Welcome to Neurodivergent Space Time. I'm your host, Sarah Shotts. I'm autistic and possibly ADHD. I'm also an author, artist, academic and parent. This podcast is an experiment in creating a neurodivergent space. That means I won't be masking I won't be performing different energy levels than what is natural at the time. I won't be editing to make myself sound more neuro typically professional or articulate. This is just me. Let's go
I'm so excited to introduce you to today's guest, Morgan Harper Nichols. You may know Morgan's work from Instagram. She's also written three books and made products for lots of different stores. Morgan is an autistic artist, poet and musician. We have so much in common we basically forgot we were podcasting. There's links to everything we mentioned down in the show notes. And without any further ado, let's go
I have the recording already going partly so I don't forget to turn it on. But also I've noticed I'm like really rusty at podcasting. And when I do the whole, like, hi, let's talk his people. And then I turn on like my podcast mode. It kind of messes everything up. So I thought maybe we'll just go super casual and like talk as humans and get it out there.
Yes, we are on the same page. Everything you just said. I like yep, that's that's my experience every day. So do you want me to record on my inend too just so you have it? Yeah, um, like, it's always just one less thing to worry about when it's like I was like, and it's like, okay, there's multiple versions going. Which funny fact I found out. I mean, it's not really funny. But fun fact, I guess I casually mentioned that to my dad, who doesn't, it's not a podcaster. But he has pastored and preached. And my grandfather was too. And he told me so the our grandfather who we think could have possibly been on the spectrum. And he said that, even back in the day like my grandfather, always, anytime he spoke somewhere, he always had like three tape recorders going, which is so funny to me. He was like he was always just like so particular about having multiple versions of things. And I was like, that's so fascinating. I never do that. And I do the same thing. So yeah, yeah, I don't know.
I heard a podcast recently with Neil Gaiman. Like he, before he started writing his own books. He was like an interviewer person. And he lost a really important interview because he didn't have a backup recording. And so he's like, I always have a backup recording now.
Yeah, it's just yeah, it's like, why not? So yeah, so
but my dad was a preacher too. So like, we have a lot in common.
Oh, my goodness. I know. And like our kids are the same age. It's wild.
It's crazy. Yeah, I'm pretty sure my whole family is like some flavor of the spectrum. We just didn't know. Back then. Yeah. So it's really fascinating.
Yeah, it's really interesting. Looking back now, I different family members and different things. I'm like, Oh, it makes sense. Like so. Yeah, I'm, I am glad to know now. Like, it's like, I wish I knew earlier, but I'm glad I know. Now. I'll just say yeah, yeah, glad I know.
It's really interesting. Like, I got my tangle here. Um, I love it. It's really interesting having a kid and thinking about like, because David's already been diagnosed as autistic. And we just know that about him. Like, that's part of how we understand him and how different that is from growing up and thinking that all of my autistic traits were my character flaws.
Yeah, yeah, it's yeah, that's definitely my experience. I feel like I'm not. I, I felt like I spent so many years thinking that I was like, oh, there's just so much I need to fix about myself one day, I'm gonna grow up when I'm gonna grow up. And I don't know if you feel this way about creativity. And I would love to hear your thoughts on this too. But I feel like in a way I don't even know what a I'm like, Is my, it's autism causing the art, like, in a way. Like I don't, I like I can't even imagine what it was when I think about everything that was informing. So I used to write stories all the time. It's kids as a kid. I had like this really, really like robust imaginary friend world. Like they were friends outside of me. Like they have like a whole other universe that they belong to, like it was so in depth. And when I think about all of that, I was just like, I was just trying to cope. Like all of that was me trying to like, find a way in the world. And I feel like people would see that as a kid like, Oh, she's so artistic. She's so creative, which I was. But I don't think I'm able to separate it, like separate again, since from the art like, I feel like it's all tangled. Yeah,
yeah. Yeah, I think I'm learning that too. Like, before, I had a kid, I was always doing creative things. But I didn't know why. And I was diagnosed like seven years ago. So I've had a little time to wrap my head around it. But once I had that diagnosis, I didn't really change anything about myself, it didn't change that much about how I viewed myself and I, because I could mask at such a high level as not a parent. And I had all this flexibility with my time I worked from home. And so I was able to meet my needs. I think all I did when I was diagnosed was like, get rid of some clothes that were uncomfortable. Yeah, but like having a kid, I have so much less bandwidth, because my sensory overstimulation is like on a daily basis. I reached my threshold with that. And so I realized that my creativity wasn't like something fun I like to do, but like an essential part of how I process the world, like how I understand the world, and how I self regulate. And when I don't have time for it. I go to like, a really dark place.
Yes, yes. No, that is, that's where I'm at to I, I definitely. Remember just that. Yeah, that time of like, having having my son and in the period after before my diagnosis, like I just thought the world that just, I don't know how to explain it. Like it was just like, I don't know what this is. But I feel like I'm not quite doing things as I was doing before. That makes sense. Like, it just felt so different. And I think one of the things that stood out to me the most was I was just so suddenly aware of my physical body in ways that I hadn't been before. Like, I, I'm very in my head, like, for me, it's just feels like my head is just like bubbling on top of this body. And then I'm like, oh, yeah, I remember that thing. I bury my head a lot, a lot of the time. So for me, it was, it was just like, Okay, now I've got to like, be in my body. And I was like, what does that even mean? Like, I've always been in it. So it was, I still don't know if I have words for it. But I just felt like I was suddenly very aware. And also to I've really wrestled with, like, I know that I just became more tired. But then at the same time, the masking thing, I think I was always tired. And I think it was just like, well, now you're just more aware of it now, because you have this other person you have to take care of right wake up earlier. But when I reflect on I was like, actually, I think I may have been pretty tired before. And I think I'm just more aware of it now. Like, I can remember years before, you know, having a child where I would just lie still for just hours sometimes, like in darkness, like just waiting for the sun to set and like, I'm just like, I physically just don't feel like I can do things. So I'm like, yeah, it was there. But I think you know, without knowing I was autistic, I just thought, oh, life is overwhelming. Everybody that says everybody just gets tired all the time. Everybody just always feels overwhelmed. I'm just not seeing it because they're not seeing me do this. So yeah, it's a it's a very strange, strange thing. And like, I feel like I'm still finding words. And I feel like the one thing that kind of ties it all together, which is not it's not like a tying it all together. Like it all makes sense. But just tying it all together of like, okay, something's happening here is I've just started to realize that, that that time itself, it's just like, there's no I'm not running out of time to make sense, like, My life before and also dream of a new future because it's like if I sit and try to make sense of all these things, Kids of my life. Up until this point. I think I did that when I first went through the diagnosis process. I was like, okay, alright, what a year do we start it? Let's start with first childhood memory. And I was just like, kind of trying to like, make sense of it all. And I'm like, You know what, there might be some stuff that I don't even realize about my teen years, until 10 years from now. And that's okay. Like, I'm gonna just pace myself through it. So that's been kind of the biggest thing. Because once I start talking about like, oh, boy, like, there was a whole I forgot about all that. I forgot about all that. And that whelming it's a lot. Yes.
