Wesley Granberg-Michaelson - "Modern Ecumenical Work"
1:28PM Jun 25, 2020
Jonathan J. Armstrong
We're very pleased today to be speaking with Dr. Wesley Granberg-Michaelson, Dr. Granberg-Michaelson served as General Secretary of the Reformed Church in America for 17 years from 1994 to 2011. Previously, he held the position of Director of church and society at the World Council of Churches in Geneva. Earlier in his career, he served as the legislative assistant to US Senator Marco Hatfield and then as the managing editor of sojourners magazine when it was founded. He played a leading role in establishing Christian churches together in the USA, and presently helps guide the development of the global Christian forum. Over the course of his ministry. His ecumenical work has taken him to all corners of the world. He is the author of unexpected destinations and evangelical pilgrimage to world Christianity and also leadership from inside Out spirituality and organizational change. While there he researched and wrote his latest book from Time Square to Tim buck to the post Christian West meets the non Western church. Dr. Greenberg Michelson is a graduate of Hope College and Western Theological Seminary, both in Holland, Michigan, and was ordained as a minister of the word and sacrament in the Reformed Church in America in 1984. Dr. Granberg-Michaelson we're very honored to be speaking with you today.
It's a pleasure, Jonathan and I look forward to this. Thank you very much.
Dr. Granberg-Michaelson, this is our inaugural interview in our program Unitas Fidei, so if I can just mention at this point, and explain to our listeners that this programs name only toss feed a is drawn from Ephesians 413, where the Apostle Paul exhorts the church to strive for the quote, unity of the faith. Of course, that's what that expression means. Will it toss feed a in Latin, and it's our hope that this works. Be a venue in which we can bring scholars, Christian leaders, pastors, and theologians from around the world to discuss the contemporary issues in three particular fo Sai that is world missions, ecumenical, and theological education. Sir, Dr. Greenberg Michelson, you served on staff of the World Council of Churches in Geneva, you served as the Secretary of the Reformed Church in America from 1994 to 2011. And you participated in the founding of two ecumenical organizations, Christian churches together in the global Christian forum. If I may ask you, sir, what are your hopes for the Ecumenical Movement in the next decade?
Thank you, Jonathan. And it's wonderful that you're doing this series. I think it's going to make a real contribution. I don't know what is more important, and for World Christianity Today, to find new and appropriate ways of really expressing our unity Christ. And that unity you've quoted from Ephesians. Four. It is, it is. It resonates two out the scriptures are called to be one more call to look together again and again and again. And we'd have to find ways in which to express that freshly, and also powerfully in today's world. My hopes for the Ecumenical Movement today is that we can discover new models that overcome the great divisions that are now present within world Christianity. Those divisions are fragmenting world Christianity more than ever before in our history. They're harming our witness. They are inhibiting our mission. They are destroying our ability to love one another. And we can't accomplish what God has in mind for us if we don't find fresh ways of expressing interest. On our unity with
many divisions could be mentioned. You speak of the divisions dividing global Christianity and certainly there are many there, what comes to your mind when you think of the primary divisions that need to be overcome?
You know, there are many ways of talking about divisions in the church today. I think the most fundamental can be described as a division between what we might call ecumenical expressions of Christianity, and what we might call evangelical and Pentecostal expression. Now, you can you can see this in a variety of ways. I like to talk about this in terms of the churches that are located primarily in the global north, meaning in Europe and the United States, Canada, so forth, historic churches that carry the history and tradition Have a church that that understand our rootedness and Apple stock thing. But churches which, which by and large, are struggling to maintain a relevant witness within their changing cultures, and then the churches of the global south,
the countries of Asia and Africa,
Latin America, churches which today are comprising the majority of Christianity, for the first for the first time, in 1000 years, in 1980, more Christians were living in the global south and the global north. Christianity Today has become a predominantly non Western religion. And the emerging forms of Christianity in the global south, are full of spiritual vitality, are grown, but also can very easily be sectarian, can't be very narrow, can be closed off from the streams of Christian tradition and, and don't really have a strong sense of their belonging to the whole body of Christ. So, so one way of thinking about the major division is this division between the churches that you might call in there in the broader ecumenical tradition, which is simply call them the historic church, the older churches, the churches, again, largely in the global north, that carry forth the the witnessing tradition of the church for centuries. And the younger, emerging churches in the global south, in a fresher Bible are growing, but are largely cut off. And one of our problems is that there are existing the historic ecumenical institutions have difficulty providing the bridges between those two worlds, for reasons we could go into that. So there are lots of ways, Jonathan of of talking about the major divisions. Usually we think of theological divisions, you know, divisions between different theological streams. But in my work and my thinking, I, I rather like to like to think of the division and within the most serious division, as between churches in the north and south. You may call the historic churches, the older churches, and the younger churches, the emerging churches. That that's, I think, a fresh wave of these thinking bar challenge.
