Okay. Yeah, so let me give you a little background what this is just like to give a little bit, a little intro just in case anybody's watching this, this is a project we're doing to look at the empathy definition to create a typology. And we're shatta and I are wanting to form a team, you know, get some others also on board that are interested in working on a, on a typology, because there's so much confusion about the, the definitions of the word empathy, and we are going to use empathic listening for the discussion. So just as everyone knows what it is that we're doing. And so I will start, I'll be the first speaker, and I'll be speaking to Shannon, who's going to reflect what I'm saying. Until, until I run out of things to say. Okay, sin of empathy. That was a great, there's a discussion or I sent that to in the evangelical community, one of the sort of a director or somebody in the in a evangelical seminary, college, wrote a paper on the sin of empathy. And there was a whole bunch of discussions about it. And I thought it was just really interesting, because it's all about definitions, I think again.
So you are, you're citing this. I guess the whole website is, but you're citing not just the TOC sin of empathy, and there's all these, this information that intersects with I guess that underlying heading and it's intersects with also definitions of empathy?
Yeah. Because it's like, what are we talking about? It's like I listened to it. So it was a guy Joe, Rick Lee, I think he wrote a wrote a an article, you know, sort of questioning empathy, and is it a sin? And I think he was trying to be a little, you know, pithy, no challenge challenging. Controversial, I think he was trying to be a little controversial in his statement, too. And so he wrote it, there was responses, he made responses to the responses. And then it's actually there's a whole bunch of a whole thread of different discussions around it. And I've been listening to some of you know, some, yeah, most of it trying to kind of step into it, since I have an evangelical background grew up in that environment. Familiar.
So you've really been kind of fascinated with this discussion, because you've from an evangelical background, and so you kind of wrote, I don't know,
have a raised by reference and amused by.
And you're amused by the maybe provocative nature of his statement that empathy is a sin.
Yeah. And it was interesting, because there is sort of a clarity in terms of what people are expressing in terms of the arguments and the back and forth. And for me, it's really about what the heck are we calling empathy? You know, it's like, there's all these things that they're criticizing, which I don't consider our empathy. But the problem is, is to have those blocks to empathy, those responses, you have to empathize first, right? So I kind of really got a sense that the blocks to empathy are sort of inter intertwined with empathy, because you got to sort of emphasize then your reaction is to shut down empathy in one way or another.
Okay, um, I don't know if I got all that. But you were kind of drawn into the discussion because they really, they really focus on box to empathy. And then I think I missed the last part.
Oh, no, I see. What they are talking about is empathy. I actually see as blocks to empathy. Oh, thanks, Chris. Things are criticizing about empathy aren't even aren't empathy. I think that they're actually things that inhibit empathy. And, yeah, so that's the first part.
So it says they're talking about things that inhibit empathy. So they're talking about maybe the exact opposite to what they're kind of proposing to address,
right? If they think they're talking about empathy, but I would say hey, you're actually talking about the blocks to empathy and let me explain to you, you know, why these things are blocking what I would consider empathy. So again, it's like a, this definitional aspect is like people spending hours and hours talking about this stuff because there's a lack of a you know, you know, super clear you know, framework for For what we mean by empathy.
And so So you're saying there's people talking for hours and hours about this stuff, because there's such a lack of clarity around it. And so they can kind of go down the wrong path and get lost quickly. Exactly.
Yeah. And I did post to Joe's Twitter feed, you know, said, Hey, come talk to me. He won't, he doesn't respond that I've sent about three or four posts. And then on there on the Bethlehem college, they just said, Oh, we're having a, a inauguration or something for peace. He's going to be like director of something at that Beth Lam college. I said, Hey, he won't talk to me what's going on here. And I invited them to take an MVC trainings. And I did say, I would like to emphasize with your listen to and emphasize with your physician.
You keep trying to contact this guy, Joe, and he's not responding. And but he's having an event, I guess, at this college. And so you took that as an opportunity to try to connect with the whole kind of group.
Exactly. Yeah. Anyway, it's been very interesting. So I feel fully here. Thanks.
Yeah. Um, I watched the I watched, maybe it was him talking. I don't remember who it was. But it was one of the videos that you initially sent. And I don't remember the key points that I gleaned from it, but and I don't think all the points are lost, just because they might be working from a faulty definition of empathy. I'll put it that
way. Okay, so you did listen to some of the videos and some of the points they're making are lost because of faulty views or not understanding empathy, maybe as we understand it, or so they're making some good points, I think.
Yeah, I think they're making some good points. I think discernment is very, very important. I think there. There always should be, and there always is a third kind of a space between two people and that judgment, not judgment in a bad way. But discernment should and does come into empathy. Otherwise, it's I think a lot of what they had said otherwise, it's like fusion, unquestioning fusion with other people's ideas in a way that could be really harmful, actually, to both people.
So yes, you're agreeing with the issue of fusion with someone and that that's, that's harmful. So you're this way? They're, they're making a relevant point.
Yeah, and I think they're, I think, from what I remember of the talk, it was sort of in reaction to what they see is kind of societal trends in people interacting in groups and with one another that like, there's this somehow belief or assumption that if you're not agreeing with someone that you're not empathizing with them. And that's, yeah.
So that they're what they're trying to address is kind of a larger trends within society. And, and one of those aspects is that if you don't agree with someone, you're, you know, you're not empathizing with them. And they're sort of criticizing that.
Mm hmm. So I guess what part of what they were trying to express is that. And I don't know how much I agree with this, but they were saying that we've become a society that empathizes so much with the victim mentality that we to even step back and question what actually happened, like is are is considered on empathic? It's like considered an empathic failure. Because that's like, oh, how could you even ask, like, this person's clearly hurting? Like what's, you know, why are you stepping back to even ask that question? And so I think that that, to me, was a very provocative, really important point, I think, to think about, yeah. So you
see the point that they're making that if someone is hurting, and you sort of step back to, you know, sort of look at it, that, that you're not being empathic and then you're criticized for it, then you see that that is a valid point.
Yeah. I sort of share the concern that like, oh, we, you know, are we as a society be shutting down thinking and reflection to the extent that we can't critically think without kind of getting attacked.
So you're sharing the concerns that if you can't think critically, then you'll be criticized for it or attacked and new views. Or if you do critically think about it, that you'll be attacked. Or if you step back, critically think about what's happening, then you'll be attacked. And you have you see that in society, sort of, towards the victim, if you don't listen to the victim kind of agree with them, you know, support them, then you'll be you'll be attacked. And it sounds like you have concerns about that as well.
Yeah, very much so. And so, so my recognizing the importance of that point and the profundity of that point, as as a good message that comes out right now. It kind of Trumps me thinking, well, they're not quite talking about empathy in the way that I see it. I'm kind of like, No, this is all relevant. It's just that they kind of have the semantics awful look like in my view, and I say, I hear in your view, but I appreciate the message, I guess.
So the underlying message or dynamics, you appreciate that then, you know, there's this other issue of maybe this semantics that is a little off from how you and I might be seeing the vocabulary, the words? Yeah.
I have said I feel heard. Okay.
Oh, cool. Well, I have a lot of I don't know, if it's not I have a lot of agreement, actually with what their concerns are. And it's, it's a bit of a nod to untangle. And so I have, yeah, so I'll start with that.
That you have a lot of agreement with actually what they've said maybe as well, um, but that it's a bit of a knot.
Yeah. And the first part is, is you know about the victim and is I don't think that empathy sees victims, that if you empathize with someone, there's no victims, you're you're not victimizing or turning the person into a victim, you're hearing where they are, and what their experiences and having a sense of presence with that, and not saying, Oh, you're a victim. So I think that the whole concept of victim is victimizing, isn't it within how I see is the empathy doesn't support that.
The first thing you're taking issue with about their specific premise is that you don't see empathy as inherently victimizing of anyone that just because you empathize with someone doesn't mean you see them as a victim or doesn't make them victim.
