's 46%. Actually, that's in 2014. Today, as Nancy Pearcey told us a few weeks ago when she was on the show, as many as 42% of children grow up, not even knowing their natural fathers.
What's the percent there? Luke? 42 42%? Yeah, yeah. Without knowing either a father or mother usually a father, right.
This is their father. Yeah. And yeah, it's, the numbers are just skyrocketing right now. And I think a lot of it does go back to like you were saying, Sean, is we have this hyper individualistic focus right now. Which leads to a lot of these consequences of, we look at marriage through a very selfish lens. And because of that people get married much later in life. A lot of people that get married don't have kids. And just all of this affects our view of marriage. Anyways, yeah, a lot more stats. I could go on and on. But this is happening right now. And it's yeah, it's accelerating right now.
Yeah. And countries all over the world. I've even think,
yeah.
Even even the what's happening within marriage. Yeah. I mean, we there are people who are still together. But, you know, my wife's a counselor. So sometimes, you know, she doesn't talk about her cases, obviously. But I do know that people struggle with promiscuity within marriage with pornography within a marriage. And just it's, it's, it destroys a marriage from within, even though people are still living together. There's just a lot of brokenness,
and because there's so much brokenness, and like you were saying, Luke, a lot of people have grown up not even, you know, they don't know what a traditional family look slike with a mother and a father at home. So they are actually wondering what the what's the point, right? And so you have people just opting out essentially in record numbers and just saying, I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna go habit. I'm just going to live with my girlfriend, my boyfriend in a sexual union without marriage. Right? What it's so because what's the point of marriage, right? So that's happening now all over the world in record numbers. And that's making the problem a lot worse because now in these cohabiting relationships, you have children being born in very unstable unions, often that lead to breakups, and just further exacerbates the problem. So we've got cohabitation. Another thing that you see is it this is kind of ironic, that with the sexual revolution, there's been a rapid decrease in procreation. So more sex, but less children, right. And now it's reached kind of epidemic proportions in the most kind of westernized countries where people are just not having children. And you're, you're you're literally committing as a culture, what some people call demographic suicide. I mean, if there's not a kind of a basic rate of reproduction, I think it's like 2.1 per, per female, the society dies, it literally goes extinct. And it does so quite quickly. And that's happening now. In many nations around the world, Japan, Italy, Spain, the United States, Russia, Japan, Korea. It's It's ironic to because there's, you know, especially in circles, where people are very concerned about the environment, there's still a lot of talk and concern about overpopulation. But the problem is actually the opposite. We're having a demographic crisis of not having children. And why is that? Well, part of the reason is, you had again, thought leaders like Margaret Sanger, who kind of idolized sex and said, you know, you know, the purpose of life, you can't live a fulfilled life without sex. So you want to have sex and as much as possible. But the problem with that is, of course, it leads to reproduction. So we've got to limit this procreation and reproduction through birth control, abortion, you name it. And we've gotten really good at that. And so people can use these technologies. And these means of, you know, not having children. And that's what they're doing increasingly. So it's just it again, that's just there's so many factors that go into the breakdown of family. A couple more there. Yeah, go ahead.
Yeah. And not just the effects on the family, even it goes beyond that. I mean, if you look at almost any major crisis that we're seeing today, a lot of the issues can be traced back to the breakdown of the family. I mean, you go and do a survey in a prison and ask people what their family life was like, it's, you know, it's just, it's catastrophic. And we see this in all sorts of issues today is a lot of it can be traced back to, you know, a dad left or his parents divorced, or on and on and on.
