Ep 13: Mastering the Art of Unlearning: Do we just follow the expected path along the lifecourse or is there space for pushing boundaries and exploring new possibilities?
2:29PM Jun 23, +0000
Speakers:
Shelli Ann Garland
Victoria Procunier
Keywords:
unlearning
people
learning
understand
live
grades
challenging
realised
education
world
talk
bit
masks
fear
feel
situation
terms
friends
differently
society
Hello, and welcome to a dash of salt. I'm Dr. Shelli Ann and I'm so glad you're here. Whether you stumbled upon this podcast by accident, or you're here because the subject drew you in welcome. Salt is an acronym for society and learning today. This podcast was created as an outlet for inviting fresh discussions on sociology and learning theories that impact your world. Each episode includes a wide range of themes that focus on society in everyday learning, whether formal or informal. So let's get stuck in shall we.
Welcome to a dash of salt. Today I'm joined by Victoria Procunier. She's a friend of mine who lives in Canada. I'm delighted to have you on the podcast today to speak with you about unlearning and challenging how you think
Hey, it's so great to be on thanks for having me.
Victoria, can you tell us a little bit about yourself your education and your professional background?
Sure. I'm currently the senior vice president for sales and client success at a content marketing agency here in Toronto called fifth story. My education I graduated from a post grad programme for Corporate Communications at Seneca College prior to that, I completed two degrees at Queen's University, in Canadian Studies in politics, as well as in English Literature.
and Victoria, wanted to talk about the subject of unlearning. And unlearning is learning to think behave or perceive things differently, when there are already beliefs or behaviours or assumptions that have been learned over time. And these these behaviours get in the way of more forward thinking or more advanced thinking. So this is going to be our conversation together. And the first question that I have for you, Victoria is why does this idea of unlearning interest you?
Because I like to challenge assumptions. And when I was saying with this, this topic, and what other people might, like, say to this wide interest me also is, I like to ask a lot of questions. I think in my job, I actually came back to this job after I left, I left Canada and went to Ireland and then came back and the owner, I remember, she tells me she told me one of my greater assets was my ability to ask good questions. And so I think, for me, it's always under trying to understand why something is. And I would say that one of the pivotal moments for me for probably putting me on this path was in university, it was a second year political science, sort of a core course. And it was just a discussion as to how people value terms like democracy, big terms like that differently. And the fact that you and I shall, we could talk about the very same thing, and think different things about it like value and differently. And that really started to hit home to me, when, after my full education, which is really appreciated hearing about this course that I could do afterwards. In college, I actually did a course on negotiation. And again, sort of another extension of how people value things differently. And again, unlearning or relearning how you understand something to know how someone else might understand it differently or being open to that. One of the other key examples that I'll tell people about is my negotiation class. They the gentleman that was leading it talked about, you know, so you and I, you know, are very interested in having this orange, and because there's a win lose kind of perception in society, you know, probably our thought is you and I can share that orange and have having that. And then there's further discussion, which really opened my mind for even further is the fact that we just had a discussion, we might, you know, understand that I just wanted the rind of the orange because I wanted to bake with it and we wanted to eat in orange and that's we both could have 100% of what we wanted, but because of you know, how I'd say we're conditioned in the society that we live in, our first guess is that I don't want to lose something by telling you too much. I suppose it was little moments along the way, I think from schooling and then you know, working that I've realised that call the different things but I'm learning is exactly as you said, they're just looking at something I've never giving up, you know, or saying that what you learned before isn't true. But recognising there's different truths to the same sort of situation. And I think my idea of constant learning, also is driven by the fact that if I ever find myself being like, Oh, this is gonna be easy Street. Now, I was like, well, all of a sudden, the warning bells go off. And I was like, and I'll pull back, and I'd be like, I don't change things up. Because to me, complacency is like the worst thing because that to me leads to, you know, a lack of trying to understand, you know more about the world. And so I have a habit of shaking things up. Right, from my high school days, I got myself into high school where I knew no one. And I kept on doing that. And that's even moving to Ireland, there was like, who do you know, there wasn't like building.