So I tell this story a lot in you know, mediating a conflict in my family, or my sister in law got really mad at my mother. And my mother, you know, said Don't talk to me that way. And so these two people are in conflict. So I could see that my sister in law had sort of attacked my mother in this family event. And then I could see her as the victim, right and say, Oh, I have to protect her and stand up for her. But instead of doing that, I listened to my sister in law, and reflected back what I heard that she said, I didn't see her as a perpetrator. And all I did was see her as someone that has phenomenon that she is doing, you know, something that she's expressing. And I listened to and I empathized and I reflected back what I heard that she was saying, until she felt heard to her satisfaction. And I'm bringing this back to the empathy circle, right? Because we're trying to, you know, bring the discussion of these topics into what we're doing in the empathy circle. So that's part of the empathy circle, you listen to one person, whoever they are, whatever they're doing, and you hear them to their satisfaction. So I'll pause there.
Right, so you're recalling this time where you were in kind of a family conflict between your sister in law and your mom and who lent your your ear to your sister in law and so you kind of empathized with her use active listening. And in that case, she definitely wasn't the victim. In fact, she was the one kind of attacking your mother. So
it's a little bit different. I could have seen her as the attacker, right? I could say here is the perpetrator versus you know, if you're familiar with the victim rescuer Was it the victim, perpetrator, rescuer dynamic, right? That there's a person that you perceive as being the, the perpetrator. In this case, I could have seen it as my sister in law, because she kind of criticized my mother. And then I could see my mother is the victim. But instead, I think the empathic approach was to listen to both sides. And to see them not is to meet them both with empathic understanding, and not see them as perpetrator or a victim, but it's just people experiencing something that I'm going to empathize with here and try to understand.
So, yeah, so I think you were just clarifying what you meant that you just didn't, you didn't use those lenses through which to see your sister in law's like a perpetrator, your mom is a victim, you just gave them equal time to speak and you active listening, actively listened to both of them,
until they felt heard to their satisfaction. So I went back and forth, just like we do in the empathy circle, it's a little bit, you know, the turn taking was a little bit different. It was me listening to each party, until they felt heard, to the point where then this moves into the culture of empathy is that I tried to get them to reflect back with the other person said, so I said, Okay, you're saying this, they got a little bit of empathy, which they both come down because somebody was hearing them, right. So they got a bit more relaxed, had a bit more space, more capacity, then I said, Now speak to the other person, and that person will reflect back what they hear you say, and I kept them going. So they started doing a little empathy circle, empathic listening with each other. Yeah, so that was sort of the dynamic. And then it turned into sort of like an empathy circle with the three of us doing empathic listening in turn taking, like in the empathy circle. So I took that conflict, and I slowly brought it into an empathy circle, framework.
Mm hmm. So you were able to apply the empathy circle by bringing into this conflict between your sister in law and your mom, giving them both some empathy, and then kind of encouraging them to empathize with one another, and then re including yourself in that circle as well.
And then as I tell the story, the whole family which had been hiding in the corners, in behind the couch, everywhere else, they slowly came in, and it turned into this whole family empathy circle where one person would speak, they would select who they're speaking to. And it was through this dialog, that conflict was unraveled, a sense of connection was created. And there was actually ended with hugs all around. So
yeah. So even people that were like peripheral to the situation came in and joined. And kind of it sounded like a really positive experience that ended with actual hugs. And, yeah,
so in the sense, the criticism that Joe is having about, oh, these people are seen as victims, I think that true empathy does not see victims. It's not like, Oh, you are the victim, you are the perpetrator. Because as soon as you get into victim perpetrator rescuer, if you try to rescue the person who you see as the victim, you become a perpetrator to the person who's and then this total dynamic of victim is just people keep shifting roles. And it's just like this unending dynamic of victim perpetrator rescuer, and you just never get out of it. Whereas if you emphasize with all the parties and bring all the parties into a mutual listening, that that's what I'm seeing as empathy is that mutual listening or that culture of empathy or that empathic relationship?
Yeah. So you're making the point that, that this thing that is being pointed out as a potential downfall of empathy, which is kind of privileging victimhood is something that actually doesn't happen when you engage in empathy, and specifically in an empathy circle is that, you know, those those things are less likely as dynamics are less likely to be prominent?
Yeah. Because you're meeting everything first with empathy, that victim stuff might still be under the surface, but you're always meeting each other with empathy to begin with, which starts transforming the underlying dynamics. So I very much agree with you know, Joe, with his concerns about hey, you know, that, you know, I want to be able to speak to in this situation, like I have to just listen to that person get all enmeshed in what they're talking about, but the empathy circle and dynamics so that relational empathy actually addresses Their concerns with he would have a chance to be heard. And not only would he be heard in an empathy circle, he would be emphasized with. So I think it's sort of the solution to the dilemma that he's talking that least that aspect of the dilemma.
So you're seeing part of the dilemma that he's pointing to is that his discernment and thoughts don't aren't heard. And that you're saying no, that, that that's not empathy, and then in an empathy circle, he absolutely would get the chance to have his thoughts and yeah,
exactly, yeah, I feel deeply hurt. Thanks.
Yeah. Mmm
hmm.
I don't know, I feel a little bit. Um, I think there's a lot of variations in how empathy circles go, in my experience. And I think ideally, when there's a lot of like, love and history between people, like there has been a family that it could be awesome. And same with if you get a bunch of positive strangers together. I think that could be awesome, too. But not all of them are like that.
So not all empathy circles are kind of lovey dovey people, you know, having a lot of care that they they're not all like that they could be different, a lot of conflict law, they hate a lot of anger or whatever other kind of,
well, yeah, and people are untrained, they, they say things that are or do things, you know, if someone's triggered, they'll just straight up, it's happened to me too, if I'm triggered, you know, but I've seen people do to me, and it doesn't feel good, you know, you just stopped listening, you stop listening altogether. Or, like, you just say, I'm feeling bored, I'm having trouble paying attention, like, those sorts of things come up, and you know, they're, it's, it's a lot, it's a lot to entrust to strangers really. Or, you know, people you don't know. Um, and so that's kind of where my thoughts go with it so far.
So your, your thoughts are going to hear there's stuff that comes up that, you know, feelings of boredom, or people getting triggered about something that's being said. So there's a lot of, you know, kind of negative, or you didn't say negative, but kind of stuff that comes up. It's not all lovey dovey, you know, connection, there's a lot of stuff that other stuff that comes up, and that's what you're sort of sitting with, was coming up for you.
Yeah, and I'm thinking about, you know, it's, I'm thinking about how that there has to be some, there has to be a counterbalance, like there has to be an internal counterbalance of, of both, like feeling what someone's telling you, and also having discernment and keeping your own wits about you. And by the same token, there has to also be reciprocation and mutuality. And that's a tall order, both individually and also for a group of people or pair. If those things aren't there, it's not it doesn't work for anyone, I don't think.
So you having some skepticism, or seeing some problems that if there isn't sort of a sense of care or a sense of reciprocity, that it doesn't work wouldn't work can be harmful? Or it can be harmful? Yeah.
Um, so, you know, I've been thinking in the past couple of days of like, how do you mitigate that? I mean, do you get people together that are already in treatment? You know, how do you how do you mitigate that? Because? Because there's, I mean, as Joe's pointing out, empathy is complicated. And I think everyone wants Well, yeah, I'll just put it that way. I think that you know, in the course of trying to listen and try in the course of trying to make contact with each other, a lot can happen and a lot of messes can take place. And so that's not nothing that's not something you can kind of just say it will like your well it will be worked through and I don't I don't know that it can really Yeah, you
have some skepticism that you can just work through because a lot of messes will will come up and and maybe even harm could come out of it and you're a little skeptical that don't give it enough time that it would be worked through.