Yeah, no, absolutely look, any kind of Social Pathology, crime, you name it. I mean, so much of it can be traced back to the deep brokenness that happens in people's lives when these when this most basic institution is broken. And I know this is so painful for a lot of people even to hear because this is like their life, they've lived this brokenness, and they're still in a lot of pain because of it. So we recognize just again, we want to start with, you know, kind of where we're at. It's pretty dark time. I mean, as we're going to see, we don't have to stay there. Right. So that's the good news, Jesus rose from the grave. And, you know, redemption is possible at the individual level, but also at the social level. And so there's going to be good news in this conversation. As to
my friends, thank you so much for joining us today. If you'd like to learn more about Gods designed for the family and its role in discipling nations, we have a list of resources that you might want to check out after this podcast, including our books. As goes the family so goes the nation by Elizabeth humans, Joe thrift and Scott Allen, or the book puddings for children in parting and biblical worldview, so they can thrive in that one is by Dwight VOGT And Karen Jacobson, or you can always check out our free online training courses, one of which is the grand design rediscovering male and female as Imago Dei, or the Monday church course with its four lessons on the vocation of the family. To learn more about any of these resources, just go to this episode's landing page, which you'll see linked in the description to this episode. And
yeah, I think that there's, you know, there's a lack of vision, you know, there's a lack of understanding what, what's God's intention for a family? How does one build a family? What is my role in the family? What do I look for in a good mate? You know, how do I raise children? These things seem to be, you know, everything that sucks life out of me rather than giving me life. And so I think we've, we've got a wrong idea. And, and I think, you know, it comes back to a lot of what Jesus talked about as far as servanthood. And, you know, that's, that's not popular to talk about families being an area of servanthood. As long as my kids are here to serve me, that's great, or my wife is here to serve me, that's great. But you want me to do what? So I think that I think the we need to recapture, you know, God's vision for the family. And what does that look like? And, and what what does it mean, when, when a function when a healthy family is functioning well? And then, you know, if Jesus words are true, which I think they are, like, he who gives away his life will will win, you know, and I think that we don't believe that I think we've we've bought the lie that no, that that doesn't really mean that I find life, that means that I'm just dying inside. And as a dad, and as a husband, there's been times when I felt like no, that does feel a little bit like death, you know, but there have been plenty of other opportunities where it does feel like life and it feels like, you know, there's something greater than me here. And as I give my life to that, I see God's goodness and God's fruit, not just in, in my family, but also is it as I capture vision for that, it's the kind of joy that that brings, to me is something that you can't find outside of that, you know, and I anyway, just think, um, you know, I don't I grew up going to go into church, and I didn't catch a vision for what a good family was supposed to look like. It was just kind of assumed, and not really talked about. And, and my dad, you know, he was a good guy, but he didn't have a vision for it whatsoever, you know. And so I think, if you don't have it, you can't pass it on. Yeah. And then therefore, we create a bit of a vacuum. Yeah,
the Bible talks about. Oh, go ahead. Wait. Yeah.
Well, I yeah, I just want to underscore that, I think, I think if we could do one thing in this podcast, it would be to leave people with either a vision for the family, or a desire to gain God's vision for the family. Because I really think at the end of the day, if you understand God's vision for the family, and the goodness, that's inherent in that, you will want it and then the hard work is worth it. I was with my son last week, and I was if there's anything I wanted to convince him of, it's like Luke, it is worth it. To have family. It is so worth it. Yeah, hard day's hard work. trying times. But wow, the blessing that comes from having godly children that are following the Lord and working hard and doing right. is nothing greater. Yeah, nothing. Yeah. And this on this earth,
at least, I want to testify to you, too. I. So I'm married, as you know. No, I think but what both of you said is really true. You know, it's marriage is something that requires a lot of you and it's going to teach you what it means to lay down your life and to serve others it kind of, because you have to, like it's it forces it on you right. And, you know, those are things that I don't like to learn none of us, all of us are kind of selfish, right? You know, and so, but it's going to force you out of that selfishness. And that's good. And what you're going to discover is that Jesus was right, exactly like you said, Shawn, that those who lay down their lives will find them. And there's incredible joy when you follow God's design. I mean, it's it's, it's some of the greatest joy that you'll ever experience. So not only is it good for communities, and for nations, it's good for you, because this is the way God designed you to live, you know, in these healthy families. And again, I just want to just quickly remind people this we're not just talking about husbands and wives, we're talking about every component here, you know, brothers, sister, you know, you name it, mother, father, etc. So they all have important roles to play. Before we leave the broken this though, I wanted to just touch on one one more area that this is one that I don't think gets much attention. I know Nancy Pearcey mentioned it in our recent podcast in relationship to her most recent book, the war, toxic war on masculine toxic war on masculine Eddie, thank you, Luke.
Yeah, also go listen to that episode. If you haven't yet, that wasn't fantastic interview, I really enjoyed it. And I know you guys will as well. And it has a lot to do with what we're talking about today really important book.
And she brought up the point that that biblically, families were designed by God, and we'll talk about this too, but they're designed as, as kind of mini communities of, you know, not just in terms of the relationship, but also in terms of, of even economic units. And for almost all of history, families kind of lived together as economic units as educational units. In other words, that kind of took care of themselves. And then, you know, also reaching out into the broader community as well. But, you know, in the family wasn't just the nuclear families, we understand it, but it was often grandparents that were in the mix. Uncles and Aunts, there was kind of this clan idea and that clan functioned economically. So for example, just the family farm right up until the Industrial Revolution, almost everybody worked on a family farm, up until the advent of public education in the 1930s 40s. whenever that was, I guess, maybe it was earlier than that. Education happened in families, right. So there were all these aspects of life that happened within families. The Greek word for this is oitavos. Or, according to me, as Darrow would say, just a basic unit of economy. You see this, for example, in the Bible with the was the Proverbs. What's 31? Proverbs 31 woman, right, you know, she's doing all of this economic work to bring a benefit to her family. Okay, since the Industrial Revolution, almost all of that's been stripped away.
