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Hi, this is George Abraham and welcome to yet another episode of Eyeway Conversations. Today, my guest is a good friend, Ketan Kothari, who works with Sightsavers India. Hi Ketan, welcome to the show. Hi, George, thank you for having me. You've been working with Sightsavers for a while. And before that with the National Association for the Blind, you have been traveling across the country, you've been involved with projects across the country. So what are some of the key observations and concerns you have?
The foremost area of concern is of course accessibility. And unfortunately, what tends to happen is that our requirements of accessibility as what I mean by ours is the blind community's requirement of accessibility are a bit different from those of orthopedically disabled people. And our accessibility is very human intensive, you see the, you know, just by putting a Braille signboard or those kinds of things are, they are good, but they are not the end of accessibility. And ours is a continuous process, which has to undergo changes as and when the need arises, unlike orthopedically disabled, where once you've made certain adjustments relating to spatial constructions, etc, you've probably done your bit. And the other concern is that, especially in the rural areas, the blind are not, they're very visible as such, but not visible in the sense that, you know, you see them wherever they are there, they're pretty vocal. But very few that are there, in the sense that there if it's there in the community, but very few come out, because still that stigma is there in the rural areas, and all said and done, blind people's rehabilitation is not as much as it should have happened in these last almost 75 years of India's existence.
You know, you've been involved with several advocacy campaigns. Can you name two campaigns which you felt were very important? You felt satisfied at the end of the day...
The banking one and the copyright.
Can you talk a little bit about them?
You see, prior to 2008, the banks were not willing to let the blind customer open an independent account on his own. Savings account, or even FD, it had to be a joint account. Yeah. And that we got changed in 2008, along with many other organizations, Sightsavers and other organizations were also involved. A bit of work was also done by Eyeway, I'm fully aware of that. Yeah. And so it has evolved a long way from then. Now blind people are also using internet banking, they are also using a credit and debit cards, they are also using apps. So and now even though now there are still in rural areas, you still have people who don't listen to you who don't bother to go by the guidelines or you have to struggle, but more or less things have come a long, long way since 2008. The other thing was copyright. Earlier, we all know that we were not allowed to even copy anything for our study purposes. We were doing it all right. We were all doing it illegally. Everybody does it. But we were not allowed, and it was a big struggle to get our copyright law amended. I remember we met Mr. Kapil Sibal, an eminent lawyer, and who was then the HRD Minister, and I and some of the other representatives of the organizations had met him in 2009 or 10. I just, it slipped me in November. And we had explained to him the problems that we were facing. And you know, he patted me on the shoulder and he told me, you must learn to live with problems. You can't get everything that you want. And it was the same gentleman who took pride in getting the copyright law amended to our benefit and then claim it that it was his doing and then, you know, kind of brag, Okay, see I did your work. So and then that led to another, you know treaty in the World Intellectual Property Organization, WIPO, which is known as Marrakesh Treaty. So Indian amendment has led to this international treaty, which has been now ratified by more than 150 countries, including the United States, which has not yet ratified the CRPD. So, these two campaigns have been really satisfactory. But I must also say, George, that once you do advocacy, you can't relax even on those issues. Because things keep changing, and you have to be always alert and on your feet, so that you don't, you know, come to a situation where you lose what you gained.
Just moving a little away, you know, we've known each other for many years now. And I would be curious to know a little bit about what were the origins of your visual disability? And what was your childhood like? How was your family and what were your growing up years like?
My father once narrated to me, and only once he told me that incident, that he apparently had dreamt a week prior to my birth. Yeah. I mean, I really don't believe in dreams. But now, I don't know. It's probably Providence. He said that he dreamt it somebody told him that if you get a boy, he will be disabled. Right. And if you get a girl, she will be very pretty. Right. Very pretty. So when I was born, I always draw you know that when a child is born, the child cries and the world laughs. Right. The world is joyous. Oh, we... and that too firstborn. Right. So when I was born, I also cried and the world also cried. Remember, this was some 50 odd years ago. Right. So the awareness was not so much there. When a blind child is born, there was total, you know, Oh God now, and I was a lower middle class Gujarati family. Yeah, we reasonably well to do I mean, we were not rich but reasonably well to do. And in those days, as you all know, the expectations were also not very high. Yeah. We were, you know, a very contented family. So when I was born, I'm told that there was not very, you know, not high amount,
No celebrations.