Yeah, I don't know that. I don't know that it could be so um, so I think that any any deep reflection on the process like Joe was doing, I think that's very appropriate. And I think that's very important that there be a deep reflection on kind of the process itself, interest psychically have empathy. You know, otherwise people stand to get hurt. If we if we are privileging just being there for them being there for them being there, then when you're not, it's confusing, and it creates a lot of unanswered questions that I think it's hard to imagine how that gets resolved. So,
so if you have this, so you're appreciating sort of stepping back, it sounds like sort of analyzing, looking at the dynamics. And so you're so having an appreciation for that, see that as important. And if you're there for people, I don't know, if it's like is a counselor or as in a, in an empathy circle, and they have that support, and then they don't, because they're outside of it, that you're seeing that is sort of a problem, they they float got that energy, and then they're not having it in the regular life is that sort of,
I sort of think that like that that's the the ideal view or the ideal. Trust that empathy will wipe out these kind of victim perpetrator, rescuer roles is beautiful and amazing. And I'm happy that sometimes it works out like that. But I actually don't think that it's so easy. And I think that when you demonstrate support that oftentimes people can think support is is agreement or Constant Contact. And so if you step back to, to think yourself, or if something happens for you internally, then it can really throw off those dynamics are really highlight those dynamics in a pretty big way. So that people do, in fact, fall into the roles of victim perpetrator and not in rescuer.
Let me see if I got that there's so I so to unravel the victim perpetrator rescuer sort of dynamics, that that's like a real challenge to your sounds like you're a little skeptical that the empathy circle would sort of be able to, to do that, to undo that. And that there's also an aspect that if you're in in the circle, there's a feeling of connection, and then if someone withdraws from it, it would be some people would have difficulty with that withdrawal of connection.
Yeah, you got it. Um, but I'll add to it, that it's not just withdrawal. I mean, people can also get passive aggressive or confrontational, and then that kind of wobbles the dynamics yet again, and I don't think that, I think, you know, you can make the argument that as time goes on, any upset or any victim perpetrator roles get worked through eventually. But I think for that time being those roles are elevated, those are more prominent, actually. And, yeah, I think
so in the short term, you're getting into a dynamic that it could be the victim perpetrator dynamic could actually get accentuated, and you're seeing it well, over time. There's sort of this there's this aspect of over time, maybe it unravels or not, but in the short term, it could kind of get explode in a sense, it could actually get a lot worse. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I feel wow. Yeah, I'm, I'm the optimist. I guess I see that over time, if if people have enough trust in the empathy circle, that they at least for myself, I know that given enough time, I will be able to work through every anything with anyone is sort of my you know, framework, it's so far it's been pretty accurate. So I did come from so that mindset, so a certain trust in so that empathic relationship and dynamic for working things through
so you're, you're saying like you have an optimistic view and and part of that might come from having experienced empathy circles over time that that as time goes on, you've been able to work through anything that might emerge between you and anyone else.
Yeah, and the the circle can become knockdown drag out. Just total chaos, total pain. I've seen that too. And that's, it's, yeah, it's just sort of part of it. I mean, it can just sort of it could possibly explode. If it wasn't, it depends on the participants and facilitators, but it can get, yeah, really painful. And a lot of that a lot of stuff comes up a lot of pain, a lot of anger, a lot of resentment, a lot of you know, all these different feelings can definitely arise.
So you're saying that there are some empathy circles where it can become rather chaotic, you know, lots of pain, lots of anger, you know, all sorts of things can get kicked up.
So the, you know, so I do mediation, right. So conflict, mediation, and using the empathy circle, you know, process. And so you get stuff, like people just really angry with each other, you know, they, they get easily triggered, they don't want to reflect back with the other person says, I want to get out of here, I'm not gonna deal with this. And they're like, you know, in the pain, and it is the empathy, the listening to that pain, and that whatever is going on for that person that starts reconnecting them. So it's, I don't know, that sort of avoiding that. I mean, there's the sense of we can avoid it, and everybody's avoiding each other. I just don't see that that's sort of a solution. You know, either. I mean, if if that's kind of the alternative, maybe there's other alternatives, other structures, other processes there that could be implemented. But I do say that the that we do in the empathy circle is kind of this core. Yeah, that other layers could be added to
see, you're saying that there are moments where people don't want to reflect other what someone else said, and that's part of your role as a mediator is to, I guess, stop the circle and talk to that person to try to, I'm adding that, but it's to address what happened for that person so that they can get in contact back in contact with themselves and whatever caused them to disconnect from themselves. And that you you as such, don't believe that avoidances is an answer.
Yeah, very much so. So the dynamic. So. So I see that the empathy of the dynamic of the empathy circle is sort of a foundational practice. And you can add layers to, to address metaphorically, it's like a container and empathic container, and how to deal with those difficulties that you're talking about. So one thing is, is I'll do a pre circle with each of the participants who are who are already highly charged in a conflict that come into the circle. So I just go, and I listened to them for half an hour or an hour to say, what's on your mind, let me I'll just kind of listen to you, I don't give any advice, I just sort of give them an empathy bath, you know, for an hour, just hearing everything that's coming up. And then they start developing some trust, like, oh, somebody heard me, they get a little calmer. So they have more capacity, that when they come into the circle, there's a little bit more calmness in the dynamic for each of the parties, right? If there's five, six people who are in conflict, or related to the conflict, they've each been heard. So then they come into the empathy circle, they've had sort of that pre circle, that empathy bath.
So you're describing how you do conflict mediation, and that you start by speaking with each person individually and kind of give them an empathy bath by like hearing them out for like half an hour. And that really kind of calms their nervous system such that when they get into the empathy circle, I can kind of, I guess things go more smoothly.
Yeah, if you know, if the stress level is 100, maybe it goes down to 70, or 60, or something, still a lot of stress there. But it might be keeping them from going to 90 where things blow up, right. So there's sort of a dynamic of we're, we're genuinely trying to calm things down. It's the empathy, the listening, the sort of calming things down that people have enough capacity where they can kind of stay with with the process.
They might come in with a 90 hit stress level at 100. And you kind of by listening, bring them down to 70. But that's at least to the point where they can kind of participate in the circle.
Yeah. And then another thing is what I'm seeing as needed is sort of developing trust and empathy, like from kindergarten, like if, if people had been learning these empathy skills, you know, from earliest age had seen it modeled in their family had seen it modeled in the school had seen politicians doing empathic listening and working things out, it would have again taken that, that 90, you know, potential, it would have taken it down to about 40. or something, you know, people have developed trust by having the experience in the empathy circle, they would have developed trust and experience in the process. So, again, that would have helped to strengthen the container.
Near saying, like, if you start very early in people's lives that can make it so that they don't show up to stuff like this with a 70 stress level, but they maybe even are down to a 40, that they're kind of have that capacity to calm themselves in a way that makes empathy more possible.
Yeah. And instead of the things getting to a 90 To begin with, they would have had the tools that when things are 10 20% stress level or conflict level, they would have already been starting to work on the problems and have the tools to head it off. And there's a cut, especially if the culture supported it. So you know, we're kind of going against the grain in the culture, you know, because it's not exactly supporting, doing, you know, this empathic relationship and dynamic.
Mm hmm. So you're clarifying that if you start early in kindergarten, like even more, so it enables them to kind of have role models within the culture and but starting it now, with adults, it's sort of like, you got to go against the grain a bit, because this isn't how people have been raised. Or it's not what they see. Even now. So
yeah, exactly. feel fully heard there. Yeah.
Um, yeah, so I appreciate that. It's, it's not part of the culture. Mmm hmm. Yeah, I appreciate that. It's not part of the culture, I think that that what that means is that is there's like a lot of scar tissue for people and that doing this is is impactful. It's like
you know, it's like what you're describing with some of those empathy circles that are chaotic, and there's lots of anger and what whatever fear that gets stirred up and and like, as long as they stay with it that gets worked through, I totally get and understand that that would be the case. So I'll just start with that, I guess,
if you're starting off saying the culture is not empathic service that dynamic they have to deal with, and that you're seeing that if people did stay with it, you know, over time that you see it that could could work or be relevant? Or if I got that, correct me
Yeah, there was another level to it, it was like there's this scar tissue, you got to get Pat, because they were raised in this kind of more avoidant way, if you don't have the tools to deal with. If you don't have the empathic tools, kind of baked into your, you know, neurological makeup or something, then it's like you have this, then I think people kind of grow up, even if they're relatively secure with a little bit of like, some walls, you know. And so beginning to interact in a different way, I think can can open them up to themselves and other people in a way that might not be totally ready for.