I love anytime you do posts are poems about that you have time. Because I think I just always feel this urgency. Like, it's like, once I have the idea, I have to do the thing. And that's one big change with parenthood as well is like, I can't always physically do that thing. And so I'm still working on like, this backlog of ideas that I created when I had a newborn, my kid is four. And I still have like this list in my phone. It's like, these are art ideas that I want to do. And I'm just now they will to, like start implementing some of those things.
Oh, my goodness, I can so relate to that. Yeah, there's just even about 30 minutes before we're talking today. So I've been working on 3d art in the background for like, on year three, now. That out, output is very small, considering the amount of time I've put into it. But it was such like, I was noticing myself, like, when I would try to work at it at different points. Like say, a year ago or two years ago, I would just get so frustrated with myself because I'm like, Oh, this is not enough time. Like, even if I was able to spend like two hours on it. Like 11pm Oh my god, I must stay up. I must do more. It's like, or, you know, this one little I'll explain very specifically what I did. So I was working on this little there's this app called Twin motion is my favorite 3d app. Because it's you don't have to like know, if you've ever played Sims, you can like understand it a little bit. Like it's not, it's not like the most advanced are a lot of answers out there. So all I did in this 30 minutes was play some trees and place a wall and like a table against the wall because I want to go back in there, put my art on the table, and like film it. And I was like, from a productivity standpoint, that was not that much. I didn't get a final product from it. I didn't get it was just like, that was like 30 minutes. That was all I had. And that's okay, I enjoyed it. And I have to like be okay with like, when I closed when I saved the town and I was like table outside and I named the file that. I don't know when I'm gonna open that file again. Like it could be next week or I don't know. And I'm learning how to be more okay with that, like, be more okay with like, the the liminal space and like the gaps, or even what I perceive as gaps because they're gaps within like, all these other little things happen inside the gaps, too. So, yeah, kind of trying to make room for that.
Yeah, yeah, I definitely used to work in these big long chunks of time where I would like I wouldn't even remember to eat unless I set a timer. Like I would basically sudden from my computer. I don't know, a really, like the whole workday and then some Yep. And now it's like, okay, I might have three minutes, or I might have 15. Or if I'm really lucky, my kid might fall asleep in the backseat of the car, and I'm stuck in the driver's seat. I'm like, What can I do with this time that I have no idea how long it will last? But let me enjoy it while it's here.
Yes, I Yes, I definitely have that same thing. I have that same thing because it it just feels like the time and you know, even outside of parenting. I just felt like since 2020 You know, work life has become just so it for me at least it feels just so much more sporadic. Like if I'm doing a collaboration or something, I feel like that timed out. I just feel like there's always so much going on. So I'm finding it harder to find those longer periods of times because I'm like you I can sit there for a long time in this chair. And then I'm just like, Oh, why is my neck suddenly hurting as I stretch it? Like you just like drug yourself in here at 7am and you haven't moved? So that's probably why like, why my hands cramping. It's like, oh, maybe you should watch them or something. So yeah, I definitely have that. And it's been very Yeah, I find myself like having a lot of strong emotions like when I have to stop and take breaks when I know that I could go deeper and I know that I could go further. Like that's, that's really, that's really hard. That's something that I want to not saying that I can. But it's like, I want to solve this, like, more or less trick myself into thinking, like, this doesn't have to be a bad thing. So, um, I think right now what I'm looking for is like, okay, what are the little? I don't even like saying hacks but it's just like what are the like new different things I can introduce or reintroduce that remind myself that it's okay to go in and out of things. Like just last night, I opened, I didn't even notice on my computer, I guess, by default Apple books. It's
just yeah, like the book candle for
called books. Yeah, to do videos on my computer. But my husband uses it. And I was always like, why don't you use? I don't even know if it's the apple books. I just didn't know there was an app on the computer. I and I saw him. And I've actually done something with Apple books. So I probably should have that I do. It was on the phone. And correction. I knew it was on the phone, right iPad, but I don't know, I didn't think about it. It's like this whole entity on the computer. So I opened it on my computer. And why was there a full 350 page novel that I wrote for NaNoWriMo National Novel Writing Month, 10 years ago, completely forgot about it, like, full novel, beginning to end just sitting there. I was like, Who am I like, I haven't even thought about this for 10 years. And immediately, it just made me want to start writing more fiction. And I mean, I've been talking about that more about wanting to do that. But it was, it was such a reminder to me, I was like, hey, Morgan, that was 10 years ago. And that's okay, like, so much change between that and now that you did so many other things like I wasn't making digital art, then I think I tried procreate at that point. But I wasn't even I wasn't even anywhere near doing what I'm doing today. Nowhere near that that wouldn't come for another four years from that point. And it was just such a cool thing to look back and see that that version of me would not have been satisfied with the fact that I had written a novel because that version of me would have been like, well, it's not published anywhere. Well, it's not, you know, it's not me, there's grammatical errors in it, you know, so it's not like edited, like, there's no cover art, like, nobody's asking for a novel for me. And that version of me finish that novel. Like, that's where I probably left off mentally, and emotionally, like, Okay, you finished it, but no one's asking for it. There's nothing you can do with it. And now, this version of me 10 years later is looking at it. And I'm proud of that. And I'm like, who cares? That no one side? I'm actually glad no one wants you to get published, because I thought that I would publish like the characters like drinking a pumpkin spice latte in the first paragraph. So I'm like, I'm, I still love it. I love that. But I'm like, oh, that it worked out. You know, I'm glad that it wasn't. It wasn't. It was a Polish I would I want to change some things, you know, changed a little bit. But at the same time, it's like, it's so cool to look back and see something that I would have thought at that time was not good enough. It was not my best work. I didn't do the best with it. And now I'm proud of it. So now I'm thinking I'm like, well, there's probably stuff today, what in the 10 year version from me now is looking back on the files on my computer today that I don't think are enough. And I was like, Oh my gosh, all your little 3d 3d files that you were working on. They were actually like, there was more to them. Like this was really cool work that you were just randomly getting into, for, you know, 30 minutes at a time. So, yeah,
yeah, we have so much in common. I also have the 10 year gap between, like, I used to do NaNoWriMo in like high school and college, like every year, I loved it. And the last one I did was like 10 years ago, and it was when I felt like I had to have a career. And I wasn't good enough to publish. And so i i It got real mental block and so I couldn't write any more. Obviously, nobody's first draft is publishable. This is what I've learned in the last 10 years by listening to other writers and authors stories. Like oh, because I can see the flaws is actually a good thing. Because I could go in there and fix them if I thought it was perfect. That would be...