Hmm, no. To me, that's fascinating. And I've not heard that broken down quite that way before. So I'm very interested in that model. So let me see if I've got that right. In your view, it may be that these older historical or quote, ecumenical churches, perhaps more have in common with one another Despite their theological differences, then with these younger churches, which also are relatively tightly grouped together or have more in common with one another than they do these historical churches also, despite their theological differences,
that's generally what I'd say, Jonathan. Now, these are big generalizations and you have to you have to go into them and say, Well, okay, what was the Catholic Church fit into this? What about the Orthodox What about evangelicalism, Pentecostal, well, north and etc, etc. There are lots of nuances, but I think it's overall it's a it's a helpful framework in this matches. I mean, I've come up with this, but it's echoed by many other people. The the Atlas of global Christianity, which was written by Kenneth Ross and Todd Johnson and published by Edinboro press was published on the occasion of the world missionary conference in 19. In 2010, celebrating 100 years since Edinboro 1910, the beginning of the modern missionaries. This Atlas is probably the single best source for information about the state of global Christianity today. And they also identify this very division as as, as the most troubling one. They call it a large and growing ditch between to form between two expressions of Christianity Today and, and and yeah, I think I mean I've spent time I was in Jerusalem about a month ago at empower 21. Now growing up about 5000, Pentecostals gathering in Jerusalem over Pentecost and seen the, the expression and the vibrancy of the Pentecostal world and then realizing this world is is largely lives in its own bubble cut off from the ecumenical world, which has its own challenges but lives also in its own ball. So so you know, you have these different streams of Christian Really are living in isolation. Hmm.
I appreciate that response very much. And I know you're speaking from decades of personal intimacy with this Ecumenical Movement that you've been involved in many, many ecumenical talks. And so thank you so much for that, that summary. Dr. granberg Michelson, I'm intrigued by something that you said earlier that we need to find new models to express our Christian unity. It's something that I've been thinking about reflecting on for a little bit. And that is specifically that there are all these divisions that theological and otherwise that divide us historical divisions and so on. And in many ways, that we envision the unity of the church differently. So it's not only these historical differences or theological differences, but we actually as Christians conceive of what the church of what church unity would be in would look like in different terms. One of the primary mods For church unity, his formal relation and formal ecumenical dialogue that if we could, if we could establish these historical churches as formal ecumenical dialogue partners, that would be a major step towards real Christian unity from from your perspective, sir, and I know that you're speaking from experience here, what real games are still yet to be made from formal ecumenical dialogue?
And you've you've touched on something really important, Jonathan, you're right, that the formal, historic economical expressions as we find them, the World Council of Churches and other ecumenical bodies have focusing a couple of ways they've they focused on trying to achieve what they call conciliar unity, unity of the church expressed and councils and and unity around the basic theological issues like baptism, the Eucharist or communion, and in ministry, how we understand ministry in ordination. Now, a lot has been accomplished. Look I come from, I was raised in a strong evangelical background, and I grew up in Park Ridge, Illinois, I listen to help you MBI storytime with Aunt Teresa every every noon as a kid. And and wbI was always in our house. And I grew up in in that kind of rich and clear atmosphere. And we used to say, well, unity is we're all you know, someone else's born again, we have a unity in Christ, we have unity in the spirit. And that's kind of all we have to worry about. And like lots of evangelicals still feel that way. I remember when I went to hope college, college or the Reformed Church in America, and I was talking With my college chaplain and I said to chaplain bill, unity comes, you know, we, it comes through our relationship with Christ and I have this automatic unity in the spirit. And he looked at me said, Well, yes, but this doesn't count. Unless you can see it someplace on the street corner, in your churches, in in the places where you're doing mission. It's, it's, it's not enough to simply say, Oh, we've got a spiritual unity. You've got to make that unity something that the world can see. Now that's that's what the Ecumenical Movement has historically called visible. What they simply mean by that is unity has to be more than a slogan or more than a feeling. It's got to be something that, that we can that we can see that that people from the outside when they look They say, Oh, he's Christians aren't divided. These Christians actually are, are living in a court. They're living together and they're loving one another. Now, we go back to what has the formal economical, cheap, well, first, the Orthodox but the historic churches that claim that are beginning since the time of Christ, the churches, which evangelicals probably know the least about the Orthodox churches, and the historic Protestant churches, coming out of the reformation, they have been brought together in in instrumentalities organizations like the World Council, where where I when I joined as a staff, the World Council, I knew next to nothing about the Orthodox churches, and, and learn they're about their rich tradition, history and theology. What they what they have to offer. And and that's that's one thing that the historic Ecumenical Movement has achieved. Secondly, they've they've achieved or helped churches, overcome divisions around
big theological questions. I'll give you an example.