So the culture is not empathic peels may be grown up with in an empathic way, that they've developed a lot of scar tissue around that. And they've protected themselves by putting up walls. So if you take down those walls, you start addressing that scar tissue. They're going to have trouble maybe navigating that space without maybe adequate support or something there.
And so.
I mean, I agree with you that the the answer is not to do it. Is the answer is not. Not it is. The answer still involves doing it in some way. But I think there's a lot of opportunities to, for people to not feel heard. And for them to come into circles and replete, repeat old patterns. And so I'm personally, kind of, for the last week or two been kind of returning back to that thought of like, but how does that, you know, and I do believe in kind of the basic goodness of most humans, you know, to kind of show up and help each other work things out over time. But how does how did those moments get mitigated is what my mind's been whirling around a little bit.
So your mind's been whirling? We you starting off with the premise that you can sort of see that there's sort of a basic goodness that people want to work things out is a is a bit, that's the way but your mind is whirling around. Let me see if I that. Yeah, I'm not quite sure what it is, there's a problem there that I think you're seeing that I'm not quite clear.
I think the human mind is really complicated. So if there's some pain that gets kicked up anywhere that it's not addressed, then it goes back underground. And even if it seems like everything's okay, even if it seems to have been worked through, it could have an impact that maybe you or the other person doesn't see. And so I'm trying to, I'm wondering about how does that get addressed? Or maybe it doesn't? In which case? I don't know. I don't know. That's, I think the gist of it.
Okay. So if you're in an empathy circle, someone has some pain, they share some of the pain, but it kind of doesn't really get resolved. And it just goes back down and gets covered up again, and you're having some concerns about that it is kind of just being hidden again, or kind of covered up and not is not really worked out. And, and it's still there, and
right. And so if it's okay, and so if we're talking about empathy and active listening, when we're talking about what is empathy using the empathy circle as a guide.
I mean, I don't know, that part feels unresolved. To me. It's hard for me to record reconcile that part of it. Because I think that within the context of an empathy circle, things can easily be hidden. Or maybe I'm trying, I'm trying that thought out, it feels like things can easily be hidden. So, um, so yeah, I don't know what to do with that. Pardon?
Yes. So you're saying that within an empathy circle, that things can be hidden? Like if people aren't sharing everything? of where they are? So it could be hidden? And how do you deal with parts of life that remain hidden? Or are hidden in you can't empathize with something if it is hidden, I guess.
Mm hmm. So or there could be a rupture that just doesn't that just passes by everyone and doesn't get? And then I don't know, um, you know, maybe that's life. But that feels like that should kind of be a, you know, woven into our discussion about, you know, what is empathy? And how does it show up in the circle? Because empathy seems like it's about really hearing someone completely. And yet, there's these moments in the empathy circle when people are really not heard. And so how does that? I don't know. I mean, how does that how does that get worked through? How does that get addressed? How does that get incorporated into a definition of empathy?
So in an empathy circle, there are times when people don't feel heard? And how do you incorporate a definition of empathy where there's not like a deep going to the core of someone listening sort of process what is so how does that it sort of fit in with a definition of empathy?
That might be here that took it a little bit further than what I was saying. But you know, that might be it is that how deep of the of listening is possible in an empathy circle and does that? Yeah, I think I'm done. I think I feel heard.
Okay. Yeah. So you're just looking at how deep does the listening go in an empathy circle? And so yeah. And okay, well, let me see. Yeah. So fax me a lot of collect here thinking about all that. So I think part of the the empathy is a process. So it's like, in feeling. And it's and there's in a relationship, there's two parts. One is, the more you can express, be open and transparent, the deeper the empathy goes. So in part of a, of an empathic dynamic or relationship, there's the sharing of oneself, that kind of helps with the The Empathic relationships, the more open and transparent. I can be in sharing, you know, what's happening in my psyche, or in my body, the easier it is for you to, you know, go more deeply into sense into more deeply. And more honestly, or more accurately, in myself.
Mm hmm. So you're saying partially, it's on? It's, it's the fault. I think what I hear you saying is, like, partially, it's on the person that doesn't feel heard that they need to be transparent. And so more transparent they are, I think this is the claim you're making, the more likely they're to be heard and understood?
Well, there's two parts of it, the more authentic they can be more open and transparent, the easier it's going to be for the other person to empathize with them deeply. And secondly, if they don't feel heard, there is a responsibility that saying, I You say I, for example, you said that reflection went a little bit farther than I was really saying, right? So there is a sort of a responsibility on the speaker, to get hurt to their satisfaction, you know, don't put it on somebody else, you didn't feel hurt, because you're getting you're going to get hurt to your satisfaction here so that there is your responsibility to,
yes, don't put it on someone else. Like you get your
take the responsibility, because I'll keep reflecting back until you feel hurt to your satisfaction. If you're not feeling heard. It's you know, it, you're the one that's given up, unless the time runs out. Right, then you got the five minutes that we have, but we're here we're we don't have any time limit.
Yeah, so you're saying, you know, someone doesn't feel heard that it's really their responsibility to keep trying, like, you got to just keep at it. And like, that's point well taken, like it needs that you're saying that the person needs to kind of keep in the game. DON'T WITHDRAW.
So yeah. So and then the other part of it is the trust level is for me to be able to share you know who I am what's going on for me I have to kind of trust you to kind of go deeper and to share a deeper aspect. And I think that there's a trust building and I'm not saying you got to share your deepest darkest you know, soul, you know, I don't want to put that pressure on anybody just like start wherever you are. But my feeling or sense is that over time trust develops, right that it's like oh, I keep getting hurt. I keep getting hurt. I know I'll be heard you know, even if there's stuff comes up I'll still get heard. The person won't withdraw or whatever. So there is that I think it came up in our call to on Friday with Lou about the importance you know how trust comes up?
Yeah, so you're saying that trust is a big part of this the more you trust someone the more transparent that you can be? And so that's the more you can trust someone like not to I guess withdraw or surprise
or even be critical or judgmental or you know, kind of go for the jugular or something, you know,
critical or judgmental Yeah.
Even though even though you can in the empathy circle you can go for the jugular but firstly Firstly, if they empathize with the person to their satisfaction, then you can go to the spread the jug you it's kind of funny, but
it's possible to you could do it. It's an option in the empathy circle, but you have to first listen to someone.
Do Yeah. The other aspect is a dynamic that is just not I mean with, I have noticed that if it's just two people in an empathy circle, that things kind of stagnate over time. So having the four people and having empathy circles with multiple people, different groups, the each person gives a different reflection. And there's something very supportive about that. It's not like, hey, just getting one reflection from one person, but I can sort of compare. And even in a conflict mediation, you know, you can get a reflection from the person you think that's gonna, like, really kind of get you the, you know, understand you the best. So that that's another aspect is the expansion of the empathic circle, or the empathic relationship, that adds some kind of a strength and groundedness to it.
Yeah, you're saying having multiple people is really helpful, so that things don't stagnate, because you can get multiple reflections on the same topic.
And I think that, you know, finally, I think that if Joe Ridley, and you know, his group would sort of understand it, they would actually be kind of supportive of it, because it is actually addressing their concerns, which I have the same concerns, you know, kind of enmeshment, that, you know, I have to kind of give up who I am, because I'm being judged and all that kind of, but in the empathy circle, you know, if somebody is kind of going, you know, into their own victimization, I reflect back what I'm hearing, but then I can say, hey, I think you're just being a victim, you know, I can, I can call him on it, or whatever, and then they'll reflect back and I can kind of express that. And so I think that if they understood the dynamics of the empathy circle, and relational empathy, I think it could, I think they would sort of support it, they would understand because it is it is supporting there it is addressing I think their concerns.