So true! That's so good. Yes.
yeah. So yeah, we've got to write But meanwhile, we have been writing books. That's true. So I really cared about this. And I like I self published a book. And I just feel like after doing that, like, I want to go back to fiction and like, maybe I'll send it to a publisher, maybe I'll publish it myself. And I don't see those things as like, one being success, and one being a failure the way I did 10 years ago, like it's really come a long way
we have, and we have to give ourselves credit for that. I just love that. I love that. We're just before we knew each other, we're just like, in our own little NaNoWriMo world. I used to love it. I was so I remember specifically getting really into it, because I felt like I was always around so many athletic people. And they would like run marathons and stuff. And I was like, This is my version of a marathon. Like I was so proud of myself. But um, yes, yes. It's interesting, because even though I, you know, stopped writing fiction, like that was, I guess I looking at it on Apple books on my computer. I was like, I guess I just stopped there. It looks like I converted it to ebook file. And then I was like, oh, okay, there you go. That's it. You wrote a novel. And so after that point, I, I felt like I had to, like, I was like, if I want to, so the creative has got to have like, a business, you know, it's got to be, and at the time, I have a sister who's involved in music as well. And she was already starting to she started out on YouTube. But she was getting involved with like, songwriting and like, all these different things. So I was like, oh, songwriting, that sounds like a fun job. Like, let me, let me try that. So that became my ambition. Never Yeah, that never became a full time job. But I did, I did get some really cool opportunities. And I got to do a lot of music stuff, which I'm very grateful for. But even that I had to start figuring out how to supplement. So essentially, I just went on this several year journey of like, always having a bunch of jobs and wants, that's, that's honestly, the easiest way to explain, like, at any given time, I may have been a wedding photographer and a T shirt, really. We might have to stuff like a whole
it seems marketable you know?
we might exactly we might have like a whole spin off something where we just go through all the things that we did, because there's so many things you end up doing where you're just like, yeah, no, I have to do something to survive
I know I'm good at that. Like it's the autism is the connect between? Why can't I? Why can't people tell me I'm good at this. I know, I'm good at this. But why can't I get the marketing piece connected? So that it can become, like a livelihood?
Yes,
Other people just do it.
Exactly. I'm,
I've spent 10 years taking marketing classes and business classes, but they're for neurotypicals. And they, they just don't work for me. And it's only after like, throwing that stuff out the door and just trying to be more myself, then I attract people who are more like me, and like we get each other and like it finally started to slowly grow. But as long as I was trying to fit myself in the neurotypical box, it was never going to work.
Exactly, yes. And I can 100% agree with that. That was That is my experience. I tried to do networking events, like I tried to, like, put myself out there, you know, make business cards, just do tons of free work for all kinds of things in like, I was trying to like get internships, anywhere, trying everything, everything. And it's so hard to explain because and I'm not saying this is true for all neurodivergent people, but for me, it's specifically for me specifically, I am not a entrepreneurial minded person. Like growing up. We were kids like lemonade stand. I was a kid who just wanted to make a cool sign. And make sure the lemonade tastes good. But I didn't want to sell it. I'm like, why can't we just make it and let people just let us know how we think. I never enjoyed that part. Like that was always my least favorite part was once it became the business part. So for me I was it was a huge uphill battle because it's like, Well, I live in a society where I mean, if you don't figure that out, like unfortunately, you don't have health care. You don't have just basic needs to survive. And one thing that I found to be very hard to explain even from my books to everything that I've made, is how much of it came from a place of necessity. And a lot of people don't understand that because so much art is marketed to us as like, oh, this person always had this talent and then became the star. When really so many of us have stories of like, No, I had to do it. Like I didn't have another job. So I was just trying to scramble and put the pieces together. And at any given point, there were times where I would be like playing shows with my sister on on like a stage somewhere in Wisconsin. And after, after the show, I'm logging on to my anonymous fiverr.com account where I'm designing logos for people just doing anything that I can just get a little bit to survive. And by the time I got around to like, 2016 2017, I was just so burned out by that, honestly, like, I just yeah, having to do so many little things. And also, it has been somewhat, it has been somewhat healing, if I dare say, to see a lot of I've been reading about gig economy and how a lot of millennials and people who were workers in the in the past decade, I've had to deal with the struggle. So that's been helpful. Okay, so I wasn't the only one. Like, there wasn't really notthere was a lot of us. But at the same time, you know, when you think about how social media is, like, you don't see all of that you don't you don't hear that you just hear someone saying like, Oh, I'm a wedding photographer. Oh, um, yeah, graphic designer, or whatever. You're just like, well, they have it figured out and I don't. And that was sort of how I felt for a very, very long time. And then I think I just thought, Why No, I finally burned out. Because, for me, the ultimate burnout was like, being tired and broke. Like, that's where I was, I was like, I had learned how to do one of those for sustained, you know, a lot of tired a little broke a lot of broke, but I got the energy. But I was like, no energy, no money and residue, and my husband working in construction. We're living in a one bedroom apartment, like, there's just only so much we could do. And I was like, I gotta do something. And I just felt I felt horrible. Like, I felt like I have I'm, I feel that I'm very privileged that I have a very supportive family. And I think that makes a huge difference. But even then, I felt like I just let everybody down. Like, I felt like anybody would ever hired me for anything or helped me with anything. I felt like I was just embarrassing. Like, I felt like, I was like, This is so embarrassing, that I'm just struggling all the time. And I just, I felt like quitting. Like, I just kind of crawled up and was just like, I don't even know what to do. I felt like, I can't survive. That's what it was. I felt like I couldn't survive. And, you know, now now I know, things were autistic burnout. You know, back then I didn't know anything about