But still, it's, it's not that it's not scary. But I learned so much just by, you know, as I say, just changing my surroundings. And again, challenging what I know to be true. But still finding things where there's a commonality in so it definitely, you know, when people talk a lifelong learning, and I tried to live that by just experiencing life in different ways, both with, you know, formal education, as a foundation, I was wish that I could, like, duplicate myself, so I could go back to school, but still work. But then I supplement that with, you know, reading different things and making new friends like yourself that can, you know, provide a different insight, I remember with your thesis on volunteerism, was really great to learn more about how that actually works. Because as you know, that's what goes on to national level. And I'm kind of a lifelong volunteer, I always find myself, it's another place to, to learn, but also to give back, because I think that's something too is you can take, but there's, I see myself as someone who can encourage others to find value within themselves, like, because sometimes it's just that little bit of encouragement, or just because I can see things a little bit differently, I can really see the good where someone maybe doesn't see it themselves, and they just need that little push. And that's why I liked the volunteers. And I was mentoring a little bit there to where sometimes the ladies just needed to know that they were doing a good job. Because we don't always have those checks and balances, especially as you get older. I mean, in school, you get a gold star, but in life, there aren't any gold stars given out. So I think we can do that ourselves for each other. So yeah, it's in a roundabout way. That's the constant process of learning and relearning. Especially I find in the past number of years, that we've had a lot of challenges to, you know, what we know to be true?
Yeah, absolutely. Um, and, and, and I think that sometimes, with unlearning, you know, what we already know, maybe actually what prevents us from knowing more. And, um, you know, there's it, whether it is now, just to let everybody know, you know, unlearning is a concept that has become very prevalent in this 21st century. But it isn't just for one particular sector, or for one particular area or group of people. You know, unlearning is as a concept that is taken very seriously in business, in the business world, in your personal life, for personal enrichment, in education, and also, this area of social and societal unlearning challenging the way you used to think about things and how you think about them. Now, what we already know, may often be a stumbling block and what prevents us from knowing more. And Victoria, you touched on something as well, you talked about building on a foundation, and sort of basic principles, and then what you do with it and where you go from there. From there. Why do you think that we are so hesitant to let go of old ways? Well,
it's an interesting one is just as you were speaking, there is what sort of came to mind and it's probably something that I continue to wrestle with and need to educate myself on, is understanding privilege. I think, from my own personal experience, is it's not even you know, the idea of of letting go. It's even understanding that it's there. Because, as we've learned, in my own reference point is I am a woman, identify as a woman and I am visibly caucasian, and I live in Canada and Toronto had a pretty good upbringing, you know, in terms of, there's been challenges, but in terms of socio economic kind of conditions, they've been fairly optimal for me growing up, and what I realised is I didn't even know, I had to learn or challenge my own understanding of the world. But as I was listening to some of the movements, and my own sort of reference point, was the me to movements and how much the male family members didn't understand. And I again, I'm privileged women, I'm also tall in stature. So I'm not even like, you know, a little bit imposing. I do. But the fact that like, I was telling my brothers, that, you know, if I'm leaving on a Sunday night, and it's starting to go down, that I have to think I'm like, because risk to get between my parking lot to my apartments, and I live in a pretty good area. But there's a risk. And I said, Do you know, every time I park at this time of night, I wonder if someone might attack me. And I said, and I don't really don't like to make very broad statements. But I said, I'm pretty darn sure 100% of women feel the same way. And I said, I don't really don't make blanket statements, but I'm pretty sure yes, any other any woman, you know, walking, you know, in downtown kind of area, and she would not look over her shoulder. I used as a reference, I said, if I can feel as a woman that men don't understand why go through. Like, even without even understanding those movements. Of course, it like it is true. And so I said to people like, like, you have to challenge your assumptions, because this has been surprising. And even with now COVID. And like, you know, I feel like we've just had so many different things, challenging our assumptions, recognising the world around you, when it's just very easy to go through your day to day and just kind of stay in that line. in that lane, I guess you could save your life and not challenging yourself to don't there's something better. And in terms of like, why people find it difficult. Sapiens, one of the first sort of opening chapters, he talks about the fact that the figments of our imagination sort of differentiate us from other species and our ability to construct these sorts of stories. And I mean, we would know this, but not really think about it, but countries don't exist. It's we've defined them ourselves, you know, we go to jobs, with companies that don't even physically exist anymore. They're just sort of an idea. And so there are certain constructs, but like, again, I guess what, for me, for I'm learning is within that sort of structure, can we? Do we just follow a path? Or do we can we Is there a space for learning or freedom within that time, I believe we can be better. But I also feel you have to have a dose of realism, to understand what actually is possible, but also to push boundaries. But I think there has to be a healthy dose of those, you can't all of a sudden decide, I'm not going to work anymore. Because I decided that's not how I want to work, the world is still going to sort of guide you to that, I think there are certain places where you can have meaningful impact and freedom. You just have to define them.
Yeah, that idea of breaking those established patterns in society, but also keeping an open mind and understanding the changes that are necessary.