And to top it all, I was born with a boil on the right side of my head, which had to be removed on the third day, which led to a fair amount of blood loss. Right. So people were also worried that oh, God now because if this infant loses so much of blood, whether his cognitive abilities will be retained. Okay, because remember, those years were not medically advanced. Then I was admitted to a nursery. That was also an accident because my mother had some problem, some fibroid that needed to be removed. And the operation happened in a nursing home where there was a nursery for the blind on the top floor. Yes. And since I was, you know, I wasn't, I was a three year old kid. Yeah. All this. I'm telling you, from what I've heard, okay. Yes. So I was just, you know, like how children are, you know, playing or, you know, wandering and creating little bit of trouble for my father. Yeah. Well, somebody from the nursery saw me. She must have come down. Yeah. She told me that in any case, you have to stay the day here the whole day here. Why don't you let him you know, sit with our other children who are also like him? Yeah. And that's how I got admitted to the nursery. This was NAB Mata Lakshmi Nursery for the blind, which you must have certainly heard about. Yeah. And from then onwards, I went to the Happy Home School for the Blind. I had a reasonably good education there. I will say that time that was one of the best schools for the blind in India. I completed my matriculation and then went to a five year college. I was a very studious person. Yeah. Not somebody who would bunk lectures much, go around with, you know girls. So I had good readers also, very good readers, I must say very dedicated readers, in fact. And so I...
These readers were your classmates?
They were my classmates also, but I used to read a lot. I mean, I used to, for example, I was doing Political Science. I never like to refer to textbooks. I used to refer to the reference books that teachers used to prescribe in the class, which not many use. Yeah. So I used to require about six to seven hours, because I used to take all notes in Braille. Lots and lots of notes in Braille. Yeah. So although I had very exhaustive notes, my notes were not very popular, because people would say, who will read so much? Yeah. So, no, so I had classmates, who used to read to me occasionally, but I had other readers, family, you know, who had become friends, like, you know, I got to know somebody, then that person introduced somebody else. And Papa knew somebody, all that. And those were very dedicated people. I remember people had read to me at 11 o'clock in the night also. Right. And never ever bothered to charge me for that. In fact, I was a gold medalist in my Masters. And that also, when I didn't appear for my first year exam. I sat for two exams in one year, October and April. Yeah. And, you know, I just said that, you know, I was given gold medals, nobody else was there to take. So my reader felt bad. You know, she said, You please don't say all that, because you're insulting us. Right. Because all of us have worked together and worked hard. So overall, my childhood was pretty, pretty good, I should say. And good friends, I the only one of the few things for which I'm very grateful to God is that I have till now been surrounded by loving and good people.
And after your Masters, you joined NAB, professionally?
Yeah I was very reluctantly, I joined NAB. Actually, I wanted to be a lecturer. Yeah. But then I also felt that you know, the first job comes your way you shouldn't refuse it. I was earlier working as part time lecturer, maybe one lecture a day or whatever, not even part time lecturer, clock hour basis, as we call it. Right. So that was not very paying. You know, this was in '93. So NAB had a vacancy, Employment Officer. Yeah. And they had three rounds of interviews, you know, so I was just joking. I said, who'll give me a job. Nobody will give me. Once I had gone to the NAB boss, you know, Dr Vyas, you know about him. Yes. Dr Vyas and I said NAB should give me job. This was before that vacancy was announced. Yeah. He got extremely angry on me. He said, What? What do you think of yourself? How do you say that you have a right to a job in NAB. Right. You know, you have to prove yourself, which is right. I was very angry with him that time. Now when I, you know, look back. I said, Yeah, well, what he said was right. You can't deserve a job anywhere just because you know, that organization works for your cause. Yep. So then we had interviews, so they said, we cannot employ you as Employment Officer. We have another vacancy. Hadley School for the Blind requires an Officer. So we'll employ you. Yeah. And that's how I got into NAB in '93. Yeah. And then of course, I grew there, you know that. Yeah. I was there till 2005. I worked in BarrierBreak for six months. It was not BarrierBreak in those days. It was Nexus again, you know, the owner fairly well. And then I came back to NAB. Yeah. In a different role. I was in a Resource Mobilization role, which was, again, a very new role. And much that I learned, actually Shilpi taught me a lot about advocacy. Let me be very honest with you. Right. In the six months that I worked with Shilpi, I learned a lot. And Shilpi was a taskmaster. Let me also tell you. Of course, in her times, and my times, people were not ready to listen to our pleas as they are now. Yeah. Now legal mandate and global things have changed a lot for disability in a positive manner. Yeah. But she was one of the first ones who, from the mainstream society, who started working for accessibility and all those things for which I will always give her credit. Yeah. And then I came back to NAB and then I met Sightsavers in some other context. Yeah. Resource mobilization. Yeah. That didn't work out. I met Miss Elizabeth Kurien again, whom you know. Yeah. And then they had a vacancy. So I had applied and that's how I mean, and Sightsavers, after joining Sightsavers, it has been a very interesting journey for 13 years, a lot of learning.
Right from the time I've kind of met you, I've noticed that you had a penchant for reading, and reading a lot of books. And so how did you get interested in reading and how do you go about pursuing this passion of yours?