Yeah, I actually have a stat for you on that. Yeah, I just saw this this morning, globally, 38% of families still live with their extended families and a family unit. However, in the US, it's dropped to only 11%. live near extended family. And like you were saying, what you see from that is the economy that goes along with having an extended family around you, there's all these roles that are being fulfilled, you know, right, the aunt is looking after the kids once a week, they uncle's cooking dinner once a week, now that we have that stripped away, we see that this, all of that, you know, those roles are cast on the parents without the extended families help or the single parent without the extended family. So and that just puts a lot more pressure on on the family unit. And it's not the pressure that that we're designed to carry by ourselves. Yeah, so that that that was an interesting, it's
true. So a lot more comes on on husbands and wives than probably used to be the case, but even their roles. So you think about the economic role. Now, if the economic role isn't really played in the house, you know, the advent of zoom and working from home has changed this a little bit. But you know, you leave home and you go to work. And that's true for husbands and wives, you leave the home, right? So the economic activity happens outside the home, the educational activity happens outside the home, even something as simple as cooking and eating meals happens outside the home now, right? So what's left in the home? I mean, nothing. Sleeping, right? Maybe watching TV before I go to bed, you know? And that's about it. And so you can see what's like, again, what's the point, right? Why do we even have these institutions, they don't mean anything to me, I don't get anything out of them. I mean, that's the way people tend to think. But that's a relatively new thing in the history of humanity, really, in the last couple of decades. And prior to that, it was never that way. You know, and even in many rural places around the world today, it's still not that way. There's still this basic functioning as a, as an economic unit. Any thoughts, more thoughts on that? I just think that's a really kind of an unspoken kind of neglected area of thought when it comes to the breakdown of families, but really important one as well. So
I, I'm thinking about what you just said, I'm going oh, my Yeah, because that does fray the few threads left in the family. I'm thinking about even my mother packed my lunch for school for for, you know, first six years of my schooling. And now you just go to school and buy it or the government feeds you. So you don't have a mother that put in something and a little napkin that has a smiley face on it, you know, and all that stuff. You know, it's missing that connection, right?
Ya know, and it's just one of Yeah, exactly do it. And the government often especially in totalitarian societies, they want to do that right. They want those roles stripped away from the family, essentially they want and they want to replace they want to replace the family. They don't want families as a as a, as a unit of politic of kind of a political unit, if you will, if you will, because they want all power, right? That's a diffusion of power when you've got these little states, if you will, you know, with their own kind of power structures, I don't like that. So, and we're seeing that you see that in every totalitarian system of the, you know, the 20th century, and you increasingly see it here in the United States. Right. So go ahead, sorry.
And so, so yeah, so what that means for me is that you have to be even clearer in terms of what it means to be a family. Because, you know, maybe the mother is working outside the home, and maybe she does buy, you know, they do buy the lunch for the kid and hits at school. That's, I mean, that's, that's all economic reality and political reality. But then you, I mean, it's even more important to know, what it means to be a family and what your roles are, and how you nurture one another because it's even more difficult, right? For sure. Natural, like it
was 100 years. If you weren't, you aren't kind of forced into it. Like you were right. Because yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Yeah, I think something simple to do that is to plan a meal every day together, you know, we, I grew up eating dinner, we ate dinner together, every, every evening. And you know, my mom would cook the meal and put it on the table. And then we would we would sit around the table together and eat and share our lives together, share what's happening in our day, what do we have coming up, et cetera, et cetera. But it was, you could just count on that. And that's something that we've tried to instill in our families that we dinner together every night, you know, and we try to make that priority.