It's, it's a challenging thing, and every time like it's being open and to listen and, and then to figure out what what can I do and then sense of activism. And I mean, I wrestled with this, like I What am I capable of and and I realised that I needed to start, not just my slow observing yourself, you have to start there. But then with the people as people closest to me, where I could have the impact, because when you talk about unlearning, it's going against what they know to be true. And so just as another example, people can understand why people don't want to take the vaccine or I was like, because we've been conditioned, like the in terms of now mind you did take a year or so to come to vaccines. So it has taken time. But the message we were getting that it happened too fast. And are we not the world today, where something is fast and cheap. And so it's already in our brain that Oh, I can't be good if it happened fast. But yet, like again, this is a second year, university course where we talked about planned obsolescence, and it was the idea that things are actually in a different way. are planned to break down. So to keep you buying things, I think the example the time was, if you invested in your first car was a Rolls Royce, you would only need one, because those cars are actually planned not to break down, like in terms of quality. But we don't necessarily ask these questions and consumerism, you know, you need to get the latest phone, you get the latest laptop, and it doesn't maybe occur to people that actually has a plant that that behaviour. And so that's why that feeds into other parts of our, you know, our understanding. And so when people were saying, I can understand this, like I can like this, you know, everything in it, because it's not the pandemic is a very serious situation that we've all obviously been living through. But it's like, what contributes to fears? Well, we've been told to think one way and now we're like, No, no, that's okay, we can get a quality product out, you know, if we all work together, and if you It's fascinating, because I love it, I work in a world of marketing and communication and advertising. And you might have heard this before, too, that, you know, you go to McDonald's, and it smells the same, because they have said, like, like even in a car, there's a new car smell, it's actually manufactured, so that you evokes this kind of emotional response. But sort of when you see these bigger things happen. You're almost not surprised how there can be this kind of fear not to mention we haven't seen in our lifetime, a pandemic, I think it's always been equated similar to the Spanish flu, I think is the closest situation that's happened, you don't know how people are actually thinking. And for me, it's really almost exposed, I guess, the fact of how differently and again, I'm trying to understand on an ongoing basis how people think, and, and this has been one where I've been surprised when people I'm like, I feel like I would know someone almost to the point of pegging them as be like, for sure they're going to take the vaccine. And then and then to find that there is possibly a doubt, that's been another sort of challenging thing for me words, you think, you know, a situation or how a person might think, and then there's other things that obviously can really drive a different opinion there.
So and the other thing is the masks, you know, that's, that's another very in society that's becoming very contentious. And the thing of it is, is that people don't stop to think, you know, it's been said, from the very beginning, not just in the United States, but all over the place, you know, masks are not, it's not about politics. And, um, but yet, you know, if somebody who has an immune deficiency, or immunocompromised, and maybe they're getting the vaccine as well, and, you know, what, there's still that concern that this highly contagious, you know, viruses out there, and, you know, and they're, they're wanting to wear a mask in public, or, you know, I'm just, I'm very curious as to how when things begin to wind down, um, you know, how many people you know, will continue to wear masks in public spaces, like buses, and it's something that I even think of for myself, you know, and then, and then what happens is people, you know, you've got people questioning you, well, why are you wearing a mask? You know, are you afraid? Or, you know, what, what, what is your reason for wearing a mask? And it's, it's a very, it's very personal reasons. And, and masks should not be looked at derogatory, whether somebody wears one or not? It is that idea of societal changes that are happening, and how are we going to deal with them? And what kind of an open mind and a thought process are we having about our fellow human beings? One of the things that you had touched on, as well, was that idea of fear. You had said it earlier, you know, fear, and I think that's one of the biggest reasons why going back to our original question that that I had asked you was, you know, why do you think that people are so hesitant, we are so hesitant to let go of old ways, and I think that fear is a big one, fear of what comes next. Um, you know, fear of uncertainty or failure if we let go, or if we do something differently, or if we do something that we feel is challenging us. But we but we are afraid that you know that we're going to be embarrassed or you know, that we're just going to fail at it. Um, fear is actually one of the biggest factors across all contexts. When I was talking earlier about business personal societal, in unlearning. Fear is often the biggest factor. Some of the fear that keeps people from unlearning or learning in a new way is that feeling that it's that somehow the outcome is is going to be detrimental and in some way, and so it almost freezes you in your spot. And another one is, you know that people struggle with unlearning that, you know would be of interest to is what you might learn, or a new awareness that you might gain. What does this mean? You know, for my for my identity, this awareness that I'm getting, you know, so so there's that too.