that. I, I just felt it's hard to explain, but it's like, I felt like afraid that I'm like, What if I can't survive, like, um, like, I have a spouse who works in construction, I hope he doesn't get injured. But what if he got injured, then, you know, he can't go to work, then what happens? And that was just terrifying. I also had a lot of health issues at that time, like physical health issues and didn't have health care. So that was very scary. So it was just a lot of survival, a lot of survival related things. So just like how are we going to survive? How are we gonna survive? Like, it wasn't? How am I going to thrive? How am I going to be somebody? How am I going to be liberal, leave a legacy I hadn't gotten to, like, that wasn't even, it was just like, I'm just trying to figure out like, what does it take to just get like 60 days of not worrying all the time, 30 days, three weeks, without worrying all the time. And so I wrote a poem about it, I opened my journal, and it was just essentially wrote a poem that was letting all that out of this. And it starts with when you start to feel the things should have been better this year. Remember the mountains and valleys that brought you here? And that was just me trying to believe that okay, maybe there's another side of this, I have no idea what it looks like. It's on the heels of tons of disappointment, and, and this feeling of fail failure, this fear that I don't even know how I'm gonna survive. And I uploaded it on Pinterest. And then that was in November 2016. And then in January of 2017, I'm on Instagram. And there's some people that I knew DMing me and they were like, hey, somebody's like sharing your poem. Like a poem has like your name on it. Like I wasn't like sharing poetry at the side. I don't remember who it was. But it was like people that I knew. And it was like, a reality TV star had shared it from the thing from Pinterest, and then there was like, a good NFL player that shared it. And I was like, Hold on. Wait a minute. I don't know what happened here. I don't even know how they got I got it like on my house on Instagram. I was like, I don't even posted on Instagram. So I went back and looked at Pinterest. And it had been repin over 100,000 times. And I was like, Oh, okay. So I don't know when that happened. And the way Pinterest works like, it doesn't really, at least I've tried to find it. Like, where it took off how I have no idea. But that ended up being like the impetus for the work I do today. It was writing that poem. And to be honest, you know, I would love to say, when that happened, I was just like, Oh, I'm a poet, I'm going to be a poet. But I was so just discouraged and anxious. And, you know, artistically burnt out and didn't know that then, but just all burnt out and so exhausted, just physically strained all the time. And emotionally, that I just looked at it, like, okay, that happened. But that was probably a mistake. And it's probably not going to happen again. But the thing that really broke me out of it was I started to get DMS from people who read the poem. And I was in the thing that got me the most was the DMS from, like, these young people who are like 10 years younger than me saying that this poem really spoke to me, here's what I went through this past year. And that just like, completely broke me, because the things that they were DMing me were far more intense than what I had been through. And I was just like, wow, this is not about me, like, whatever happened with that poem. It, it transcended and went far, and spread all around the world beyond me in ways that I can't even comprehend. But in a way, and I've never really explained it this way, but in a way, like, it kind of felt like it kind of felt like an embrace, in a way, because it's like, you put something out there and you don't know who's gonna find it or connect with it. But then like, when someone kind of like, they kind of like, it's kind of like science, bringing it back to you. Like, I found it out there in the wild. And I just want to let you know, like, This connects to me, and they're like, and it felt like, it felt like, oh, wow, this is like a hug. Like, it's like, oh, we're all dealing with us, like we're all really like last year was really, really tough. And I was like, Okay, I don't know what to do with this other than just keep talking to these people. And that was how my first book came about all along, you were building our first poetry and art book, because I started to just write these poems that were really just responding to people who were talking to me. Because I didn't from like a merit standpoint, from like, a had nothing to go off of in terms of like, this is a good poem, like, there was no, you know, I had nothing to go off of. So I was like, Alright, I can do that I can at least talk to the people that are here. And then the doodles kind of came along with that I started like doodling a little bit with just I've always loved drawing. But again, that's another thing with, you know, there's people who are very, very technically good at art. And this kind of sidebar with, you know, being autistic. I've seen a lot of other autistic people talk about that pressure of like, people think that, oh, the autistic stereotype of like, a savant, and everyone has to be really good at certain things. And that can be very harmful because I wasn't good at art, quote, unquote, in the technical sense, as a kid, I, I got put in art classes, and I did not survive, because I was not, I was not able to technically follow, you know, the shading of the apple and all of that they were doing in that way. I've since learned more now on my own terms, but back then, there was nothing about what I was making as a kid that was like, Oh, she's gonna be you know, this, this textbook artists so I was just like doing little doodles because I was like, oh, you know, this is kind of makes the poem hopeful. And just thinking about those people who are DMing me. And honestly, I feel like all of my books since then have have been some version of that some version of like, this, this dialogue, this between people who I actually talk to, and and a dialogue between with stories, stories that are in my head, sometimes I end up writing them and sometimes it's just a hope that I hope to see for the world. So yeah, because it's feels like one really long conversation just happening through lots of different media, through colors and pubs. And yeah, Yeah, that's kind of how it
I love that. I love um, I think, too, you know, I'll just speak for myself. When I, when I meet someone new, in a normal social context, I always struggle to, like, have that connect. But like with my art, I can just make something and it can exist. And then the connection, like it's like a deeper connection and it's more intimate. And it's so much easier somehow to like, make a thing. And then, like, the moment that people connect to it, it's like, okay, I'm not alone in feeling this way. But I can't just like meet someone for coffee. And, like, casually mentioned this thing. Like, I have to, like, process it and visualize it and like presented and I feel like yeah, that's where creativity is like this tool of communication for us as well.