You know, Shawn, there's been studies, I wish I had them in front of me, but just that one simple thing of, you know, just we're going to carve out and guard that meal together as a family has a huge impact on on the on the health of the family, just that one thing. So I will come back to this when we talk about kind of redemption, and how do we get back to what God intended but but there are things that we can that have been taken away functions, core functions of the family that week, I think to see it and then to go, how do we recover some of that, you know, it can be done right? It although it's it's not easy, but we'll talk more about that. I'd like to shift guys, and let's turn to the Scriptures. And let's look at this ideal of what God created. What is marriage? What is this family that that he created? Why did he create it? And let's answer some of those kinds of questions. And I thought what I would do is, let me just read some of the passages of scripture in Genesis one and two that, that speak to this, it's actually interesting. Genesis chapter one and chapter two are really important for so many reasons. Because you see, the whole biblical worldview kind of laid out You see, the biblical worldview actually laid out in the very first verse of Genesis chapter one. But But it goes on from there. And so much of God's intention is laid out, you know, really clearly in these first two chapters before the fall, which happens in in chapter three. So, yes, starting with verse 26, of chapter one of Genesis, then God said, Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish of the sea, and the birds of the sky, and the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground. So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God, He created them, male and female, He created them, and God blessed them, and said, Be fruitful, and increase in number, and fill the earth and subdue it. rule over the fish of the sea, and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground. And then picking up in Genesis chapter two, starting in verse 18, the Lord God said, it is not good for man to be alone, I will make a helper suitable for him. Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground, all the wild animals and all the birds in the sky, and he brought them to the man to see what he would name them. And whatever the man called each living creature, so it was its name. So the man gave named names to all the livestock and the birds in the sky and all the wild animals. But for Adam, no suitable helper was found. So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep. And while he was sleeping, he took one of the man's ribs, and then closed up the place with flesh. And then the Lord God made a woman from the rib that he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man and the man said, This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh. She shall be called woman for she was taken out of man and that is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh. And Adam and his wife were both naked, and they felt no shame. So, yeah, in those passages, you really see all of this kind of laid out. And I wanted to just there's so many things we could say, I do want to unpack the basics with you guys, I want to have you be thinking about kind of key points you want to make here. As we lay out these basic relationships, I'm just going to start with with one kind of initial thought, and that is that in Genesis chapter 27, it says, God created mankind, in His image, in the image of God, He created them male and female, He created them. So God created male and female, both in his image, and I think it's really important to just route this male and female back into God himself. Because we bear God's image, right? We were something like God as as human beings. And to be something like God means we have to be male and female, those two categories, which are under attack today are really basic and really important. Why did God have to create male and female? Well, because God Himself isn't a unity, but a plurality, right? He's a trinity, this is a really important Christian doctrine. God is both one, but three persons, you know, you see the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. So for us to bear the image of this kind of unity and diversity of God. It couldn't just be one thing, it had to be more than one thing, you had to have a man, a woman, male, female, that actually come together, procreate, and then there's a child, then you've got three things, this is very much kind of looking like the Trinity in some ways. And so this is part of what it means to be made in God's image. That's why I think this attack on male female is just such a fundamental kind of demonic attack on just such a basic, the most basic kind of structure here in terms of what it means to be a human being so male, female, and then we see how God brings them, you know, together as husband and wife. Yeah. What are your takeaways, guys on just the basic building blocks of both Marriage Marriage, which is the building block of family, right? But marriage and family are both laid out here? What are your What are your kind of takeaways and kind of key things you'd like to share?
As you were reading, I was thinking about some things Darryl, have shared with us, Darrow Miller, and just how, you know, God creates mankind in his image, male and female. And then he gives him the Dominion mandate and says, you know, subdue the earth, fill it. And in a sense, he's he's done that before. I mean, he immediately goes to multiply, which is, you know, we think of procreation and children and filling but, but if the stop just prior to that you have God represented in these two beings, totally represents I mean, not fully, but represented in male and female, and both of them have have the same mandate. And the same calling, and there's no oh, he created the male superior and the female inferior, and he made them both in his image, you know, there's nothing like that. It's just so I mean, there's this great equality that sits right there in the in the first verses of the Bible between male and female.
Yeah, the Bible shows this equality to it. But diversity as well, right. So this is this?
Yeah. Yeah, super diverse. Because you got, you got, you got men and women, right? The whole world has been defined by that ever since. And most of biology is defined by that. So that's huge distinction, huge distinction, and the
Bible has this basis for unity unity, and the fact that we're both male and female are, are fully, you know, fully bear God's image. And because of that have full dignity and full value and purpose. And as you said, they both equally have this job description that God gives right away to rule right to rule over this world, right? And that's part of what it means to be made in God's image to because God is the Creator, the owner and the ruler overall. But then he makes us in his image to rule right not at his level, obviously, we're created to but to rule as stewards as people that are accountable to him, but still to rule, and that's something that he gives that's a job description, if you will, that he gives to both Adam and Eve. And in fact, I think marriage and family are part of kind of how that is to be lived out this this job description of dominions. So yeah,
there was line on that subject is the one. We've said it before. But it's worth saying again, Unity without uniformity and diversity without superiority. And as a as a husband myself, that's something I always try to keep in mind is unity, but you know not uniformity, that that points to that diversity. And then again without superiority, our roles are different and yet there's no superiority and we see this exemplified in the Trinity again. So, again, just pointing back to that God is in relationship in his diversity, and yet in his unity, and that's, that's a model for the family as well. Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, I think that it's interesting that God took something from Adam to make Eve, and there's a sense of where he could have done it without. And obviously, He created Adam, without Eve. So he could have done the same. But there's a sense of, there's this connectedness now, a man and woman together that they're, they're connected beyond just, you know, emotionally or, but they're there, they shared the same kind of DNA. So there's something really unique there. But I think also that, then as they come together, they create something that's also as Adam says, bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh. And then there's a tied responsibility to that, which I think we also negate in the family that men are responsible, they're responsible for the children they create, you know, they're responsible to the women that they marry. And it is not something to be taken lightly. It's something that you are, you're held accountable to, and I think, you know, with with the destruction and the downplaying of what a man is, and all the toxic toxicity that supposedly goes along with that, we're also losing the benefit of what, how God created man, and the responsibility that he's created man to have and to carry along. And then how God uses man to be a provider and a protector and all the other things that a man is to his wife and to his children. And without that something's missing in the family.