I think the identity one is interesting one too, just another vein, I turned 40 earlier soon, and someone asked me like, so what? Anything changed different. So the only thing I found out turn 40 is I can no longer freeze my eggs. Again, what was interesting is talking about learning and unlearning, because I had this sort of wrestling. You know, what is this like, check the box success as a woman isn't a mile alone, I feel it in many people's minds, where it's just kind of like Married with Children have a great career, I guess. And there you go. And so in this process, though, what I came to realise, in finding out that everything was fine, which is great. And I wish I would have learned about this asked this question earlier, maybe 10 years ago, but it was great to be able to sort of figure out, you know, what the cycle was, and the fact that I was healthy, was that I didn't want to freeze my eggs. But I didn't. I was like, even though the nurses like, obviously, there was, in a way condition that everyone who goes majority, I'm sure who go there are actually trying to get pregnant. Because a clinic is not just like a monitoring, it's mostly like IVF treatments to have kids is every time I went there, I had to prepare myself, I was like, all the nurses are going to be really supportive of me, assume and assuming I'm going to be doing this and having children and everything. And then the other thing that was I think a little different, is that I was also expected to have a partner with me. And so but then I was also encouragement of having children on my own, all of which I was like, not, not not there yet, I was just looking to see if I was healthy internally, and the process and whatnot. But it was like, still I wrestled with it, because it's an indicator of success, where it's again, relearning, or educating. Even my mom that I'll be fine, you know, in older age, because there's again, this conditioning that and I come from a family where there's four children that will support our mother and I still have this, you know, the fear we were talking about when I was like, I just saw that I was like, what I'm older. I don't have children to support me. But I'm like, not even planned for that. And I have to say, like even being a single like woman, that trying to be successful. I remember at one point, I was done in front in Ireland, I realised that my ambition and drive for success was because the world is made for two people, most of the things that I wanted to do and buy or have a certain living standard would have been so much easier if I had two incomes, whereas I had to sort of supplement what would have been a second income to live the life. There's a bit of adjustment when I came down and very expensive to live in Dublin. So he knows. And it even that blew my mind because I met women who were 10 20 years, my senior that were living with other people. And it's a normal thing there too. I think North American culture, I would say is that normally you would expect to live on your own, but it was like just so crazy, I think to make enough money to be friends even struggling myself. The rents are so high.
And when you're saying these people that you knew were living with other people, you You mean a roommate situation. housemates situation, you're not talking about living with a partner, but not married, you're talking about actually renting a room or renting a part of a house that other people are renting where you have some friends type of a scenario. I just wanted to make sure that that our listeners are very clear that when you said that they were living with someone with someone or someone's that they that meant that doesn't mean that they were with a partner sharing their finances. They're just sharing the cost of the stupid house that they live in.
Yes. I mean, I'm here like I choose to live in downtown Toronto, which is expensive. But my quality of life like I pretty much figured out that I don't like to commute. So too bad and actually in Toronto, but I'd rather to me, it's how you equate also, I think it's funny, we'd have the same the same The time is money, but I don't think it has home to a lot of people. It always made me laugh when I saw people lined up for a little bit of a cheaper gas but they're running there. engines to wait to get an answer like, This made sense to me a few cents, but also the idea of like waiting half an hour an hour to get to the gas pump. I was like, What is that how many senses back that I'm saving? So I have I should I should qualify for the audience that I haven't sales. So I have equated time as money. And in sales return on time invested is a very big thing. And it's a game of success in terms of how efficient you can be with your time to make the most advantage advantageous deals. That also I've been told, by friends of mine, that that that frame of reference does make me think about things a little bit differently. But Ireland actually challenged even those assumptions as to what success and happiness looks like, surely, and I'm a very good mutual friend, Marie Nugent, who would have settled the course of the five years that my levels of stress or that was related to work have have changed because of how I value things differently. And now just like experiencing life, I would say, that's probably what I miss during COVID as I like to experience different cultures and travel. To me, I'd say I, I work to travel is probably my motto. Again, that does when I stand back and think about that, I do know that that is again another level of privilege, in what do I sort of do that? And I think, fear to in that regard, because I feel it is recognised like thinking, Is it wrong? to think through these things of privilege? And almost Are you deserving or not? That is a philosophical question of yourself, which is very personal and deep, I think. Because when you think of access, and I know me personally, again, another really great friends, family, who we talked a lot about, again commercialism and consumerism, and what really makes you happy, and letting go. And I still in the process of unsubscribing, to many and marketing email. Coincidentally, I've been marketing and I recognise what they're trying to do. But stopping myself and think, do I actually really need that at this point in time. But that's, again, the conditioning in trying to get out of a cycle that we've grown up in and recognise it for what it is. So that's, for me, the process of learning or relearning or learning at all is almost understanding the pieces and you know, how they fit in. But almost the bias of the pieces too, which is kind of interesting. And what am I really interested in learning from my own family? Because they're just some conversations, as I remember saying, just male friends and family members that, you know, this conversation makes me feel really uncomfortable. And it was interesting for me that that word really resonated. Because I found that, I don't know what is that that word, but it really worked to open up discussion because those people cared about me. And so no one wants to hurt somebody, but the word uncomfortable like, why do you feel uncomfortable? I'm like, your conversation and tone about this issue is really affecting me. And what I realised sometimes when we're angry about something, we are we speak in an angry kind of tone.