So you're, you're saying, you feel like the empathy circle addresses their concerns, because in the empathy circle, you can reflect back if you feel like someone's kind of being a victim, or if they get into victimhood, and kind of addresses their concern?
Yeah. And that would be a judgment. On my part, if I was doing that, it's not the most empathic, you know, the most empathic response would be, oh, I'm feeling kind of muddled. When I, when I hear this, do I be speaking from my own felt experience. So that would be a deeper sense of me sharing kind of empathically what's going on for me, but it doesn't rule out that people can come where they are, if it's judgmental, or whatever, that they can still be judgmental, and have their judgments heard. So it's not that the judgment saying the person's a victim, judging them for being a victim is like, you know, something great to do, if they could be speaking more empathically more from their own felt experience that I think would help with the, the relation with the dynamics of the relationship.
I don't know if I got all of it. But I think I think what you're saying is that that it's not the most empathic thing to come to an what's supposed to be an empathic encounter with judgment. But even if you do, the empathy circle is supposed to receive you and kind of actively listen and state back whatever those judgments might be.
Yeah. And then hopefully, my hope is that over time, people will go deeper into their felt experience, share more deeply, instead of sharing their judgments, that they'll share their own personal experience, and then I've seen that happen, so. So that's why I don't, I don't like the thing, the aspect of oh, you can't judge people, you have to talk a certain way, you have to be constricted. So I, and that's, I think that's one of the criticisms or concerns that Joe has, is you gotta, you know, contort yourself to, you know, to speak a certain way to people and they don't appreciate that and I don't appreciate it either. So.
So you're you you agree with Joe and that you don't believe that it's right to kind of constrict somebody's speech such that they have to speak only in a certain type of way to other people that you know, all you know, people are free to say whatever they want in an empathy circle, and you think that's important.
Yeah, I guess I have to make a point that as they do that, as they, as they vent their frustrations and their angers which usually the judgments are once they get those vented, once they get heard, they kind of move past it, you know, and they start Becoming more real and more authentic. So it's not like I'm saying, hey, let's all have judgment circles. It's like, no, it's like, let that just pass and we'll get to something deeper.
See, you're saying that that eventually those judgments and the anger that accompanies it kind of dissipates over time? And that? Yeah,
yeah. That's the essence I feel heard.
Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I, I think that I think empathy circles are a wonderful thing, as I've said, you know, in the past many times, and that they're a good counter argument to how we ordinarily interact with one another. Hmm. Let's see, but parts of empathy that are come up within the empathy circles, um, yeah, it's hard. It's like, it's like, I'm seeing like the figure in the ground of the empathy circles, like there's, there are. There's a lot of, well, so people go from listening to speaking. And so it's, you know, they try on the listening. And they might be they people can listen to varying degrees, or take it in. And then they switched to speaking. And some people choose to empathize with what's been said through their turn speaking, and some people choose to speak, to get more empathy. And there's nothing wrong with either one of those. But I've noticed that people approach people have much have different approaches to the task, and I. And so I think both of those could be empathic activities, both the act of listening and then the speaking, or or not, I don't know.
So you're seeing some benefits of the empathy circle. But sounds like you have sort of questions about it, too. And one of the questions or concerns or sort of looking at it is that when it's people's turns to speak, they can reflect back, or they can build on something that someone else had said, or they can speak from their own, just kind of what's alive for them. And you're just kind of have some curiosity, wondering about that dynamic. And yeah, I think you're just sort of wondering about if there's something there.
Yeah, I'm just I'm trying to kind of recenter back to the task, in light of kind of my experiences of the circles and you know, what, what about that? Can we can we learn about empathy? And what about that? What are those two parts represent the listening? And then the speaking? I guess, is what I'm thinking.
No, I see. So you're what you're trying to do is tie back the definitions with the empathy circle. And there's the aspect of there's the speaking aspect, and the listening aspect and sort of looking at the dynamics of how those two roles are happening.
Yeah. Yeah, and yeah, and I wonder about also kind of doing that with strangers, versus doing that with people you've come to know. And that's a whole different dimension. So yeah. And
so what I'm hearing there is you're kind of just wondering about different dimensions of it. There's like the dimension of the speaker and the listener, and then how they're choosing to do what they're doing. There's the dimension of being with family or friends, people, you know, or a stranger. So there's all these sort of different dimensions to it, and you're just sort of wanting to explore those different dimensions.
Um, yeah, um, I don't think I have too much more to say about that. I think that, um, you know, either either, you know, you're someone that just needs to be empathized with and you come to the circle and you kind of get what you need, or I think that yeah, I don't know. I think it can kind of get a little bit complicated. Maybe Maybe it's easier with strangers? I don't really I don't really know.
Yeah, I think maybe it gets you're not so sure if it gets more or less complicated with with strangers,
or with people you come to know, or with
people that you've come to known or that you know, or,
um, yeah, like, there's just like a lot of dynamics that come out in empathy circle. So it's a lot too. You know, you don't want to kind of overthink the dynamics that come out, because it can be too much I think or overwhelming are. So you know? Yeah, um, but yeah, in terms of like, what we can know about empathy from the circles, I think there's a lot. But there's a lot that can also block it. And so I tend to think I've always found it helpful to arrive at a definition of empathy for what gets in the way of it.
For you a good way to come to the definition is to see what blocks the empathy, and that kind of helps with with the finding it,
huh? Yeah. Yeah. I think I feel heard.
Okay. Yeah, I liked looking at the blocks. Because in a sense, I see what Joe was talking about hers are actually a whole list of blocks that he's at. And the problem with the blocks is, for a block to happen. It starts with empathy. Right? aside, if I have sympathy, start feeling sorry, as being about me feeling sorry for you. I had to empathize with you to begin with, right to listen to what's going on for you. But then I maybe step into sympathy mode. And then I sort of like then it kind of like blocks my empathy because I've shifted, but it did. So the sympathy and the empathy were sort of intertwined.
Right? Yeah. So you're saying there's certain blocks such as sympathy could be a block to empathy bait, but even though it's a block, you would have had to have started empathizing in order to, to reach that block of sympathy. And oftentimes, those two are intertwined.
And two, if there's an issue of enmeshment, I'm starting to listen to you. And I'm slowly getting more and mashed, you know, kind of losing self other distinction, there is an empathy and loss of self other distinction kind of happening at the same time, too. So it's, it's all getting sort of mixed in together. So it's, it could have, it could have started with an empathic state. And then someone maybe like Joe is seeing that empathy is the reason for it, versus seeing that it's the second, it's the secondary step of the enmeshment of the losing of self, that is kind of the problem, let's not throw out empathy, let's like address a measurement, you know, a loss of self.
Right, so you're saying, you know, let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater, like the enmeshment. The loss of self is because it started with empathy, and it's just part of a process.
And then the other one is, in another block, and I'd be interested in hearing the blocks you're seeing is, you know, if you're getting angry, and then I start getting angry to write I stopped listening to you, I get kind of carried up in, in my own anger, which somehow is triggered by your anger. And you know, if it's emotional contagion, or it's like, I'm so tired of you being angry, I'm getting getting angry, right? Kind of, I mean, there's a lot of reasons that anger could happen, not just emotional contagion. And then. So it starts with empathy again, but then it goes into these other, you know, states too, and again, that empathy and that those emotions are sort of mixed in together.
So if you have an empathy, then you're more like, you're more open to emotional contagion, and taking on somebody else's even anger, and then you fall into anger. And then of course, can't empathize from there.