Yes, absolutely. And I was doing that all along. And I didn't know, and what I found to be like, one of all the struggles, what I found to be one of the strengths, of you know, being autistic is that I think that that can all people can benefit from that, like all people can benefit from, there isn't just one way of communicating, you know, like, how many things could be solved in the world by people just realizing, hey, the way you're going about trying to solve that problem? Well, that person is a visual learner, like they need they need it, or they need to see touch, you know, it's quite so you just talking at them? It's not getting across, even if you're, if you're saying something like, you have to turn the thing on the peanut butter, the right way to screw it, you know, if you're not showing them, they may not hear you. Like I remember this one time, but I got like, it was it was at an airport. And what didn't happen to me. But I just I like my body's like, had a visceral reaction to it. There was a young man who was walking in the wrong direction. And the I guess the security guard TSA person yelled at him. And they were like, how could you not see that sign? And he was like, oh, sorry, sorry, he went the other way. And I think I was more bothered by than he was. But I was like, maybe he didn't see the sign. Like, first of all, you know, disabilities. And second, just because a sign is posted, sometimes people just by not hearing something or not seeing something clearly marked, they might be missing it. So that's something that I've just been thinking a lot about, you know, how I've ended up creating this whole thing where I really feel like I'm communicating through art, it's, it's like, I think this has application beyond just, you know, making pretty things like I think it can really speak to, there's a lot of different ways that we're all communicating. And there's a lot being missed. When we all assume that we all communicate the exact same way.
What if art class in school was about communicating and not about shading the apple with the perfect technique?
Yeah. Yeah, you know, exactly. Like asking every student draw anger, draw joy, and you can have an entire class discussion just on that. Because every kid's gonna, even if even if every kid went for the color red for anger. Let's say everybody did that. Let's say everyone did went for red, the way that they held the pencil, the way that they the tension between the pen and the page, and the people who carved through the paper, the people who felt the need to fill the page, like you can have an entire conversation that you may never be able to get to an English language without the aid without that additional information. So yeah, that's something I really meant thinking about. So I went back to school, and we've talked about that, which by the way, like, major shout out to you because you told me about all the the Oh, yeah. And that whole experience. That was so cool. So yeah, I've been digging into a whole lot more about like, what is art? What does it mean? What does it mean to be artistic artists?
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, tell us about that. Yeah, like, deciding to go back to school and what you're studying and like, let's get let's dive into that.
Yes, for me going back to school is without sounding dramatic, but I really do think it is systematic. I really think going back to school as a first it might be the first thing that I really did for myself. That was just like, you need to do this for you. And it it didn't start off with a whole sidebar list of okay, but here's all the other things that you have to consider it became that I because going to school has a lot with it. And now I'm seeing how this degree It can help with a lot of different things I want to do. But it started off from a place of me saying that, now that I have this information about myself, which has big information that I'm autistic, that I have ADHD, and I have sensory processing disorder, I'm going I, I'm going to need to be filled up, I'm going to, if I'm going to be the parents I need to be if I'm going to be the spouse, be the friend be the sister, community member family member, if I'm going to be need to be me and the best and the best version of myself that I can be, I need, I can't do it on empty. And I've been feeling like the gas tanks hovering around empty for a little while. I was like I need somewhere where I can go. And I'm not going to feel embarrassed about my interest. I'm not going to feel like I have to keep masking my interest. That's something I will talk more about. Because I'm like, Yes, we should. I feel like I have to mask my interests. My special interests are a part of me in the same way that someone might be like, Oh, I like to spend my evenings, you know, hanging out with friends, you know, on the back porch with a cup of tea, like whatever that version. You know, that's that's how I feel about my interest. But my interest in that being things that if you look at me, they seem like just random hobbies that I have. I'm like, No, you don't understand. Like, I literally survived. I did study abroad when I was in college. And I was like, I socially I survived by realizing that I was in the same town that Tolkien was in, when he came over the whole concept for Middle Earth. And I mapped out my experience to what Tolkien created. I'm like, This is not a sidebar hobby. This is like, Oh my God, this was like, like the air I was breathing to be able to make it through that experience. So all that to say, I was like, I need a place where I can go to just kind of get lost in that. And it's like, that's not it's like the things I'm studying in school. I'm like, all of this, I don't even know, I can't tell everyone like how all of this is gonna connect to everything. But I know, it's, it's informing me. And it's, it's like healing that inner child, that inner teenager, that inner college student, that inner 20 Something version of myself that felt like I just had to keep hiding parts of myself, like hiding the fiction. Like, even by the time I got to the novel that I ended up finished finishing, I had worked my way into out of fantasy and into realistic fiction. Because I was like, well, that's probably going to be more accepted if I if I write this way. So yeah, it's I feel like in a lot of ways, going back to school has been like my version of just trying to unmask a little bit and trying to nurture like, those things that that really speak to me. And it's, it's a, it's a part of surviving. You know, it's, it's, I think most people would agree that mental health, whether you're neurodivergent or not, is important. And if Mental Health's not in a great place, and that's just gonna affect a lot of things. And I'm like, Yeah, this is good for my mental health right now I'm going to solve the, the stress of life, like I'm really, really enjoying, like, watching random video art installations, to write a paper about, like, it's, I'm enjoying that. And that is bringing me a lot of life. So yeah, that's where it sounds like,
you're in a really good program. Because I think, you know, with, with academia, it's kind of like, the roll of the dice or, I mean, you know, where you end up not everywhere. It's like that, but I'm glad that that is been your experience.
And I knew I need to go online because I knew that I need to go online somewhere that was going to be more self directed. And I think some people mainly want the opposite. And, again, we all learn communicate differently. Some people may need more face to face, or they may need more hands on. I was like, I just need to go somewhere wracking to nerd out and like somebody says it's okay. Yeah. So yeah, you're right, though it does make a difference. Because I one thing I forgot to say is I actually tried to go to an MFA program right out of my undergrad, and that did not work out for me, because of the way that the program was structured. I see how it could work for others. But it was very like hands on face to face. And that wore me out because I was having to worry so much about the socialization aspect of it that I didn't even really get to work on the craft. So, yeah, I think there's yeah, there's a lot to it.
I want to talk about fantasy too, because you kind of threw that in there the Tolkien thing. I feel like, you know, we've kind of come up through this thing. We're trying to be professionals. We're like doing the wedding photography, trying to find what's, and I feel like somewhere along the way, like stripped, I like cut off my limbs and threw them in the back of the wagon and was like, this part is not on brand for me. And so like, you know, maybe I would try to make a secondary account where I could do that thing. But it was this part of me, like my artist, fine artists are not fantasy nerds. That's ridiculous. Anyway. So it's just in this past year that I've started doing that same healing as well. And being like, actually, this is a really big part of me. And I can't actually be myself as an artist, like, I'm a human, I'm not a brand. These are part of my humanity. Like, it might seem silly to you. It's like really serious to me. Like it's yeah, these were my friends when I didn't have friends. And they're really important to me.