The churches of the reformed tradition and the churches of the Lutheran tradition, you know, they split apart at the Reformation. And, and they had never formally reconciled themselves over how they understood communion. For instance, pastor in a Reformed Church, couldn't go over and become a pastor in a Lutheran Church. Now, this may sound like small potatoes to some but, you know, we spent 10 years working out a, an agreement with the Lutherans that enabled us to say, these differences in the Reformation they don't come figure them out. We cannot change our pastors, we can recognize one another's communion we can be in in that kind of relationship. Even more than that we had a, we've had a dialogue with the Roman Catholic Church between reformed bodies which been going on for 25 years. Three years ago, we reached agreement around around baptism, in which we said, We now recognize each other's baptism. If someone's baptized in the Roman Catholic Church, and they join the Reformed Church or a Presbyterian church or Lutheran Church, we don't say well, we got to re baptize them. And, and, and now this, this is a, this is a big deal when it comes to a lot of families that are, you know, between Protestant and Catholic parents and their kids and or folks that have left the Catholic Church and have come into one of the one of the Protestant reformed churches, this matters. So so you have to recognize there been some accomplishments here? At the same time, we have to say, well, where? Where are the Pentecostal? Where are the evangelicals? Where are these, this huge growing number of, of believers? In all of these, in all these discussions? Well, they're largely absent. With few exceptions. They haven't been part of what we call these these historic ecumenical steps. And so, you know, in general Jonathan, I'd say, though, the historical the formal Ecumenical Movement, it has achieved some things if we can make a longer list of areas where there's been action together, for instance, against the evils of apartheid, apartheid in South Africa, which I think all Christians now feel wasn't wasn't evil. Well, it was joint action by churches to recommend local bodies have played a very large role in overcoming that sin. So So Yes, there are things that have been accomplished at the same time, I think it's very important to recognize the limitations of where we are today. And the new kinds of challenges that that are going to be difficult for the Cubism, as we thought of it historically, it's going to be difficult to really meet the new challenges that we now face.
Hmm. Dr. Greenberg Michelson, I'm amazed again and again by the the massiveness and the richness and the breadth of the church and some of the comments that you were just making there reminded me freshly of how large God's work on earth is and what a small, small tiny space we individuals occupied in that. Thank you. Dr. Greenberg, Michelson. What is your interpretation of Pope Francis the First's posture towards ecumenical relations with other Christian churches? And do you believe that he'll be able to make any real change?