Yeah. Yeah, you mentioned some of the roles there of the, of the husband, provider and protector. And we see some of this, of course, later in the scriptures that we also see right here, kind of the job description is given for, for the wife for Eve, she's to be a helper, it says, you know, I will make a helper suitable for him. And that word helper is really interesting. I think often we think of it as kind of a role of inferiority like, you know, Adam, the man is in the superior role, and the wife is kind of his servant, this his helper. But this is not at all, I think, the biblical idea, right? In fact, God himself is often referred to as our helper, right? And it's the one that, you know, has the need that needs the help, right? It's in some ways, it's the it's the weaker one that needs the help. I need help. Help. Right? I'm calling for help, you know, and so here comes Eve right to help right? And, and so again, God didn't need to do it this way. You could have made man I suppose, completely self sustaining and independent. But he didn't. He said, You need a helper, right? Somebody to help you in this task, of ruling and of dominion that I've given you. So we see a job description there as well.
That also reminds me again, I keep going back to this but the Trinity. The word helper there for Eve in Hebrew is Azur. And the other times that we see that in the Bible are once or multiple times describing the Holy Spirit, yes, as our helper. And again, there's no superiority within the Trinity. No, and yet it uses that word to describe the Godhead. Yeah,
they're different roles husband and wife, but they're essential roles, and there's not an inferiority to either of their their roles. So I think that needs to be said. And the other thing that you see here too, guys, is you know, again, Genesis, chapter one, verse 28. God said to them, now male and female and we see that them refers to Adam and Eve as husband and wife, you know, be fruitful and increase in number, fill the earth. That is again right away. This is kind of the the job description, if you will, the purpose. One of the key purposes of marriage, it's procreation, Be fruitful and increase fill the earth. And that's it. mandate gets repeated numerous times throughout the scriptures. You for example, you see this after the flood, right? And the same command is given to Noah and his sons and their wives, right to do the same thing. And the picture here is, I think it's often interesting what why does God want the world, the earth filled with people, because they're made in His image to bring Him glory, right. And the there's these passages, you see it, kind of these, you see it in Habakkuk, the earth will be filled with a knowledge of the glory of God, as the waters cover the seas. It's kind of this picture of what God what he wants, you know, and in order for that to happen, these image bearers of God, you know, that he loves that are so valuable, so precious, and that have this Dominion mandate to take what God has made and to make new things with it. They need to increase and fill the earth, this is something that really is important and pleasing to God. And yet, that's again, we live at a time when that's completely you know, I mean,
right, humans are a
blight. Humans are a blight, they need to be decreased. They need to be right, we need to decrease the surplus population is, as Scrooge said, in the Christmas Carol, right.
It really is ironic, because, you know, to think that, that God created this earth and put it here with all these resources, then he put men and women here to to develop. And, and yet, we tend to think, Well, if we could just erase, not we, there's a thought that says, if we could just eliminate all people, the world would return to its natural, beautiful state, it would be perfect again. And they had God looked at the world and said, No, no, I want to develop this landscape. I want to develop this real estate. And human beings made in my image are the ones that are going to do it. Yeah. And so he has a completely different vision for the earth than the Neil just you know,
absolutely what he sees. I think of Elizabeth humans and you know her she talks a lot about Elizabeth humans, the the founder and the director of Chrysalis International, wonderful ministry, educational ministry. And she talks about children and she's, you know, a biblically a child is this precious image bearer of God with a purpose. In other words, God makes us with this unique role to play in his great story of redemption. And so every child is important and and you see that right, even with your own kids, right? Just man, what would the world be like without them? It's hard to imagine because they're so God's got such an important role for them to play. And, again, we're not used to thinking that way. I think we tend to think of kids as kind of like this thing that's like an ornament that will kind of decorate my own life, maybe I'll have one maybe I'll have to, you know, it's kind of a selfish thought, right? Or man, they're just a lot of work or man, they cost a lot of money, right? We tend to think these ways and but I just don't think this is the way God thinks at all about children. Right. So.