How do I explain this, like, you know, when you're when you disagree with someone, a lot of the times it's the rational brain that says, this, you know, whatever situation makes me feel really angry, or I really believe you're wrong, and you're understanding, like, but then really, the other thing that's part of that is acknowledging the feeling behind it. And that's, for me, at least from the female, like MeToo movement is to understand and explain, you know, how that makes me feel has been very impactful. Because then you're moving beyond the facts, I think of the situation. Because I feel like this situation of being a woman in this world, it has a factual side, but a very emotional, non rational side, and in my kind of business, but I've applied it to life. Also, is decision making happens, mostly from the rational side. We don't like to acknowledge that but it does. Like especially when you're in a sales, and you're trying to understand why someone makes a decision. It's like you get the facts to a certain point, but then the ultimate decision is based on irrational behaviour. And it's understanding that even when it doesn't necessarily make sense, it's trying to then help people understand your situation. I found some cases to take the rational impaired with it and feelings are very rational. Because, as we know from relationships, there's no logical reason why something's happened. And why you feel the way you do to explain that to somebody else.
You know, I wanted to ask you, we've talked a lot about personal you know, unlearning, from a personal perspective, we talked about unlearning, from a societal perspective, which obviously the, you know, it's very obvious that they're all interconnected. But what I'd like to know is, do you think that unlearning is vital in today's workplace? And if so, why? Or if not, why?
Yeah, um, and again, like, I'm very fortunate to have a team that I manage, as well as working with other organisations. And it's interesting because I, as a professional, and I actually asked that stay in my title, to have sales is, generally, people don't want salespeople, because they seem to want to push something on you that you don't need was the used car salesman would be that. And to me, it doesn't have to be that way. And what am I sort of touch points is maybe on learning how to describe the new workplace is standing back and understanding the people behind the decision. And the fact that we could have, again, from my negotiation sort of background is you can come together and have a mutually beneficial solution that benefits both parties. So yes, I sell you a service and I make money on it in order to operate. That's how the world works. But you can also get value from what it is that I do. And that's how I've always presented what I do as a service, both here in Canada, as well as, as an Ireland and define that, that fit. And it's definitely been successful, because to me, it just doesn't make any sense. But it's sort of the way because the sales role has targets vary, you have to financial, you have to make those that sometimes people I can see out of fear of not being able to make them push things on the people that they don't necessarily need. And for whatever reason, I guess, this is a field that works for me, is I've never felt driven by fear. Because what trumps always is a meaningful relationship with someone. And part of that for me, too, is just sort of standing back, I guess, reputation for me means a lot. And so if I gave you something that in the end, you would be like more African or I really gave you something I didn't really need and I spent a lot of money on it. I would feel personally like, I don't know, which is my own sort of makeup, is that would be far worse for me, then then trying to meet a target. That wasn't achievable by me in the first place. But honestly, to me, it's, it's a great position. So I sort of thrive in this position because I just like to talk to people ask questions, find out if there's a need. And so what I've been trying to do in my own job now in terms of, of learning, especially leading a team, is the foresight is to never get myself into a situation where I have to do something that is uncomfortable, which is usually comes to like correction to you know, a situation be at targets not being matter. And so when having read, getting into this position in different sort of philosophies about that is glass half full, I have an awesome team and I attended a seminar actually at Facebook in Dublin was I was speaking about leadership, and it really hit home about this concept of you know, your job is to make sure that your team can be the best that they can be. And as a leader, what you're doing is making sure all the pieces around them are supporting that. And Shelli, you know, I love processing and everything in this world people to be I obviously process can set you free. And so what I try to do behind the scenes, is create an environment where they can be successful. And so what I try to do is figure out where the problems, you know, might be occurring. Because I know from listening, if I hear something more than once or a few times, I'm like, it's often an issue. And it doesn't have to be an issue. So let's figure it out, and why that's causing a problem. So for me, I feel like in a way, I want people to continue to do the successful job that they're doing. So now that they have to change for the sake of change. And that's I think a good concept of unlearning is really You know, saying that some things are actually Okay. And then but understanding. And again, the other word that will always be worrisome for me is status quo. And complacency don't like that cessful. I don't like that either.