That's exactly how I felt about all of the Tolkien's universe, everything he created. Because I still remember very clearly. So growing up, we used to get all our books from a thrift store. So a lot of the books that even people were reading my age I didn't have access to because my books came from last chance thrift store on Mondays half price off day. So the books that were available, there were Sweet Valley High baby sitters club, Lord of the Rings, Chronicles of Narnia, and they were all already read that was like, that was most of my introduction to reading. And that was like, I was born 1990. So I felt like it was like, it was like, whatever, like gen x kids were bookstores getting sent to the thrift store. Those are the ones that I ended up with. So yeah, I ended up
yes, there's something generational. I don't know if it's an autism thing or social class thing. But I feel like I relate so much more to the Gen X on so many things. And yeah, older sister, I had all these hand me downs. And so like I experienced the 80s during the 90s. And the 90s. swept past.
Same, same, same, same. I don't even know what to say because I'm like, exact same experience. Wow. Like me and my sister were like, super into Cabbage Patch dolls like, like 80s kids were. So yes, it was. Oh, yeah. So I remember getting like some 80s edition of Fellowship of the Ring. And I was so surprised. It was my first time seeing maps in a book. And I was like, hold on, this place doesn't exist, but there's a map for it. So I became obsessed with like, fantasy worlds. Like that was all everything was a portal like everything. So obviously Chronicles Narnia. So another famous example, the wardrobe and everything. So that was just like, Yeah, and I'm still in that I felt like, I'm still in that phase of just like, everything is an entrance into something else. And
they have like all these magic little doors like because it's such an old country. That I always felt like there was some little magic land, like through a little gate or a little door. Little cabinet or cupboard or something.
Yes, yes. That was, Oh, my goodness, I always I was convinced that like our house had like a secret passageway in it somewhere. I was like, we just haven't found it. I was like, it's got to be it didn't make any sense for there to be one. But we didn't have a basement like, No, I'm like, no, no, there's got there's a secret passage in here. So yeah, I was very into that. And yeah, by the time I got to my early 20s And out of college. I really think the leave off point was I took an inky Inklings class in college and it was all about CS Lewis and Tolkien and, and their whole crew. And I felt like that was like my goodbye, in a way. It's like sounds that sounds like I was like, Well, that was fun. Like, I enjoy doing that. But now I've got to figure out what's the grownup version of this. You know, what's the, what's the grownup version of being creative being an artist? So yeah, it was it was a wild ride of just like you said, like feeling like I had to take off parts of myself. And I and I appreciate you for saying it that way. Because I think sometimes even the word masking doesn't even quite fully, fully explain what it feels like because it's It's like, sometimes it doesn't even feel like you're covering up, it feels like you're just like actually leaving that part of yourself behind. And then it's a matter of like, retrieving it and saying, Yeah, I don't know what I'm gonna do with you yet, but I'm bringing you back like we're gonna
I remember this part of me. And it's funny, like,
I'm having a lot of those moments,
it bubbles up to like you try and you try. It's the limb that you cut off and it grows back like your work is there's a really strong theme of maps. In your work.
It is, it is so wild. Okay, from an aesthetic. I've never I've never taught it. I'm so glad you brought that up. Because from an aesthetic standpoint, there is so much world building and fantasy in my artwork and urban fantasy in my artwork that it was I was like, it's, it's always good. I kept bringing it back all this time. So I just find that so cool, because I was like, I wasn't even conscious of it. But now I can even look at things I was making, like two years ago. And I'm like, No, I remember specifically, wanting those to look like tree roots going up towards the sky, and neon lights being wrapped around them. I'm like, nobody may see that unless I explain it that way. And I was like, No, that's, I was thinking that way the whole time. So yeah, it's, it's been very exciting to go back, go back and look at that. And, you know, I also just, I also think, like being a parent is be is motivating of that too. Because I'm like, I want my child to like, grow up and have as little of that as possible. Like, as little of like, Okay, it's time to grow up. Now. It's like, life is serious enough. Like, there's enough very serious things to worry about. So we have to be thinking about, like, our mental health, our physical health and, and the things that bring us joy, and keep us alive and keep us wanting to to create change and find hope. So it's like, you can't cut that stuff off. Like, that's the good stuff. You need to bring that stuff forth.
And who says the change can't come from these fantasy stories that we love. Like, there's a lot of good themes in there. You need to get people out of their grown up jobs and reading fantasy books. And exactly, maybe we would be in a better world.
Exactly. It's like, yeah, why it's like, making up languages. I like picking my battles. Just like, there's, it's like, we could make up new words. Yeah. But it's like, we can add some more. Like, why not like what is stopping us? You know, that's not just for the young kids to do on tick tock like, No, we can we can make up stuff. We can come up with new ideas. Why not? Let's
go where do we think words came from? You know, some of these people have not studied Shakespeare?
Mm hmm. Exactly. So yeah, it's just like, it's, it's not set in stone. We're not writing on stone anymore. We're actually writing on white screens where there's plenty of room in the back space. Right? Yeah, exactly. It's not like one future one chisel in stone that we're all passing around, like, Okay, we got to decide on what are our 100 words are? Like, no, we can let's make some stuff up. And I've even been realizing that allowing myself to get back into that more. It's like, it does inform reality, because it's like, if you're so so focused on. Okay, what's practical was practical was practical. Sometimes you can still miss stuff, like you could still miss possibilities, because you only have what's in front of you. So if you just like, shoot to the moon real quick. And just say like, okay, let's just forget all that. And just imagine anything or, you know, let's just intentionally enter into fiction, intentionally come up with scenarios and then bring that back. So, yeah, I'm really interested in seeing where that takes me. I've been I've been writing down some fiction ideas, just for fun. I'm like, I don't I don't know. You know, what's gonna happen with them, but I'm enjoying the process of imagination. I'm enjoying keeping that in front of me. And I'm like, that's definitely something that I want to pass on and, and share with others because it's, it makes a difference. So, yeah,
yeah. In 2020 I did a reread of a bunch of my like, really old books like The Chronicles of Prydain and the Tamara Pierce books with like the Alana and Lady count the lady Knight books and all those. And then I don't know if you've ever read The Wheel of Time. I have that was like my equivalent how you feel about Tolkien. I like I love The Hobbit. I got spoiled ON THE LORD OF THE rings in a children's biography. I'm still I'm still mad about this. So like it was a middle grade, you know, this little cheap little, I know exactly what you're talking about where the font is, like huge. Yep, the reading level is so much lower than the Lord of the Rings, like really low. So I felt really safe to read this bio. Yeah, and it was Tolkien. But then it says, what happens at the very end of the very third book? Why would mountains and I was so mad because at the time, like, I loved the Hobbit. I love the Fellowship of the Ring. Yeah, the two towers is a bit of a slog, like, there's a lot of walking and walking. And so I'm reading this book, and it's walking and walking and walking. And suddenly I find out what happens at the end. I'm like, forget it. So actually, it's like, my secret shame is that I've never finished the Lord of the Rings. I'd love to move. Oh, no, that's why I say I'll go back and read it. But like, what were they thinking?