That's, that's a, that's an interesting point. I, I hear this all the time. Amongst my age group, you know, when are you going to have kids? And I always think that's a funny question. It's like, when God gives me kids, you know, their gift from him? Why would I turn down a beautiful gift? They're unique. And also, like we just said, it's his first command to us as humans be fruitful. And, you know, it's not first for no reason. That's a it's important. It's a it's good to keep in mind, I love what our tour Kuba, one of the trainers from South America says about this be fruitful. He has a whole series on it in our 31 days, a worldview wisdom podcast. And yeah, by the way, this be fruitful concept doesn't just have to do with procreation. It has to do with just us as humans, our ingenuity, our creativity, our you know, it really sets the stage for, for God's next commission of be stewards and take dominion. That can all be lumped in to be fruitful.
Yes. And especially when we understand this, this Dominion in its fullest, you know, I think, fullest kind of sense. It's not just sitting on a throne and issuing orders to animals, you know, or something like that. It's, it's, it's, you know, God has made us in his image as creators, right, as well as just because he's a creator, He created everything. So where to where to look at what God created, where to kind of apply our ingenuity and our creativity to the things that God has given that he has made. And we're to create new things from that, right? And though those things that we create, bring glory to God, right? And, yeah, every individual has that capacity, to be creative, to create wealth, to create beauty, to innovate. And I think this is really what it means to fill the earth right to fill the earth with the glory of God, It all brings glory to God, and it's very pleasing to Him, right? So I think rightly, understanding that Dominion piece is just so important. I know, for so many years of my Christian faith, I had no clue what what that really meant, you know, and so I just kind of discounted, it didn't really take it seriously didn't think it was that important. But man, it's so basic to what it means to be a human being and, and the value of human beings, you know, as creators,
not just think in what you're saying, Scott, I just think it's important to look back to the first the first verse of Genesis and in the beginning, God created, and I think, I think oftentimes, we, we forget that and we think, Oh, it's up to me now to create a vision. And it's up for me to figure out how to make this stuff happen, and what this will looks like and how this works. But we negate the fact that God is committed to us, that God has a vision for us and that God has. So kind of strapped himself to us in a sense, like, he will, he will provide for us, He will, He will give us guidance, He will give us direction, he will help us to accomplish what he's called us to do. And I think the the idea that we've been created, and now it's up to us to figure out that's a that's not a biblical worldview. You know, that's, that's something else. But it's not a biblical worldview that doesn't think of God as being active and present in my life. He's outside of it. And maybe I can go to him as a sage for advice, but he doesn't really commit himself to me. And I don't think that that's quite true. I think God wants to see us flourish, she wants to see families flourish. He wants to see us come back to the vision that he's called us to, and and to live that out. And that'll bring great glory to Him and great joy and fulfillment to us.
Absolutely. Well, it goes on in Genesis chucklehead. White Yep, sorry.
Oh, no, I thought was weird. You're talking about the role of creating creators having children who then are fruitful as Luke, you said, and I was thinking of a teaching I did a while back for some, some young men and, and you were talking about the peace, promote our, you were talking about protect, and provide. And I added, promote and prepare, thinking about the fact that we create creators, so we promote, and we prepare our children to become who God made them to be, so that they can fulfill that cultural mandate, and you know, through them or through their lives. And so that's part of the part of the role of the father and a mother.