Because in this world, there's always something I feel like that can be done a little bit better. It doesn't mean have to change your product and services. It just like, for example, with my team, they're doing a great job. And so through the course of our conversations are, we actually have formal kind of points during the year where we talk about how the jobs will use reviews, I guess more a bit more like a dialogue. And the idea came up, which sits close to my heart, but like, having a bootcamp once a month, where we take a couple hours, two or three hours in, we've sort of figured out is one person will talk about data life in their job, or our featured speakers. And then we spend another hour or so talking about a few chapters in the book, right now are reading, Good to Great, which is to get more than top 10 like business books to read. But it gives us a chance to have a bit of a dialogue. Outside of our everyday work. It was a principle that I took from working with startups in Ireland. And so what do you call it on learning or just like relearning or applying different disciplines, I found a lot of what the startup culture does. And what they would do is once a month, I think I've heard from founders is they would have like, same software, and they would just have everybody just do whatever they want, write their own code, you know, do something a little bit different presented to the team. I've heard about the restaurant industry, too, you know, someone can create their own dish that they can then present to the team, I guess, to try it. And I was like, how can we do this in my own work. And so it actually came out of discussion with one of my employees. And I said, you know, we should do that. And we've been doing it now for a few months. And, and everyone what's really cool is it's actually spreading to the company consists of my team, everyone's heard about what we've been doing, which is great, because I'd love to implement it, where it's part of the team. But what I find out on our discussion, is people will reference the book that we're reading, it's a glance, really see this, what I'm doing my every day. And the other thing we realise too, is we don't actually fully know what everyone does in the company. In a day in our life, you know, enough to get by. But it's been really interesting to hear from the people who deliver the services. what it is they do, like, even a little bit of minutia. Because there's things that we've learned, like how many realise that's what and so but it's honestly, it's creating a forum for that. Which is interesting, because we've talked about society, we've talked about like different sort of realms of learning, and I'm learning and you have to foster a space in there, like for that to happen. Otherwise, it's literally just lip service. And I think many person would save a lot of these bigger issues is that those issues have been around for a long time, it just no one has given them airtime, or actually move beyond the surface level kind of agreements on. And that's why I think we talked about business and unlearning is you can have a seminar, you can read a book, but unless you provide a space for it to become a habit? Or is it a habit forming, or at least for an understanding of how to implement the learnings in a space like that, you're not going to see any change. And one of the concepts or even reading the book, which is great to hear the dialogue from my team is having, it's not even just having your employees be able to say what it is that they are thinking is are you actually are they actually being heard. And so we've discussed that, because like, you know, and how we, even as a company can get better about that. So it's exciting because I feel like any change has to happen from within. And the people themselves have to make that change happen, as opposed to one person telling you what it is you shouldn't believe. So it's for me, it's been really rewarding to be able to take my own learnings, but open up to the fact that, you know, my team might have other ideas about that being very supportive. What are the companies is really good to to sort of provide that, that space for that to happen, but we're in progress.
Yeah. And you know, earlier you said you when you were talking I don't know if you even noticed it, but you questioned yourself and you're like, I don't know if that's actually unlearning or is it adapting? You know, it is it is unlearning, because you're you're taking these formal learning and communication, that that would be traditionally what you see in business. And, you know, in the business world, and you've adapted, right to more agile learning to a collaborative working approach, and that most certainly is unlearning, you know, um, because as you were saying, you've taken some things that you've learned, that are different in other places. And, you know, you've, you've brought them into your new role into what you're doing. And, you know, you're using those with your, with your staff and with your employees. And, you know, though, yeah, it is, you know, the adapt, and change and rethink, those are actually all part of unlearning, because you're kind of setting aside that those old traditional ways of doing things, and doing things new, more innovative and different. So that would definitely be unlearning. And employees need to unlearn in order to move forward alongside their company, so that they can move ahead also. So you know, and work more effectively, and not only further themselves, but also further their company's mission. So absolutely, you know, what you've been talking about is, is unlearning. So don't doubt yourself for one second, it is.