Yeah. So I can go down the list. You know, I've been trying to make a list of all these sort of blocks, which I'm curious what blocks you see that they have the blocks tend to have sort of empathy as a component, and then they kind of shift out of it. And the criticisms seem to be because people aren't seeing that shift is sort of like the balls, you know, that one ball hits, one ball hits, and the first ball and the last ball was a lot of balls in between, they're kind of hitting and can we look at the balls that are kind of hitting, you know that and I just find problem, he kind of misses the pieces in between, it's like suddenly got empathy. You got this and empathy is at fault. Yeah.
So you're kind of wondering if there's a way to look at when empathy becomes emotional contagion to better parse out which part is empathy, and which part isn't? Yeah,
yeah. And that's why I was hoping to have a dialogue, because I think it's kind of a dialogue, you know, with people like Joe, that I get a lot out of, I just really enjoy it, because we can, you know, talk about these, these nuances. And add the relational aspect is like, another aspect is like, Oh, it's you empathizing, you getting lost you doing this, it's all very, you are the individualistic instead of saying, Hey, this is a relationship. And it's not like you're getting lost in the other person's, like, the other person is nice if they reflect back and hear you, and then you're having a relation empathic relationship. So that empathic relationship part gets lost in the definition to be dissolved, like you getting lost, so, or whatever, you know, yeah. So
yeah, so yeah, so a lot gets lost in those definitions like blooms definition or Blum talks about against empathy. And part of the problem you're you're you're seeing in these sort of publications is that they're all about the individual and they're not about the knee empathic relationship.
Yeah. And if you bring in the empathic relationship, things look differently. Right. It's not like an MPC death is not like to my chimpanzee, is that there's a shortage of empathy in the relationship. It's not a mutually empathic relationship. So it's like, suddenly, it looks different from a different from that perspective of the relationship. And it is kind of reality, we are in relationships. And I just, you know, it's like, maybe it's the, the culture, like it's all individualistic, you know, but the reality is that we are there is this perspective of the relationship and to bring that in, addresses a lot of the criticisms, it seems to me.
So yeah, you're saying the relationship, thinking about it. relationally addresses the criticisms about empathy.
Yeah. So I feel hard. So I noticed the time so I don't want to keep you past your time, too. If I just want to be sorry for a little bit or up to you just holler what?
Yeah, we can just debrief. That's fine, right. Yeah. Yeah. I thought it was a good discussion, I. Um, yeah, I guess I have a lot of thoughts about empathy circles. And I am finding it a little more difficult today to think about it in terms of parsing out the topology of empathy. So yeah, that's where I'm at.
Well, I find that enjoyable to kind of work through the I don't know, what is it that the threads, you know, because I kind of keep working through the threads, and it just kind of over time, creates more clarity and sort of addresses some of these issues. These topics that come up, and yeah, I kind of like to that of expanding the dialogue like, like Joe and bloom so far, they won't talk to me right in, which is like, hey, let's have a dialogue here. Let's talk about these things. Let's work it through. Let's record it, let's have it publicly available. So I find it really enjoyable and helpful. And it's kind of fun to me.
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. No, there's been a lot of insights that come from this. So I'm glad that we had the opportunity to talk again.
Okay, and I made you're tired from all sounds like all the stuff you're doing. So that's late for you. And yeah, sometimes it's better to do it in the morning when everybody's fresh.
Yeah, I wouldn't be probably fresher in the morning. But yeah, it just seems, I mean, I think that there may be there may be people that ride out against empathy have, have not so great experiences with trying to form empathic relationships or kind of having that experience of mutual mutual empathy. Maybe they don't get out of it what other people do, I don't know. That's just a guess. It seems like it would have to be true if you know, I'm gonna have to take a look at that book, I think. Which book again, empathy,
I can boil it down to one thing is, its emotional contagion, it's a lot of words, it's kind of like the book is like throwing spaghetti, you know, against the, against the wall, let's see what stick with. So all these criticisms, the core is, is that your therapist gets angry, you get angry. That's his definition of basically. And it's like, I don't even consider that empathy. So it's like, it's a lot of reading is kind of like my sense is, like garbage in garbage out, right? If you make a premise, it's like a faulty premise. And you can build up a whole, you know, framework, conceptual framework, but if the underlying premise is like, I actually agree, you know, I agree with the concerns he has. It's just, it's just not what I'm calling empathy. You know,
I think there's a big developmental piece here. So I know you've already acknowledged that, that there's a developmental piece, but I think there, there has to be I mean, yeah.
That's your friends to wall. Preston, have you seen that the Russian doll model of empathy, I think it's sort of based on the developmental thing, starting with childhood. And there's like, another layer that gets built in there sort of layers that get built on each other, and they kind of define it. And so I think that's what sort of what you're addressing there is that yeah, at different age levels, you're developing more of these, these skills and capacities.
He's a social, he's a neuroscientist, right from
France, Wallace primatologists, he's at Emory University, and he studies sort of biology and he's really focused on chimpanzees. Oh, okay. In research on chimpanzees.
I have read one of his articles, but I don't recall the specifics of it. I decided that in my dissertation, but there's, yeah, um, but I do want to look at that literature, because I think it's interesting. I mean, it's interesting to think about, I think people with different developmental levels of empathy, experience empathy circles very differently. Probably. I wonder if you feel that way as well.
Well, everybody experiences the circle in have a different experience with I don't know about developmental levels. I mean, if somebody's a psychopath, or if there are autistic and don't have certain skills, or I'm not quite sure what you mean, in terms of, if a five year old were to do it, versus a 30 year old, or what do you kind of mean, there?
Well, that would be interesting, but I mean, that would be interesting to in and of itself, but I mean, like, I tend to the way I see human beings is that, like, even adults the same way or a different, you know, maybe, oh, yeah. All right,
let's definitely have different mindsets and sort of, I mean, somebody, somebody could say something to one person, they'd be triggered by it, they'd be upset by it, and the other person would just roll off. Right? If they wouldn't, their makeup effects, how they're able to be present with with, with what's coming at them.
I think forgiveness has a place in empathy. Because without it, you know, the ruptures kind of put people out of the game.
Mm hmm.
Or like this. You know, faith in in kind of the basic goodness of the people around them, I think has a lot to do a lot like that. That is like part of the same component of forgiveness, like forgiveness, faith, like all this hope, like there's that maybe it could all fall under the umbrella of like resilience, but there's this, this belief that it's going to be okay, like, for all these reasons, and some people don't have that shored up, you know,
that's my position. It'll be okay. Just keep
just keep emphasizing, it'll kind of work out. Plus, let's kind of streak that in society. Yeah.
Well, that's pretty cool. Like maybe you play that role for everyone. Maybe you have enough of it, maybe.
But I do get what you You're saying you're saying there's sort of this, people are bringing their sort of their worldview and their makeup to the empathy circle, and that makeup is going to affect, you know, their premises, their worldview, the things they believe in, are going to affect the dynamics. And, you know, when they if there is a conflict, for example, if there is a conflict, and they, they, you talk through it, at some point, you really hear somebody deeply about why they did what they did. Because I Oh, I get what you I see why you did, I'm going to forgive you or something, you know, so there is, there is sort of that unraveling and how that the listening is sort of the space, but something else is happening there for that not that conflict to unravel. There's forgiveness, so there's seeing somebody else's needs or understanding, sometimes just Oh, I understand why you did what you did, I would do the same thing. If I was in your situation. So then that kind of resolves the conflict. So I think that's kind of where you're going is, yeah, that that makeup that people?
Yeah, but I Yeah, but I think it's the time before that, that aha moment where you're saying, Oh, I get why you did what you did. But that time before it requires patience, Faith resilience, like all this stuff. I mean, I've had people, you know, there's patients that like, terminate treatment and never come back. And you see, you figure, you know, you might know exactly the moment why they're not coming back, and you have faith, and we can work through this. And it's like, you know, and so, you know, so that in under your definition of empathy is like, well, will, does that mean, we didn't have an empathic mutual empathy going on? Or not enough? Or, you know, what? What was maybe going on? Did that mean, they didn't have enough empathy built up for me? Or trust in me? Or, you know, or the therapist or whatever? I don't know. Yeah. Interesting.