Absolutely, then, there's a lot more we can say about the roles. And I think we should we should get into that too, because there are some unique and some defined roles within marriage and within family. But but just I wanted to just I know we're kind of running out of time at this particular podcast, but I just want to highlight Genesis chapter two, starting in verse 22, where you see the first, essentially wedding ceremony because I think it's really beautiful here. The Lord God made woman from the rib that he had taken out of man, and then the Lord, he brought her to the man. And I just think that picture of God kind of you can almost imagine God, you know, arm and arm with Eve, walking down the aisle. And there's Adam at the front, right? And you know, when Adam says, This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh. This is a poem, this is a song. So there's a motion here, he's rejoicing, right? He was alone and now, right? He's not. And so there's great joy here, right? And he calls her a woman, for she was taken out of man and verse 24. And this is why a man leaves his father and mother. So marriage is this unique thing where we leave behind our family, if you will, and start a new family. We don't leave them behind. Completely. I think what this is referring to here is the authority we leave behind the authority of our father and mother and we start a new authority structure, if you will, a new family, we're united to our wives to our husbands and we become one flesh and children come from that one flesh union. And all of us participate at some level in families, right? We are all like part have this thing that God created right here in Genesis chapter one and chapter two, you know, and it shapes it defines us very deeply. But I just, I just think this picture here, this, this picture of the of the first marriage is really powerful. And so a couple of really obvious things to say about what marriage is here from Genesis number one and number number chapter one and chapter two is, it's a union between a man and a woman, right? So not a man and a man, not a woman and a woman or not a man and many women, right? That we're not seeing those patterns. Those things are all common in the fallen world, but they're not laid out here. This is not what God wants, or those are not what God wants. This is what God wants a man and a woman. And not by the way, not a man and an animal. Okay, either, right? So
gotta be real clear. Gotta
be real clear these days. Yeah, or a man and a child, or whatever it is, it's really getting bad and gross these days. But, but care, this is what you see, it's a man and a woman. It's a one flesh union. And as we're going to see later in, as the Bible goes on, it's, it's for life. It's, it's, it's a covenant relationship for life. So these are the basics. This is what it is, this is what it's looking like, and it's intended for procreation. And when children are brought into this marriage unit, it becomes family. And those children are to be raised by primarily by husbands and wives, mothers and fathers. They're to be educated primarily by them, as we're, we're going to see later, as we look at some other passages. And the goal, what God wants, as it says, In the Book of Malik is he's looking for godly offspring. He wants this nurturing, and this educational and disciplinary role to happen in the home, so that the children that come out of the home, are raised in the knowledge and the fear of the Lord and our godly offspring. That's the kind of people that he wants to fill the earth, if you will. So that's all part of this ideal thoughts on any of that, guys, I know, that's a lot. But that's, that's all kind of this basic picture that we get here in the first two chapters.
I was thinking on that word godly. And I'm thinking what does that mean? Well, that means, you know, it's just a spiritual halo around their head that they are and they're recording Scripture all the time. I'm thinking, no, they're actually functioning, like God made them to function. So a godly child is one who's really embracing life has God intended him or her to, and it's hugely holistic.
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. It's a it's a real blessing, you know, family is, again, it's this gives us a sense of identity, it gives us a sense of belonging, of protection, of provision, all of these things that we need, God says, I'm going to provide for you, because I love you, I care for you, I'm going to do that in the context of this most basic social unit, it's all going to happen here. And that's why it's so important. And it's so important that we get this, we get this right and try to recover this.
Yeah, I, I'm really enjoying this. As you guys know, I'm new to this game, at least raising my own family. Two and a half years in five months into the fatherhood stage, and I'm taking notes, this is fun. But yeah, just as a reminder, like you're talking about the beginning of this, this is the ideal, these are the principles. This is God's framework for what he wants a Nicollet family to look like in a fallen world. It hardly ever does look like this. But it is great always to look back at the ideals. You know, we see that in Proverbs 31, where God kind of lays out that ideal the ideal mother and the ideal woman, and we see it also in Titus one what a biblical or a godly man has to look like. Same thing here this is, especially here at the beginning of Genesis, this is what the ideal marriage has to look like. So the applications here, which I'd like to talk about these a little bit more here at the end. There's, there's so many, but you can if we if we really focus on again, the principles, the applications flow from there. So yeah, I'm not the one that should be addressing the application since I'm new to this. So I'd like to hear that from all you guys.
Well, this is going to be the first in we'll do at least two podcasts, Luke on this and so we don't have to get everything into this one. Right. And we'll probably do more than that. It deserves a lot of attention. I mean, every one of these aspects, we can have an entire podcast and more on just the role of a husband or wife or the the educational role that's supposed to happen within the family. But so there's a lot of application I think I would just simply encourage people to to look at this, you know, I was reminded, you know, a few years ago, I look In the dictionary that is loaded into my laptop, you know, from Microsoft. And when you look at marriage in the word marriage in that dictionary, you don't see a picture that's laid out here in Genesis one and two, it doesn't talk about male and female, because marriage now has been defined legally in the United States, in many countries, as a union that can be same sex. So it's redefined. And that's being taught to our children in schools and promoted through laws. And we're all learning this kind of broken, distorted picture of what this is. So I think the application today, in some ways, just go back to the original and really look at it. And, you know, don't just put aside all of the brokenness that you've probably experienced in your own life related to this, and just try to get a picture of what the non broken thing looks like. And because it all starts with that, we have to understand what God created and intended here. And then we can begin to deal with the brokenness and there is hope there for sure. There's real hope that broken things can be restored, as we talked about, we'll talk more about that. So
yeah. And I mean, we were talking about this at the beginning, also, but this actually works, you know, it Yes, it works. You know, selfishly, we hear it or like, self sacrifice, serving, you know, putting down the needs of myself or others. I don't know, you know, but like, you guys, were saying that joy that comes with that the contentment that comes with that that true healthy relationships,
the beauty that comes with it, you know,
absolutely. If we just look at the statistics, you know, if you want just the factual, you know, numbers that lay this out, God's design for marriage, his biblical design for marriage, with a healthy father and mother, raising kids, a father and mother that on a weekly basis, go to church or involved in church, these these families, you can see it statistically, have the highest have the highest amount of happiness, the lowest numbers of domestic abuse, these families actually work, you can look up the stats. So for any of you skeptics out there, I'd encourage you to look that up, because God's design always works.