I think two is having had various like leaders and what I liked and what I didn't like from them also. I think it's also your willingness to learn or challenge like how, you know, you conceptualise managing a team of people, it's actually harder than that, it looks like you know, they say some people are, you know, not meant to be managers of people, they're better as a sole contributor. And that's not enough. Like, I think, some people are really great and should really just be sole contributors. Because managing people is difficult. But it's very rewarding. It's just, like, as I say, finding what makes them tick and supporting that on through, you know, positive environment. And because I actually can't remember a visual, and we absolutely are bound by like a fiscal year, and I thought, one day is like, a bit of a walk, and I was thinking, then it like meeting a sales target is like running a marathon, just creating the necessary like environment, and the fact that you don't have to like, be, you know, thinking about people who win the marathon race is not the ultimate goal was just to finish, and have encouraged me so that we can finish together and honestly, in a good standing, because at the end of the day, there's a business objective. Part of the thing, too, I find too, about the learning and I'm learning of the office environment, is encouraging dialogue, truly encouraging dialogue, to talk about things that maybe are not working for them. And I feel like managers in my past have never even talked to me about that. But the idea that I might one day leave the position in the past, for the fact that that's not a bad thing, I don't know, in the workplace, I feel like I've always felt that leaving a job was like, something is bad, in terms of happens, so you don't want to discuss that sort of situation. And as a manager, now people is just to be open and saying, I know that you choose to be here, and I want to make sure that this is a place you want to be at. So let's talk about that. But the same time on your career path. What do you want to learn? Like, what what do you want to do? into we achieve that here, with the understanding as much I want to keep all my employees that I feel like people who enjoy because I've been that person, like when I left my job on here, and went to Ireland on I wanted to leave it in a really good place. Because I cared about my, my clients. And so I want to foster an environment with my own team. Because we've all worked with people who have not been happy, you know where they are in the fit isn't there. I've always vowed myself that I will leave that environment. But I don't. We're not feeling my best. Because ever I think we all know that as much as you think you can hold that in. People know when you're not happy.
Yeah, as the same when you're in a toxic work environment. It's, it's lethal. It's toxic. And you know, and sometimes the thing of it is, is that you're so dedicated and committed and loyal to the cause, that you actually don't realise how toxic and how lethal it was until you're out the other side until you look back and go, Oh, I wouldn't go back there for love or money.
But there's also a hit and it's interesting having gone through the job search process and then obviously bit in different jobs to is and again I have to I always check myself because it is a privilege I've done well. I've been able to get different positions. I've had the luxury of either To move positions, I recognise that, but just in terms of the fit, because we find, yeah, there can be a toxic environment for sure. But other times also is recognising that you've either people call it everything's outgrown the position or in catching that sooner if possible, because again, with my own team, it's having dialogue to make sure the fit is still there. And what's really cool about the place I work is that we have people who have moved positions to different parts of the company, and be able to sort of talk about that kind of transition, which doesn't always happen. It's not, we're not a very big company. But it's great to know that there is that. But even in my own role before I left, and I'm glad that in a way, I was able to leave, glad. And I was, I was able to have an open discussion about my future, and leave on good terms where I wasn't able to get what I wanted. But that didn't have to be a bad thing. Because I was able to then do what I did, and learn what I did in Ireland, and I'm better for it. Now, in terms of the position I'm in today, also, but it doesn't always seem evident at the time. But I was ready for adventure. Also, which was kind of neat to be able to live and live abroad. But yeah, it's um, walking the talk. As I say, it's still looking, looking to the rational points of things that we know to be true. And then safely adapting. And moving. Yeah.
And, you know, there's something that you said, you know, earlier about that, that concept of removing sort of unsupported belief systems or, or things that, you know, that you believe to be true, aren't anymore, you know, and that's very much, you know, kind of what is happening in the world of education, because of COVID, COVID, you know, obviously, launched many of the levels of education into fast forward motion. And there has been a lot of conversation about the this idea of unlearning, and, and removing those unsupported belief systems. And those, you know, that whole idea of old ways don't open new doors mentality in this movement that's happening, is happening, you know, from my perspective, very much so in higher education. And it's challenging the traditional definitions of education, the classroom, the teacher and student, because everything was, you know, put online. And that it is I will say that it's a bit more complicated and slow to progress in the tertiary education, so in primary and post primary, or compulsory education, because there's, they still have that they still operate under that fear of making any major changes without the blessing of the educational, governing bodies. But in higher education, there's been a little bit more autonomy and freedom to challenge those, you know, those traditional classroom and learning, formal learning roles. And there's a particular expert that I follow in education. And I've heard him speak a couple of times, I follow him on Twitter. His name is Jesse Stommel. And he is an excellent example of somebody who's, who's chasing their unlearning model in education. He's taking risks, and he's, you know, breaking those traditions and standards in a really positive way. There's there's many more that are doing this as well, because like I said, in higher education world, this conversation has been going on for the past year and a half. But the interesting thing about him and I wanted to get your take on this is that he doesn't grade his students. In fact, he calls it on grading. So here we are talking about unlearning. And he also calls it radical assessment. And basically what he believes is that grading by any of the conventional, traditional academic metrics actually undermines the work of the student. So he says grades are not incentive. They're not good incentive. Giving grades. grades are not good feedback. Grades encourage competitive competitiveness over collaboration. grades are not good markers of learning. Grades don't reflect idiosyncratic, idiosyncratic, subjective or emotional character of learning. And he says grades aren't fair. So basically, what he does is he challenges adult and higher educators to look at the mission and the vision statement of their Universities, and then to look at their assessment policies side by side on that. And he will, he says that rarely, if ever do the to align. And this is an excellent argument for changing assessment, delivering embracing assessment strategies that embrace the mission and the vision of the moon, the college or the university, is to look at that. And then to align your assessment, the way you assess with the vision statements, and with the graduate attributes, and these types of things that were these expectations that we have of these students when they graduate. And I just, I find it I find his work fascinating. And so I was very curious, being that you are a business minded person who has obviously gotten your masters, you've been through the higher education, you've had grades you've had you know, this, what do you think about this?