That credit must go to Miss Meher Banaji of Happy Home School for the Blind. Yeah. You know, in those days, Happy Home had very good collection of Braille books in library. And library was only open for students of fifth standard and above. Yes. Because most of them were not kids books. Very few were there. Yes. But I was again I was her pet, so to say and you know, we used to talk. I was a big, you know, I used to love talking, chatting. Yeah. So, one fine day it just happened, I said I want to read in Braille. You know, I am not able to sleep at night so soon. Because 8.30 you're supposed to sleep by 8.30-9. Yeah. And at home we used to sleep by 11. Yeah. So then she said, Okay, okay, I'll make an exception. In the first or second standard, I remember, I was the only child in Happy Home School for the Blind, who had access to library. Right. Who was not fifth standard or above. Yeah. And I used to read, half the books I never understood also. Okay. Right. I just read. Yeah. Now when I think back I, I really thank my stars that I did read then. So then that progressed. And then, you know, as the time passed, and of course, there was this Talking Book Studio of NAB, RNIB books. Those books were acquired somehow. And then, of course, Kindle came through, after a lot of years, and I'm just jumping. Yeah. The reason why I love reading, George, is that, you know, it gives you a lot of thought, because every experience you can't take in life, right? Yep. So while reading, you get other people's experiences, and you tend to either learn from it, or at least know how the world is around you. So that's why I love reading.
Another very interesting thing that I have noticed about you Ketan over the years, is your passion for sport.
One minute before we go there. I'll also say, yeah, that the books, that the genre that I enjoy reading most is the biography/autobiography bit, because even if you feel, even if you accept that autobiographies are written in a biased manner, it will show people the best side of that particular person. Yeah. Still you can filter it, right. Sure. Then you can also read his biography. Yeah. And biographies are not generally unless they are paid biographies, generally not written in a biased manner. Right. So I and then that's how you know how people behave in a particular situation, right. Sure. So I love, that's my favorite genre. Yeah. I'm coming to sports. Yeah. Again, sports is something that I don't know how it developed, but it did develop and I was never a good cricket player by the way. I am talking to a person who started Blind Cricket in India in a big way. We used to play in schools but that was only in school, right? Yeah. But you were the one who actually started it nationally and internationally. Yeah. So but I was never a good player, but I always enjoyed cricket. I must also say George that the English that you hear me speak today, because nobody speaks English in my family. I mean, nobody spoke then. Now of course there are people who are younger than me who have been educated and do speak. All credit goes to, most of the credit goes to cricket and the BBC World Service. That's where I learned my English and All India Radio, good old All India Radio, not the present one. Yeah. I learned my English and even Hindi. Because when I speak Hindi, nobody will say that I'm a Gujarati speaking Hindi or Maharashtrian speaking Hindi. I've learned it from BBC and good cricket commentary. And then tennis. I remember the match between, I mean, the first Wimbledon that I now remember, which I kind of, I would say followed but yeah. Borg-McEnroe final. 1980. Yeah, 1980 yeah. The last Borg-McEnroe final.
Yeah, that was a phenomenal match.
Absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, I was very sad when Borg announced his retirement at such a young age. Right. I used to love McEnroe making all sorts of noises on the court. You can't be serious. He named also his autobiography, You can't be serious.
As we were speaking a little earlier, you know, in the good old days in the 1970s and early 80s you know, the cricket and the sport was generally kind of promoted and broadcast and covered quite elaborately on both the BBC World Service as well as All India Radio. But with the advent of television, and now with the advent of the Internet, sport coverage has got a little scattered and for a blind person it's become a little difficult to kind of follow the game the way we did it in the 70s.
And it does, but it also has other advantages right. If you have proper apps installed, you can follow. In fact now, even where there are no ball by ball commentary, and I still manage to listen to ball by ball commentary through VPN, in most cases. Very few exceptions. But so that's scattered yes, but there's a positive side to it also, right, George. Because now you can hear your players talk a lot. You have these podcasts, you have a conversation like if you're cricbuzz plus subscriber like I am, then you can listen to the players which you didn't in those days. Yeah. Those days if you heard Sunil Gavaskar's voice once, you thought Oh God, wow, what, I'm hearing Sunil Gavaskar's voice. Yes. I remember when I heard first time, when Sunil Gavaskar had come to Happy Home, along with Gaekwad and Jimmy Amarnath, I still remember I asked a very silly question. I asked that to Mr. Gavaskar, Why do you not get out and always Mr. Gaekwad has to get out. Yeah. You remember the good old days when Gavaskar and Gaekwad used to be the opening pair. Yes, yes. I mean, they just laughed because what what would they answer? Yeah. Of course I was very small that time, I was some eight-nine year old. So obviously they also may not have taken this very seriously.
So Ketan, it's been wonderful kind of chatting with you and thank you very much for sparing your time and wish you all the very best.
Well thank you George for this.
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