Yeah, Nancy Pearcey brings that out in our book again, and she's looking at secular social science research on this. So you know, if you're right loop got following God's design, it works, it works for our good and for, again, not just our good, but for the good of entire communities and nations. Because unless this thing is working, well, everything is going to fall apart. And we are living in a time where our nations are really suffering. And a lot of it comes back to to this brokenness. But to me, there's, there's a, there's a silver lining there too, because, you know, I know for me, sometimes when I feel like, gosh, discipling nations, how do I change a nation? It seems overwhelming, like it's too big, what can I do to affect an entire nation. But what God is saying is, I'm going to change a nation, but I want you to focus on that most basic nation, if you will, that most basic social unit that you can make a difference with, because these are people in your lives deeply. This is your family focus there, start there. Don't disciple the nation, disciple your family, right, you know, you can do something there, right? That you can have some goals, you can make some. You can have a vision, you can create some goals, you can do something that's that's in the realm of your agency and your choices. And that's how it starts actually, that's the most important thing maybe any of us can do to carry out this great task of the Great Commission. So
that's really a good reminder, Scott, and because it makes it doable. Yep. I mean, it's not. It's still hard. Yes. But at least
it's so hard. We need God's help. But yeah, right. Yeah.
Yeah, exactly. But at least you can get your mind around it. And I like to reminded what you said the beginning to that, adding complexity to complexity. Family is husband and wife, mother and father and children, but it's also when you're our age, it's brothers and sisters. It's the mother, it's the it's the grandfather, people who need so it's this extended family that also needs God's redemption. Always. Yes. And I'm so that's, but it's, it's just that it's that big, and it's that important. Yes,
it is. It's it's big and it goes on. You see the grandfathers in the uncles and the ONS, they become clans and those clans become the basis for the nation like for example, right. You see the nation of Israel is comprised of the clans right? You know, To the 12, sons of Jacob, exactly. So they become the 12 tribes, they become the nation. So the family is the seed of the nation. It really is. And so it's, we think of the family is just this very simple nuclear thing. And it is. It's that's not to minimize that it's super basic and important. But it's bigger than that. And it's actually it's actually it will. Yeah, we didn't talk about this today. But it's multigenerational, too, right. I mean, so it's this because, yeah, because it's children and grandchildren and great grandchildren, it spans generations. And it's really important for us to think about that, too. You know, those generations past have had an influence on who I am. And you are. And it's exciting for me to think about the generations to come and the influence that I can have on them, and I can, the decisions that I make will affect them. So, guys, that's enough for today. I'm looking forward to our next discussion on this, but But thanks for your terrific insights. And I want to get next time we talked about this really a little bit more into your own families. Dwight, you talked about your family, but Shana, you've got a unique family with adopted children. And I want to get into that too, because it's really beautiful picture of family there. That's, that's very powerful and unique. I think so well. We'll talk a little bit more about that. But guys, thank you again for listening to another episode of ideas have consequences is the podcast of the disciple nations Alliance.
Hi, friends. Yes, thank you so much for joining us today. A few quick notes before we wrap up for any of you who would like to continue to dive into today's important topic. Firstly, as we mentioned today, this is just part one of a multiple part series on the role of families and discipling nations. Next week, you'll hear us as well as two special guests discuss the unique roles that the mother the father and the children all play in the family. And after that, we'll have an episode on the theology of singleness. And then later on, we will also look at how to live faithfully in light of the brokenness that so many faiths do to their families. So again, we encourage you to join us for that series here on ideas have consequences. So if you haven't already, make sure to go to the podcast platform that you prefer, and follow this podcast, and that way, you'll be notified every time that one of these episodes is launched. Speaking of upcoming episodes, we have a very exciting announcement and that is that in a few weeks, we're going to be joined by guest, Dr. Bob Woodson. I'm sure many of you will recognize him from his recent appearance on the Uncle Tom documentary, or his excellent discussion that he had a few months ago on Dr. Phil Woodson is an American civil rights activist. He's a leader, author and the founder and president of the Woodson center. You'll definitely not want to miss that discussion which will be coming out in August. Ideas have consequences is brought to you by the disciple nations Alliance. To learn more about our ministry you can find us on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube or on our website, which is disciple nations.org. Thanks again for listening, and we'll catch you next week.