What do you have to say, I do a Master's just to be so interesting, I want to pursue it, but I didn't have the grades actually. Interesting. Okay. I feel like the grades was a carrot, though. So I don't know the interesting to hear this guy. Because I feel like that structure did help me. But then the thing that's interesting is I had unstructured opportunities. And I'd have to really look back and say, was that why I became very successful? Or is it just the combination of the two, I've benefited from elementary school, so we go in the Catholic school system, to grade eight, and then grade nine. For me, I had a 13th year. That's how we sort of separate our schooling. And in elementary, I was identified as what they call gifted. So I went to another school where I was able to basically learn and do projects on anything, I felt that I one was sharks one year, one other year, I scared the teacher and did Nostradamus but especially in a Catholic school, I literally had a conversation with somebody, okay. And I was like, Yeah, I just thought this is really interesting. I want to understand how someone could actually predict the end of the world. logical to me, now, I'm sure it'll make sense to you, right? Like, I'm sure I would totally do a project on those. Um, and then. So that gave us sort of a understanding. And I came back to the regular sort of school system, the other days of the week, I guess there was some self motivation. And again, if I had the open, you know, parents that were willing to let me do let me do these things. So that's definitely there. So it's interesting, like the the non marketing thing, because I have to say, so my father passed when I was younger, and I know he definitely was very keen on marks. So we would definitely talk about that type of stuff. So I feel so I think it was a carrot that was there. But I have to say, in a situation of circumstance that I was afforded a couple of extra opportunities. My chance, I don't know that they had a gifted programme that let me open up my mind to other kinds of possibilities. And I don't know if I actually got graded, I remember getting grades. But the other thing, too, is having good teachers. When my father passed when I was in grade nine, I was in the enriched math class because I was actually good, but that events like stunted my math, brain growth, so but I remember the teacher who knew my potential allowed me to get into a course for calculus, because she knew I might go to U of T University of Toronto, and in psychology, for some reason you need calculus. And so she let me take it I just scraped by, I think with the help of one of my friends did not go into U of T anyways. But so in that regard, a little bit of flexibility from the teachers, obviously ated. So the end goal, they knew where I was headed. So in that respect, I guess the grades again, it was still a carrot of meaning to get that credit. But it didn't stop me from learning. Towards the end of my time in high school, and someone came up to me. And now you know, my background of math is is very shaky. asked me for help with math. I have never I laughed out loud. And I was like, no, that you're looking to my other group of friends. I was the only person who didn't really do well enough. All the other guys did. And so I was like, I said, I laughed because I was like, wow, people think I'm good at that. Because I'm like, Is it like osmosis? We just like rub but that's another thing too is just, that's a hard one like to help people unlearn what they think you represent. So yeah, we unpack that one. I'm just kind of like and that's like Okay, well, Ted, where people like I almost see that as in terms of the dating world where it's just kind of like people like, Well, it's because you're so successful and tall and, you know, whatever and just hold yourself that it's almost like off putting other men. I was like really? Maybe there's an unlearning in society that needs we all know what that is. That's that's another strange again,
I'm sorry, you don't you you think men are interested in competent women, feminist women, you know, outspoken women with a voice with, you know, again, body autonomy and all of us, like, what
I'm learning of the fact of, you know, what's attractive and that and to be fair, I have met men who have found that very attractive, but that's another societal learning of like, the enrich lives. And I found myself saying this, because I really liked the term is like, if I dated someone or you know, have a long term relationship is calling them a partner and having a partner is a great way to turn to someone as lead.
Sounds equal. It's equal. It's a it's about equality. And yeah,
It's working together because as a partner, like getting a two legged race or something like that, you need to work together to get to the to the finish line.
I think it's a three legged race
A two-legged would be a little intense.
Yes, thanks for having I really enjoyed it.
I hope that you've enjoyed this discussion on a dash of salt, a space where you'll always find fresh and current discussions on society and learning today. Season with just the right touch of experts and education and a dash of sociological imagination. Please be sure to like and share this episode. And don't forget to subscribe to a dash of salt on pod bean so that you don't miss the next episode. Thanks so much and we'll chat again soon.