They were not. They were like, Oh, these kids aren't gonna read it, we'll just tell them what happened.
We don't know if somebody definitely didn't think about that. So anyway, I, I did start with Tolkien. And then I went to The Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan, and it's like a TV show right now. Um, it's, it's long and chunky. And really, really, I love the world building and that, and, and maps, so many maps. If you read it, or watch the show, or anything I have to know. Because that those are the books that like, I read in my teenage years. And I feel like they're like etched into my bones. And the author actually passed away. And he was like, before he finished. And so he like on, like, basically, his deathbed, as he had this disease, was telling his wife, who's his editor and his, like, his assistant, like, all these details of the story, so someone could pick up the pieces and finish it. And that's Brandon Sanderson. Finished. Yeah, so we'll have time.
Wow. That's cool. Yeah, I've been wanting to get into every I'm not. I haven't read anything of his. So that's gonna be interesting. All right.
Great place to start. Yeah, um, I mean, it's long, ready for a commitment because it's like 14 books. They're, like, 1000 pages apiece for the most part, but it's so immersive.
And by the time I'm really intrigued,
The Wheel of Time. So anyway, I lost touch with the fandom like that was like I didn't, I didn't I literally did not have friends. My age in high school. Like I was homeschooled. So I didn't even have like acquaintances kind of maybe pretend.
Those same?
Yeah. Um, so anyway, these characters were my friends. And I had a sister too. Well, I have two but one was like 14 years older than me. So she was like a second mom. Yeah. So anyway, these books were like, really important to me. And then like, obviously, the author died. And I kind of like, had to put it aside, but like in high school, I logged on to the fan sites every morning. And like, those were, that was the place I fit in, was like, geeking out about these books. But also, we talked about other things. Yeah. And so I disconnected from that community. And then like, Brandon came in, he finished the books, but I didn't ever really plug in because the site that I used to go to didn't exist anymore. And when it became a TV show, which I'd always thought, like, there's no way they can make it a TV show, because of course, in the 90s, you couldn't even imagine what's happened with TV. Like you couldn't even envision the stuff they make now. I was like, it's way too complex. Nobody could ever do it. So when they announced it, I was kind of like, I don't want to get too excited about it, because it's probably bad. Yeah, so important to me, like, I don't want it to be bad. And it was actually really good. Um, I can't tell you why. But there's a really helpful framing in the story for this is a slightly different version. So like, it helped me to be like, Okay, this isn't my Wheel of Time, but it is a Wheel of Time. And there are some similarities there. So, with the show came a resurgence in the community, and The Wheel of Time fandom, and I started watching this YouTube channel called the dusty wheel. And like, every Wednesday, they would come on, they would talk about deep dives in the books, talk about the show, and I would literally get physical like, warm, fuzzy feelings like these are my people like how did I forget that this is where I belong. Meanwhile, like, I have been really struggling to like connect with the local community here like I feel You'll have to work so hard to make friends and so hard to connecting these neurotypical settings. And like, so anyway, that was like in 2020, I had reread The Wheel of Time. And then I watched the show. And I've reconnected, I kind of just watched this fandom for like the last two or three years. And like, I finally like, made an account and started like just lurking and then a little bit posting. And last month, like you just said, your grad program is the first thing you've done for yourself. I went to Wheel of Time convention, I like actually won the ticket, or I wouldn't have done it was and it was not a marketing. It was from a fan. I'm watching this live show. And they usually give away a mug. And they I thought I was entering to win a mug. And it was a ticket to this Wheel of Time convention in Ohio. Oh, by the fans, for the fans. This community is so like inclusive and diverse. And like, so I went there thinking, while I haven't traveled since before COVID, I think I'm gonna this is going to be exhausting. And actually, like, I think that's the first time I've not masked like that I could show up as my whole self without leaving my leg in the hotel room. And like, it was amazing. Like I can't, I came home. And when my husband asked me how it was I just cried like, and so I made this, I made like a video to tell the community how important it was, and thank them. And it felt like like ripping my heart out of my chest and just holding it up for everyone to see. Because I just started crying like how important it was how much belonging like I've never felt like I belonged in a group of people like that it could like, go up to anyone and they were like a friend I hadn't met yet. And this was something that I told myself I didn't have time for. And that wasn't important. And so I'm like, it's, it sounds ridiculous. But like it, it changed my life. Like I've come back and I'm like, Okay, I've got to make time. These are my people. Sure. It's kind of about The Wheel of Time. It's kind of not, it's, it's like finding your people. And like, I've got to make time to show up for the, for the live streams, and like just hanging out with people. And like, I think I'm gonna start a Wheel of Time podcast, and like, I'm cutting off some of the stuff that I was doing. That was marketing, my art and my own writing. Forget that. Like, I'm just gonna do what I love to do.