All right, there's a farther the cultural aspect to that, hey, the culture isn't really supporting this maybe explicitly, clearly. And if like Oprah and the president, were all doing empathy circles, it's like he would, he would take people from the resistance or whatever, 90%, I think, come down to maybe 40. So you'd have more space. So there's a whole container to be built around supporting empathy, it seems to me, you know, yeah. Because people are new, they just withdrawal has been the thing they've just been doing all the time, they feel good, hey, if I just withdrawal, I just feel safer. And so they just have that practice so deeply, that it's easier just to withdraw from like therapy or something?
Are they Yeah, are they, you know, explode and get very confrontational, you know, or any number of things? Yeah. Um, but I'm kind of getting clear about my ideas, too, because I do think that, that confrontation, and withdrawal has to be built in or baked into empathy somehow. So like, when you're talking about the listening and the talking, like, is there some way in which those, though, so withdrawal and confrontation is spoken to? Because there's all these dynamics that happen? And what if someone in the circle says something like? You know, I'm having a really hard time right now, or, you know, I, I disagree with how things are going right now. And then what if everyone else when is there time to talk doesn't say a peep about that, you know, or what about conversely, if everybody else comes to talk, and then it's very, like passive aggressive about, you know, what that person has said, you know, the toxicity that was brought in, so where is the where is whereas the empathy there? I mean, is it just in the, we're gonna listen to each other, and there's, there's bound to be material that is related among all four of us that we can then kind of, we'll just keep talking and it'll get, and I think that does happen. Like, it feels like a very high percentage of times, like night, you know, 95% of the time or something.
Yeah, that's my senses. You just keep listening and it sort of unravels. So if somebody is like, totally pissed off. You know, he said, I'm hearing you're really pissed off. You're really frustrated. You're feeling really angry, and you want to kill me. Is there a love to kill me? Is there more You know? What else you got?
Yeah. Yeah, no, I mean, I see how that would be. But if the other person has to say something, then I mean, it really has to, it's almost like it would be cool. If there was a consent form before every, you got to say something, you know, if you if you get, hmm, you know, this, like, kind of like what you said it's sort of on the speaker, or it's sort of on the person that feels it, that there's going to be moments that are very disturbing to you on maybe a deep level, like, as hard as it is, you have to try to put words to that, or,
yeah, sometimes people don't write it put words to it, like, you know, I was with my nephews and niece, they were they're like, you know, six and seven years old. And so they had made some popsicles, you know, in the freezer. And my niece, who is like six years old, had taken the popsicle of my nephew, who's seven, and he's like, very, very sensitive. And he was like, really upset that she eaten his pops. And he ran to his bed. And he was just laying on his bed. Like, he was not going to talk to anybody. And then my, my sister in law said, Edward, here's a project for you. Come deal with this. And I went over and I said, I said, Hey, Teddy, are you feeling upset? I was like, Are you like, gonna talk? Right? He's not gonna say anything. So I said, Teddy, I hear I understand. You don't want to say anything? Is that right?
And so I just, I just kind of list I just put I stayed present with them. And then the the nice came in Annie, you know? And she was and I started doing a little empathy with him and her. And then, you know, I did reflect back a few times. And then somehow, I don't know, somehow he just didn't want us. And then I then I said, Well, what would you like to have happen? And eventually, he said, I want her to make me a new popsicle. And I said, Okay, you want her to make a new popsicle. For you, Annie, what did you hear Him say? He wants a new popsicle. And she's okay. And then he jumped up, they both make a popsicle, but it was the exact same thing is like, he was not going to talk to anybody who had his arms crossed, or his mouth closed. And he was the most he would do is shake his his head. I think that's a, you know, extrapolate that to an adult, you know?
Exactly. That. Yeah. At the end of the day, most people want the same thing.
Yeah, they want their popsicle.
Yeah. But so yeah, so like, how did they in the empathy circle, you can't really leave. So that's the good thing about the format is that there has, there's going to be a time to talk whether you want to or not, you know, so like for Teddy, there would have been a time that he would have had to say something so
well, some people in a conflict, they, you know, they do leave so they can get up and go. So there's no nothing stopping them. I did have a conflict where my sister in law and my brother were in a conflict. And my sister in law is in a lot of pain. So she shared and I reflected back her pain that it was my turn to speak. And I found my brothers always very quiet. So I spoke to him. And she got really mad. She says, I'm the one in pain, you should be speaking to me. It's my choice. And everybody's in pain, you know? So even if they don't show it, and then she just laid into me, no rules. No, nothing. Just, this is bullshit, you're full of bullshit. This is this is like, and then it was like, No way and I stuck out you really think is bullshit. And I could not get her into, you know, back into the process. And I said, Well, I'm here to hold the process of mutual empathy. And I understand that you don't want to do that anymore. So I'm going to leave, because I'm here to have this empathic relationship of mutual listening. And it was only and I was ready. I was like, ready to push the button? We weren't going to be talking anymore. I don't know into the future. And I think she got this threat. I mean, that it was like okay, okay, I'll do it. So she kind of gave in at that point. But so those another dynamics that hey, the relationship this time Being empathic, I'm going to leave because this is not what I signed up for, I signed up to be here in a mutually empathic relationship. So that's like another dynamic.
But she would have argued that you that you were the one that stopped being empathy, empathic when you started talking to the other person, right?
She, yeah, her argument was that I should have selected her because she was in pain. But the rules of the empathy circle is I can speak to whoever I wish.
complicated,
but yeah, I bring, I want to bring him into the relationship because I thought he was kind of out there, he tends to withdraw. And so I thought, Oh, I'm going to bring him into the relationship into the discussion and that really upset her. Yeah, what was that point? You're about to say something that was really hard to hear?
Well, the empathy circles a way to equalize to object to bring objectivity into a very messy or to try. But when people's emotions are running high, nothing feels like objective, nothing feels like. Everything feels like it's emotionally driven and not. Not coming from a place of discernment.
Yeah. And that gets pretty intense. Like, it's just it's there's a lot of constriction, a lot of, like pain and a lot of like, it's, it's kind of a toxic feels sort of toxic in a certain way.
Yeah. Well, I mean, it sounds like it's a valiant effort to try to do that with family. I can't imagine how hard that must be. You know, because there's, you're just, you're in it. So it's a different than hosting one, I would think. Yeah. Or even though you are but yeah, I would imagine it's different than hosting one of the cafes or something. Yeah.
Yeah. Somebody said that you that's like the hardest is the family.
So I would think, yeah, I tried that. But
sometimes you need if it's a real conflict, it's good to have an outside person holding the circle. Yeah. Which is another key part to strengthen the camp container is going to do the crease circles, but also have someone from the outside come help facilitate something like that.
That makes sense. Yeah. Well, yeah, it seems like it's a way to strengthen your emotional regulation. And in addition to empathy, you strengthen your capacity for emotion regulation, through the empathy circles, not just not just you, but everyone like, yeah,
so process for group motional regulation, in a sense.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I can only imagine how things must go sometimes. And so it's a little bit, you know, I guess I, yeah, I respect that you spend time helping people in that way, I think that that could get really probably overwhelming at times.
That's another part it does get overwhelming. And that's where the pre circle comes in. So the facilitator who's the mediator gets an empathy circle, or an empathic listening for themselves to before going in. So if I was going to go doing a meeting, doing a mediation, you know, if you were like, fellow mediator, circle, I can go to you and just get heard, like, like half an hour, an hour and a half, I'm really concerned about this, this is a really difficult, you know, probably it might blow up, I'm not sure what's going to happen. And you would just be listening to me. And it's that listening to me, that kind of gives me that little bit more resilience when I go in to the circle, and then afterwards to have the debrief. So you sort of have layers of empathy around the conflict.