I think Pope Francis is having a magnificent effect. On overall world Christianity and on economical relations, and I think, you know, you can understand Pope Francis in many ways, I think the most important way to understand this is to realize that for the first time, in 1200 years, we have a pope who was coming from the global south. And he, he is expressing the voice and the aspirations and the perspectives of the majority of Christians in the world who now find themselves in. And that, in my mind cuts across the divisions between Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox. And he's opening up just by the things he says, way, his priorities, his personal style, his hospitality. He's opening up all kinds of new possibilities for relations between Protestants and Catholics. And I think it's hard to, it's hard to underestimate what his what his impact really is when, when when I talk with colleagues throughout the world, in the Protestant church, who, who have long felt a degree of separation that we have distance from, from from, from the Catholics, they now find and import Francis, someone who, who can really respond to and connect to. And one of the things is also that I think is also a part of this channel is that in the global south, the divisions between the church they're there, but they don't cut in the same way as divisions in the global north to the, you know, the the differences that we experience. Within the global south, when churches are faced with common problems, of problems of poverty and economic destruction and of persecution, when they face a common set of problems, that they have a different entry point into what it means to be the church united, the church's Mama. And I think you partly hear that in the voice of, of Pope Francis. So it's hard to say, what might happen. But there's no question in my mind that that Pope Francis is, is opening up new doors that have been closed and you know, my friends who work in a typical office attrition, unity, which is their official ecumenical office there, they all feel like they're, they're playing catch up. You know, they're wondering what is this Pope could do next. So we've got to catch up to instead of all how can we kind of push things along. So the dynamic has really changed
Hmm. practical question. Dr. Greenberg Michelson. How would you advise that? people stay up on news coming from the Vatican or statements from Pope Francis? Good news is hard to come by these days. What are your preferred sources?
It's a very good question. Yeah, there are there are two or three sources that I that I tend to look at. You can go to the Pew Research Foundation and find them online. The Pew foundation it's a it's a it's an objective, non sectarian group that does research on a variety of subjects, including religion. They have a daily stream on religion in the news, and and they will any you don't have to pay for it. It's free. You ask for their daily report on religion. They have several different categories. But as for the Daily Report, Which, and you'll get every day, six to eight to 10 articles about events happening in, in the world affecting affecting religion, especially Christianity. And many of those will also focus on on Pope Francis. And that's that that's I think, again, that's an objective source. It's not biased one way or another and, and it allows you to pick up things that are that are happening. You could also in terms of Pope Francis, his own statements and stuff, you can go right to the Vatican website and find those translated into a variety of languages. But, but I find, personally, you know, each day I'll read the Pew religion report and I'll that will alert me to articles that I think I should look at and maybe get caught up.
That's very helpful. Thank you for sharing that, sir. Dr. Greenberg Michelson. In your view, is there any reasonable promise for the conciliar movement? And what I mean by that term conciliar movement is the hope that a new Ecumenical Council might bring real invisible unity to the Christian church.
Well, you know, that has been a longtime dream.
A dream that just as the church gathered and consoles, like at nicea, going back, of course, all the way to the console Jerusalem recorded an X 15. That that's where the whole conciliar model and language really comes from. And, and, and from time to time there have been hopes that a Couldn't we have another console of that sort. It's particularly been a discussion between the Orthodox and the Catholic and then historic Protestants from groups like the World Council. Now That's such a huge deal, especially between the Orthodox and the Catholic, that it would still seem too many like a, like a distant dream. Although you feel like we could be getting closer to that you'll, I think you're going to see that the Pope Francis is going to meet probably within the next year with the patriarch of the Western Orthodox Church, that will be a huge deal because that's been a very deep division. There have been growing, growing up acts of reconciliation, between between the Catholic and the Orthodox, even though those face still serious problems. But I'd say that, that that dream is still alive, but again, who's talking about that? Well, the people who are talking about that are basically churches that reflect the what I said earlier, the older churches but the church Churches of the global north, the churches that are steeped in the tradition, and that understand that we all should be one. The churches from the global south, the new emerging churches there, they barely know about those discussions and our, our, you know, wouldn't find much direct relationship to so if you if you were really going to dream about some Council, some some some gathering, which which some of us do from time to time in groups like the global Christian forum, we, you know, you'd have to think of it in a far different way in a far broader way that could could bring together the leadership of all the streams of world Christian. That's a far deeper challenge. And I'd say that's a distant dream, but I think it's a dream we have to keep alive.
Thank you. Dr. granberg. Michelson, if I can ask you a pastoral question. May Economically minded Christians partake of the Eucharist when visiting a church who's teaching on the sacraments is different than their own. What would you say to pastors or priests from different denominations who wish to hold an inter communion service against the recommendation of their denominational superiors?
Well, I suppose that's a question that's easier for me to answer now that I'm no longer a general secretary of my denomination. I, I like to call this stealing Jesus.
In other words, you know, you go to
I'm on a I go to a Catholic monastery and retreat, and they'll have Eucharist every day. And I know that the local Bishop will have a little note posted someplace saying it is the understanding of the Catholic Church that only those who are members of the couch or participate in communion. I remember once when I first went to them A storage for a retreat like that. I saw the snow tonight. And I mentioned something to the guests master. And he just smiled at me said, Well, you know, the bishop asked that we put that note up, look
around here. We don't think that Jesus just served Catholics.