I like, I'm getting, so emotional just hearing this. I'm so happy for you. Because I'm like, as you're saying that I'm like, first of all, you deserve that. Like, you deserve that so much. And like you were meant to win that ticket. And I have so glad you did because like you said, you wouldn't have gone you would have gone like, and, and wow, it's I had it on a smaller scale. And what you just said, that gives me something to look forward to because I'm I'm starting to gear up that way with fiction again. I'm like, I forgot how much I love books. And I got to go to essence Fest in July, which is like, essence is a black lifestyle magazine. And they put on they have all the different events within the event. And they did like an essence author. So it was like, it was like black authors, like they were bringing in. And for some reason, somebody said, oh, let's bring Oregon in. And I was like, Okay. Um, I mean, I was only in that little booth for like, maybe two or three hours. My most unmasked self in that black authors event. And I got to talk with people who just love books. And in that setting, most of us hadn't even read the same books. We were just like, oh my god, like exchanging recommendations. And it was just like, we were all on the same page, like talking rapidfire like, and it was just, I was like, This is what I been needing. And if I had not been asked to come, I don't, I wouldn't have known to go. So I'm so glad that I had that chance because it was just enough of an inkling to know like, yeah, keep pulling on that, like, keep pulling on that thread. Like it's not and I'm also doing the same thing that you said about like taking some of that off taking some of the other things off. And I mean, I'm not saying that I'm never I'm still writing nonfiction. But even just the way that I I approach it now is totally different. And even the things that I'm just being inspired by and the things that I'm following and subscribing to like I used to listen to a world building podcast, and I used to that just stopped because I was like I guess I elemental marketing podcast, I'm like, No, I've got back to my world building podcast, podcast so much, I'm gonna sit down for Patreon. I'm going all in so much. I don't I do marketing when I have to, but I don't love marketing so much. Like I love world building, I can just, I can talk about it for hours. So I'm just learning how to do more of that. And, and it's like, and it's making me realize it's like, you know, maybe maybe that's like how I'm growing is like, I'm, I'm realizing that it's better to spend time on like, the things that actually help energize me and give me the courage and make me feel like I belong. And then that's what's going to equip me for the other stuff. Instead of like immersing myself all the time. And the other stuff, where I don't feel like I'm naturally fitting in or I don't feel like I'm actually belong, and I have to mask and over mask. So spending time on that stuff. And it's, it feels risky. But you know, like you just said that was such a thank you for sharing that. Like that gave me so much hope. Oh, I'm just like, Okay, I feel like I'm on the right page. This is a great way to go
we've got to do it. Um, I just realized we've been talking for an hour. So I don't know, how are you good on time?
Yeah, I am, I hadn't even looked at the time.
We could go a little bit longer, but like, it just goes really fast. It could because it's so easy, which is not how I normally find things. So I appreciate you making time for this today. And, um, let's see, I feel like there were like, there were 100 different conversations and all of that, that we could follow. But I think that thing for like, what you just were talking about was like monitoring energy levels. And I think that's the one of the big changes for me as well is that I thought to like one of the things I thought is that video itself was a big energy drain for me. And what I've realized it's video when I'm masking that's extra draining. Because I'm I made this video for The Wheel of Time fandom and I sat at your and I cried my eyeballs out. But I didn't feel like I was zapped of social energy. Because I was just talking to people that I could be myself with. And so like I know, there's layers to there's like some of it is me just like telling myself I have and there's like a lot of perfectionism tied up in that for me like, I have to present this in a certain way to be professional and like, Yeah, I'm putting way too much pressure on like, what clothes I'm wearing and how I sit and like I left the air conditioner on today, because otherwise I'll be miserable out here. But there was a time I would have turned that off because it would have ruined the sound quality.
Yes, I am one hundred percent with you on that I've realized that too. For instance, one thing I've observed is like, you know, when it comes to masking my face where I am, at least consciously aware that I'm masking the least, I will get asked, I will get asked what's wrong, what's wrong. So I've learned to, to just hide it so much and like, force a smile, and I know exactly where to put my eyebrows. And exactly where the crease in my mouth goes, it starts to become more natural, where I'm probably going to be asked in five minutes or 30 seconds, what's wrong and everything. Okay? So you know, and to me, I'm like, Yeah, even if the person is well, meaning it's still just a lot of pressure on on my physical body. So yeah, that's a really good point. And that's actually why I've been doing less video because I realized that the way that the energy that it takes to put on the face and were the face and do that it's I can be putting that energy into other things that yeah, that it's just like yeah, I'm not gonna have time for for the video part of it. I hope doesn't come across in the wrong way. Cuz I know lots of people love video and a great video and I watched lots of videos, I have nothing against video, or you know, anything that's film but one thing I am starting to be very mindful of, is that film and video. It's not ancient. So it's like it actually isn't been around for hundreds and hundreds of years. So I'm like maybe in some ways, that is you know, there is like an adapting that that humans have learned to do. To even be on video and be on video on a regular basis. Yeah. And if those can do it, that's great. And if they're able to present and you know, come up with a character and and like my sister is one of those people like you it's Lights, Camera Action, she's got like 12 characters ready to go. And there's plenty of neurodivergent people who can do that. But it's like, regardless, I think of your neurodivergence if you're feeling like, I don't feel like I can't, I can't make myself do the camera thing like everyone else is like, that's not. That doesn't mean you're doing it wrong. Like there's lots of other ways to connect with people that don't have to involve that. And I think that's even more important if you're masking and you're feeling it wearing you down. So yeah, I'm 100% on that. I'm just like, I get around to the video thing when I get around to it. So
yeah, like what is worth the energy drain and what isn't?
Yes, absolutely. Absolutely.
Well, I could talk to you for hours, but my husband has to go back to work. So I feel like we've just been having a chat. But as this is a podcast, would you like to plug something, tell people where to find you all that good stuff?
Yes, yes. So I am Morgan Harper Nichols on Instagram. You can also find me on substack. Then spending more time there. And I also have an app called storyteller. And it's on Android and Apple, where I share my art in poetry, all that good stuff. So yes, that's speed, Morgan Harper Nichols. And your books? Oh, yes. And yes. And we're gonna I feel like Morgan Harper nichols.com. I know my name is kind of long, but Morgan Harper nichols.com. I have links to the books and the app and all that stuff that I just mentioned. So yeah, that's where you can find me.
Thanks for listening to neurodivergent space time, I would love to hear from you. So if you want to jump in the conversation over at substack. I'd love to hear what you resonated with. If you would like to support the podcast, the best way is to share with a friend. And the second best way is to pledge on substack, which helps me to offer transcription services, and to fund the creation of neurodiversity affirming resources, some of which you can find linked down in show notes below. And if you'd like to connect on Instagram, you can find me at @sarahdshotts. Until next time,