Interesting. Yeah. That's amazing to that, that provides that much of a buffer, I get it, but it's just, I haven't broken it down quite in that way.
And they have co facilitation. So you have two facilitators go in and and they can kind of support each other too. So that's another so I guess there's a concept of the empty I see the empathy circle, sort of this core sort of dynamic, you can keep adding pieces around it to strengthen and strengthen, strengthen that dynamic. So that's sort of the visualization or the map that I have.
Yeah, I kind of had I had a kind of fantasy about, like, if I had if, like, there were people in a group practice, maybe all in the same building, seeing patients, and then all those patients would meet for empathy circles like summer. So that you had the holding environment of the, you know, every session per week, you can talk if something came up in those circles, but they would have that. Also, every week. Yeah.
Yeah, you came up with a bunch of ideas before to about anybody can reflect or, you know, I remember you had kind of different ideas of how do you sort of shift the dynamics, you know? Yeah. Yeah, I'm glad to try those things out. Yeah, definitely, you know, love to hear any of those ideas. So, it's also the therapists getting together because they're the ones are all, you know, high suicide rates and stuff, too. So they need a lot of support to to hopefully they're getting
forgotten being heard. Yeah. Um, but yeah, I was thinking about, I was wondering, like, how does this How does that get addressed any ruptures that happen in the empathy circle, you know, and me, you, you have a lot of experience. So you've seen them get addressed, and you've seen them get worked through over time. But that was one thing I was thinking that could do it, you know, on a more immediate way, is like that, that very day, or like later on that day, they had a session, they could talk about it, and maybe they could address the core of it in a way that maybe they can't, you know, because if it's something that say they got triggered in a way that they don't even understand, you know, that it's free? I don't know, I just had this reaction. And I don't know why. Well, let's, let's talk about it, you know, and I think that does happen for people. You know, it's like, why was that? So upsetting what the person said? Or did wasn't that? I don't see how that was that upsetting? You know, and? And then so the, the, the psychologist or therapist could then trace it back? Well, what, what do you associate with that? What? Did anyone ever do that in the past? What was it like what you know? So that way it gets addressed? But it does? Yeah, I think it does get addressed in empathy circles over time, but it seems like in a different way, it gets addressed.
I know, in one of the trainings, someone was in a circle, and, and somehow they didn't feel heard or understood in it. And they had had a lot of levels of stress in their, during their, their day, I mean, just levels of stress. So you come into the circle, you've already got this high level of stress. And there was something that kind of like, just kind of triggered it. And then in the, in the actual report back, there was like tears about oh, this was like, I don't know, if I'm good at this, or you know, self judgment. But then afterwards, the person started holding circles, I mean, empathy, buddy calls with each of the parties involved. So I was in one, and others were in one. So was the listening, you know, of addressing everyone in these empathy, buddy calls, and the whole thing got kind of resolved. And I was like, really beautiful. I was just really impressed that they were so willing to stick with it, speak to each person involved in an empathy buddy kind of talked it through, where they got better understanding of why everybody was doing what they were doing. And then it just kind of, it got got resolved, and it just just felt really healthy that they were so willing to, you know, spend the time with, with everyone to kind of talk it out and work it out. So,
yeah, knowing what they need and being able to put words to it. That's very healthy.
Yeah, and with each person involved in it, too. Yeah. So and even to have the, the wherewithal to see that as a value, and the importance of that is is huge.
Yeah, it is. Yeah. Well, I felt like we added to the project, maybe in a little tangential way,
but yeah, well, it's, it's kind of following all the threads where they kind of go with it, I did see think that we were kind of tying it in with the empathy circle, you know, getting some clarity, you know, tying in kind of what we're hearing from others with their criticisms of of empathy and, and I think some really clear definition I don't know if we're capable of doing I don't know if I'm capable of doing it is you know, getting out some That's so clear and easy. Like people aren't going to watch. You know, so far we got like six or eight hours to kind of work it through, but I don't know it's a
mini mini series. Yeah. What Why pay for a Netflix account when you could?
You can just talk to give. Or the next Yeah, miniseries
Yeah. Docu series. That's pretty cool, though. Yeah, I think we have a lot of material already, we could, if we actually sat down and looked at the transcripts of this, we can probably take some stuff out a lot of stuff out already, from what we've said, might take a while. But um, I mean, I think there's certain components that keep coming up in every conversation that is probably starting to concretize into some sort of typology.
Well, that thing is, if that, like, we have our Friday group, there was four of us. Don't I like there is there's other people talking. So I'm able to take notes here, it's like, I'm not able to take notes, because you know, I got to kind of stay present. So I haven't really, I kind of forget what I've been talking about. So
oh, shoot, we weren't doing the transcription.
The transcription is not all that great. And it's no big deal to YouTube will do the transcription just as good as this exists, this does it. So that's not an issue. It's a listening, it's the issue of listening to the transcripts and cleaning it up. And there is a program that's kind of cleans that up a bit more. But that's like a paid program. YouTube will do it for free. But then you got to go through and it's a lot more cleanup to do in it.
How much is that program that was transcribe it's $12 an hour. I wonder how many hours ours would take? Probably several per session, right?
They're doing but hour and a half two hours.
So I I'd be interested in that. But I don't I just don't know how long that that that it takes to transcribe six, almost two hour sessions. So I might be kind of pricey, but that sounds like a good option.
Yeah, well, let's you know, if you want to look around at transcriptions, to see if there's any programs or know of anything that's convenient. There's like I said, this does transcriptions you got to turn it on, though. There is YouTube does transcription, this other transcriptions, but it's a little bit messy, you know, it's, it's not, this one program has its speaker, speaker and then the text and it actually does some capitalizations. And it's actually on, it's online. So the video, it gets put into that program. And there's a transcript Plus, you can go through and play the video, and listen to it and kind of clean it up while you're listening. So so far, that's plus I have a foot pedal, you know, thing that I had done before. And then there's a program that does it. So there's, there's a lot of different programs are always changing. And so I've got to kind of see what we think will be, you know, most effective.
Can we just can we just get copies of what we've done so far from YouTube for now. And then we can see how much cleanup would be required.
Yeah, let me bring this up here. So I have been putting this into so you know, created that website. So I've been trying to take I got a lot of stuff on on MPC definitions, and I'm starting to start organizing it here. So this was our, into this Google website. So we got our team. I just made my own page here. If you want one, we're gonna start taking notes. You can go in there. Yeah, that's really cool. There's typology. Oh, there's typology. There's the cin one, two, if you click on that, there's, I started making some notes about the discussion here. So I've been kind of this is I kind of watch it I starting to, it's best to do it from the get go having a place to put it in just to kind of keep track of it. So it kind of helps organize everything. And then in terms of the meetings. There is I did put it in there and then I did create a Google Doc for each meeting, and it was one with a transcript. So if you guys see that you can poke around. And that's great. Yeah. Cool. And we can put the transcripts in here, but that we have one that I did. Which one? Did we do major meetings?
I didn't realize how much work you'd already done on this.
Yeah, let me just see the closer to 20th.
No meeting?
Oh, no meeting, so it wasn't. So it must have been 20 times or six? Let me see. No. So I'm just kind of in the six ball rolling my spin a six that we're doing that. So.
Oh, try.
There it is. So there's a transcript, you can see it's got timecode and all that it's not the most aesthetically beautiful, you know,
it's pretty good, though. There's still capitalization and everything you didn't edit.
I know that was with their they did. Yeah, they do add capitalization there. So. So yeah, if you just go to the website, you can go, you know, poke around there, see what I've done. I think you have editing permissions to say should be able to. And maybe next week, I'll I'll, I'll find that link to that program. We can take a look at that move and do one, maybe take one transcript and just transcribe it and see how it compares. Maybe do some tests to see. See how effective it is?
Yeah, that's a good idea. Okay, cool. All right. All right. Well, have a good night. Thank you.
Yeah. See you next week. Okay, sounds good. Okay, okay. See you then. Bye. Bye.