And what you what you find is very interesting. What you find is that a grassroots local settings, there's, there's actually often kind of a readiness to, to sort of practice Don't Ask, Don't Tell, you know, you, you, you if you come and take me in here, we're not going to tell anyone that you're not a Catholic. In this case, for instance, if if you're not telling and in some, in some places, it's more it's really more overt like that. There Frank There, there is at all levels around these issues like, like communion. There's growing ecclesiastical distributions at at, at local levels, because people, increasingly people just don't get it. They don't understand. I remember I'll tell you
the funeral of bowl Biden, the son of Joe Biden, the Vice President, my wife and I were watching this on television, and it when in the Biden's are very devout Catholics. So this funeral was held in the Catholic Church. And President Obama came to give the eulogy. And the funeral service was a was a full Catholic mass with community
So the president who is a Christian,
a Protestant, who's there with his family. So when it came to Communion, the Presiding Bishop said that we invite all of you to come forward. And if you're not able to partake, just put your hands like this and ask for bless. And so I watched the president and Michelle and their two girls with other policies come forward in the line. And as they came to receive the body in the blood of Christ, they put their hands like this, and the priests gave them a muscle.
And I simply thought, this is a travesty.
How, how can we continue to give a witness to the world we're at the most central place of receiving the body and blood of Christ. saying we really partake in our fellowship with one another. The closer we close our hands and arms and say, No, we can't do this. Now, I could give you all the Catholic theological rationale for how this is true. It's the same rationale that's true for the Missouri Synod. And it's the same rationale is true for for many Protestant churches, so I don't want to single out the Catholics. There's a whole theology around what we call close can and I simply don't think it makes sense. I, I remember being with Emilio castable, the general secretary of the world console, who himself was a he was an evangelical from Uruguay, social justice guy. He believed passionately in trying to find a breakthrough. And he said to me, when I go to my Catholic brothers and sisters, I, I don't even ask them that they recognize In my church, it will be the Methodist Church of your I won't. I don't insist that they recognize that in my community. This is a real expression of Christ's body what I simply want them to recognize that I see in their church, the real presence of Christ's body that this is that in this communion I really am partaking in, in our common fellowship in Christ, despite all the other theological, ethical, other differences. So I mean, my my pastoral advice today is, I mean, be sensitive. Don't Don't embarrass people. But look for those spaces of, of hospitality. Eucharistic hospitality we need to be experiencing
thank you so much. Thank you so much for that reflection. Dr. grande Michaelson, many of these questions that have been asking the under text, if you will, is really I'm seeking for counsel on where the engine of Christian unity might lie. Is it a council is an inter communion? Where could we hope to see real ecumenical motion? In your view, sir, what is the responsibility of Christian universities and seminaries in promoting Christian unity?
That's, that's great, Jonathan.
Christian seminaries and universities are unique laboratories. In in most all, Christian universities and seminaries today, you find an increasing number of those who come from a variety of Christian backgrounds. I mean, you know, you find this at Fuller Seminary and I know you find this and Moody Bible. You find this at Princeton seminary. You find this at Wheaton College. You find this at at Westmont, you find this at Hope College. You know, growing numbers of Catholics, growing numbers of those from a variety of different church backgrounds and growing numbers of international students who come representing voices of Christianity shaped by the South. Now, when you're in these kinds of settings, I think it's urgent, and really a priority that that forms of fellowship be created, that allow those who come from these different backgrounds, to share their own stories of their journey with Christ, and to and to simply open one another up to the to one another's pilgrimage of Christ. And then because you're within a university and or seminary, you're also able to reflect On the historical reasons for divisions, and what reasons really might continue to divide us, or or, or reasons that we might be able to set aside, because we're at a place where we're able to reflect and study. And, and also a place where, you know, mean seminaries and Christian colleges. They want to nurture a Christian community in one way or another. Well, how do you do that? And in my experience, you you'll begin by nurturing Christian community by being in the group or share your stories of maturity and are willing to begin to share your life. That has to be the foundation. And I think, I think in universities and seminaries today, that also should be the starting point and it's a it's a unique opportunity. I'm
very grateful for that set of recommendations and encouragement. Dr. Greenberg, Michelson. We're very, very grateful for your time if I could ask one conclusion Question. And and that is sort of the the open ended question, what is Christian unity? And how would we know if it had been accomplished or if it were being lived out? Also, lastly, how do we work towards that Christian unity that you envision to be the true form of Christian unity for the church?
I knew that you were going to
wonder about this. Ask about this. My friend, Larry Miller, is the secretary of the global Christian forum. And it's the it's the ecumenical initiative that I think holds the most promise right now that I'm very attracted to. We were together at in Korea, and I know this is going to college and Korea. We were together in May at the Jeju forum in Korea. This was a forum Around the future of world Christianity, and it was called by the pastor's of the three largest churches, mega churches and saw the Newman's own church and yodo Full Gospel and the Methodist Church. So that in itself was in there he gave a paper there. And in one part, he talked about how we have these different ideas of emoji. And I just want to read part, we have we think of visible unity, unity in the spirit of unity and unity and sacramental life unity and community organic unity instruction, you know, to get reconciled diversity, consider unity, unity in Scripture and salvation, unity and mission unity in service unity and evangelism, unity and justice and peace, unity and justice in discipleship and even more recently, Pope Francis talking about the unity in the blog before into the Unity from persecuted Christians. They're part of the reality today is that we have this variety of ideas about what yearning itself is. And that and that is partly what makes this discussion so difficult. Now, where do you start? I think, in my experience, you don't start at points of theological differences. You don't start by saying, Here's, you know, we have these different ideas of baptism, we have these different ideas of how we understand to you, or whatever theological gospel, there is really space for that kind of theological dialogue. But I don't think that's the starting point. I also don't think you simply start at the point of service, or or witness that's also very important of working together, like I mentioned around issues of apartheid or around the persecuted church or around climate change or you could find great ecumenical coming together when you say, Well, you know, doctrine divides but service unites that that was an old slogan. But I don't think that's I think there's plenty of room for that. But I don't think that is going to be the way that's that that's finally going to push us forward. I think
today, we have to start around
the unity in fellowship, sharing the stories of our pilgrimage with Jesus. it the most, most important thing to do is to establish new basis of trust and of understanding by by sharing together in why in very wide, diverse settings, what our journey together in Jesus means. Now,
this isn't just hypothetical. This is what
we're doing in the world. Well Christian form, we will gather people from all over the world. And you'll have an Orthodox priest from Greece. So you'll have a woman Bishop in the in the church and candidate you have a Pentecostal leader from Africa. And you'll have a Roman Catholic bishop from Latin America and an evangelical leader
from Indonesia. And
in every meeting before we do anything else, we sit in a circle. And we ask each person to begin by simply sharing their own journey with Jesus Christ. What is just simply tell how God has led you and brought you to where you are now. Sometimes this takes a whole day, because this isn't three minutes. This is giving a person you know 10 1520 minutes to really share their story.
By the time you finish,
you have created an atmosphere of trust,
an atmosphere of,
of fellowship that overcomes the stereotypes you had. an Orthodox priest in Greece no longer looks quite the same way at a Pentecostal evangelical from Ghana. huge differences are there. But suddenly there's a there's a new basis for trust and for understanding that, indeed, we are sharing in a common faith in weeks, we can hear this, we can experience this. I think that's, that's what people hunger for now. And then with that can come Well, we can pray together. Well, we can even figure out how do we worship together as complex as that thing. And then we can say, Okay, what issues do we need to talk About what issues in the world do we need to confront together? You know, what, what common word might we say? But you can't get to those points unless you first establish a basis of true New Testament coin in the basis of a sense that beyond our divisions, structurally, we can declare and we control that we really do belong to one another. And this isn't just, it's not just a spiritual idea. we're demonstrating this in real and concrete ways. I think those those are the ways forward that I that I find some hope.
Factor granberg Michael, some. We're deeply grateful that you'd share your passion and experience with us concerning the Ecumenical Movement to these questions. Thank you so much. We've had as our guest today, Dr. Wesley granberg, Michaelson, former general secretary of the Reformed Church in America and also author most recently of from Times Square to Tim buck to the post Christian West with the non Western church. Thank you so much for sharing your morning with us, sir.
Thank you, Jonathan. appreciate this.